There is a fundamental minimum amount of energy needed to desalinate: you can't take less energy to do it,than you could gain back (from osmotic pressure) if you allowed the desalinated water to expand a cylinder containing the residual brine. This is large. This paper is a thermal method, so it doesn't have an electricity input, but to justify their efficiency claim, they should really compare against what you could do by using the same surface area for solar panels, driving a conventional setup. My (limited) understanding is that conventional reverse osmosis is not far from the theoretical optimum, energy-wise, the main difficulties being operational (the membranes need declogging). And of course RO is more expensive than rain.
This paper is interesting, however, in directly producing crystalline salt, which is lower volume than brine and easier to dispose of, maybe even valuable.
Focusing on pure energy efficiency might be missing the point of economic efficiency.
An RO desalination plant needs electric energy to drive the pumps, which might be generated by panels which are 15-20% efficient. So, if you can have cheap thermal desalination panels, they come out ahead even if 6x less energy eficient, you avoid the whole expensive and fragile desalination plant and you gain a low skill, distributed setup.
I always thought that if separating water and salt were easy, our bodies would have evolved to do it so that we'd be able to drink sea water and be fine. It must have been so expensive that searching for fresh water was worth it or there were plenty of fresh water that it was never a evolutionary pressure. Evolving kidneys capable of concentrating urine beyond 3 something percent concentration (sea water) perhaps required a massive restructuring of our internal organs and a huge constant energy expenditure, so we kept seeking fresh water.
This is a weird angle I think? Desalination brine is a real problem, so if you can eliminate that then efficiency is less of an issue (especially given that desalination plants are often in places with a lot of sunlight!).
You don't want to be super duper inefficient but "no waste that has to be dumped back out" feels really big to me
They are talking about lithium recovery, but there is a less exotic byproduct I'm interested in. One tonne (≈ 1 m^3) of seawater contains about 1.3 kilograms of magnesium, equivalent to about 4 kg of magnesite ore. Typical desal prices are on the order of $1 per tonne. Magnesite ore goes for about $100 per tonne, so the crude magnesium in a tonne of seawater is worth about $0.40, which could account for a substantial fraction of the desalination cost. (These numbers are very rough.)
Now you ask: why don't we just recover magnesium from brines if it's so great? Magnesium recovery from seawater isn't that easy: typically you have to treat it with some kind of alkali (often Ca(OH)2), so the cost is dominated by the extraction process (your alkali is consumed!), and you're competing with a pretty cheap ore. But if you have a solid byproduct, instead of a liquid, the options for magnesium recovery might be a lot more efficient, potentially offsetting the cost.
The fourth-most-prevalent ion, sulfate, might also be interesting, at least in a hypothetical post-petroleum future where sulfur as a byproduct of fossil fuel extraction is no longer "free". Sulfate is also annoying to extract from seawater, but again if we have a solid, the rules change.
As for the "table" salt itself, I think we'd quickly saturate (!) the market.
They're still at lab scale in glass. They haven't built a usable system, even a small one. The big claim here is that it doesn't clog; capillary action moves the salt out of the active area to another area, where some yet to be developed mechanism removes it. That needs to be demonstrated.
If they can come up with something that runs for years without clogging or replacing the active material, that's a real advance.
Laser surface preparation is known.[2] It's useful for roughening smooth surfaces in a very structured way, in preparation for painting. The result is a smooth paint surface. If you sandblast to roughen, the first paint layer is somewhat irregular. Then you need to sand and paint again to get a smooth surface. Laser roughening has been tried for auto painting, but didn't go mainstream. A good question here is whether commercial laser surface prep systems can make the material this new process uses.
So crazy question: take a dehumidifier, attach some solar panels, and deploy at scale for non-potable water suitable for crop irrigation anywhere that isn't a desert. Does it work? And if not, why?
Yield depends on humidity, which varies according to region and season.
It also requires more infrastructure to get yield. In theory all you'd need to have is these etched metal plates, a transparent dome and a source of briny water. (and a cleaning mechanism)
The etched plates creates 100% humidity (probably more as it'll condense out)
After looking at the paper, this looks like the core result:
“We collected a total of 9.3 g freshwater along with 0.343 g of sea salt from the ABF-STIC with a 9 cm2 surface area over the course of 9 hours. This is equivalent to generating 10.33 liters m−2 of freshwater and 0.38 kg m−2 of sea salt per day. The salinity of the desalinated water is found well below the WHO and EPA standards for safe drinking water.”
However the enclosure system required looks rather complicated and might be sensitive to external temperature (maybe a solar PV-powered cooling loop would help) and I imagine the cost-per-square-meter of the material is rather high, so this looks more like something for emergency response situations or maybe a desal system for a mega-yacht. If it could be scaled the idea is interesting, maybe as lithium separation from concentrated geological brines?
you can now extract (like mining) minerals from the ocean, sounds kind of dangerous for the ecosystem maybe? making it profitable to extract magnesium, lithium, salt... we can probably guess how this story goes.
If true then this might be indeed a game changer, but numerous
academic publications turned out to be unfit for upscaling.
Who all has access to a femto laser? As far as I know these are
all patented, and most of those patents (or at the least companies
with rights to production) are in the USA, according to a professor
who told us so some years ago in university (in central Europe, but
he is quite old already, so I am not sure if his information was 100%
up to date; but otherwise I do not doubt the validity of his claim
made). So someone is going to milk rather than help. Will be interesting
to see what happens to that in some years. My current guesstimate is
that nothing will really happen or change.
Always wondered why the coast of the Red Sea isn't littered with channels which get flooded with seawater, which then evpporate into glassed ceilings; creating freshwater, and leaving behind salts for mining.
Combined with some mangrove farms, surely desert coasts are able to support more life.
Wonder if this is scalable tech, and how quickly it can 'process' water. I guess if they're combined with transparent solar panels, it could be quite an epic tech.
I believe the most efficient method to turn "ocean water into drinking water" is called "rain". We just need to better collect and transport the output of what is effectively the world's biggest solar-powered desalinator.
36 comments
[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 53.8 ms ] threadhttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48349507
> The brine byproduct wreaks havoc on sea life when it’s deposited back into the ocean by raising the salt level and lowering oxygen in the water.
Managing return of concentrated brine should be entirely tractable in the literal ocean.
This paper is interesting, however, in directly producing crystalline salt, which is lower volume than brine and easier to dispose of, maybe even valuable.
An RO desalination plant needs electric energy to drive the pumps, which might be generated by panels which are 15-20% efficient. So, if you can have cheap thermal desalination panels, they come out ahead even if 6x less energy eficient, you avoid the whole expensive and fragile desalination plant and you gain a low skill, distributed setup.
"Desalination system could produce freshwater that is cheaper than tap water" (2023) https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/1002811
ScholarlyArticle: "Highly efficient and salt rejecting solar evaporation via a wick-free confined water layer" (2022) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-28457-8
"Solar-powered system offers a route to inexpensive desalination" (2022) https://news.mit.edu/2022/solar-desalination-system-inexpens...
ps. I have no clue what I'm talking about
You don't want to be super duper inefficient but "no waste that has to be dumped back out" feels really big to me
...except for the huge piles of salt.
If the salt was not waste, surely people would already be extracting it from the brine and the existing methods would also be "without waste".
Totally underrated area for academic pursuits.
Now you ask: why don't we just recover magnesium from brines if it's so great? Magnesium recovery from seawater isn't that easy: typically you have to treat it with some kind of alkali (often Ca(OH)2), so the cost is dominated by the extraction process (your alkali is consumed!), and you're competing with a pretty cheap ore. But if you have a solid byproduct, instead of a liquid, the options for magnesium recovery might be a lot more efficient, potentially offsetting the cost.
The fourth-most-prevalent ion, sulfate, might also be interesting, at least in a hypothetical post-petroleum future where sulfur as a byproduct of fossil fuel extraction is no longer "free". Sulfate is also annoying to extract from seawater, but again if we have a solid, the rules change.
As for the "table" salt itself, I think we'd quickly saturate (!) the market.
They're still at lab scale in glass. They haven't built a usable system, even a small one. The big claim here is that it doesn't clog; capillary action moves the salt out of the active area to another area, where some yet to be developed mechanism removes it. That needs to be demonstrated. If they can come up with something that runs for years without clogging or replacing the active material, that's a real advance.
Laser surface preparation is known.[2] It's useful for roughening smooth surfaces in a very structured way, in preparation for painting. The result is a smooth paint surface. If you sandblast to roughen, the first paint layer is somewhat irregular. Then you need to sand and paint again to get a smooth surface. Laser roughening has been tried for auto painting, but didn't go mainstream. A good question here is whether commercial laser surface prep systems can make the material this new process uses.
[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41377-026-02315-4
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKYOglHYo_Y
It also requires more infrastructure to get yield. In theory all you'd need to have is these etched metal plates, a transparent dome and a source of briny water. (and a cleaning mechanism)
The etched plates creates 100% humidity (probably more as it'll condense out)
“We collected a total of 9.3 g freshwater along with 0.343 g of sea salt from the ABF-STIC with a 9 cm2 surface area over the course of 9 hours. This is equivalent to generating 10.33 liters m−2 of freshwater and 0.38 kg m−2 of sea salt per day. The salinity of the desalinated water is found well below the WHO and EPA standards for safe drinking water.”
However the enclosure system required looks rather complicated and might be sensitive to external temperature (maybe a solar PV-powered cooling loop would help) and I imagine the cost-per-square-meter of the material is rather high, so this looks more like something for emergency response situations or maybe a desal system for a mega-yacht. If it could be scaled the idea is interesting, maybe as lithium separation from concentrated geological brines?
Brutal. 𖤐 \m/ 𖤐
i'm hoping it doesn't scale, honestly.
Who all has access to a femto laser? As far as I know these are all patented, and most of those patents (or at the least companies with rights to production) are in the USA, according to a professor who told us so some years ago in university (in central Europe, but he is quite old already, so I am not sure if his information was 100% up to date; but otherwise I do not doubt the validity of his claim made). So someone is going to milk rather than help. Will be interesting to see what happens to that in some years. My current guesstimate is that nothing will really happen or change.
Sand -> Glass -> heated saltwater -> freshwater + minerals -> ??? -> profit?
Combined with some mangrove farms, surely desert coasts are able to support more life.
Wonder if this is scalable tech, and how quickly it can 'process' water. I guess if they're combined with transparent solar panels, it could be quite an epic tech.
The new system replaces the earlier version that used specially engineered death metal.
I suppose you could water down the ocean water it’ll was drinkable, or like just add half a teaspoon of sea water to a cup or drinking water.
Buy all work done eventually decades in to waste heat.
[1] https://news.mit.edu/2024/how-light-can-vaporize-water-witho...