I love this guy (Jada)! Once again showing that Flash, when used correctly, can create unrivaled experiences on the web. Also of note is the Perfect Strangers game:
http://nothingsgonnastopmenow.com/
I hit start and 90% of the time nothing happens. The other 10% of the time, Flash crashes.
I'm using Chrome stable on Ubuntu 12.04. I have no extensions besides Adblock Plus. This is the only page I've encountered that crashes Flash on my computer.
Everything is normal..(also have AB+ and ghostery) worth mentioning that on checking it is v20 of chromium (ie from the software center), v23 is apparently the current stable chrome version.. are you using that?
My ex-gf always used to say Skrillex sounded like videogame music to her.. I was like "whatever, you don't GET it", but I stand corrected. Should send her some "I'm sorry you were kinda right" chocolates.
This is really awesome, definitely a good entrant in the "video games are art" category.
I do wish it wasn't Flash though. Not that I have anything against Flash itself when used the right way, but I feel like it's really hard to "own" a Flash game.
Unlike, say, iOS apps that you can download and come back to 6 months later, Flash games are a lot more of a flash in the pan (sorry…) and I think it's a shame in cases like this where the end result is so great and so much work obviously went into it.
Very cool concept and enjoyable game, but it caused the Iceweasel 'plugin-container' on my laptop to use over 200% CPU, which I'm guessing is related to the circuit breaker flipping (twice). Running Crunchbang 11 on a Dell Latitude E6410...
Edit: And took me from somewhere near 100% battery to 67%. Crazy
I don't think you're missing anything, it's simply a matter of personal taste. I don't enjoy Skrillex either (dubstep to me is artists like Burial) but I can see why his more muscular approach might appeal to the American crowd.
Obviously every song is in some way building on other previous works, but there are degrees of originality and contribution above and beyond the building blocks that a song draws from. Some songs seem to be just "beautiful component" + "harmonious other beautiful component" = "pleasant synthesis resulting in more beauty", while others seem to be "beautiful component" + "rotting vegetables" = "pretty rotting vegetables"...
The correct term for what you refer to as "american dubstep" is actually Brostep.
Dubstep was invented in Europe in the 90s and came out of the early techno scene. The shit these douches are making in California is completely unrelated.
I really hate to be a "genre pedant", but Dubstep is a descendant of garage, dub, drum and bass and a few other styles from the very late 90s early 00s in England. "Early techno" is Detroit in the 80s.
If you're correcting someone on nomenclature please be more accurate, and if you're trolling, please be funnier.
Dubstep proper is a near direct descendant of dub techno, pioneered in Berlin in the early 90s, following in the footsteps of Detroit techno from the 80s and the 2-step and acid house coming out of the UK and Chicago.
I live down the street from Hardwax, for fuck's sake.
As much as there is an aesthetic link between the berlin sound and early dubstep, the croydon lot weren't listening to lots of basic channel and stuff at the time.
The UK scene has its own independent subbass heritage. People in the london scene at least aren't generally that aware of what comes out of europe, especially back in the web 1.0 era we're talking about.
There are too many electronic music genres. A slight change to the timing of the drums or the way vocal samples are used should not propel a track into a completely different genre. Does all this come about because people are ultra specific about what they will dance to?
It comes about because the genre names describe the scene more than the music. There may be only relatively small (to an outsider) aesthetic differences between, say, progressive house and UKG, if you go to raves where each is played you will find the people playing and dancing to it are completely different, with almost no crossover. The racial makeup will be different, the age, social class, the drugs being used, the clothes worn.
That's why people differentiate dance music so carefully. When people talk about dubstep they aren't talking about a halfstep drumloop and a falling 808, they're talking about Third Base, Plastic People, Big Apple, Music House and Red Stripe. When people talk about berlin techno they're not just talking about 909s on the up and white noise filter bleeps, they're talking about Hardwax, Berghain and D&M.
True, although a certain amount of isolationism is needed to fully develop creative ideas. Really good new art is typically utterly alienating to everyone except you and your associates, and it needs to stay that way long enough so that you can explore its potential before outsiders are let in and the inevitable compromise and dilution begins.
The internet has kindof put a top to this and it's a shame. The creative engine of the london underground which produced dubstep and everything before it is chasing its own tail right now, devoid of new ideas, and it's partly for this reason IMO.
I see him as part of the first wave of the new pop-electronic which I think will be only more popular through this decade. It's certainly not typical traditional electronic music, so no, you aren't missing anything.
Hehe - I'm just de opposite :) Not a fan of electronic music at all - but can't stop listening to Skrillex :-) So I guess they're not that related after all :-p
I've been listening to electronic music for, at some level, my whole life, and I feel ashamed to say I like brostep. I don't think it's fair to call it dubstep, but it has to be accepted on its own terms.
"That's the worst turnip I've ever tasted!"
"Sir, that's a daikon radish."
"Well, then, it's not bad then."
I think a lot of it has to do with expectation. I find brostep good cleaning music, actually -- the quick change of pace works for it. I also find a bit of emotional release from it -- there's something in the contrast for me, at least.
But nobody I've ever met likes every type of music. :)
Yeah, a lot of the controversy seems to be (as ever) over genre classification. I hadn't really thought about it before, but I think I mentally file Skrillex-style music near "industrial dance" and some of the glitchier kinds of EBM.
I didn't really get it either until I went to a club and danced to it. I didn't even know how, I just copied what people were doing, picking up on the ambiance of the place and what fun people were having. By the time the place closed, I was having so much fun I didn't want it to end. It's probably true with all types of music, that the context in which you experience it will create the associations that determine whether you will like it or not.
I just upvoted something done with flash on hn for the first time ever. The zelda 1 esque levels were sheer genius. I would actually dig playing an entire game with that perspective/style.
Out of curiosity have you played the Binding of Isaac? It's a zelda-esque game using short gameplay/permadeath + lots of random elements. Although may be windows only I don't recall.
Yeah I knew it was on steam, but not everything on steam is available for mac. Haven't played my copy in a while to look and see what OSes it is on (plus I own nothing made by apple)
I totally get the theme but I can't help getting nervous goosebumps from the artifacts - I feel like I have to reset the display cable or blow into the cartridge! Well done.
What I find perhaps most fascinating about this is that it's almost certainly an advertisement (note the iTunes link at the end of the game, and the tagline at the bottom that the creator makes 'advergames'). If it is, in fact, an advergame, it's awesome to see folks like Skrillex (and/or Skrillex's marketing folks) willing to build something so cool and of legitimate artistic value to try to build up viral buzz.
I was going to say that Skrillex is signed to deadmau5's (of Something Awful fame) label mau5trap, but that appears to no longer be the case. Skrillex is now with Atlantic, which is doubly impressive if they had anything to do with it.
Skrillex has a longstanding deal w/ Atlantic leftover from his earlier band From First to Last. His label OWSLA is an imprint on Big Beat, which itself is a subsidiary of Atlantic. The cost of this was probably shared between Big Beat / OWSLA, Atlantic, and the artist himself (or his management team Blood Company). These sorts of deals get pretty convoluted when major labels are involved.
Either way, a very cool interactive experience. The only criticism I have is that they completely ignored mobile/tablet/non-Flash -- it's a Flash-based game, but if you visit the site on a non-Flash device you don't even get an alternate "Sorry, your device is not supported" message.
He was a longtime goon. The name "deadmau5" actually came from the SA IRC chatrooms, where he posted pictures of a dead mouse he found in his computer and was referred to as "that dead mouse guy". The chatroom had an 8 character max for nicks, so "dead mouse" became "deadmau5".
I brought it up because I'd have an easier time seeing a label run by an ex-goon engaging in this kind of marketing, as opposed to one like Atlantic.
It is indeed an advergame. The page source refers to http://jasonoda.com/ . The author, Jason Oda, claims to be in the advergaming business and lists various viral games, like perfect strangers, as well as facebook games and the like in his credits. The about section lists a pretty impressive client portfolio, actually.
> Chex Quest, made by Digital Café, is a total conversion of The Ultimate Doom. It was released in boxes of Chex Cereal in 1996, becoming the first game to be included in a cereal box. When it was released, it increased sales by over 200%. It then went on to win both the Golden Reggie Award for Promotional Achievement, and the Silver EFFIE Award for Advertising Effectiveness.
I had not heard about this as a kid growing up but it would have definitely made me buy the cereal. In fact I'm off to see if I can find the game now somewhere.
"Here's the deal, folks. You do a commercial - you're off the artistic roll call, forever. End of story. Okay? You're another whore at the capitalist gang bang and if you do a commercial, there's a price on your head. Everything you say is suspect and every word that comes out of your mouth is now like a turd falling into my drink."
For those of us who aren't raging anti capitalists, it's fairly obvious that something can have artistic merit and be designed to promote something. If you have an actual argument to the contrary that extends beyond "The fuck?", it'd be great to hear it. Quoting a comedian is not really an argument.
"it's fairly obvious that something can have artistic merit and be designed to promote something"
doesn't constitute an argument either, does it. So there's not really anything there to argue against; just an assertion. Meanwhile, to me it's "fairly obvious" that this ain't art, and therefore "the fuck" is perfectly sufficient.
"Quoting a comedian is not really an argument."
Oh yeah, because a comedian is by definition funny, and not ever insightful.
Good thing people don't react in a butthurt, predictable fashion, or anything. Haha.
> Good thing people don't react in a butthurt, predictable fashion, or anything.
Kinda spiking the irony meter here. You asserted that there's no artistic value and, what, expected people to accept that as a valuable part of the conversation?
If your definition of art is only that made with no profit of the artist in mind then your definition excludes a vast amount of what most of the world considers art.
Commercial music? Artists who make a living selling their work? Commissioned pieces? Art doesn't have to be produced by the idle rich and the impoverished and starving. It's hard to define art precisely, but your definition seems to be at odds with the generally accepted one.
I reflect on that Bill Hicks rant occasionally as I get older and wiser.
It was stirring and idealistic when I was in my 20's.
However over the years my instinctive distrust of the world of commerce diminishes as I realise that humans live, swim and breath in commerce. It was here before art-with-a-capital-A and it will outlive it.
The other thing to remember is that art-with-a-capital-A was largely an invention of the Romantic movement. Artist-as-lone-hero and all that. It's not an eternal truth and in fact it creates a fictional view of the Artist that I distrust more over time.
"humans live, swim and breath in commerce. It was here before art-with-a-capital-A and it will outlive it."
Who is talking about commerce? It's about using emotion to lead people to make irrational choices. If you need rice and I farm rice, and I sell you some rice, that's commerce. It has however NOTHING to do with anything Bill Hicks ever ranted about. So don't flatter yourself I'd say, your insight isn't really one.
"The other thing to remember is that art-with-a-capital-A was largely an invention of the Romantic movement"
The idea that washing your hands is a great idea for doctors and in general is also fairly recent; so?
"in fact it creates a fictional view of the Artist"
No, it simply raised the bar. How can it be fictional if people existed and exist that fit the description? That's just wishful thinking on your part so you don't feel too bad for going back to sleep.
It's fictional because the idealism falls apart when you realize you have to find food and shelter somewhere, which costs money. Very few aspiring artists are independently wealthy. Doing a commercial is just another job. If you did a commercial advertising your art gallery would you lose all credibility as an artist? What is the difference between a commercial and a flyer? Do bands who advertise their shows forfeit their claim to be artists? I would also add that it isn't safe to assume someone is trustworthy just because they haven't done any commercials.
You also make the claim that all advertising is about trying to make people make irrational choices. But if I post a billboard that says "Come try our pancakes!", am I really trying to make you behave irrationally?
There is certainly plenty of "bad" advertising, and campaigns that artists would be better off not associating themselves with, but the blanket statement just doesn't fit.
This is a lot more like a music video than an ad for McDonald's. It's more of a complementary art form, to expose you to the original in a different medium.
His point is that we (as a society) definitely consider works by Michelangelo (e.g. the Sistine Chapel) to be _definitive_ works of art, despite the fact that they were sponsored. It's a direct refutation of the standpoint that art and commercially-motivated work are entirely separate.
If an individual disagrees with that view of "society", and I agree with that individual, then just repeating that view of society doesn't really refute anything. It does however explain this deluge of people making themselves known to disagree with something they don't even understand.
Fair enough. Referencing back to your original comment, if you don't believe any of work from the above names to have artistic value, then we're sufficiently far apart on the definition of the term that there's not really much more point discussing.
Does the game make you feel? Then it has artistic value.
I felt something playing this game. It has surprisingly good ambiance and seeing a bunch of pixel characters who have accepted their fate and were waiting for death, to me, gave it a level of emotional attachment I did not expect after I read the tag 'advergame'.
One thing you have to realize is that it's very hard to make games nowadays without some kind of income. If you are lucky, you only have to slum it for a few years and then you make a hit on the side. But more often, you have to do whatever it takes, unless you are willing to keep your day job.
I actually still agree with the Bill Hicks quote, but I feel there is some wiggle room when what is produced is actually a game, and in the end, does not fit the constraint of standard advertising.
IMO if more advertising were like this, the world would be a better place, and Bill Hicks would have been less angry.
And here I will quote Tool's Eulogy, which was about Bill Hicks, if you didn't know:
"He had a voice so strong and loud and I
Swallowed his facade cuz I'm so
Eager to identify with
Someone above the ground,
Someone who seemed to feel the same,
Someone prepared to lead the way, with
Someone who would die for me."
Just because a voice is loud and you agree with it, doesn't necessarily mean that it is entirely correct. I love the shit out of Bill Hicks and I still feel the world would be a better place if he had lived long enough to foster the change he felt he needed. But I still don't feel his quote applies to this game.
Well, there's many ways to mean the word "art" or "artist", aren't there. Of course something that is skillfully crafted is art "on some level".
On another, the motivation and goal of the creation, at least to me, outweighs such considerations by order of magnitude. And on that level I don't consider that, or much anything really, "art" by any stretch of my imagination.
Which means yes, I would consider the exact same thing art or not art depending on by whom, why and how it was created and presented.
That may not be fair, but it's my firm opinion anyway. Yeah yeah, people gotta eat. I know that. (I do think that technically even that is a decision, but I'll accept that in this in context.) But what people do NOT "absolutely have to" is to consider themselves as artists, or to be considered by me as such. They'll have to settle with mediocre.
Tool's "Eulogy" wasn't about Bill Hicks. They actually quite liked the guy, put his face in their albums, and quoted him frequently in a positive light.
Regardless, I agree with your points. It's not always bad to sell something if you want to get the rest of your works heard. It's all a big game, and most people have to play to some degree to be able to do what they love.
"It's all a big game, and most people have to play to some degree to be able to do what they love."
Sure.. but then don't go mixing those two things up. There is work (entertainment or otherwise), and there is art. That some people cry unfair because they want their pie and eat it isn't really my concern.
I didn't argue that the game creator is somehow evil, I just actually feel my brain hurting from dumbness intruding when I read people talk about "artistical merit" in the context of this "game" (the gameplay mechanics are a bit limited to call it that, but that's a whole other can of worms). The response to that? "Yeah, but" and downmoderation. Oh well, oh lol. What else is new.
Despite being wrong, I always interpreted Eulogy to being mostly positive, with an undercurrent of anger that was aimed mostly at his untimely death than anything else.
You could just shorten the whole thing to "You're another whore at the capitalist gang bang, period".
Everyone's selling something. Try talking to an actual professional artist and ask them if they're following their dreams and expanding boundaries or if they're mass-producing different variations of the same 2 paintings they've been able to sell consistently in between kissing asses at galleries.
Well duh. However, I see what you did there. Why the arbitrary qualification? Why does it have to be a professional artist, why not an albino one, or someone who only has 8 fingers, or an artist period? Oh right, because then your argument kinda falls on its face.
I think you're trying to make a statement about objective artistic value, which arguably doesn't exist.
From this comment all you've really said is that you and Bill Hick (probably) wouldn't think this is art. Nobody here could argue with that. But it says nothing about what art is or who is an artist.
Saw this link on Twitter earlier, didn't click through though. Flash ran fine in Chrome, pretty fun game, love the sound effects. I'm only 23% apprentice... if anyone made it to the end.
I touched a chest. It took me a long time to get there. I can't move and horrible noises are coming out of my speakers. I'm tearing up at the beauty of it all.
Well seeing as how the final boss is Skrillex and you have to defeat him while he throws the corrupted cubes at you, I'd say yes they do represent his music, which is "corrupting the world".
It is tongue in cheek and that is part of the charm.
>Link electronic music that wasn't repetitive and wasn't released on Warp Records.
I personally don't believe that repetition in electronic music even implies a sub-par track, but that's highly subjective of course, and we know where you stand.
Some of the most groundbreaking and beautiful music to me is found on the Basic Channel and Chain Reaction labels, with tracks that are extremely minimal and would probably sound repetitive to many listeners.
Plus 8 has a long history of incredible and innovative artists and tracks. It really depends on how you define electronic as well. If Chain Reaction is repetitive, Plus 8 less so, Warp less so, but even less are labels like Wax Trax! that had much more dynamic and traditional song structures from their artists (industrial). Do you consider them electronic? Subjective. Labels like Mo Wax delivered far less repetitive offerings than Warp artists, and just as compelling. Ghostly International takes takes us back to more traditional electronic offering if Mo Wax and Wax Trax! aren't 'electronic' enough for one's definition.
Really, there are just too many to name, even with the constraint of stripping out electronic music subjectively deemed 'repetitive'.
But I take your point though. Warp Records, especially at a particular time in electronic music's history, was one of those special and legendary labels that every genre seems to have one or two of. They were home to some of the most compelling and innovative artists of their generation, and rather than having just one or two, they were home to many. Might be the best electronic music label in history for strength of talent and how deep their roster went.
And I too have a lawn, but you don't need to get off it, -instead you can hang out on it and bring your vinyl. I've got a few crates of some incredibly good and rare discs and a 1200 on which to play them ;)
Yeah. I was only pointing out that there's a massively wide variety of electronic music these days, and saying that it sucks now is ignoring the history of electronic music where a lot of it started out as extremely boring stuff that appealed to specific tastes and not much else, with a few notable exceptions. Hell even some of the high profile Warp releases relied on a ton of repetition.
But as you say, it's not a bad thing... just like how a lot of electronic music today is also not a bad thing.
I agree that there is no correlation between the quality of music and repetition. There are even a number of "high brow" musicians and composers, such as Philip Glass or Terry Reily, that have had repetition as a common motif in their work, and for which they have been heralded by many.
I posted to first version of the site to Hubski a while ago but I can't find it. I think the author has updated it since then, but the general look and flow is the same. Incredible wealth of historical knowledge, complete with audio examples.
201 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 242 ms ] threadI'm using Chrome stable on Ubuntu 12.04. I have no extensions besides Adblock Plus. This is the only page I've encountered that crashes Flash on my computer.
the game was a bit simple, but have nice touches.
http://harmonyzone.org/GobletGrotto.html http://gamejolt.com/games/rpg/goblet-grotto/10253/
I do wish it wasn't Flash though. Not that I have anything against Flash itself when used the right way, but I feel like it's really hard to "own" a Flash game.
Unlike, say, iOS apps that you can download and come back to 6 months later, Flash games are a lot more of a flash in the pan (sorry…) and I think it's a shame in cases like this where the end result is so great and so much work obviously went into it.
Edit: And took me from somewhere near 100% battery to 67%. Crazy
I love electronic music. But, I can not get into Skrillex or American Dubstep for that manner. I feel like im missing something...
Dubstep can be awesome however.
Dubstep was invented in Europe in the 90s and came out of the early techno scene. The shit these douches are making in California is completely unrelated.
If you're correcting someone on nomenclature please be more accurate, and if you're trolling, please be funnier.
I live down the street from Hardwax, for fuck's sake.
The UK scene has its own independent subbass heritage. People in the london scene at least aren't generally that aware of what comes out of europe, especially back in the web 1.0 era we're talking about.
Check out this from 2000: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doMX6su9Ue0
And this from 95: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjQZxMoF8Kc
Both pure london sounds.
Burial in particular was already doing that sound without having ever having heard of basic channel, until kode9 showed it to him.
http://blackdownsoundboy.blogspot.co.uk/2006/03/soundboy-bur...
Also living next to hardwax doesn't qualify you to know about tunes. My mum used to live near blackmarket and she hasn't got any dubs at all.
EDIT: Also technically the R&S lot took that sound from english people like Mad Professor in the 80s :P
That's why people differentiate dance music so carefully. When people talk about dubstep they aren't talking about a halfstep drumloop and a falling 808, they're talking about Third Base, Plastic People, Big Apple, Music House and Red Stripe. When people talk about berlin techno they're not just talking about 909s on the up and white noise filter bleeps, they're talking about Hardwax, Berghain and D&M.
The internet has kindof put a top to this and it's a shame. The creative engine of the london underground which produced dubstep and everything before it is chasing its own tail right now, devoid of new ideas, and it's partly for this reason IMO.
"That's the worst turnip I've ever tasted!" "Sir, that's a daikon radish." "Well, then, it's not bad then."
I think a lot of it has to do with expectation. I find brostep good cleaning music, actually -- the quick change of pace works for it. I also find a bit of emotional release from it -- there's something in the contrast for me, at least.
But nobody I've ever met likes every type of music. :)
Either way, a very cool interactive experience. The only criticism I have is that they completely ignored mobile/tablet/non-Flash -- it's a Flash-based game, but if you visit the site on a non-Flash device you don't even get an alternate "Sorry, your device is not supported" message.
I brought it up because I'd have an easier time seeing a label run by an ex-goon engaging in this kind of marketing, as opposed to one like Atlantic.
http://chexquest.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
http://chexquest.wikia.com/wiki/Chex_Quest
> Chex Quest, made by Digital Café, is a total conversion of The Ultimate Doom. It was released in boxes of Chex Cereal in 1996, becoming the first game to be included in a cereal box. When it was released, it increased sales by over 200%. It then went on to win both the Golden Reggie Award for Promotional Achievement, and the Silver EFFIE Award for Advertising Effectiveness.
"Here's the deal, folks. You do a commercial - you're off the artistic roll call, forever. End of story. Okay? You're another whore at the capitalist gang bang and if you do a commercial, there's a price on your head. Everything you say is suspect and every word that comes out of your mouth is now like a turd falling into my drink."
- Bill Hicks
doesn't constitute an argument either, does it. So there's not really anything there to argue against; just an assertion. Meanwhile, to me it's "fairly obvious" that this ain't art, and therefore "the fuck" is perfectly sufficient.
"Quoting a comedian is not really an argument."
Oh yeah, because a comedian is by definition funny, and not ever insightful.
Good thing people don't react in a butthurt, predictable fashion, or anything. Haha.
Kinda spiking the irony meter here. You asserted that there's no artistic value and, what, expected people to accept that as a valuable part of the conversation?
Commercial music? Artists who make a living selling their work? Commissioned pieces? Art doesn't have to be produced by the idle rich and the impoverished and starving. It's hard to define art precisely, but your definition seems to be at odds with the generally accepted one.
It was stirring and idealistic when I was in my 20's.
However over the years my instinctive distrust of the world of commerce diminishes as I realise that humans live, swim and breath in commerce. It was here before art-with-a-capital-A and it will outlive it.
The other thing to remember is that art-with-a-capital-A was largely an invention of the Romantic movement. Artist-as-lone-hero and all that. It's not an eternal truth and in fact it creates a fictional view of the Artist that I distrust more over time.
Who is talking about commerce? It's about using emotion to lead people to make irrational choices. If you need rice and I farm rice, and I sell you some rice, that's commerce. It has however NOTHING to do with anything Bill Hicks ever ranted about. So don't flatter yourself I'd say, your insight isn't really one.
"The other thing to remember is that art-with-a-capital-A was largely an invention of the Romantic movement"
The idea that washing your hands is a great idea for doctors and in general is also fairly recent; so?
"in fact it creates a fictional view of the Artist"
No, it simply raised the bar. How can it be fictional if people existed and exist that fit the description? That's just wishful thinking on your part so you don't feel too bad for going back to sleep.
You also make the claim that all advertising is about trying to make people make irrational choices. But if I post a billboard that says "Come try our pancakes!", am I really trying to make you behave irrationally?
There is certainly plenty of "bad" advertising, and campaigns that artists would be better off not associating themselves with, but the blanket statement just doesn't fit.
Michelangelo. Shakespeare. Leonardo Da Vinci. David Lynch. William Wordsworth. Alfred, Lord Tennyson.
All of these people, and many more, made things that were essentially adverts - commissioned pieces designed to promote a particular institution.
I felt something playing this game. It has surprisingly good ambiance and seeing a bunch of pixel characters who have accepted their fate and were waiting for death, to me, gave it a level of emotional attachment I did not expect after I read the tag 'advergame'.
One thing you have to realize is that it's very hard to make games nowadays without some kind of income. If you are lucky, you only have to slum it for a few years and then you make a hit on the side. But more often, you have to do whatever it takes, unless you are willing to keep your day job.
I actually still agree with the Bill Hicks quote, but I feel there is some wiggle room when what is produced is actually a game, and in the end, does not fit the constraint of standard advertising.
IMO if more advertising were like this, the world would be a better place, and Bill Hicks would have been less angry.
And here I will quote Tool's Eulogy, which was about Bill Hicks, if you didn't know:
"He had a voice so strong and loud and I Swallowed his facade cuz I'm so Eager to identify with Someone above the ground, Someone who seemed to feel the same, Someone prepared to lead the way, with Someone who would die for me."
Just because a voice is loud and you agree with it, doesn't necessarily mean that it is entirely correct. I love the shit out of Bill Hicks and I still feel the world would be a better place if he had lived long enough to foster the change he felt he needed. But I still don't feel his quote applies to this game.
On another, the motivation and goal of the creation, at least to me, outweighs such considerations by order of magnitude. And on that level I don't consider that, or much anything really, "art" by any stretch of my imagination.
Which means yes, I would consider the exact same thing art or not art depending on by whom, why and how it was created and presented.
That may not be fair, but it's my firm opinion anyway. Yeah yeah, people gotta eat. I know that. (I do think that technically even that is a decision, but I'll accept that in this in context.) But what people do NOT "absolutely have to" is to consider themselves as artists, or to be considered by me as such. They'll have to settle with mediocre.
Regardless, I agree with your points. It's not always bad to sell something if you want to get the rest of your works heard. It's all a big game, and most people have to play to some degree to be able to do what they love.
Sure.. but then don't go mixing those two things up. There is work (entertainment or otherwise), and there is art. That some people cry unfair because they want their pie and eat it isn't really my concern.
I didn't argue that the game creator is somehow evil, I just actually feel my brain hurting from dumbness intruding when I read people talk about "artistical merit" in the context of this "game" (the gameplay mechanics are a bit limited to call it that, but that's a whole other can of worms). The response to that? "Yeah, but" and downmoderation. Oh well, oh lol. What else is new.
Eulogy was about L. Ron Hubbard.
Are we to assume that Mr. Hicks never promoted his gigs, and performed them for free?
Everyone's selling something. Try talking to an actual professional artist and ask them if they're following their dreams and expanding boundaries or if they're mass-producing different variations of the same 2 paintings they've been able to sell consistently in between kissing asses at galleries.
Well duh. However, I see what you did there. Why the arbitrary qualification? Why does it have to be a professional artist, why not an albino one, or someone who only has 8 fingers, or an artist period? Oh right, because then your argument kinda falls on its face.
Bill Hicks was referring to talking about something you basically only have a monetary interest in.
From this comment all you've really said is that you and Bill Hick (probably) wouldn't think this is art. Nobody here could argue with that. But it says nothing about what art is or who is an artist.
It is tongue in cheek and that is part of the charm.
WARNING, POTENTIAL SPOILER ALERT: If you beat the game you see a video clip of him that is specific to the game.
Get off my lawn.
Oh, and then go back and play The Legend of Zelda all the way to the end, and then come back here and say it was good.
Also, you have a lawn? Lucky bastard.
I personally don't believe that repetition in electronic music even implies a sub-par track, but that's highly subjective of course, and we know where you stand.
Some of the most groundbreaking and beautiful music to me is found on the Basic Channel and Chain Reaction labels, with tracks that are extremely minimal and would probably sound repetitive to many listeners.
Plus 8 has a long history of incredible and innovative artists and tracks. It really depends on how you define electronic as well. If Chain Reaction is repetitive, Plus 8 less so, Warp less so, but even less are labels like Wax Trax! that had much more dynamic and traditional song structures from their artists (industrial). Do you consider them electronic? Subjective. Labels like Mo Wax delivered far less repetitive offerings than Warp artists, and just as compelling. Ghostly International takes takes us back to more traditional electronic offering if Mo Wax and Wax Trax! aren't 'electronic' enough for one's definition.
Really, there are just too many to name, even with the constraint of stripping out electronic music subjectively deemed 'repetitive'.
But I take your point though. Warp Records, especially at a particular time in electronic music's history, was one of those special and legendary labels that every genre seems to have one or two of. They were home to some of the most compelling and innovative artists of their generation, and rather than having just one or two, they were home to many. Might be the best electronic music label in history for strength of talent and how deep their roster went.
And I too have a lawn, but you don't need to get off it, -instead you can hang out on it and bring your vinyl. I've got a few crates of some incredibly good and rare discs and a 1200 on which to play them ;)
But as you say, it's not a bad thing... just like how a lot of electronic music today is also not a bad thing.
Although I would add that Ninja Tune, Rephlex, Brainfeeder and Planet Mu all have some great artists too.
On that note, if you have not seen this site yet, be prepared to have the rest of your afternoon's productivity destroyed:
http://techno.org/electronic-music-guide/
I posted to first version of the site to Hubski a while ago but I can't find it. I think the author has updated it since then, but the general look and flow is the same. Incredible wealth of historical knowledge, complete with audio examples.