This looks like another result of CLEAR opening up their network for other vendors to sell their data. Freedompop is doing a similar thing, just without the Karma component to it.
Nice to see what happens when a company like CLEAR opens things up -- all sorts of innovation springs.
Except the CLEAR network blows. I used to have a couple retail stores and sold them off because I felt terrible getting so many complaints about service quality and could see the company already declining as key investors were pulling out.
The nodes were initially unsaturated and speedy -- you could often get 15-20mbps on mobile hotspot. Now people are lucky to get 512kbps on their home modems in moderately dense residential areas.
Clear's network isn't great, but I really like the pay-as-you go aspect of this. Right now I'm paying $25 a month for an unlocked iSpot but I go weeks without using it.
neat idea, useful for travelling groups or work sessions on the go. What's the catch tho? Facebook login? Suspect. Ads popping up on every hotspot user's web browsing? Or does paying for the device cover them
I don't see one. It's pay-per-gigabyte 4G internet plus a referral program that pays a commission of 100MB free data usage per user.
> Facebook login? Suspect.
That's to prevent gaming the referral program. Linking to a Facebook account means you can't give yourself unlimited data by continually changing your device info before connecting.
Why should there be a catch if you're paying $14/GB? Not exactly a bargain. There are very similar offerings like the one from Virgin mobile at a similar price point.
I prefer the OpenGarden model for this, which is entirely software based, and thus only needs an Android (and hopefully soon iOS) phone to accomplish the exact same. And as speeds and phones get faster and more pervasive, their distribution model is far better than Karma's.
I've been meaning to try OpenGarden and I agree to some extent that OpenGarden might be a better solution. However I think the mobile hotspot such as Karma, Freedom, etc offer the benefit of not chewing through your smartphone's battery and your plan's data limits.
Are multiple devices connected to the same hotspot able to communicate? I don't want any random person in the coffeeshop to be able to access my machine.
Provided the random person in the coffeeshop has a Karma account, then they would be able to use the same hotspot. I believe the product information states that up to 8 devices can be connected to your hotspot.
I think the question is whether two devices connected to the same hotspot can send packets to each other. Ideally, you want to isolate them as much as possible, letting them connect only to the Internet.
Thanks for the clarification. I now understand the parent's point and it's a valid concern.
However, for a first launch, I'm wildly speculating that they didn't consider this. If you're going to share your bandwidth and are concerned about this, Karma will probably suggest that you disconnect from your own portal.
Karma's reasoning is probably as follows:
* Connecting via wifi usually implies a mobile device of some type (phone or laptop);
* When connecting to a public wifi hotspot, most mobile devices can see (and attack) each other on the same SSID;
* If you are normally willing to operate your mobile device in public wifi hotspots, you'd probably have no problem operating in similarly (and possibly hostile) conditions with your own access point;
* One hopes that you and (at least) Karma have the slight comfort of knowing exactly which Karma customer joined your hotspot and tried to attack you, versus an anonymous device in a public wifi hotspot.
That's indeed what I'm referring to. However, for me there is a difference between connecting to a public wifi spot and my own mobile hotspot. I do agree that knowing exactly who connects is an advantage. Just something to keep in mind when you sign up with them.
I just bought this. Every time someone connects to your hotspot, you both get some free extra data. Also it never expires, and the bandwidth is tied to the account, not the device so I can my account on someones else's device as well. This sounds like a winner.
Are users who share their hotspot indemnified if someone browses something illegal via their hotspot? In light of the recent prosecution of Tor exit-node operators, this service seems like it could create similar risk to the end users who share.
(Edit: Ninja addition)
If you had indemnity you could just set one of these up and go on your merry way doing what the hell illegal stuff you like so I'm guessing not.
Remember that even if you don't happen to get found guilty in court you could be looking at having the police turn up one day and confiscate all of your computers for several months as well as digging through your email etc.
Could it be? Does this mean my wife and I can use our unlocked iPhones with voice-only (t-mobile, maybe?) sim cards and use this Karma thing as our data plan? We're paying US$15/mo each for 200MB data. It's ridiculous. And, we're on HSPA+, not even LTE (AT&T, don't even ask; I can have full bars and it still takes forever to load up text-heavy pages).
Do you talk a lot? T-Mobile has an unlimited data, unlimited text, 100 minute no-contract plan for $30/month. I'm using it with my Nexus 4. Additional talk time is $0.10/minute.
How did you actually get that plan with your Nexus 4? I've been a T-mobile customer for several years, always owning my phone outright (now a Nexus 4), but they gave me a serious run-around, telling me that particular plan was a promotional thing that could only be used with a Walmart handset.
Bought a micro-SIM card on the website (Wal-Mart sells them too), popped it in the phone, chose the plan from the list when activating the SIM card on the website. You got a run-around because you talked to a real person when that's a web-only (t-mobile.com or walmart.com) plan for new customers.
My ex had a similar issue. It seemed like they were trying to say that data plan was meant for non-smart phones. It was meant to cover the applications on the original Razrs and such but not the higher bandwidth needs of newer phones.
I don't know about T-Mobile, but I think AT&T and Verizon both require smartphones to have a data plan, and they can detect if you have a smartphone and force you to have a data plan because of that.
I don't know about AT&T and T-Mobile, but Verizon and Sprint (CDMA) phones have the IMEI/MEID tied to the phone since there's no SIM. It works a bit like a VIN on a car I think. This means they know what phone you're activating during activation.
In my experience with ATT, they only know what your phone is if you purchase it through ATT. If, for example, you buy a Nexus 4 from Google and tell ATT that it's a dumb phone, they won't know it's actually a smartphone since they don't have the IMEI on file.
Well, it's rather like karma: "As a member of the Fon community, you agree to share a little bit of your WiFi at home, and get free roaming at Fon Spots worldwide in return."
Not exactly because you don't have the ratio idea where you have to share XXX MB with someone before having YYY MB for yourself.
In France Free is a well-known ISP offering this kind of feature with its ADSL box. You open your WI-FI to others and then you have access to every other WIFI shared by users from this ISP.
Not just Europe– I had a test unit from way back for when they were entering the US, though they never got really big (I do see them occasionally). In Japan I see them everywhere.
I find it interesting that there is no coverage in Santa Monica, arguably the most tech-centric section of Los Angeles. Plus, requiring folks to use Facebook to get a Karma account is a very unfortunate decision.
As a reseller, their coverage is completely based on CLEAR's coverage, like how Virgin Mobile is entirely based on Sprint's coverage. It's as though Karma is a MIVO - Mobile Internet Virtual Operator.
Why CLEAR has no coverage in Santa Monica is a very good question.
One important part that should be added though (I couldn't tell from the website if they already do something like this):
When using it to share your personal internet connection, guest wifi connections should have all their internet traffic proxied/vpn'ed through the service's own internet connection. That way, the service itself keeps track of who was connected when, and if anything illicit happens through the connection they can follow up on the account that was used. Doing so would take away the largest concern I currently have with opening up my home internet connection. I'm happy to share the bandwidth I'm not using, but I don't want my name tied to that traffic.
With this device, you are not sharing your home internet connection. You are sharing the 4G internet connection, and I believe it does work as you describe - the individual must login and pay for access (and when they do, you, as the owner of the device, gets a free 100mb).
note that this is clearwire wimax only - a network that is actively shrinking as they transition to lte and their partner (sprint) decommissions iDen cells.
You can get a similar price item with better connectivity but without the gimmicks from sprint's budget brand: $79 for a wimax+3g hotspot, $35/mo for 2 gigs of 3g data on sprint (evdo rev a) and "unlimited" wimax. or $5/day for 200mb/"unlimited"(activated for just the days you use it)
sprint's evdo rev a network performs pretty poorly, but it is way better than not having a signal, something that will be true more often than not with wimax only service.
It's perhaps of questionable importance, but while virgin usa used to be a sprint partnership mvno, sprint bought them outright in 2009. Sprint also owns 54% of Clear.
While the Virgin Mobile hotspot is a good deal its service can be worse than Clear, despite piggybacking on it. I have a Clear Apollo hotspot ($50/m, unlimited WiMax). Recently I used mine side-by-side with a friend's VM hotspot. I got 4/5 bars with 8Mbit/1Mbit. He got 2/5 bars and couldn't maintain a connection. It's possible my device has a better antenna than his but that doesn't seem like the issue since my signal was so strong.
Oh, wimax, that's unfortunate: I was hoping it was piggybacking some LTE or HSDPA network. This is no longer nearly as interesting.
That said, this being a pay-per-use device is awesome, and it being useful to anyone nearby is doubly awesome. $15/GB is a way better pay-per-use price than anyone else out there. Walmart TruConnect, for example, is a 3G only device that is $45/GB.
Real pay per use encourages us to be thrifty with out bandwidth, to connect to wifi, and to not worry about a silly over-utilization feees (going over) or silly under-utilization (per month plans far in excess of actual usage). I highly look forward to this less stressful pay-per-use data economy taking root.
Because it's so hard to make a fake Facebook account. If someone actually wants to cause trouble, requiring Facebook won't do anything except slow them down for about 20 seconds. I see this "reason" everywhere, but it's total garbage.
Wasn't there a guy in Australia who got his house raided for having Tor exit servers? How long is it going to take before people use this for something like child pornography and you go to jail?
YES! Bought. So disruptive. Goodbye dumbphone. Hellloooo karma. Skipped right over the buying smartphone "minutes" and "text" nonsense.
Genius marketing model. If I get to customize the SSID it'll be something like: "yourkarma.com, use this wifi!". SSID can only be 32 characters. A shorter, recognizable domain like "kar.ma" would be awesome. More space for cleverness.
Living in a busy apartment complex near the center of downtown Portland, close to a couple coffee shops... visitors at all the neighboring apartments.... I wonder if I'll ever have to actually buy data directly.
The train station in Portland doesn't have any wifi. Talk the staff into letting you run a cord to one of the lockers. Or several. Win-win! Also, the university. They do have guest access, but it's annoying to login.
So many places to stash these. The possibilities are endless!
Minor quibble: says "We'll give you 1GB for free" on splash page. Actually only gives 100MB.
Exactly. The SSID proves precisely nothing. It is sad to see them to claim it "keeps people honest."
This "Karma FirstName" scheme is going to alienate some potential customers. Also, I suspect the added advertising boost from letting your users be clever would offset losses. But that is a simple empirical question. It wouldn't be hard at all. How many new signups per hotspot do you get from hotspots with custom SSIDs versus stock SSIDs?
Looking forward to seeing what security measures they do have in place to prevent someone from spoofing. At an abstract level, the device is going to need to contain some public-key (or something similar) that it sends somewhere on the Internet which is then verified with a private key. Then it's got to tell the user whether or not it's a real Karma hotspot or there's trouble.
There will always be a risk. But it could at least be managed to the point where it is one of the lesser Internet risks.
Remember this isn't really a new security hole for users of public wifi. Just setting up your own Starbuck's access point (dlink) and loading it with malware and snooping would do the same thing.
I don't really know how SSL works over a compromised access point. So maybe there are safeguards. But I tend to assume if the access point is compromised, all my base are belong to them. Or at least the data I send.
Please remember that this isn't a phone/text/data service. This is ONLY internet. If you have Skype/Google Voice/Lync/etc then you can place phone calls with an internet (IP) phone or computer or device. Likewise for text messages.
You could keep this on your person, and just be a walking mobile hotspot.
What's your VoIP set up? I messed with sip sorcery and sipgate paired with google voice back in the day right after gizmo5 went dark, but it was a nightmare to set up and the lag made it difficult to use.
100MB is the bonus you get whenever someone new connects to your device (seems like a referral bonus); 1GB is how much your account is pre-loaded with when you buy one of these things.
It seems fon requires you already have an isp connection. Fon allows you to share it with others. The balance is that on a trip you will be able to access fon hotspot for free (?). Here Karma embeds a 4G connection, AFAIU. Am I correct?
A good idea but with far too little bandwidth. 1GB / 100MB is nothing. Between syncing git repos, remote backup, Dropbox, and heavy web browsing (not including Netflix) I go through at least 5GB a day. I'll stick with Clear's own access point at $50/m for unlimited access. It works pretty well in most cities but can be sensitive to positioning.
The idea is worthless if no one has to buy, remember. The whole idea is to give out a little free to get people connected and hooked, let them use up their data, then charge the hell out of them.
I think it's awesome, by the way. It basically the freemium model that is kicking ass in software right now, ported over to the real world.
I always suspected the real money in this sort of plan is selling the devices to people who think they're going to make money by reselling access. The timing of this announcement is particularly interesting to me, since I just wrote about the "selling pickaxes" model over the weekend. Strange.
123 comments
[ 342 ms ] story [ 2727 ms ] threadNice to see what happens when a company like CLEAR opens things up -- all sorts of innovation springs.
The nodes were initially unsaturated and speedy -- you could often get 15-20mbps on mobile hotspot. Now people are lucky to get 512kbps on their home modems in moderately dense residential areas.
I don't see one. It's pay-per-gigabyte 4G internet plus a referral program that pays a commission of 100MB free data usage per user.
> Facebook login? Suspect.
That's to prevent gaming the referral program. Linking to a Facebook account means you can't give yourself unlimited data by continually changing your device info before connecting.
> Or does paying for the device cover them
You pay for the device and the data.
(Disclosure, I'm an investor in OpenGarden)
However, for a first launch, I'm wildly speculating that they didn't consider this. If you're going to share your bandwidth and are concerned about this, Karma will probably suggest that you disconnect from your own portal.
Karma's reasoning is probably as follows:
* Connecting via wifi usually implies a mobile device of some type (phone or laptop);
* When connecting to a public wifi hotspot, most mobile devices can see (and attack) each other on the same SSID;
* If you are normally willing to operate your mobile device in public wifi hotspots, you'd probably have no problem operating in similarly (and possibly hostile) conditions with your own access point;
* One hopes that you and (at least) Karma have the slight comfort of knowing exactly which Karma customer joined your hotspot and tried to attack you, versus an anonymous device in a public wifi hotspot.
I guess the hotspot owner is protected, given that users are identified by their own Facebook account and the credit card used to pay for the charges.
Remember that even if you don't happen to get found guilty in court you could be looking at having the police turn up one day and confiscate all of your computers for several months as well as digging through your email etc.
FAIL.
Edit: I don't see any U.S. sites in the FON coverage map, and the 4g aspect is genuinely new.
In France Free is a well-known ISP offering this kind of feature with its ADSL box. You open your WI-FI to others and then you have access to every other WIFI shared by users from this ISP.
Why CLEAR has no coverage in Santa Monica is a very good question.
One important part that should be added though (I couldn't tell from the website if they already do something like this):
When using it to share your personal internet connection, guest wifi connections should have all their internet traffic proxied/vpn'ed through the service's own internet connection. That way, the service itself keeps track of who was connected when, and if anything illicit happens through the connection they can follow up on the account that was used. Doing so would take away the largest concern I currently have with opening up my home internet connection. I'm happy to share the bandwidth I'm not using, but I don't want my name tied to that traffic.
You can get a similar price item with better connectivity but without the gimmicks from sprint's budget brand: $79 for a wimax+3g hotspot, $35/mo for 2 gigs of 3g data on sprint (evdo rev a) and "unlimited" wimax. or $5/day for 200mb/"unlimited"(activated for just the days you use it)
sprint's evdo rev a network performs pretty poorly, but it is way better than not having a signal, something that will be true more often than not with wimax only service.
I had to look for it, but here it is, apparently Sprint uses the Virgin brand name in the US:
http://www.virginmobileusa.com/shop/mobile-broadband/broadba...
I'll be in the US for the rest of the year, so I'm buying one of these - way cheaper than international roaming. Thanks for the tip!
@GP comment: AND you can just buy a CLEAR hotspot for $50 and pay $50/mo for their unlimited service.
edit: tried to make it more clear...
You can also do the same with a rooted android Sprint phone... and get phone service to boot. IMO a better deal.
That said, this being a pay-per-use device is awesome, and it being useful to anyone nearby is doubly awesome. $15/GB is a way better pay-per-use price than anyone else out there. Walmart TruConnect, for example, is a 3G only device that is $45/GB.
Real pay per use encourages us to be thrifty with out bandwidth, to connect to wifi, and to not worry about a silly over-utilization feees (going over) or silly under-utilization (per month plans far in excess of actual usage). I highly look forward to this less stressful pay-per-use data economy taking root.
Genius marketing model. If I get to customize the SSID it'll be something like: "yourkarma.com, use this wifi!". SSID can only be 32 characters. A shorter, recognizable domain like "kar.ma" would be awesome. More space for cleverness.
Living in a busy apartment complex near the center of downtown Portland, close to a couple coffee shops... visitors at all the neighboring apartments.... I wonder if I'll ever have to actually buy data directly.
The train station in Portland doesn't have any wifi. Talk the staff into letting you run a cord to one of the lockers. Or several. Win-win! Also, the university. They do have guest access, but it's annoying to login.
So many places to stash these. The possibilities are endless!
Minor quibble: says "We'll give you 1GB for free" on splash page. Actually only gives 100MB.
Their reasoning - https://yourkarma.com/help/5-why-can-t-i-change-the-name-of-...
This "Karma FirstName" scheme is going to alienate some potential customers. Also, I suspect the added advertising boost from letting your users be clever would offset losses. But that is a simple empirical question. It wouldn't be hard at all. How many new signups per hotspot do you get from hotspots with custom SSIDs versus stock SSIDs?
Looking forward to seeing what security measures they do have in place to prevent someone from spoofing. At an abstract level, the device is going to need to contain some public-key (or something similar) that it sends somewhere on the Internet which is then verified with a private key. Then it's got to tell the user whether or not it's a real Karma hotspot or there's trouble.
There will always be a risk. But it could at least be managed to the point where it is one of the lesser Internet risks.
Remember this isn't really a new security hole for users of public wifi. Just setting up your own Starbuck's access point (dlink) and loading it with malware and snooping would do the same thing.
I don't really know how SSL works over a compromised access point. So maybe there are safeguards. But I tend to assume if the access point is compromised, all my base are belong to them. Or at least the data I send.
You could keep this on your person, and just be a walking mobile hotspot.
OMG you fucking tryhard SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!
I think it's awesome, by the way. It basically the freemium model that is kicking ass in software right now, ported over to the real world.
"Everyone throws gigabytes and megabytes around, but what do they really mean?"
It's a mystery!
Not really catering to the "Hacker News" crowd...