Stop for one second and ask yourself a simple question. Where do your words come from?
When you speak, what comes first, the idea or the word? Do you first feel a thought inside you, and only after that go searching for the right word to wrap around it? I think we all do. The word is never the start. The word is just the skin. The idea, the consciousness, is the thing sitting under it.
St Augustine had it right 1500 years ago: humans learn words opportunistically according to their desires and problems and existing deep understanding of the world, and (critically) humans really can't learn language without being natively fluent in great ape facial expressions, gestures, grunts, etc.
Did I not, then, as I grew out of infancy, come next to boyhood, or rather did it not come to me and succeed my infancy? My infancy did not go away (for where would it go?). It was simply no longer present; and I was no longer an infant who could not speak, but now a chattering boy. I remember this, and I have since observed how I learned to speak. My elders did not teach me words by rote, as they taught me my letters afterward. But I myself, when I was unable to communicate all I wished to say to whomever I wished by means of whimperings and grunts and various gestures of my limbs (which I used to reinforce my demands), I myself repeated the sounds already stored in my memory by the mind which thou, O my God, hadst given me. When they called some thing by name and pointed it out while they spoke, I saw it and realized that the thing they wished to indicate was called by the name they then uttered. And what they meant was made plain by the gestures of their bodies, by a kind of natural language, common to all nations, which expresses itself through changes of countenance, glances of the eye, gestures and intonations which indicate a disposition and attitude--either to seek or to possess, to reject or to avoid. So it was that by frequently hearing words, in different phrases, I gradually identified the objects which the words stood for and, having formed my mouth to repeat these signs, I was thereby able to express my will. Thus I exchanged with those about me the verbal signs by which we express our wishes and advanced deeper into the stormy fellowship of human life, depending all the while upon the authority of my parents and the behest of my elders.
It is not all obvious that consciousness precedes language. Hellen Keller provides a vivid description of her pre-verbal mental state as something less than reflective conscious.
> Before my teacher came to me, I did not know that I am. I lived in a world that was a no-world. I cannot hope to describe adequately that unconscious, yet conscious time of nothingness. I did not know that I knew aught, or that I lived or acted or desired. I had neither will nor intellect.
That words are a byproduct of consciousness is a bold claim and requires some justification. I'm not implying it's backwards also for humans, but that the statement might not be true, and something else could be. Also, defining consciousness is hard.
LLMs as clearly doing more than just modeling words. In order to predict word placement, they need to build some kind of model, their latent space, of the types of things they are able to predict. Not really full world models yet - but they have decent "blog space" or "github project" models. And you can see this with multimodality, or non-text modality modals such as images and audio. They map from their latent spaces to the outputs. The fact that multi-modal systems can share the interior layers shows some kind of internal representation is created.
Words limit our understanding of words because they are intrinsic to a particular kind of understanding. yes? no?
In "Notes on the Synthesis of Form", Christopher Alexander talks about how we can know something is wrong even when we do not know how to make something right. He was talking about this I think
=z==
as opposed to
+|+|+
or
+|+|+|
I happened upon the word "entanglement" and it seems an interesting alternative to the order that is inherent in words.
Our language is all about Actor-verb-object. Entanglement provides a fundamentally different concept. I cannot say "I drove my car on the road" with entanglement. Or at least with entanglement I can say something equally valid like "the road moved my car with me inside."
And entanglement works for the + and | things, at least for me. There is some kind of entanglement (degree) that creates a gestalt.
Isn't it interesting then how much of our intelligence is captured by our words/language? I would've thought to create AI you needed to replicate neurons and synapses and learning. So it's still amazing to me that statistical modelling of our words creates a Claude Opus.
The author is making a big mistake by making a normative claim about 'true' intelligence and consciousness.
Is there a correct way to cognize? And although he feels cognizing works in a very specific direction, his brain is basically doing a very similar guessing game on a deep level with training of pathways that started at birth. Basing the argument in a feeling about consciousness is not convincing.
The author thinks they are describing a unique human magic, forgetting Augustine's insight that human thought doesn't precede the word, but is brought into consciousness by it.
No, I don't think so. Language is intimately intertwined with our understanding of the world. Many people make the mistake to think that languages are about the spelling or the sound or maybe the grammar. But in reality they are about how words are defined only on relation to each other. A symbol is defined by what it is not. This relationship between symbols structures how we think about the world and how we fantasize and desire.
You can perhaps have a consciousness without words, but not without language.
"At its core, it is a big pile of words that predicts the next word, using some maths the computers figured out."
"An LLM predicts the next word based on all the words before it. That is the whole story. There is no idea sitting underneath. The words are everything."
This is just flat out wrong.
Words are used as training data, to build a system of vector embeddings. The LLM contains no words. That was the training data long discarded.
Vector embeddings are groupings of meanings derived from the relationship between the words in its training data. This entire system is modelled after human neural mechanisms in a way that machines can emulate.
"But your brain works the other way around. First there is a concept, a feeling, an image, and then the words come out to describe it. (At least, this is how I feel my own brain working.) For us, words are the byproduct of consciousness."
It's working the same way around (you are not saying Ai has consciousness that is derived from words!). And you make a huge jump from the concept that 'words come from concepts' to 'words are the byproduct of consciousness'. Because 'concepts' are not equal to 'consciousness'.
In fact you do not define consciousness at all, making it hard to determine what argument you are actually making at all. You seem to think humans have this trait of 'consciousness' but can't explain or evidence it beyond 'feeling it'.
Consciousness it defined by many as the ability to experience events and process thoughts or qualia. It's hard to test this, and we can see why that is with an AI - it may claim to be conscious, or even claim not to be, but how can we trust either answer? Philosophers aren't even sure to trust another human who claims to be conscious, and we struggle constantly to determine at what point creatures the animal kingdom are conscious or not. Cats? Lobsters? Snails? or even across the plants?
Before you can refute the consciousness of AI, first establish the consciousness of humans. A better question to ask is what does the uncanny emergent ability of an AI to mimic a human say about consciousness?
But LLMs aren't just shuffling words around. Words (tokens) are the "human interface" at the edges. Text input gets embedded, then there's this huge latent-space computation in the middle, and only at the tail end does that get converted back into word/token probabilities. So just saying that "words are the source" isn't entirely correct and feels misleading.
> When you speak, what comes first, the idea or the word? Do you first feel a thought inside you, and only after that go searching for the right word to wrap around it?
Let's take a feral human, do they achieve the same with language powered humans? No, obviously. It means language does something we can't replace with "consciousness". Maybe something life preserving, putting consciousness downstream of language use.
But more generally - how can 8B humans make a living on this planet? Not without language, that is for sure! We long passed the stage where we could exist without language at our consumption rate. We can't even exist without math, population collapse would be the outcome.
Minds are downstream from language & math. For example, is music downstream of piano or piano downstream of music? I think you can't cut this cleanly. They developed in relation to the other, recursion between tool and art form is already old.
As others have remarked: this is an unsubstantiated claim.
I am actually using LLMs to perform controlled experiments to determine if the opposite is true, and that consciousness is a byproduct of language as Jaynes might have agreed.
It’s funny because, ever since Norbert Wiener’s Cybernetics was published in 1948, we’ve been trying to replicate how the human brain works. In that sense, we’ve been building increasingly powerful machines that mimic human thought. And now, the most interesting thing is something that turns that idea on its head: LLMs think in reverse.
Reminds me of this from "Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid":
"Let me rephrase these last couple of sentences without using the slightly
technical term "isomorphism". When a system of "meaningless" symbols has
patterns in it that accurately track, or mirror, various phenomena in the
world, then that tracking or mirroring imbues the symbols with some degree
of meaning - indeed, such tracking or mirroring is no less and no more
than what meaning is. Depending on how complex and subtle and reliable
the tracking is, different degrees of meaningfulness arise." - P-3
EDIT: I initially wrote "G.E.B." instead of "Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid" which was too cryptic.
> But one thing scares me a little. What if LLMs slowly become worse? Think about it. Everything written before 2017 was made by humans. After 2017, LLMs started filling the open web with their own content. And now that same content is being fed back to train the next LLMs. An LLM can give you perfect grammar and a rich vocabulary, but it can quietly lose the real context. Right now the share of AI content is small. But what happens when it keeps growing?
Have the last-generation LLM pre-screen new training data for the next generation LLM.
I'm going to go on a limb here and challenge this assumption. As a parallel thread to the point put forward by michael1999, can we not argue words manifest as the result of the maths performed within LLMs, maths that, for all intents and purposes, is their world? Because the internal maths of how LLMs work is likely to be significantly cruder than the 'real' world that defines consciousness, perhaps we are closer to the ghost in the machine than we would like to admit.
> But your brain works the other way around. First there is a concept, a feeling, an image, and then the words come out to describe it.
After this I can't take the essay seriously- this sort of blanket statement about the one true hierarchy of consciousness and knowledge is BS.
While it seems to have been disproven that words in other languages cause people to speak and think differently, that also doesn't mean that words don't have any effect on the way we think, or that the concept of a word always has to come before the word itself.
The reason why we experience the uncanny valley of LLMs is because they don't represent a true consciousness, BUT it's also clear that the architecture represents certain qualities of consciousness- as the models have scaled we can see that it has some other non-word related understanding.
The evidence points to consciousness as a set of interlocking systems- attention, long term memory, short term memory, emotions, etc.
54 comments
[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 33.8 ms ] threadWhen you speak, what comes first, the idea or the word? Do you first feel a thought inside you, and only after that go searching for the right word to wrap around it? I think we all do. The word is never the start. The word is just the skin. The idea, the consciousness, is the thing sitting under it.
If you don't believe me, learn how to meditate, meditate for literally just 10 minutes, and come back to me.
> Before my teacher came to me, I did not know that I am. I lived in a world that was a no-world. I cannot hope to describe adequately that unconscious, yet conscious time of nothingness. I did not know that I knew aught, or that I lived or acted or desired. I had neither will nor intellect.
https://scentofdawn.blogspot.com/2011/07/before-soul-dawn-he...
For instance, you can dream words.
And Islam the first verse was ‘read’
The first time I heard about emergent behavior in llms I thought about that.
Maybe thought is too much because I don’t have anything coherent in mind but it feels so captivating like the premise of sci-fi story.
In "Notes on the Synthesis of Form", Christopher Alexander talks about how we can know something is wrong even when we do not know how to make something right. He was talking about this I think
=z==
as opposed to
+|+|+
or
+|+|+|
I happened upon the word "entanglement" and it seems an interesting alternative to the order that is inherent in words.
Our language is all about Actor-verb-object. Entanglement provides a fundamentally different concept. I cannot say "I drove my car on the road" with entanglement. Or at least with entanglement I can say something equally valid like "the road moved my car with me inside."
And entanglement works for the + and | things, at least for me. There is some kind of entanglement (degree) that creates a gestalt.
At least that is the best I can come up with.
Is there a correct way to cognize? And although he feels cognizing works in a very specific direction, his brain is basically doing a very similar guessing game on a deep level with training of pathways that started at birth. Basing the argument in a feeling about consciousness is not convincing.
The author thinks they are describing a unique human magic, forgetting Augustine's insight that human thought doesn't precede the word, but is brought into consciousness by it.
You can perhaps have a consciousness without words, but not without language.
"An LLM predicts the next word based on all the words before it. That is the whole story. There is no idea sitting underneath. The words are everything."
This is just flat out wrong.
Words are used as training data, to build a system of vector embeddings. The LLM contains no words. That was the training data long discarded.
Vector embeddings are groupings of meanings derived from the relationship between the words in its training data. This entire system is modelled after human neural mechanisms in a way that machines can emulate.
"But your brain works the other way around. First there is a concept, a feeling, an image, and then the words come out to describe it. (At least, this is how I feel my own brain working.) For us, words are the byproduct of consciousness."
It's working the same way around (you are not saying Ai has consciousness that is derived from words!). And you make a huge jump from the concept that 'words come from concepts' to 'words are the byproduct of consciousness'. Because 'concepts' are not equal to 'consciousness'.
In fact you do not define consciousness at all, making it hard to determine what argument you are actually making at all. You seem to think humans have this trait of 'consciousness' but can't explain or evidence it beyond 'feeling it'.
Consciousness it defined by many as the ability to experience events and process thoughts or qualia. It's hard to test this, and we can see why that is with an AI - it may claim to be conscious, or even claim not to be, but how can we trust either answer? Philosophers aren't even sure to trust another human who claims to be conscious, and we struggle constantly to determine at what point creatures the animal kingdom are conscious or not. Cats? Lobsters? Snails? or even across the plants?
Before you can refute the consciousness of AI, first establish the consciousness of humans. A better question to ask is what does the uncanny emergent ability of an AI to mimic a human say about consciousness?
Let's take a feral human, do they achieve the same with language powered humans? No, obviously. It means language does something we can't replace with "consciousness". Maybe something life preserving, putting consciousness downstream of language use.
But more generally - how can 8B humans make a living on this planet? Not without language, that is for sure! We long passed the stage where we could exist without language at our consumption rate. We can't even exist without math, population collapse would be the outcome.
Minds are downstream from language & math. For example, is music downstream of piano or piano downstream of music? I think you can't cut this cleanly. They developed in relation to the other, recursion between tool and art form is already old.
I am actually using LLMs to perform controlled experiments to determine if the opposite is true, and that consciousness is a byproduct of language as Jaynes might have agreed.
"Let me rephrase these last couple of sentences without using the slightly technical term "isomorphism". When a system of "meaningless" symbols has patterns in it that accurately track, or mirror, various phenomena in the world, then that tracking or mirroring imbues the symbols with some degree of meaning - indeed, such tracking or mirroring is no less and no more than what meaning is. Depending on how complex and subtle and reliable the tracking is, different degrees of meaningfulness arise." - P-3
EDIT: I initially wrote "G.E.B." instead of "Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid" which was too cryptic.
Have the last-generation LLM pre-screen new training data for the next generation LLM.
After this I can't take the essay seriously- this sort of blanket statement about the one true hierarchy of consciousness and knowledge is BS.
While it seems to have been disproven that words in other languages cause people to speak and think differently, that also doesn't mean that words don't have any effect on the way we think, or that the concept of a word always has to come before the word itself.
The reason why we experience the uncanny valley of LLMs is because they don't represent a true consciousness, BUT it's also clear that the architecture represents certain qualities of consciousness- as the models have scaled we can see that it has some other non-word related understanding.
The evidence points to consciousness as a set of interlocking systems- attention, long term memory, short term memory, emotions, etc.