Ask HN: Why about a third of the submissions become dead in mere minutes?

2 points by g-b-r ↗ HN
If you check the newest submissions right now (https://news.ycombinator.com/newest), ten out of 30 are already dead, some only sent five minutes ago.

On the second page, it's 9. On the third, 11.

It seems unlikely that many people are downvoting them so quickly, and for most I can't see why they should be dead.

I know that there's websites known to publish only AI slop which are probably blacklisted here, but it seems unlikely that a third of the submissions are about them.

There's some automatic AI filter now?

How does it work, and are people assumed to check all recent dead posts and vouch for them if they don't deserve to be dead?

I imagine that the wide majority of users assume there's a good reason for something to be dead, and ignore it rather than performing that check.

36 comments

[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 57.9 ms ] thread
Most are actually spam, slop, or obvious self promotion.
Did you actually check the current ones?

Since dead posts are only shown to logged in users we can't even use archive.org to check the reliability of the flagging

Yes and I browse with showdead on to vouch for reasonable items.

Currently on new for dead/flagged: new account self spam / new account zero effort ai slop spam / new account zero effort ai slop spam / show hn ai slop with all default llm design / spam / spam / spam / account that has never posted anything but its own blog / spam (all of dev.to is dead afaik, because it is nothing but a spam source; there are no useful posts on it)

There is nothing that I consider even slightly interesting or reasonable or innovative to hackers. I am also not anti-gen AI but there is a line between "person has used claude to create something" and "literal zero-effort unreviewed trash that is a waste of the environment". >99% of ones I'm see in /new is the latter.

Ok, a link like https://news.ycombinator.com/newest?next=48799132&n=31 (the current second page) is actually stable, so let's do a a review of that.

The two submissions from bamei2ai are not working links, so no questions about them.

Most of the others are from new or very low karma accounts, ok, but is it forbidden to submit something before having gained a good karma? Are submissions from such accounts killed automatically?

The only dead post left is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48798889 , I'm not sure what's wrong about it

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Greater transparency would be great. This is a wonderful attempt to look at the guts of the HNN machine.

The submission queue definitely gets gamified - self promoting articles seem to get a massive surge of upvotes suggesting a kind of bot farm.

Enquiring minds wanna no.

HN is not a place that encourages transparency.

They only allow you to read what they want you to read.

Please email the mods when you see voting rings so they can investigate and adapt. Complaining about voting rings in a comment from a sockpuppet account is not a useful form of participation.
Sock puppet account ?

And who are these mods of whom you speak? And what is their email address?

I see the effects of what can only be voting rings. I don't see voting rings.

And, what the fuck, I went up to the 800 newest submission without finding a single flagged but not yet dead submission???
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No, if they do get flagged [flagged] alone is shown, initially.

And you can't vouch for them until they're dead, by the way, another nice detail (in the meanwhile they are removed from the front pages).

I tend to report by email rather than flag when something is egregious, because a single user’s flag tends to have no effect, and /new is so incredibly prolific right now that the chances of enough users flagging something that it gets marked [flagged] rather than simply never reaching the front page at all is vanishingly small.
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> To the extent it is important to someone they will do it. To the extent it is not, they won’t

Who here knows that it's something you're supposed to do, if you are?

I imagine that each new submission is seen at most by a handful of people, by the way, on average probably too few to resuscitate a dead one.

And I hope we can get an actual answer to how does it work.

> Most pages on the internet are not a good fit for HN

Most pages on the internet are not submitted to HN

something you're supposed to do, if you are?

Nothing is preventing anyone who feels it is important from doing it to the degree they feel that importance.

And I hope we can get an actual answer to how does it work.

The way it is is probably the best approximation of how it is supposed to work.

To feel that it's important they'd need to be told that Hacker News expects them to do it (if it does)

> The way it is is probably the best approximation of how it is supposed to work

Sure

This has been the case for years. Many accounts and domains are hellbanned so their submissions are automatically killed. Most of these are spam of various kinds.

I read /newest almost every day and vouch for submissions that I think have been unfairly killed but that's almost never.

Because they are feeding titles into classification function and based on what they don't like which they've established before, they kill the post before anyone can see it. NH is criminal and they'll never release the source code because they will be punished for what they're doing.
Curation and moderation aren't "criminal," and HN doesn't release their fork of Arc Forums because it contains business code for YC that would be a hassle to get rid of, but the original is open source. People come here because they want that high barrier to entry for content. If you just want a firehose of random shit go to Reddit.
For those not aware - in your profile you can turn on showdead option that shows you dead submissions & dead comments.
But don't turn on the noprocrast option;) I did it today and had to wait for 3 hours:)
My submission was killed immediately. It took me weeks to build the product and days to polish the documentation. At one point, I even went 24 hours without sleep working on it—only to have the submission killed instantly.

I emailed @dang at hn@ycombinator.com but never heard back. What should I do now? I’m scared to repost because I don’t want to risk a permanent ban.

I guess HN has become an AI/vs human battleground:)
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My experiences and observations of the moderation on HN is that there doesn’t usually seem to be an unreasonable response to real people trying to engage in a genuine manner.

If you are a real person trying to show something that you made, I wouldn’t worry about getting permanently banned without recourse and just post again, sometimes mistakes happen.

> My submission was killed immediately. It took me weeks to build the product and days to polish the documentation.

You have <200 karma on an account created 3300 days ago, and I see months-long plus gaps in your participation this year alone, with almost no appreciation or replies from others. You’ve posted the same repository link twice today so far in comments on other posts. So it doesn’t seem like you’re much invested in being in this community, except to promote your brand slash project slash self, and the algorithms would likely take that into account when considering and killing your links. The mods can make a judgment call exception, and you’ve emailed them already so nothing more to do there. (If you hadn’t already emailed them, I likely would have reported you by email to them as a self-link forum spammer, so that saves me bringing you to their attention, too.)

> What should I do now?

Participate genuinely on HN on topics unrelated to whatever self-links you want to post, without referring to yourself, your projects, your businesses. Not because some algorithm might be counting your comments — and anyways, I assume if such exists, it counts unflagged comment net-upvotes that aren’t in marked flamewar or offtopic threads! — but because if you treat this community as a drive-by bulletin board to staple your flier to and move on, we’ll usually just ignore or tear down your flier (with user flags) and move on.

> I emailed @dang at hn@ycombinator.com but never heard back. What should I do now?

I emailed the mods at hn@ this weekend five or six times about various issues (this is about my typical weekly email volume to them) and, unusually, haven’t yet heard back, except in one case and it was a super easy one with a super brief reply; presumably there’s competing concerns with YC/HN/IRL as is sometimes the case and I imagine they’ll catch up eventually.

> I’m scared to repost

That’s an appropriate reaction. Barring a change in participation, I would definitely not try to circumvent the algorithms until the mods reply to your email or a few months has passed.

Um, I am also new here. This makes me kinda scared how I will ever be able to post something under /show - I really don't know much about HN yet. Would it ever be allowed that I can ask for feedback for my beta project here? That's what I actually hoped for.
The person I’m replying to posted three or more links to their project in unrelated threads in 24 hours or less. Presumably you will not be quite so aggressive :)

Show HN has been absolutely flooded since generative code AIs became popular, so if the site lets you post a Show HN, then you’re generally welcome to once. If nothing comes of that, best wait a while (like, weeks) while you continue participating.

(I’m not a mod, if dang/tomhow show up and comment then whatever they say takes precedence.)

Oh well, didn't know that. Yea, there is already a hard barrier now before you're even allowed to post something. I will try to participate. Been missing out on HN for way too long it seems. Def. don't want to post any AI slob :D Thanks for reply though
Actually, my mornings start with reading HN; I am more of a reader than a writer :) But I see your point: if you find it useful, then repay it with a contribution.

I agree on the repo link as well; it was indeed selfish on my side. HN is one of the few places where you can read human content, so let's keep it that way. Lesson completely learned on my side.

Communicating with mods about issues could be a good idea too, but I shall keep it to a minimum. Apparently, they are super busy fighting AI :)

Yeah, if you have a long lurker history, that makes it difficult to assess whether your intentions are genuine or not. I lack visibility into ‘voting’ participation levels as a normal user. That’s why I ask the mods to review things (and beg people to email them rather than post mod questions as post comments!) rather than, in nearly all circumstances anyways, asking for a specific mod outcome. They know far better than we do what the full circumstances are.