This only seems to be standard overground trains. If you add in metro networks like the London tube, or light rail / trams like in Manchester, then you’d get at least hundreds more.
The map includes metros across the Tyne and Wear Metro in NE England, and while its not perfect, it's by far the most useful train live tracking I've ever seen. There's quite a few places in the UK with different rail systems that don't fit together (and have apps of varying quality/usefulness)
> Signalbox's technology identifies the train a device is on by matching a snapshot of smartphone data to a train’s trajectory data. The technology uses advanced algorithms works even with severely degraded data. We are able to pinpoint a smartphone to any type of train without background location tracking or hardware.
"Acquired by Trainline in 2023, Signalbox works with organisations across the rail ecosystem to improve customer information and operational awareness."
So, we don't know if this is the case, but one way to do this is not to ask the phones but the cells. The mobile network has to know where the phones are by cell; the cells are often small relative to the speed of the train; there are also cells installed specifically to improve service on trains, or provide a base station to the train wifi, or for communications to railway staff.
If you get a bunch of phones switching cell near simultaneously, you can tell that a train movement across the cell boundary has probably happened. Then correlate that with the other data feed about train blocks, and bob's your uncle.
You're missing the fact that the system is also divided into explicit signal blocks and those blocks do report train presence to a centralized system[1]. I am not certain if they want to share that information, but if someone got serious about building a system like signalbox I'd expect that NetworkRail would either offer their data, a degraded version of their data on a lag for security reasons, or consider those security reasons so serious that they'd attempt to prohibit deriving that data from cell signals.
1. Mostly, some signal blocks are still entirely manually managed but, IIRC, at this point those manually managed segments are low traffic areas where only one train is allowed into the block group at a time even if the old signal management systems would allow multiple trains.
Before he was hired by a San Diego-based defense contractor, my maternal grandfather worked on the railroads as a pipe-fitter, and he designed and built for me a high-quality Lionel model railroad in his home, before he passed away. I was only six years old.
This year, I was curious about whether I could track freight trains in my region or nearby, in real-time, and perhaps more details like what sort of cars were linked in the train, how many locomotives, what sort of freight they were carrying, etc.
After a few fruitless searches for this tracking info, I realized that the same info that would be "recreational" for me would be "operationally valuable" to any domestic terrorist cell or motivated insurrectionist, as well.
Trains derail all the time, we are told, and trains are robbed blind increasingly often, so I am sure there is some sort of illicit/underground tracking that takes place already, but for now, I must content myself with noticing trains using my own eyes and ears. And thankfully, I find freight-train and light-rail noise to be calming and soothing, even at 3:30am...
It works fairly well empirically: my 7yo likes to watch trains and we regularly use this map to know when to expect one to pass. Not perfect, but pretty good
Note that carto.tchoo does not provide real position in real-time: it only has access to departures, stops, delays and suppressions and interpolate position based on this.
This means that if your train is running at half-speed or stopped but does not result in an official delay, the position will not match reality.
Is the interesting part the upvotes, meaning there's more people interested in UK train networks than French ones ? And it's a comment on demographics ?
Or is the interesting part that the UK one is real-time, and the French one isn't (or at least, zooming in, I don't see them moving).
It may simply be that the language of HN is English, so more people here are, in fact, interested in UK train networks. The moving bits on this site are guesstimated based on schedules and delays and not based on real position information.
I remember my colleague from MFF UK, Robert Babilon, producing his first real-time map of Czech trains in 2004.
The page, called Babitron, still exists and still keeps that delightful 2004 look. I visited it a few days ago. Unfortunately today there is a message "We are moving Babitron to a different server", so the link isn't working.
very cool. Unrelated but anytime im looking at a map be it city roads, rails subway, etc i wish there was a way to filter the layers based on construction date.
I would like to be able to see when each road/section was built. I assume with GoogleEarth and other databases it should be possible to run some kind changelog comparison and do this at scale for at least the last 20 years or so.
I could also throw in Manx Railways, which are historic heritage lines, but there are at least three railway lines there that are mostly used by tourists and some commuters.
Like I say, the Manx government is not British when it suits it (offshore banking) but is British when it does suit it (defence). Their relationship is complicated, and often contradictory.
Apart from the Commonwealth Games, there is little effort to set up a proper national sporting infrastructure like the Faroe Islands have. Their football team does not get out much and if they have a national rugby side I've never heard of it.
It's a reference to the murder of Henry Nowak, a sad example of knife crime which exists in the uk, and of individual police officers who failed to render basic first aid.
The family not only lost their son, but then had to see his name used to further the global hatred of the farage types
Not affiliated with the site, but it's almost certainly just the Train Describer feed from Network Rail to observe headcodes stepping through berths, and then doing some proprietary interpolation within berths to guess where the trains are, probably using fairly coarse inputs like train class, rolling stock type and line speed. It's possible it's not even doing that, and they have just built a model that observes typical passage times between berths and they average that out.
TRUST (reporting system that describes train movements as they've happened) does accept updates by means other than the Train Describer, which might include GPS if the unit is equipped, and in many areas is dependent on signallers making manual reports (which may not be made immediately). They might also use TRUST as a data source, especially in non-Track Circuit Block areas. The rate of GPS updates is not going to be anywhere near as frequent as those train position indicators that appear to move here in "real time" across the map, so however they combine data sources, their site is trying to be clever in guessing train location.
It goes without saying: this sort of map is highly likely to be wildly inaccurate and isn't useful for anything safety-critical.
suggests the data mostly comes from railway signalling information, plus a bit of "AI" in some way. I wonder how far apart railway signals usually are, or what the AI is trained on, or anything really vs just looking at a map.
> I wonder how far apart railway signals usually are
It varies substantially across the network, dependent on the mode of operation of the signalling, the desired headway, the maximum operating speed, the service braking distance of the rolling stock at line speed, factors in the layout that might influence safety (e.g. junctions), the number of colour lights used on signal heads (i.e. 2, 3 or 4 colour lights), signal sighting distance, whether signal visibility might be affected by sun glare, etc. And of course this assumes that the area is actually using line-side signals – most of the network does, but there's notable exceptions using in-cab signalling or computer-based train control.
> suggests the data mostly comes from railway signalling information, plus a bit of "AI" in some way
I'm in no way affiliated with the website, but in areas that follow track circuit block principles (much of the heavily-used main GB railway network, excluding many more lightly-used outlying lines), the "signalling information" that article indicates the site derives from is almost certainly Network Rail's Train Describer (TD) feed. This feed reports the headcodes for signalling berths across the layout. The signalling system will normally step headcodes automatically as the train activates successive track circuits or operates axle counters in the track.
The Train Describer can only report headcodes in berths, and berths might be quite long! It certainly doesn't provide second-by-second train progress, so this site's mapping engine is likely doing some proprietary interpolation to make the train position indicators appear to "move" in real time to give the illusion of trains making progress. (Whatever the inputs to their algorithm/model are, their calling it "AI" loses all technical specificity.) This interpolation may be based on line speed, perhaps the observed average time a headcode normally remains in a given berth, allowing them to derive a typical 'average speed' for that berth or section.
If it was me designing this, I'd expect a mixture of the train class, the rolling stock and line speed to give a good estimator of the train's current position in block. You then have to make a product decision to decide what to do if you miscalculated train position – do you make staccato jumps of the train position indicators on the map if you got it wrong, or do you somehow try to smooth your error out over another period to avoid indicators suddenly moving?
In other areas of the country, train position may be reported by GPS on equipped units, or in some areas, the passage of trains is dependent on manual reports by the signaller, so the map may not have much real-time data to infer train position from. I find it highly unlikely that they're deriving much accurate data in real time from smartphone apps, but it could be a (noisy, incomplete) set of inputs to improve their model of how trains typically make progress through particular berths.
I've tried building one of these and the answer is - it's difficult.
There is a message queue that you can use to identify the last reported location of a train. Depending on the line you could get a pretty accurate real-time map (but first you need to georeference all of the location identifiers to eastings/northings.)
But many lines report only the last movement at a station stop - these are mostly in rural areas so the best approach seems to be to build some sort of dead-reckoning network taking into account train type and network utilisation.
A couple of obvious observations:
* Does not include Northern Ireland or the Isle of Man, both of which have notable rail networks (as they are not in GB).
* Does not include heritage railways. There are a number of other railways on here which are not marked but offer tourist travel.
NI gets slightly messy; do you include the Enterprise service to Dublin? If so, only the ones run by Translink, or also the ones run by Irish Rail? (The Dublin-Belfast service is a particularly weird train service in that it has _two_ operators, with joint ownership of the rolling stock).
You can also buy tickets from either operator, but you have to buy tickets from the operator in the country that you're leaving (even if they're return tickets). This leads to the interesting situation where a Dublin->Belfast->Dublin return journey a couple of weeks out costs 28EUR, but a Belfast->Dublin->Belfast return journey on the same day costs 30GBP (~35EUR).
And if you're over 65 and live in Northern Ireland, you can use it for free, but you have to be over 66 to use it for free if you live in the Republic of Ireland.
NI gets very messy! They had so many lines once and between the Troubles and cuts, they lost many of them. (The cross-border canal system was even more neglected.) The NI trains run on a different gauge from here (this came up yesterday when someone was talking about the possibility of a train between Scotland and there.
The train to Dublin is way slower than it should be. The trains within the Republic tend to be much better. That said, Letterkenny's most logical rail connection would be to Derry just due to the lay of the land.
(The Rail 2050 plan plans to bring it dow further to 90 minutes, and up the frequency to once every 30 mins from once an hour, but that's fairly speculative at this point.)
- So for some stations (most?) it shows that all trains go to the selected station, nowhere else.
- Also the search show only one station at a time instead of the multiple that could match the search. And even if we typed the whole station name, it might match another station, which mean the station is not selectable at all.
Thank you for your feedback. Saddly at this time the try out widget is not feature complete as the display. I may remove it completely as it gives a false impression of what the display can do.
I live next to a railway line so I'm in the (not particularly unique, and definitely not enviable) position to compare what's on the map to "IRL" trains, and I can tell you it's as good as useless.
- Trains appearing on the map that aren't anywhere to be seen on the tracks
- Trains on the tracks that don't appear on the map
- Trains moving away from the station that according to the timetable view shouldn't have left the station yet.
- Trains on the map seemingly stopping and changing direction, only to reverse course once again.
The map shows a single line segment for what is in fact a multi-line stretch of railway. That's okay as a simplification (I guess), but the icons aren't pinned to the line, so appear to be driving off the track, or even on the adjacent street.
As for realtime - even if the data was accurate and timely, a 2Hz refresh rate most definitely isn't realtime.
Sorry if it seems like I'm shitting on it - it's a fun toy, but I wouldn't depend on it for anything.
>it's a fun toy, but I wouldn't depend on it for anything important.
This could be said for the rail network as a whole.
Neglect and underinvestment over the last 60+ years has left it in a sorry state, and debacles such as HS2 show how government has no ability to deliver proper material upgrades to the ageing infrastructure and service. The direction of travel (scuse the pun) has been clear since the Beeching cuts: roads are the priority. Add to that Neoliberal divestment policies and we end up where we are today: overcrowded, filthy, ugly trains barely fit for cattle transport and chronically understaffed stations and train crews. Not to mention the extortionate prices for a ticket to travel on the network.
I adore rail travel, but dread the necessity of using it any time I go on a journey.
There's no way its input data is anywhere near adequate for the rate the position indicators refresh, so it's taking some base data and then just... guessing the rest.
I'm also close enough to a railway line to see the trains. There are two lines near us - a fast line (that I can see) and a slow line on the other side of the estate. The map showed a train moving (quickly) on the slow line, at just about the time I saw it fly past out my window. So it isn't even accurate as to which line the train is on.
Possibly useful as a funky station arrival board, but overlaying that data on an actual map is a bit misleading.
Dutch (and Dutch-bound) rail network overview: https://treinposities.nl/
And the equivalent for buses: https://busposities.nl/
Not all of them have GPS trackers, so some positions are guessed.
There's functionality for this in the official Dutch Railways app, but it looks like they didn't bother putting that onto their website. There is a common source of open data for most of these details, but I don't find the docs to be very complete.
124 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 90.2 ms ] threadHmm, that's...interesting?
https://www.signalbox.io/news/southeastern-launches-track-my...
If you get a bunch of phones switching cell near simultaneously, you can tell that a train movement across the cell boundary has probably happened. Then correlate that with the other data feed about train blocks, and bob's your uncle.
Only about 50% of trains have wifi: https://www.businesstravelnewseurope.com/Ground-Transport/UK... ; but it's easy to imagine getting the mobile hotspot on the train to share its GPS location as well.
1. Mostly, some signal blocks are still entirely manually managed but, IIRC, at this point those manually managed segments are low traffic areas where only one train is allowed into the block group at a time even if the old signal management systems would allow multiple trains.
though interpreting it isn't the easiest thing in the world...
This year, I was curious about whether I could track freight trains in my region or nearby, in real-time, and perhaps more details like what sort of cars were linked in the train, how many locomotives, what sort of freight they were carrying, etc.
After a few fruitless searches for this tracking info, I realized that the same info that would be "recreational" for me would be "operationally valuable" to any domestic terrorist cell or motivated insurrectionist, as well.
Trains derail all the time, we are told, and trains are robbed blind increasingly often, so I am sure there is some sort of illicit/underground tracking that takes place already, but for now, I must content myself with noticing trains using my own eyes and ears. And thankfully, I find freight-train and light-rail noise to be calming and soothing, even at 3:30am...
The relatively benign kind though. They use it to figure out congestion and station use etc
Past similar HN submission got no attention, whereas the UK's top page. Interesting !
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45249351
This means that if your train is running at half-speed or stopped but does not result in an official delay, the position will not match reality.
https://maps.trafimage.ch/ch.sbb.netzkarte?lang=en&baselayer...
Or is the interesting part that the UK one is real-time, and the French one isn't (or at least, zooming in, I don't see them moving).
The page, called Babitron, still exists and still keeps that delightful 2004 look. I visited it a few days ago. Unfortunately today there is a message "We are moving Babitron to a different server", so the link isn't working.
https://kam.mff.cuni.cz/~babilon/zpmapa2
I would like to be able to see when each road/section was built. I assume with GoogleEarth and other databases it should be possible to run some kind changelog comparison and do this at scale for at least the last 20 years or so.
Basically all of Europe, with varying levels of detail.
https://mapa.zsr.sk/index.aspx
And Polish one, still a gen or two behind just like their rail network. It needs to be said they are investing heavily to bring it up to scratch.
https://portalpasazera.pl/MapaPociagow
Apart from the Commonwealth Games, there is little effort to set up a proper national sporting infrastructure like the Faroe Islands have. Their football team does not get out much and if they have a national rugby side I've never heard of it.
The family not only lost their son, but then had to see his name used to further the global hatred of the farage types
(probably an inappropriate place for a joke, but at least it's about trains)
Of course the black people were let go. After all, they did nothing wrong, they just assaulted a white guy.
TRUST (reporting system that describes train movements as they've happened) does accept updates by means other than the Train Describer, which might include GPS if the unit is equipped, and in many areas is dependent on signallers making manual reports (which may not be made immediately). They might also use TRUST as a data source, especially in non-Track Circuit Block areas. The rate of GPS updates is not going to be anywhere near as frequent as those train position indicators that appear to move here in "real time" across the map, so however they combine data sources, their site is trying to be clever in guessing train location.
It goes without saying: this sort of map is highly likely to be wildly inaccurate and isn't useful for anything safety-critical.
https://vgcgroup.co.uk/news/signalbox-for-train-locations/
suggests the data mostly comes from railway signalling information, plus a bit of "AI" in some way. I wonder how far apart railway signals usually are, or what the AI is trained on, or anything really vs just looking at a map.
It varies substantially across the network, dependent on the mode of operation of the signalling, the desired headway, the maximum operating speed, the service braking distance of the rolling stock at line speed, factors in the layout that might influence safety (e.g. junctions), the number of colour lights used on signal heads (i.e. 2, 3 or 4 colour lights), signal sighting distance, whether signal visibility might be affected by sun glare, etc. And of course this assumes that the area is actually using line-side signals – most of the network does, but there's notable exceptions using in-cab signalling or computer-based train control.
> suggests the data mostly comes from railway signalling information, plus a bit of "AI" in some way
I'm in no way affiliated with the website, but in areas that follow track circuit block principles (much of the heavily-used main GB railway network, excluding many more lightly-used outlying lines), the "signalling information" that article indicates the site derives from is almost certainly Network Rail's Train Describer (TD) feed. This feed reports the headcodes for signalling berths across the layout. The signalling system will normally step headcodes automatically as the train activates successive track circuits or operates axle counters in the track.
The Train Describer can only report headcodes in berths, and berths might be quite long! It certainly doesn't provide second-by-second train progress, so this site's mapping engine is likely doing some proprietary interpolation to make the train position indicators appear to "move" in real time to give the illusion of trains making progress. (Whatever the inputs to their algorithm/model are, their calling it "AI" loses all technical specificity.) This interpolation may be based on line speed, perhaps the observed average time a headcode normally remains in a given berth, allowing them to derive a typical 'average speed' for that berth or section.
If it was me designing this, I'd expect a mixture of the train class, the rolling stock and line speed to give a good estimator of the train's current position in block. You then have to make a product decision to decide what to do if you miscalculated train position – do you make staccato jumps of the train position indicators on the map if you got it wrong, or do you somehow try to smooth your error out over another period to avoid indicators suddenly moving?
In other areas of the country, train position may be reported by GPS on equipped units, or in some areas, the passage of trains is dependent on manual reports by the signaller, so the map may not have much real-time data to infer train position from. I find it highly unlikely that they're deriving much accurate data in real time from smartphone apps, but it could be a (noisy, incomplete) set of inputs to improve their model of how trains typically make progress through particular berths.
There is a message queue that you can use to identify the last reported location of a train. Depending on the line you could get a pretty accurate real-time map (but first you need to georeference all of the location identifiers to eastings/northings.)
But many lines report only the last movement at a station stop - these are mostly in rural areas so the best approach seems to be to build some sort of dead-reckoning network taking into account train type and network utilisation.
You can also buy tickets from either operator, but you have to buy tickets from the operator in the country that you're leaving (even if they're return tickets). This leads to the interesting situation where a Dublin->Belfast->Dublin return journey a couple of weeks out costs 28EUR, but a Belfast->Dublin->Belfast return journey on the same day costs 30GBP (~35EUR).
And if you're over 65 and live in Northern Ireland, you can use it for free, but you have to be over 66 to use it for free if you live in the Republic of Ireland.
The train to Dublin is way slower than it should be. The trains within the Republic tend to be much better. That said, Letterkenny's most logical rail connection would be to Derry just due to the lay of the land.
There is, FWIW, a plan to improve that (https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2026/06/22/funding-to-cut...), though mostly on the Republic side of the border.
(The Rail 2050 plan plans to bring it dow further to 90 minutes, and up the frequency to once every 30 mins from once an hour, but that's fairly speculative at this point.)
- So for some stations (most?) it shows that all trains go to the selected station, nowhere else.
- Also the search show only one station at a time instead of the multiple that could match the search. And even if we typed the whole station name, it might match another station, which mean the station is not selectable at all.
- Trains appearing on the map that aren't anywhere to be seen on the tracks - Trains on the tracks that don't appear on the map - Trains moving away from the station that according to the timetable view shouldn't have left the station yet. - Trains on the map seemingly stopping and changing direction, only to reverse course once again.
The map shows a single line segment for what is in fact a multi-line stretch of railway. That's okay as a simplification (I guess), but the icons aren't pinned to the line, so appear to be driving off the track, or even on the adjacent street.
As for realtime - even if the data was accurate and timely, a 2Hz refresh rate most definitely isn't realtime.
Sorry if it seems like I'm shitting on it - it's a fun toy, but I wouldn't depend on it for anything.
This could be said for the rail network as a whole.
Neglect and underinvestment over the last 60+ years has left it in a sorry state, and debacles such as HS2 show how government has no ability to deliver proper material upgrades to the ageing infrastructure and service. The direction of travel (scuse the pun) has been clear since the Beeching cuts: roads are the priority. Add to that Neoliberal divestment policies and we end up where we are today: overcrowded, filthy, ugly trains barely fit for cattle transport and chronically understaffed stations and train crews. Not to mention the extortionate prices for a ticket to travel on the network.
I adore rail travel, but dread the necessity of using it any time I go on a journey.
Possibly useful as a funky station arrival board, but overlaying that data on an actual map is a bit misleading.
There's functionality for this in the official Dutch Railways app, but it looks like they didn't bother putting that onto their website. There is a common source of open data for most of these details, but I don't find the docs to be very complete.