My favorite finance podcast (actually, just favorite podcast) does a variety of episodes related to this, including deep dives on the academic literature. Some highlights:
There’s really not much question we are in a giant bubble that’s broadly been fueled by AI hype. The only serious question is how do we get out of it.
In a controlled scenario the AI sector gets a severe correction with many AI-focused companies wiped out but broader damage more limited. In an uncontrolled scenario the AI bubble bursts and takes the whole economy with it.
The likelihood of a scenario where suddenly the economics of AI suddenly start to make sense and enough $ flows in to make the present valuations defensible seems around 5% now and rapidly falling towards zero.
Bull markets are born out of skepticism. Everyone is fearful that there's a giant bubble so all eyes are on the fundamentals. When euphoria sets in, i.e. neighbors and co-workers start telling you how easy it is to make money on stocks, that's when you know you're at the top. We're not at the top and have seen multiple corrections/bear markets over the past 5-6 years.
Berkshire themselves have made investments into Google this year, a company at the center of this supposed "bubble"... make of it what you will but I think the market is setup to do pretty well in the near future.
I hope the general market will not drop by more than 25%-35%, while most AI companies will be wiped out.
I also expect Facebook, Microsoft, Google, to survive, and buy the good pieces that remains after the bubble popped. They each have income from other areas so are well position to survive the AI bubble.
Pure AI plays are the ones who will be annihilated. The best of the pure AI plays will be acquired by the old guard.
I would rename the title to “The Buffett Indicator shows an overvalued market”. For those curious of its definition (from the article):
> The Buffett Indicator, a ratio that measures the market cap of the entire stock market against the GDP of the United States, has hit a record of ~232%. Historically, anything above ~120% is a signal of the market being overvalued.
That being said, it’s not clear that the Buffet Indicator is fully relevant, as a lot of the US AI and AI hardware companies’ market caps which are driving the stock market valuation growth involve a significant portion of their revenue from outside the US, and thus this wouldn’t necessarily count fully to the US’s GDP (for example, tax entity workarounds for foreign obtained revenue).
We have a blooming oil war that could take chunks of the global economy with it, booming and teetering credit levels threatening collapse, the “AI” companies have a lot of tinkerbell magic and impossible returns needed to justify their stocks, major cash rich tech giants are suddenly hands-out pockets-out for big money, and … well: Elon is the worlds richest man/CEO who also shamelessly lies in public about being super great at a no-life action RPG he’s paying other people to play for him so he can look cool to his Twitter fans; Twitter is now maybe better understood as a market manipulation device; and Sam Altman seems distinctly truth challenged as a people pleaser who will tell you whatever numbers your wallet needs to hear… They are our 2026 IPO lords, trusted corporate leaders acting like extra shady manipulators.
I’m struggling because on the one hand, it seems like the time to hop out of the market, but on the other, whatever shady crap these guys do after it all goes ‘boom’ to save their wallets is only gonna reward people in the market.
It feels like gambling on whether they’re more incompetent or successfully corrupt.
The thing I worry about is: what happens when an actual set of adults get back into the White House?
That could well be the trigger for the crash of all crashes because they might actually bring some reality pins with them, which are the antithesis of the growing, in size and number, fantasy balloons of hot-air the current cough leadership cough is facilitating.
In a world where Tesla has stayed at "severely overvalued" stock prices for about a decade, with occasional crashes to just "overvalued", I'm not so sure the big AI companies really need returns that justify their stocks. Sam Altman and Dario Amodei are both in their own ways trying to capture that same lighting in a bottle where the company is evaluated solely on the CEO's vision
> “It feels like gambling on whether they’re more incompetent or successfully corrupt.”
What you say has a ring to it. A good idea held in tension—provided ‘incompetence’ is the true opposite extreme.
Though it’s difficult to see the picture clearly, because to all _appearances_ Musk is doing well. US Culture collectively believes incompetence will not succeed for long, and this undermines my assessment.
“Twitter is now maybe better understood as a market manipulation device.”
And there’s the obfuscation. If you can manipulate at large scale and your followers somehow profit by following you, then it’s not competence but “confidence”. It’s all a game and our group is waiting for their turn, their opportunity to profit, get a great tip, win big.
> on the other, whatever shady crap these guys do after it all goes ‘boom’ to save their wallets is only gonna reward people in the market
Yup. That's kind of my feeling. Are we in a bubble? Obviously. But the people who have the most to lose have never been more intertwined with the rule makers and have never been so shameless about it.
"Don't bet against the house" has never been more appropriate. We may well be on the verge of the 2nd Great Depression, but you can be damn sure that the last ones to lose will be the billionaires hanging out in the new ballroom. We'll be burning poor people for warmth before they allow the asset prices to collapse.
> The Buffett Indicator, a ratio that measures the market cap of the entire stock market against the GDP of the United States, has hit a record of ~232%. Historically, anything above ~120% is a signal of the market being overvalued.
So nearly 2x over-valued. A market correction would take that to ~0.5x possibly, so a loss (for those getting in now) of 75% is on the cards.
It seems like of the most outdated and inflexible indicators that's widely used though? Does not account that a much higher proportion of the US economy might be represented in the stock market and that US service companies are generating massive revenue outside of US (in some cases the majority). That wasn't the case 50 years ago.
This bubble will never burst. The big investors are feeding a leverage cycle and cannot afford to stop. In addition, corporate nepotism has taken hold - for example, AI firms(the current flavor of software) invest in hardware companies. Hardware companies make money as the AI firms buy their product. Hardware companies then take that money and in vest in AI firms. The 'free market' no longer looks at 'value' to assess prices. And as equity prices become a reflection of the algorithmic trading that AI is doing, we have no way of knowing when and if they will decline.
The big investors don't have control over the leverage cycle; the banks do. What kills a leveraged bubble is when banks won't lend any more for leveraged investments. Then leverage quits making the market go up. Then people realize that the market isn't going up constantly any more, and so a few get out. Then the market goes down a bit, and some people who are leveraged panic and get out. So the market goes down more, and a lot more people who are leveraged panic...
The big investors can do whatever they want. They don't have the final control here.
The conclusion I came to on this was to watch for indicators it’s not working out. Canceling these large capex projects is one. Meta scaling back on their compute recently eerily fits that indicator.
In fact anyone reading should ask fable about indicators and ai bubbles, I just did and it was startling!
Doom and gloom articles are what make people get out of the market in fear and lose in the long run.
An individual investor isn't in the same stock market as Berkshire. Their investments move prices and they can't just allocate 50K on a XYZ fund. They have to find multi billion single stock investments, and that's a completely different problem than what us poor mortals face.
Reminder: Jack Bogle, the man who popularized the index fund, democratized wealth accumulation, and made more millionaires than anyone in history, has a famous saying for those pondering this situation.
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[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 60.0 ms ] thread- "Do Expected Stock Returns Wear a CAPE": https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/146
- "What about Warren Buffet?": https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/335
In a controlled scenario the AI sector gets a severe correction with many AI-focused companies wiped out but broader damage more limited. In an uncontrolled scenario the AI bubble bursts and takes the whole economy with it.
The likelihood of a scenario where suddenly the economics of AI suddenly start to make sense and enough $ flows in to make the present valuations defensible seems around 5% now and rapidly falling towards zero.
Berkshire themselves have made investments into Google this year, a company at the center of this supposed "bubble"... make of it what you will but I think the market is setup to do pretty well in the near future.
I also expect Facebook, Microsoft, Google, to survive, and buy the good pieces that remains after the bubble popped. They each have income from other areas so are well position to survive the AI bubble.
Pure AI plays are the ones who will be annihilated. The best of the pure AI plays will be acquired by the old guard.
> The Buffett Indicator, a ratio that measures the market cap of the entire stock market against the GDP of the United States, has hit a record of ~232%. Historically, anything above ~120% is a signal of the market being overvalued.
That being said, it’s not clear that the Buffet Indicator is fully relevant, as a lot of the US AI and AI hardware companies’ market caps which are driving the stock market valuation growth involve a significant portion of their revenue from outside the US, and thus this wouldn’t necessarily count fully to the US’s GDP (for example, tax entity workarounds for foreign obtained revenue).
We have a blooming oil war that could take chunks of the global economy with it, booming and teetering credit levels threatening collapse, the “AI” companies have a lot of tinkerbell magic and impossible returns needed to justify their stocks, major cash rich tech giants are suddenly hands-out pockets-out for big money, and … well: Elon is the worlds richest man/CEO who also shamelessly lies in public about being super great at a no-life action RPG he’s paying other people to play for him so he can look cool to his Twitter fans; Twitter is now maybe better understood as a market manipulation device; and Sam Altman seems distinctly truth challenged as a people pleaser who will tell you whatever numbers your wallet needs to hear… They are our 2026 IPO lords, trusted corporate leaders acting like extra shady manipulators.
I’m struggling because on the one hand, it seems like the time to hop out of the market, but on the other, whatever shady crap these guys do after it all goes ‘boom’ to save their wallets is only gonna reward people in the market.
It feels like gambling on whether they’re more incompetent or successfully corrupt.
That could well be the trigger for the crash of all crashes because they might actually bring some reality pins with them, which are the antithesis of the growing, in size and number, fantasy balloons of hot-air the current cough leadership cough is facilitating.
What you say has a ring to it. A good idea held in tension—provided ‘incompetence’ is the true opposite extreme.
Though it’s difficult to see the picture clearly, because to all _appearances_ Musk is doing well. US Culture collectively believes incompetence will not succeed for long, and this undermines my assessment.
“Twitter is now maybe better understood as a market manipulation device.”
And there’s the obfuscation. If you can manipulate at large scale and your followers somehow profit by following you, then it’s not competence but “confidence”. It’s all a game and our group is waiting for their turn, their opportunity to profit, get a great tip, win big.
Yup. That's kind of my feeling. Are we in a bubble? Obviously. But the people who have the most to lose have never been more intertwined with the rule makers and have never been so shameless about it.
"Don't bet against the house" has never been more appropriate. We may well be on the verge of the 2nd Great Depression, but you can be damn sure that the last ones to lose will be the billionaires hanging out in the new ballroom. We'll be burning poor people for warmth before they allow the asset prices to collapse.
I may soon increase my 401k share of VTIAX.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/investing/stocks-shares/go...
So nearly 2x over-valued. A market correction would take that to ~0.5x possibly, so a loss (for those getting in now) of 75% is on the cards.
In the aftermarth of 2008 it bottomed out about 70%, similar after the dot-com crash in 2000. Before 1995 those were "bubble peaks"
I'm not convinced "historically" means anything in a globalised world that's very different to 50 years ago
in the best case scenario the government backstops it via money printing but that's just distributing the pain to the little guys
the destruction still happens
The big investors can do whatever they want. They don't have the final control here.
In fact anyone reading should ask fable about indicators and ai bubbles, I just did and it was startling!
Isn't that just lazy?
Even if the market is overheated, there will be opportunities in non-overheated areas/other countries/distressed companies etc?
Unless they are sure of a crash and need funds to buy on the cheap.
An individual investor isn't in the same stock market as Berkshire. Their investments move prices and they can't just allocate 50K on a XYZ fund. They have to find multi billion single stock investments, and that's a completely different problem than what us poor mortals face.
“Nobody knows nothing.”