Ask HN: A place like HN but with more nerdy stuff and less social stuff?

238 points by Xcelerate ↗ HN
Is there a website out there that's more technical than HN, has less negativity, and leaves out the "social" aspects of technology?

What I'm looking for is a site where I can discuss things like:

-Programming language design (functional languages, different type systems, point-free style, etc...)

-Interesting mathematics (deeper understanding of statistics, implications of Godel's incompleteness theorem)

-Interesting science (advances in quantum mechanics, optical gyroscopes, etc.)

-Other technical oddities (Turing complete systems, global illumination on GPUs, supercomputing)

-News on start-ups that solve technical rather than social problems (DE Shaw instead of Socialcam)

I'd like to avoid:

-Tech products

-Heated arguments that make me feel bad after reading the comments instead of enlightened

176 comments

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If you ever find this site, let me know. HN is this closest site to what you're looking for that I can think of. We could possibly improve on this by adding subsections, but then that would just turn into reddit.
Maybe not subsections, but allow users to create and up-vote tags on stories, or maybe have a simple dropdown on story submission with a dozen or so tags the submitter could apply. That way you could still narrow your focus when you don't want to miss certain content (ex. #Python, #AI, #Business, etc. at news.ycombinator.com/tagged/Python, etc.), but you wouldn't disrupt the current community feel of HN too much.
Can I get an invite, please? Email in profile.

EDIT: Got it. Thanks. (So no one double-sends)

just sent invite..
could i have one? my email id is siamoreslr@gmail.com
(comment deleted)
Wouldn't mind an invite myself. While I was wandering the site I thought I had a break through idea only to discover that such a thing already existed. What I wanted was the pushd (dos command---dating myself) Then I realized that if I only would right click on a link and open it in a new window, then I have exactly what I want :)
One thing is they show scores on comments, as HN used to do. I really miss that.
http://lobste.rs seems like exactly what you want. It's a good community, give it a try
reminds me of http://hackful.eu - good links, good idea, good intentions, but almost no engagement, and the only link with more than 3 comments is a meta-discussion.
It is slower paced, for sure. I kind of find that pleasant though (like drinking a coffee and reading the paper). Seems to make me focus more on the linked content, and less on the discussions.
but then it's not a community, it's more of a link aggregator.
There was a (surprise!) meta-thread about that, seems some people are happy using the site as a link resource.

Me, I prefer to have discussions, but it's been tough going. I'm optimistic but it may take a while.

Last time lobste.rs was mentioned on HN there was an influx of people, but the only noticeable effect was that there were more submissions and slightly higher average submission up-vote numbers. Commenting seem to stay about the same.

It's still growing. Development is active, people post plenty of interesting stories. Commenting is slowly increasing. These things take time, and the core group of posters are still posting links on a daily basis which is what a nascent community needs to survive the initial "lull".

I'm very hopeful for Lobsters.

I wanted to register, but there is no link. it's some exclusive club?
It's invite-only, but you don't need an account to read it.
Quoting from the original "about" post:

>Invitations

>Not for exclusivity, but rather, invitations will be used as a spam-control mechanism. New users must be invited by a current member and invitations will be unlimited (unless scaling problems temporarily prevent new accounts). If spammers are invited to the site and banned, the user that invited them may also be banned, going up the chain of invitations as needed.

https://lobste.rs/s/bkeYe9/about_lobsters

ah, ok, I get it. got the invite, signed up.
on the topic, I dare ask for an invite to lobste.rs if someone has one lying around. I promise I won't be an ass.

(Cause a week ago I reached the threshold of wanting to leave a comment enough times)

invite just sent..
thanks, also to the other people who invited me. Too bad, invites don't show up as a graph :)
I'd appreciate an invite too, if you still have any and are willing to share.

jerod dot santo at gmail dot com

Been hanging out at Lobsters for a while. Any chance I could get an invite too? Thanks! :)
I'd love an invite too :)

edit: thanks polyfractal!

hey, would love one as well http://scr.im/ambros. Thanks in advance!
You're making it awfully hard to get your Email address.
indeed, must admit it's a silly idea (especially when I'm the one asking a favor :)

ambros at gmail.

Can you send me one as well? albzey@gmail.com

Thanks in advance!

(comment deleted)
Speaking of Lobste.rs, has anyone an invitation? That'd be amazing.
Yes! Would love an invite to Lobste.rs too please. Looks excellent. (Don't have an invite as of 7pm EST 12/15).
To me some parts of stackoverflow might appear interesting to you.
Rather http://stackexchange.com/sites (as a side note, I've just made a map of their sites, here http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/157976/map-of-all-se... with a discussion, code on GitHub). There are very dedicated communities, from TeX to gardening.

The good thing is that there are great (just IMHO).

The bad thing is that, not everything fits in the question-and-answer scheme. There are many interesting subject, which are:

open-ended,

or requiring polling,

or - brainstorming.

Also, not every topic is covered, but it that case you can create your own SE site (with http://area51.stackexchange.com/); just it takes time and effort to gather the critical mass (at least 200, usually - much more).

I have a somewhat radical, sadly not novel suggestion: build what you're looking for.

I now have a semi-private "HN Reader" which has completely broken my HN habit while still feeding me stuff I might be interested in. Because I built it, I can make it do anything I want. I've started to turn it into a slightly broader search engine so that I can find the things that I'm looking for; I got sick of seeing search engines brag about the hundreds-of-thousands or millions of search results they were returning when I was trying to find something (really, what's the point of that?), so I'm building my own. I got sick of feeding some psychological trigger in my brain that made me nervously check the HN front page numerous times throughout the day, and I'd find myself clicking on items that had lots of comments and activity even if the subject was something I wasn't interested in. I guess I was thinking, "wow, lots of people over there, I should go check that out."

What did it for me was a bit of foggy nostalgia one day. I was thinking about "the good ol' days", how I -- we, all of us if we were lucky enough to be born at the right time in the right environment -- used to modify the crap of out of programs, change their interface, tweak their colors, cheat at games even when we were the only ones playing. We used to take things we didn't like and turn them into things we did like.

But nobody, or very few people, do that for the web, even though there are piles and piles of tools that make it easy and doable.

So I did it.

And it is glorious.

It's some of the most fun I've had at programming in years. Now when I'm feeling like a wet cat, I'll just go tweak my little reader-search-engine-toy, and then I feel better. Now I never feel like I'm missing out on something on HN, because my little toy is keeping an eye on it for me and saving the stuff I might care about it.

And if you're looking for a new community ... well, build that too! It's clear from numerous threads on HN and other places that people are ready for something new. Make what you want, share it if you feel like, if enough other people like it maybe they'll join in and you'll have your community.

Sounds interesting, can you give us more details on how it works? I had a quick look at your homepage, but couldn't see any links for it, or a github profile.
And if you build the next HN, please add an API
What are the main reasons you want an API?
I guess something like the possibility to have a mobile application (either web based or native app) which would be usable (the tiny up- and down-vote arrows of HN are not easy to use using a finger on a touchscreen) and which would actually work by not relying on html-parsing or search kludge.
>> I guess something like the possibility to have a mobile application

See http://ihackernews.com/

That's a website not a mobile application.
>> mobile application (either web based or native app)
If you have an iPhone, there's news:yc. Great reader. Not perfect, but the best I found so far.
Building more powerful clients for desktop and mobile. Think user tagging, comment filtering, custom sort order, interface improvements.
I really like that HN still has such an old, simple interface. It's one of the reasons I haven't left yet.
About a decade ago I noticed this phenomena.

Worthwhile communities need to be maintained by barriers. The kind of barrier that I personally enjoy most is, "Crappy enough interface that only people who really like the content will be motivated to show up."

Yep. No magic tricks. Just substance.
I think it just correlates with the presence if images. Also StackExchanges have excellent UIs, APIs and still very good content. StackOverflow itself could also be worse.
That is a good comparison. StackOverflow has a good API, but maintains itself with carefully thought through and zealously enforced moderation rules.

I grant the existence of useful content there and a good API. However after one too many brushes with how differently moderators think about stuff than the people who I liked talking to did, I have demonstrated the truth of my comment by choosing to leave.

StackOverflow works for a lot of people. But for me, personally, a stripped down interface and less moderation is a better experience.

Never really thought of it like that, a statement worth exploring for sure
> I really like that HN still has such an old, simple interface.

You having the interface you want shouldn't impact my having the interface I want.

An API allows everyone to have the interface they want.

Technically, HN already exposes an API over HTTP. It just uses HTML as the exchange format instead of XML or JSON.
Hmmm, not sure if I agree with that or not... but if so, it has a very limited usage quota before you get banned. :)
What API do you want? Automated submissions of posts is not a good idea, so that leaves data scraping.

If you're looking to extract data from HN, use HNSearch. http://www.hnsearch.com/

There's no reason to scrape data from HN itself.

HNSearch is great and I use it for my Wayback Letter project, but it hasn't been around that long so I couldn't use it before. When I started Hacker Newsletter about 2.5 years ago there was nothing, so scraping was the only solution. One of these days I will convert the application I built to build out each issue, but there also is a risk of HNSearch going away just like the last search engine did.
I'm curious why you disagree, aside from the quota thing? I have written many API consumers over the years and there is basically no difference between parsing HTML or any other format; XML especially, for obvious reasons.

HTML APIs to come with the added benefit of being less prone to change, which I realize goes against conventional wisdom, but seems to hold in practice.

I agree that parsing can be easily done, although I don't think it is necessarily equal... but I guess that would depend on a case by case basis since a lot of API's are terrible. What makes it not an API IMHO is that you can't consume it when needed, but rather you have to consume it all the time. I guess you will call that a streaming API though. :)

HTML APIs to come with the added benefit of being less prone to change

Really? I don't think that does hold in a lot of cases. Using HN as an example, it broke a year or so ago when PG changed how the job postings were listed. Again, the quality of an API can vary, but at least you would know what changed in that case.

I try to remember that line the next time my boss wants me to code an API.
that's a shitty excuse. HTML as a "protocol" mixes presentation with content. An API should not only be presentation agnostic, but presentation free.
Where then do microformats fit, in your opinion? A defined standard for API-like transmissions, but mixed into presentable content.
Also, make sure that every time someone performs an action on the site, you generate a random number. Add that random number to the number of seconds since their last performed action. If that number exceeds a threshold (that is assigned randomly and valid for a randomly assigned amount of time) delete a random part of the session.
Sounds interesting. Would love to check it out.
If anybody wants an easy way to set up their own HN, may I suggest taking a look at Telescope?

http://telesc.pe/

It's a real-time, open source HN clone built on Meteor, with features like invite-only mode, notifications, and a lot more stuff.

And since it's open source, if something is missing you can always code it yourself and contribute it back to the project.

This is pretty cool! I've been working with Meteor for a few weeks, but haven't heard of it before.

Forking!

How do you install meteorite? I can't get this working!

Frustrated!

Thanks. I got this far after posting my comment. Figured out I needed NodePackageManager. I hate when instructions say npm and dont say what npm means. Now I am getting another error when I run mrt inside the telescope folder. I am working on it.. I love this. I spent weeks trying to get newscloud going, but never did...
Does this have karma style points for users?
Text is dispersed too much. I prefer HN because you can read a lot more in a packed space.
Yes, I agree, build it.

However, please do not make it like HN or you will fail.

Be different. Brand it. Have a personality.

Would you be willing to share this tool?
I've done similar.

Bayesian filtering seems to work great on HN headlines. I trained mine with about two years of data scrapped from http://www.daemonology.net/hn-daily/ (apologies to whoever runs that), then just basically wrapped that with some code that grabs hacker news's main page and displays the filtered headlines to me. It nails politics and startup crap with stunning accuracy.

The only problem is that now I find myself using both that system and the website itself.

Anywhere I can get that training set without DDOS'ing some poor guys mirror?
I've thought about designing a community with script hacking in mind (a simple initial layout with an api) and then letting users be able to script it themselves through their accounts. If it could even be done safely and sanely, everyone could have the features they wanted by writing their own.

In lieu of that of course there's always greasemonkey.

> has less negativity

what do you mean by that?

ironically I'll probably sound negative, but are you looking for a place which enforces PC to an ubearable point where the only accepted state is, you know, people standing in a circle smiling while performing a certain activity?

HN is definitely not the most supportive place on the internet. I've gotten some really good feedback from people who know what they're talking about, and read some discussion which was more interesting than the linked article. But then, I've also seen some people with a lot of karma who just bicker about insignificant things. Also, the fact that the community rules and best practices are ridiculously opaque, and every new person is initially viewed with hatred/mistrust for being 'from Reddit' or 'from /.' makes the place seem a bit hostile.
If you take a look at the thread "Ask HN: I want to build a cable company. How would I get started?" [1] I saw that title and thought great, a discussion of the economics and technical side of building out a FTTH network. I was wondering how feasible it would be to start something like Google Fibre in my city.

I was disappointed. There's about three reasonable quality posts, and even they are short on technical and financial details. All the other top-level posts are basically noise.

I don't think HN needs "enforced PC" but I do think it would be improved if instead of just posting "it won't work" people posted "it will be difficult because of a, b and c which you need for x, y and z and which will cost i, j and k"

[1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4893776

I'd possibly like the same thing, but I don't have much in the way of hope that it will materialize. I see you're a Chem Eng grad student. I'd say for programming language design, read the computer science papers from top conferences that interest you, starting with PLDI:

https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2254064 (click on Table of Contents)

If you want to discuss them, send email to the authors, try and find some grad students or professors in your CS department, or find a way to attend some CS conferences.

I don't think you'll find deep research-quality conversation in a news aggregator, mostly because the people who are interested in having and also able to have research-quality conversations are for the most part busy doing research, and also because coming up with a reasonable opinion about something complicated that you're not an expert in takes a lot of work.

There are specific blogs, mailing lists, and (maybe defunct) newsgroups where you can discuss more focused topics, e.g. http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/

Have a look at this: http://functionspace.org/ I think this one may come close to your expectations
How does a landing page tell us anything?
The site is currently been developed and would be live soon. (It's been done by one of the close friends so I can assure that it is relevant). Sign up to get notified when it's up and more information.
Programming Reddit (Proggit) is more focused on programming (as opposed to politics, tech startups) and therefore, I would argue, is more likely to have the sorts of links you're looking for. But, in my experience, the quality of discussion is lower (though quite high in absolute standards) and you're more likely to have a good comment downvoted.
If you take away the religious subreddits like atheism, politics and worldnews you can make your own reddit well worth its weight in neutrinos.
r/math generally has a pretty high quality of discussion.
"and you're more likely to have a good comment downvoted."

This has never made sense to me. On some subreddits that focus on disciplines (like AskHistorians among many others), you can easily get downvoted (ie "dissapeared") just by asking a question, let alone answering one. Other times you'll won't get upvoted nor downvoted when you've actually contributed to the discussion. In these instances I lurk even when I can contribute because it's just not worth it.

Reddit's voting system has two issues:

(1) Lots of strategic downvoting. That's why no thread stays above 75%. It happens to comments as well as threads. Some of it is spammers trying to improve their own ranking, and some is probably just trolls.

(2) "Stalker" downvoting, which is when a person retaliates to a comment by downvoting that person's contributions en masse.

I wonder if they've put any machine learning muscle behind this. Is it easy to fix, or is it just a hard problem?

I feel like (2) isn't difficult, in absolute terms, but is simply computationally expensive. Reddit is _still_ crashing all the time. They certainly don't have the resources to throw a bunch of machine learning or algorithmic muscle into preventing downvote spam.
Actually, (1) is the result of vote fuzzing by reddit. They intentionally manipulate upvote and downvote numbers to obscure from potential voting rings whether their votes are effective.

There are also some small safeguards in place against (2). If you literally go to someone's user page, and start downvoting every post, reddit will start ignoring your votes towards that user in actual score calculations.

(comment deleted)
The entire concept of the downvote is flawed and is very likely to be the absolute worst part about reddit.

In theory it may be a good idea, but in practice it's essentially a "CENSOR THIS POST" button that people use to get rid of content they don't agree with.

I've also noticed that negative points on a post completely destroys credibility despite cited evidence or a well thought out argument. I've seen identical comments on similar posts in the past where the first few voters determined the post's fate in that if the first few voters voted it down, the post would receive flames and even more downvotes, but if it was initially upvoted, more people would upvote it and it would receive well thought out replies.

Probably the most horrifying part of the downvote is that all it takes is 51% of voters to dislike your post to destroy it. For example, all it takes is 51% of viewers on the politics subreddit to turn the the /r/politics frontpage into a pseudo fox news where every single post praises democrats and slanders republicans.

It strikes me as disgusting that some people actually consider reddit to be a good place to have a controversial discussion when it's so pathetically easy to censor opinions that you don't agree with.

Each subreddit has different character, depending on the mods and the community that it attracts. Some skew one way, some skew another.
Hmm, very different perspectives; personally I think a big advantage of reddit over hn is that on reddit, if I see harmful bullshit or toxic garbage, I can do something about it without having to take up everyone's time. I don't downvote based on mere disagreement; surely there are some people who do, but I haven't seen that much of it.

That having been said, I mostly read the programming section of reddit; I'm prepared to believe standards might be lower in e.g. the politics sections.

Also keep in mind that Reddit throws in spurious downvotes as part of their spam prevention. For example, you may have a comment with 100 upvotes and 50 "downvotes", but in reality, most of the downvotes may be fakes generated by their spam prevention mechanism.
I don't doubt these are real issues on reddit. Even with that, good content does rise to the top most of the time.

As to the ops questions: you should look into creating a list of subreddits that cover these things you're interested in.

> (2) "Stalker" downvoting, which is when a person retaliates to a comment by downvoting that person's contributions en masse.

This is why downvots (or upvotes) are not registered if you vote from the user-page.

Please explain how it is a problem, let alone a hard one. Karma is a game played by whatever rules the players want. Reddit content is decently well correlated between how close a post appears on the top of the page, and how worthwhile that post is to read.
I quit proggit about a year ago because it was absolutely jammed with politics, tech startups and the like.

To the point where I founded a circlejerk sub to mock it.

r/ProgrammingLanguages/ is about programming lanugage design, although it doesn't get a lot of traffic.
AskScience is also curated very well and can make for some interesting reading.
>Heated arguments that make me feel bad after reading the comments instead of enlightened

1-There is bound to be heated arguments whenever two rational people with different circumstances & a different thought process are asked to opine on any issue with less than an obvious resolution. If you're uncomfortable watching a rigorous back & forth. Try North Korea.

2- You do realize you're asking a question of a social nature. you're contributing to making HN less of a technical forum.

3- Nobody forces you to read comments. The community does a pretty good job both down-voting comments rife with negativity or without any value. (maybe even this one)

I'm sorry, but it seems to me you're trolling.

How on earth does anyone think this is trolling? Anyway, I disagree with your points.

1) There is a very big difference between a heated argument and an argument. Maybe it's just a side effect of the medium we are using, but everyone seems to have so much trouble being civil. For example, instead of suggesting that OP go look to North Korea, you could have said "For me, the heated discussions are a good thing" or something similar.

2) OP realizes that HN isn't a technical forum, and isn't asking for it to change.

3) Comments are a massive part of the value that HN provides, and even if OP were to stop reading the comments, he'll still see the same mix of articles on the front page.

Very sad to see all the 'HN competitors' (lobsters, hackful, lamernews) are all essentially dead (at least extremely dormant).

To me, all they needed were a small handful of dedicated posters/commenters (and to be open, i'm looking at you lobste.rs) to start to catch on; i'm very much reminded of the story of the reddit founders sockpuppeting to make the site not look like a ghost town; this kind of 'forced' activity doesn't seem to be necessary for long until the site would take on it's own life.

Lobsters isn't dead, just not as noisy. I check it once a day and usually walk away with one interesting tech article. Discussions are less lively, but that's because every site follows the 90:10 law (90% lurk, 10% comment)
I totally agree. It would even be easy to find old, well-received HN submissions that have likely been forgotten and to queue them up for resubmission to your new service.
On a timescale, so that the site would be receiving at least one killer article from the past a day.
One suggesting is to visit new and upvote good stories; flag unsuitable stories; and submit excellent articles.

What you're looking for can be found in HN, and is appreciated by many people, but does perhaps need a bit of support and encouragement.

No mention of Usenet :-(. It scores on many of the points you mentioned (Reddit subreddits come close.)

I'm sad this part of the net has been fading into obscurity the last ten years especially since its alternatives have proven to be inadequate. Its greatest power was it being decentralised and thus couldn't be policed by anyone, the variety and custom readers.

Its greatest weak point was perhaps the trolls. Maybe others can supply more weaknesses?

Really, what does Hackernews as a website have over f.e. a newsgroup alt.news.hackers?

Voting, a threaded display that does not break, no insane quoting, some markup, karma
Agreed on most of your points except a lot of news readers supported the basic markup for bold, italics, underline, etc. one now sees in Markdown & friends.
I agree that Usenet was fantastic.

> what does Hackernews as a website have over f.e. a newsgroup alt.news.hackers?

Communal voting?

> Its greatest weak point was perhaps the trolls. Maybe others can supply more weaknesses?

A rigid definition of what counts as spam (Breidbart index)?

People using all kinds of domains in the From: header. That's a problem because bots scrape the from header for sending spam, and there's nothing to stop people using valid domains that don't belong to them.

No up/down voting (so when a discussion get's longer you can track only the most valuable posts).

<nostalgia>But otherwise... I miss Usenet so much. I was raised by Usenet, it shaped my life philosophy, I found my best friend there, not to mention knowledge I got.</nostalgia>

So, maybe time to write a "Usenet 2.0", with: - up/downvotes, - markdown, - tags?

Slashdot? :-)
slashdot seems like it is exactly what OP is looking for.
Huh? Slashdot is almost all politics, very little technical content.
I've been thinking in making something similar: But I though people might not be interested having HN, Reddit and Slashdot.
Someday I'm going to invent a place where people can gather to learn technical skills from masters of the crafts, and socialize with like-minded enthusiasts.

I could even "gamify" it and the players could earn points for passing tests to prove their knowledge, ultimately earning an "achievement" for mastering the craft at various levels of proficiency.

We'll allow a diverse range of players to apply and even come live there, maybe right out of high school. I'm thinking "friendiversity" for the name, because you'll make friends and there is diversity there, what do you think?

You could use every buzzword!
You see, about a year and a half ago this was what HN was actually like.
A well set up Google Reader account can do wonders... but it takes a while to get to that point.
Yes, that's a good start. And if you want to take it a step further, you could use a tool like intigi.com (disclaimer: I'm one of the co-founders) which allows you to not only aggregate feeds, but also run Lucene queries on them to filter out the noise.
For me it sounds like whole stackexchange.com network.
except you can't discuss things there.
stackoverflow or lobste.rs
Sadly stackoverflow has gotten to mean for anything but the most difficult questions, worded perfectly. They need to also be solved in the same paragraph to escape the wrath of stack.