There have been mass-produced don't-need-setting clocks for just under a hundred years now, the first Jaeger-LeCoultre Atmos clock, https://atmos-atelier.de/en/atmos-uhr/, being produced in 1928. You don't wind them up, you move a lever across to unlock them and then they keep running by themselves. The du Millénaire model won't need resetting until 3000AD, although perhaps that range may be a tiny bit optimistic.
I can't decide how I feel about this article. On one hand, it's great. It's great that the author wanted to get something done, and thanks to the marvels of modern tech, they could do it with very little effort.
But on the other hand... gosh, this was about the simplest software engineering challenge imaginable (toggle some I/O pins) and the simplest design task imaginable (make a featureless rectangular box). And the author - a technologist! - isn't just saying "I wanted to try out some new tech". They're saying "this was too hard, I needed help from an LLM" ("would absolutely not be able to meet this challenge", "hit another wall").
And that... I mean, I just don't know what to make of this. Were we always like this? Are LLMs making us like this? Is it good? Is it bad?... and don't give me the calculator analogy...
I have been stuck mentally on this article since it came out. Like, learning enough python to send the time to the display would still have made this a weekend project (I even went and found an adafruit 7 segment pi hat site and read their sample code). The effort is the interesting part to me, I want to read janky code that paints some kind a picture of someone learning. I don't care about finished, "polished" projects. I don't care that AI can know every single possible error that'll pop up and prevent it from happening, I want the clock to break and for the maker to say ohhhh yeah oops thats dumb.
I have had an eInk pi weather display in my living room for like 4 years now, pulling data from openweatherapi every half hour. It's my second favorite project (I made an eReader once... if you like waiting 5 seconds for a page to turn, do I have a product for you!) and I use it every single day. Sometimes it doesn't update when I didn't account for a possibility I didn't know about, and thats okay.
I get that this is someone writing for money and I have no experience in that realm, and I'm sure conde nast prefers faster writing for something less in depth... but I almost feel I should spend my monthly $3 elsewhere.
> I get that this is someone writing for money and I have no experience in that realm, and I'm sure conde nast prefers faster writing for something less in depth...
FWIW, Conde has no input on my work. Conde is the machine that provides HR and legal and payroll. Ars is a more or less self-contained world and since I got kicked into management a few years back, my output is my own. I wrote this up because this is how the project unfolded; no one assigned it to me or said I needed to write a July story to make a quota. It was fun. I did the write-up because it felt like an Ars-y thing to write up.
Definitely heard re: wanting to stumble through things and see the warts, but I have to disagree on the "learning enough python to make this work would still have been a weekend project." That's simply not true—if it were, I would have done it.
But it's not like the project didn't require effort. I put in considerable time on the parts that weren't python coding and CAD. Planning out and setting up the systemd service and timers, packaging up the service to ensure the thing was running under a properly isolated service account context, writing the installer, setting up the deployment pipeline—I didn't want to do the usual lazy thing I see so often and just take a barely functional mess of conflicting dependencies and shove them into a docker container and say "Here, this works on my computer, your problem now."
But like I said elsewhere in the thread, at 48 I'm old enough and ossified enough that I've come to accept that coding is simply not a skill I've got in me, and cranking out even something relatively simple like this project is going to be impossible for me without help. I've tried, too—I've bootstrapped myself through code academies, tried DIY courses, thrown myself into code-adjacent weekend projects, and otherwise tried to get to some level of mastery past "hello world," and I just kinda....suck. I bounced off of coding 30 years ago in college, I've bounced off it professionally for anything more than simple bash scripting, and I've bounced off of it in hobbies. I don't know if it's that my english major brain just doesn't do well in chopping problems down into small enough chunks or what—but I know after a lifetime that it's something I'm never going to be able to do.
That and bowling. Never scored over 100 in a game in my life, and likely at this point never will. Some things are just beyond my reach.
I’ve had a Phillips “atomic” alarm clock beside my bed for 23 years that just sets based on radio signal and auto restores if the power is lost, to which it has a backup 9v battery.
There’s a time zone setting offset slider and a DST slider. I basically touch it twice a year, maybe another if I move time zones. I’ve only had to touch it for DST (never switched time zones). Takes me conservatively 10 seconds to find and flip, so it’s taken me 460 seconds or a little under 8 minutes in the past 23 years to do time adjustments.
While these efforts are definitely fun hobby projects, there are cheap reliable solutions out there with minimal intervention that consume the NIST radio signal for time.
It's a clock. Does it really have to have remote updating, a command line interface, an Internet connection, and HomeKit integration? That's too IoT.
I have three La Crosse clocks that run off the NIST time signal out of Boulder, CO, and need their AA battery replaced maybe once a year. The real challenge is running such a thing on a small battery for a year.
I once made a small clock that displayed "A LITTLE AFTER SIX" and such, changing its text every five minutes. Needed a power connection, though.
I just use one those awtrix clones made by ulanzi, multiple open source firmwares for it since esp32 based.
NTP, http api for displaying alerts, and mqtt support
No need for me to reinvent the wheel, works a treat mounted above my monitor
"One, the path not taken, started with an Arduino or Arduino-like microcontroller. The other began with a Raspberry Pi or Pi-like computer-y thing. I went with the Pi, variously using both a Raspberry Pi Zero W and Zero 2 W."
Ok, so instead of bumping your clock +- one hour twice a year you preferred distro upgrades?
I've been using an old iPad as a clock for a while. The "Clocks" app I installed lets me configured 5 different alarms (quite handy since my week varies a lot).
Also: I reckon the closest best-value watch alternative that ticks most(?) of the author's boxes is the Casio GW-M5610-1ER, so long as you are inside a radio-controlled time area.
> Battery-backed self-setting “atomic” clocks that get their updates via the cosmic ether have been a thing for years and get me most of the way there, but damned if I could find one with a red seven-segment display that I liked (maybe someone else’s search kung-fu is better than mine?)
I want a beautiful eink clock that gets its time from gps/gnss. It seems too much to have to collect a clock to wifi. Just turn it on and it should work.
LED segments may be nice, but why not go full out Nixie tube? There are several kits out there, but for the DIY ethic, you can add WWV sync - and even watch the synchronization process - with this fellow's project:
>"...but damned if I could find one with a red seven-segment display that I liked..."
Funny but I have one which updates time "via the cosmic ether", has big red 7-seg LEDs and as cherry on top it has laser LED based projector that displays same big red 7 seg digits on whatever surface one points it to - ceiling in my case. I bought it decades ago in RadioShack
I think a single clock-output-only microcontroller would be nifty. Something where you can save settings, such as NTP servers and an all time change dates, but that’s it. Pair it with PoE Ethernet and you wouldn’t even need a power supply, only an Ethernet jack in the wall. With the right display you could make it super thin.
The atomic time radio station WWVB does in fact broadcast a daylight saving time bit. A good atomic time clock should accurately update for DST (though Amazon reviews for a clock like this one is pretty mixed: https://www.amazon.com/Crosse-Technology-617-249-Curved-Atom...)
There are lots of modern alarm clocks that pair via Bluetooth to your phone and auto-set the time from the phone’s time. No internet connection or NTP server needed.
The author's primary lament is clocks that cannot withstand power flickers, yet every sub-$10 mains voltage clock from Walmart and Target that I've ever seen will take a 9V battery to make them resilient against such power interruptions.
Might want to flip the clock over and check for a battery door before starting next time.
That might do to keep it within a minute during power loss, and maybe that's good enough for most people. But if you really want to be worry-free you need something more high tech.
It would be worth it for me not to have to touch it twice a year for DST.
- estimate time elapsed between power cycles by tracking and storing IEEE 802.11 timing synchronization function (TSF) timestamps from nearby wifi routers.
All of these are potentially problematic.
The best option is the RTC. Buy a DS3231, hook it up to your microcontroller and a button battery, and forget about it for a few years. The only problem with these (besides the battery) is that they can drift pretty badly. The fancy ones account for temperature fluctuations and are accurate to ~2 ppm, which is one minute per year. Aside from the drift, it sucks to need an always-on dedicated IC just to know the time, especially if you don't always need to know the time.
GPS is nice but it's hard to get a signal indoors, especially in a skyscraper far away from a window, as can happen here in New York. You also need a relatively bulky component and an antenna.
The longwave radio signals (WWVB, DCF-77, and NPL) are neat and old and what "atomic clocks" use, but the signal is tiny and you need a sensitive long-running receiver, either with a gigantic antenna or a slightly less gigantic ferrite rod. Even then, one of those cheap atomic clocks might not sync at all unless it's placed near a window. The WWVB signal is also very weak in certain parts of America and at certain times of day, so your circuit might only get a bit of signal over the noise once or twice a day, which might or might not be enough to deduce the time.
The plain old internet works fine, but then your power budget involves a wifi radio, though you only need to run it for a few hundred milliseconds per hour. You also need a wifi password, which is a pain to configure in an IoT device. Also, you wanted a clock, why does it need the internet? GTFOOH.
Mobile internet is way overkill.
The last idea is something I haven't tested fully, since my microcontroller (raspberry pi pico w) can't keep up with the "promiscuous mode" unofficially offered by its wifi chip. It's a neat idea, though: you're in an environment with wifi routers all around, and you want to guess the time elapsed since you last checked by listening, without credentials, to the chatter. With enough routers and some flash storage you can probably keep track of time, assuming the whole area doesn't get a power outage.
That's my very long way of saying that keeping time is a solved problem but all of the solutions have drawbacks and none works perfectly.
> The best option is the RTC. Buy a DS3231, hook it up to your microcontroller and a button battery, and forget about it for a few years.
RTC ICs are for use in bigger systems where main CPUs have other things to do. If you design a clock around a microcontroller dedicated to the task, that microcontroller can do the timekeeping all by itself. No extra IC needed.
Also quartz oscillators (ones built from discrete parts) can be trimmed. If you'd take the trouble, a cheapo quartz oscillator can go from 20..50 ppm to perhaps a few ppm worst case. Which as you point out is in the order of a minute per year. If that's not good enough AND power budget is available, an oven-controlled quartz oscillator improves on that.
All that online / GPS / radio controlled stuff is for convenience only (daylight saving!). Not needed just to have an accurate clock.
Oh and there's using AC mains frequency as timebase.
Using a supercomputer to power a clock, now that is overengineering.
I made a LED matrix clock using esp32 syncing time with ntp server every hour and an external RTC to do time keeping if my network is down, and it runs perfectly for years, with accuracy +-1s to time.is. Never have to do setting except the first boot to setup wifi.
I too find myself going down the time-nut rabbit hole. I want a perfect 10 Mhz reference, not necessarily a time of day clock.
I was tempted to go the Atomic Clock route, based on actual cesium oscillators, having found a cheapish ($999) used CSAC on ebay[1]. However, once I started digging into the data sheets[2], I found something unacceptable, Pin 1, labeled "Tune", an analog tuning input.
It was then that I learned that while the Cesium vapor cells were accurate, they aged, and drifted, unlike a properly degaussed and Zeeman harmonic calibrated Cesium Beam atomic clock, which is a primary standard.
Further demotivating was learning they have a 5-10 year service life. That's a lot of money to pay for what's essentially a better OXCO.
I'll stick with GPS disciplined oscillators for now.
65 comments
[ 0.26 ms ] story [ 37.5 ms ] thread"setting the clock" means adjusting time, not powering
But on the other hand... gosh, this was about the simplest software engineering challenge imaginable (toggle some I/O pins) and the simplest design task imaginable (make a featureless rectangular box). And the author - a technologist! - isn't just saying "I wanted to try out some new tech". They're saying "this was too hard, I needed help from an LLM" ("would absolutely not be able to meet this challenge", "hit another wall").
And that... I mean, I just don't know what to make of this. Were we always like this? Are LLMs making us like this? Is it good? Is it bad?... and don't give me the calculator analogy...
I have had an eInk pi weather display in my living room for like 4 years now, pulling data from openweatherapi every half hour. It's my second favorite project (I made an eReader once... if you like waiting 5 seconds for a page to turn, do I have a product for you!) and I use it every single day. Sometimes it doesn't update when I didn't account for a possibility I didn't know about, and thats okay.
I get that this is someone writing for money and I have no experience in that realm, and I'm sure conde nast prefers faster writing for something less in depth... but I almost feel I should spend my monthly $3 elsewhere.
FWIW, Conde has no input on my work. Conde is the machine that provides HR and legal and payroll. Ars is a more or less self-contained world and since I got kicked into management a few years back, my output is my own. I wrote this up because this is how the project unfolded; no one assigned it to me or said I needed to write a July story to make a quota. It was fun. I did the write-up because it felt like an Ars-y thing to write up.
Definitely heard re: wanting to stumble through things and see the warts, but I have to disagree on the "learning enough python to make this work would still have been a weekend project." That's simply not true—if it were, I would have done it.
But it's not like the project didn't require effort. I put in considerable time on the parts that weren't python coding and CAD. Planning out and setting up the systemd service and timers, packaging up the service to ensure the thing was running under a properly isolated service account context, writing the installer, setting up the deployment pipeline—I didn't want to do the usual lazy thing I see so often and just take a barely functional mess of conflicting dependencies and shove them into a docker container and say "Here, this works on my computer, your problem now."
But like I said elsewhere in the thread, at 48 I'm old enough and ossified enough that I've come to accept that coding is simply not a skill I've got in me, and cranking out even something relatively simple like this project is going to be impossible for me without help. I've tried, too—I've bootstrapped myself through code academies, tried DIY courses, thrown myself into code-adjacent weekend projects, and otherwise tried to get to some level of mastery past "hello world," and I just kinda....suck. I bounced off of coding 30 years ago in college, I've bounced off it professionally for anything more than simple bash scripting, and I've bounced off of it in hobbies. I don't know if it's that my english major brain just doesn't do well in chopping problems down into small enough chunks or what—but I know after a lifetime that it's something I'm never going to be able to do.
That and bowling. Never scored over 100 in a game in my life, and likely at this point never will. Some things are just beyond my reach.
Why is it so dang impossible to find a not trash simple LED clock that's 'large print', 'the right color', and not annoyingly too bright?
A deluxe model might include a day of the week bar or dot and a month / day in month number (smaller than the time, mostly people care about the time)
There’s a time zone setting offset slider and a DST slider. I basically touch it twice a year, maybe another if I move time zones. I’ve only had to touch it for DST (never switched time zones). Takes me conservatively 10 seconds to find and flip, so it’s taken me 460 seconds or a little under 8 minutes in the past 23 years to do time adjustments.
While these efforts are definitely fun hobby projects, there are cheap reliable solutions out there with minimal intervention that consume the NIST radio signal for time.
Just for anyone interested who wasn’t aware there’s some “old school” time broadcast solutions out there too besides NTP: https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/time-di...
This has nothing to do with the fact that I still haven't figured out how to set the time on my microwave. :D
I have three La Crosse clocks that run off the NIST time signal out of Boulder, CO, and need their AA battery replaced maybe once a year. The real challenge is running such a thing on a small battery for a year.
I once made a small clock that displayed "A LITTLE AFTER SIX" and such, changing its text every five minutes. Needed a power connection, though.
No need for me to reinvent the wheel, works a treat mounted above my monitor
Ok, so instead of bumping your clock +- one hour twice a year you preferred distro upgrades?
Also: I reckon the closest best-value watch alternative that ticks most(?) of the author's boxes is the Casio GW-M5610-1ER, so long as you are inside a radio-controlled time area.
> Battery-backed self-setting “atomic” clocks that get their updates via the cosmic ether have been a thing for years and get me most of the way there, but damned if I could find one with a red seven-segment display that I liked (maybe someone else’s search kung-fu is better than mine?)
I found this with ~5 minutes of searching. I think it meets your critera: https://www.amazon.com/Sharp-Digital-Alarm-AccuSet-Automatic...
(Regardless, cool project! I think yours still looks better than this one)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smUwbzA9SEo
Funny but I have one which updates time "via the cosmic ether", has big red 7-seg LEDs and as cherry on top it has laser LED based projector that displays same big red 7 seg digits on whatever surface one points it to - ceiling in my case. I bought it decades ago in RadioShack
Did everyone forget that hackers and engineers like to have fun? Seriously.
Someone at Open Sauce this year made a friggin CRT-based VR headset. Why? Why not.
Did we forget where we came from? Does everything have to be optimal?
Might want to flip the clock over and check for a battery door before starting next time.
It would be worth it for me not to have to touch it twice a year for DST.
There are a few places to get the current time:
- on-board real-time clock (RTC) connected to a continuous power source (e.g. button battery)
- GPS
- Colorado WWVB signal (60 KHz), Frankfurt DCF-77 (77.5 KHz), Cumbria NPL (60 KHz)
- the internet (NTP, HTTPS servers, etc.)
- mobile internet (e.g. LTE)
- estimate time elapsed between power cycles by tracking and storing IEEE 802.11 timing synchronization function (TSF) timestamps from nearby wifi routers.
All of these are potentially problematic.
The best option is the RTC. Buy a DS3231, hook it up to your microcontroller and a button battery, and forget about it for a few years. The only problem with these (besides the battery) is that they can drift pretty badly. The fancy ones account for temperature fluctuations and are accurate to ~2 ppm, which is one minute per year. Aside from the drift, it sucks to need an always-on dedicated IC just to know the time, especially if you don't always need to know the time.
GPS is nice but it's hard to get a signal indoors, especially in a skyscraper far away from a window, as can happen here in New York. You also need a relatively bulky component and an antenna.
The longwave radio signals (WWVB, DCF-77, and NPL) are neat and old and what "atomic clocks" use, but the signal is tiny and you need a sensitive long-running receiver, either with a gigantic antenna or a slightly less gigantic ferrite rod. Even then, one of those cheap atomic clocks might not sync at all unless it's placed near a window. The WWVB signal is also very weak in certain parts of America and at certain times of day, so your circuit might only get a bit of signal over the noise once or twice a day, which might or might not be enough to deduce the time.
The plain old internet works fine, but then your power budget involves a wifi radio, though you only need to run it for a few hundred milliseconds per hour. You also need a wifi password, which is a pain to configure in an IoT device. Also, you wanted a clock, why does it need the internet? GTFOOH.
Mobile internet is way overkill.
The last idea is something I haven't tested fully, since my microcontroller (raspberry pi pico w) can't keep up with the "promiscuous mode" unofficially offered by its wifi chip. It's a neat idea, though: you're in an environment with wifi routers all around, and you want to guess the time elapsed since you last checked by listening, without credentials, to the chatter. With enough routers and some flash storage you can probably keep track of time, assuming the whole area doesn't get a power outage.
That's my very long way of saying that keeping time is a solved problem but all of the solutions have drawbacks and none works perfectly.
RTC ICs are for use in bigger systems where main CPUs have other things to do. If you design a clock around a microcontroller dedicated to the task, that microcontroller can do the timekeeping all by itself. No extra IC needed.
Also quartz oscillators (ones built from discrete parts) can be trimmed. If you'd take the trouble, a cheapo quartz oscillator can go from 20..50 ppm to perhaps a few ppm worst case. Which as you point out is in the order of a minute per year. If that's not good enough AND power budget is available, an oven-controlled quartz oscillator improves on that.
All that online / GPS / radio controlled stuff is for convenience only (daylight saving!). Not needed just to have an accurate clock.
Oh and there's using AC mains frequency as timebase.
I made a LED matrix clock using esp32 syncing time with ntp server every hour and an external RTC to do time keeping if my network is down, and it runs perfectly for years, with accuracy +-1s to time.is. Never have to do setting except the first boot to setup wifi.
I was tempted to go the Atomic Clock route, based on actual cesium oscillators, having found a cheapish ($999) used CSAC on ebay[1]. However, once I started digging into the data sheets[2], I found something unacceptable, Pin 1, labeled "Tune", an analog tuning input.
It was then that I learned that while the Cesium vapor cells were accurate, they aged, and drifted, unlike a properly degaussed and Zeeman harmonic calibrated Cesium Beam atomic clock, which is a primary standard.
Further demotivating was learning they have a 5-10 year service life. That's a lot of money to pay for what's essentially a better OXCO.
I'll stick with GPS disciplined oscillators for now.
[1] https://www.ebay.com/itm/327134074179
[2] https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/523/Microsemi_CSAC_Space_...