This perfectly captures the "death by a thousand papercuts" reality of modern Android. Google honors the open-source letter of the law with AOSP while systematically destroying its spirit by moving vital APIs into closed-source Google Mobile Services (GMS).We are seeing the exact same playbook play out on our wrists right now with Wear OS. Google recently mandated the Watch Face Format (WFF) via Watch Face Studio (WFS). Under the guise of battery optimization, they stripped developers of the ability to run executable native code for watch faces. It is now just a declarative XML format rendered by the OS.Whether it is the core OS framework or a simple smartwatch complication, Google’s strategy remains identical: hollow out the open ecosystem, deprecate local developer execution, and force everyone into their centralized, closed garden.
FWIW I think tesla app works fine on Graphine/Lineage OS as a digital key where the BMW system (and maybe other MFGs) use something with Google Wallet which requires something with Google Play Services to work.
> If I have an issue or something I want to tinker with I can just ssh over from my PC either wirelessly or via USB.
FWIW one can also do that on stock Android or its GrapheneOS variant pretty conveniently, including storage access, am, boot background processes, etc. It is not as complete as being root on Linux proper but still.
Not to mention that your android/ios device is still shipping a bunch of bluetooth tokens for "track and trace" system. Cryptographically signed to you.
Switching from Android style Linux HAL to FreeDesktop style Linux HAL… I honestly think we need more Linux HAL options than just those two, when one is threatening to self-destruct and the other is arguably the single worst interface design ever conceived, by all measurements.
Sailfish has some proprietary stuff to deal with the Android & Sony as well as Qt being Qt. Much of their software is open source—& collaborative with translations & forums for feedback. Out of the box, you on Sailfish you get root support which lets you actually be the device owner. You are allowed to install whatever software from wherever you want… things Android no longer is. It’s not a flawless platform, but Android in practice gives you so, so little control over your actual device.
>I've become more and more dissatisfied with the path Google has taken with the Android Open Source Project (AOSP). Be it the dependency and insane tracking of Google Play Services
AOSP does not include nor depend on Play Services.
>locking down of device trees to hinder custom ROM development
Most manufacturers do not distribute these either. The user doesn't even have a pixel so it is not relevant.
>all the AI stuff being put into the system
The AI stuff is not part of AOSP.
>or most recently (and perhaps worst), removing the ability of installing apps per your own wishing - it's become sort of like a "death by a thousand papercuts" situation.
Again that is not a feature of AOSP, but one bolted in on top of it.
I think the author would benefit much more by using a different distribution of AOSP.
I've tried a few times over the years to make Ubuntu Touch work. God how bad I wanted it to work here in the US. The lack of apps and VoLTE support really soured me on it ever working here.
If you're outside of the US, the availability of useable mobile OS's outside of Android and iOS is pretty abundant compared to the situation here in the US.
May as well just get an old school Nokia and skip the smartphone technology all together. Get yourself a nice flip phone and go back to the early 2000's. If you need to do something online, just bring your laptop with you - some are so small that they're easy to carry around in a backpack or side bag.
I really want to leave the Google and Apple Ecosystems, but I still need "these" Banking Apps. Some Banks don't even offer a Web based experience anymore.
Is there such thing as a palm-sized mobile PC that can just run a desktop Linux distribution (or Windows for that matter) that supports mobile features (calling, SMS, and data)? Even if it has rough edges or compromises?
Purely an akchally, but there is the Fujitsu F-07C. Topologically it was a Windows 7 stick PC duct taped to a 3G flip phone that acts like a KVM console and a modem.
GPD Pocket / GPD microPC seem to be the only "small PC" products nowadays. But they do not support calling and SMS (they have 4G modem option for data, but it's not seemingly not very good).
At that point I think I might get one of those and use them as an everyday computing device (with Waydroid for Android apps) plus a small light Android phone for calling, tethering and locked down apps that do not work otherwise.
Been daily driving ubports for about 4 years now (OP5T, Noble). The system has its quirks, it sometimes reboots without reason (though its rare, I experience something like that once a month), the videos in web browser sometimes glitch in a weird way and sometimes don't play at all, the camera stops working and needs a reboot. The lack of banking apps and maps with live traffic is irritating (although unav is great, shoutouts to the guy who made it), a problem that could be solved using waydroid but I don't want to use it out of principle. Otherwise it covers all my needs, has working phone, SMS and MMS (I'm from Europe), web browser, matrix and mail clients, TOTP manager (necessary for work), and is totally linux which allows me to do cool things like using pulseaudio sinks to connect my laptop to phone that is connected to speakers and use it as wireless aux (works janky, but it works :) ). It obviously hasn't got many apps compared to the competition, but new ones are continuously being developed by the community. I tried developing an app myself but haven't got the time, fortunately it's much easier now with AI because I remember that one attempt at creating a simple app for enabling some daemon a few years ago was cut short by not-quite clear documentation of the clickable app development system. It needs to be said that I'm certainly not the greatest programmer in the world though :)
If you're a technical guy and you feel like the android and ios are both pretty much destroyed by corporate overlords, then I sincerely invite you to try UBports or SailfishOS (from my research I find these two the most beginner friendly). The experience most certainly will hurt (at the beginning), but the sooner more people start using it, the sooner more people will start contributing to linux on phone and make our systems better. I was nervous that I would not survive without android and its entire app catalog and maps, or that a moment would come at work or in some critical situation that I would need android for some dumb reason and wouldn't be able to do something and spaghetti would fall out of my pockets, but for the last 4 years nothing like that happened. The most painful thing for me are probably the maps, but when I need long distance GPS with live traffic, I'll most certainly be driving with someone, so I just ask the passenger to navigate :) for less important voyages the unav is completely fine, there's also puremaps which I haven't tested.
I have thought about buying one of the Pinephone things, because I want to actually own the computer in my pocket, but I have always hesitated because the hardware is always kind of ancient for these things. The Pinephone doesn’t even have 5G, so I am not even sure that my phone service will let me activate it now.
What I would like is to take my existing iPhone 13 Pro and install a real Linux on it so I could guarantee decent hardware. You know, like we could do with pretty much any computer before smartphones.
5G is probably not a requirement for your phone service (although I can’t say for sure). The critical bit on networks in the U.S. and many other countries without 2G or 3G is VoLTE for phone calls and texts, which it does support. Some carriers have device whitelists that are only loosely related to technical features, though.
I'm running SailfishOs on Gigasets assembled in Germany and they have G5. It's a port and I don't have android support at all. I maintain a number if apps and it feels like ownership. Also have a spare Jolla with droid stuff, but use that max once a week.
This read like a lot of pain and suffering. I've tried this for kicks myself. There's a lot of sacrifices to be made. But I'm rooting for anything Linux on smartphones.
I wish we'd see some progress on this from the phone makers. It's so disappointing what a stranglehold Android somehow has. Nokia was so on the eve of greatness before they threw it all away and burned their good platform.
Motorola at least seems to be moving to unlock bootloaders. ARM gpus have some ok drivers now (thanks collabora & many others), which, a decade ago seemed like way way way more than the universe was ever going to allow.
I still think Samsung, with their new mountains of market cap, should try to do better. Exynos is right there, with an RDNA GPU just begging for the world's best drivers to take advantage of the hardware you already ship. You could make a stunner! Why not try?
Now that making apps is easy, and it's the apps and eco system etc that makes an OS take off and adopt, starting a new OS for phone like devices shouldn't be as big of a problem as it used to be.
Given fair phone exists, it should now be able to get all kind of apps anyone wants.
Ever tried using Linux on real mobile hardware? Phosh and updates via Flatpak are unbearably slow. I have yet to see a way to try Plasma Mobile, etc or have much of a way to customize the filesystem and lower level services to make things better.
I'd love to do this, but sadly I don't see it happening unless my lifestyle significantly changed to the point where I wasn't frequently traveling to new countries.
There are just too many very useful services that only work with Android/iOS. Take taxi apps for example. I've used over a dozen in the past few years, many of them local to a specific country or region that made getting around much much easier.
I‘m lucky that my part of the world doesn’t yet require apps for taxis & they accept cash. App users often end up paying more if they don’t know even basic negotiations.
I really want to love mobile Linux, and have given it multiple shots before. But I just don't see how it will catch up with iOS/Android in the same way it caught up with Windows/Mac:
- OEMs have poured an enormous amount of resources into the camera software, Linux cameras are years behind from what I understand.
- Android/iOS have thoroughly optimized the UX in all sorts of subtle ways, the big one being their keyboards. I literally can't type a single correct sentence on any of the mobile linux keyboards that I've tried because there's so much proprietary magic needed under the hood to figure out what the user is trying to say (autocorrect mostly, but I recall something about how apple also virtually adjusted the sizes of the keys to make it easier to type)
- GPS, banking, and now keys for your house and car all need to work.
Are you all seriously arguing/considering that the barrier is something like "innovation" or "UX" or "hard work at improving the OS?"
Like seriously?
Come on. By now we should know what actually happens. The entrenched carriers will fight tooth and nail to prevent this. That's the real threat. It will look like the above, but like e.g. Google lying about why it got rid of Google Reader, the real story will be "monopolies gonna monopolize."
Linux desktop is still not caught up with Windows/Mac in regards to graphics, gaming, and laptops hardware support.
Gaming, it is mostly Windows games via Proton, hardly any different from using MAME, FS-UAE, Amiberry,...
Graphics, most of the well known commercial packages for VFX, 3D modeling, visualisation, lack a Linux version.
Laptops, just two years ago I failed to make UEFI work with the myriad of distributions I tried out, unless booting from external USB drive, and even then there was the whole termal configuration.
I installed PostmarketOS with Plasma-Mobile on my ancient Pixel 3a a month ago as something to play with and I was actually astonished at how polished it seemed. The keyboard was perfectly usable, apps were quick to load, I could do silly things like open full-fat Blender or OrcaSlicer on a tiny phone screen if I desired. Sadly old Pixels don't support video out over USB-C for whatever reason so I can't do what I really wanted to do and dock my phone into a USB dock for a desktop experience, but it's good enough to have me considering buying a more modern supported phone so I can try out daily-driving the experience.
Speaking of Linux on mobile, I have about 300 of these things for sale with some associated hardware and software if anyone is interested (in Australia but can ship obviously) https://www.openstick.de/
101 comments
[ 0.26 ms ] story [ 36.2 ms ] threadFWIW one can also do that on stock Android or its GrapheneOS variant pretty conveniently, including storage access, am, boot background processes, etc. It is not as complete as being root on Linux proper but still.
https://puri.sm/products/liberty-phone/
https://covid19.apple.com/contacttracing
Why not just use an Android AOSP distribution? SailfishOS is proprietary. It will be a lot more "locked down" than LineageOS/GrapheneOS.
AOSP does not include nor depend on Play Services.
>locking down of device trees to hinder custom ROM development
Most manufacturers do not distribute these either. The user doesn't even have a pixel so it is not relevant.
>all the AI stuff being put into the system
The AI stuff is not part of AOSP.
>or most recently (and perhaps worst), removing the ability of installing apps per your own wishing - it's become sort of like a "death by a thousand papercuts" situation.
Again that is not a feature of AOSP, but one bolted in on top of it.
I think the author would benefit much more by using a different distribution of AOSP.
If you're outside of the US, the availability of useable mobile OS's outside of Android and iOS is pretty abundant compared to the situation here in the US.
At that point I think I might get one of those and use them as an everyday computing device (with Waydroid for Android apps) plus a small light Android phone for calling, tethering and locked down apps that do not work otherwise.
If you're a technical guy and you feel like the android and ios are both pretty much destroyed by corporate overlords, then I sincerely invite you to try UBports or SailfishOS (from my research I find these two the most beginner friendly). The experience most certainly will hurt (at the beginning), but the sooner more people start using it, the sooner more people will start contributing to linux on phone and make our systems better. I was nervous that I would not survive without android and its entire app catalog and maps, or that a moment would come at work or in some critical situation that I would need android for some dumb reason and wouldn't be able to do something and spaghetti would fall out of my pockets, but for the last 4 years nothing like that happened. The most painful thing for me are probably the maps, but when I need long distance GPS with live traffic, I'll most certainly be driving with someone, so I just ask the passenger to navigate :) for less important voyages the unav is completely fine, there's also puremaps which I haven't tested.
What I would like is to take my existing iPhone 13 Pro and install a real Linux on it so I could guarantee decent hardware. You know, like we could do with pretty much any computer before smartphones.
FairPhone 4 is a pretty ancient cpu. I guess it's benching a bit above the OnePlus 6/6t that has been a go-to for a good fraction of a decade now. https://browser.geekbench.com/v7/cpu/84602 https://browser.geekbench.com/v7/cpu/5200
Motorola at least seems to be moving to unlock bootloaders. ARM gpus have some ok drivers now (thanks collabora & many others), which, a decade ago seemed like way way way more than the universe was ever going to allow.
I still think Samsung, with their new mountains of market cap, should try to do better. Exynos is right there, with an RDNA GPU just begging for the world's best drivers to take advantage of the hardware you already ship. You could make a stunner! Why not try?
Given fair phone exists, it should now be able to get all kind of apps anyone wants.
There are just too many very useful services that only work with Android/iOS. Take taxi apps for example. I've used over a dozen in the past few years, many of them local to a specific country or region that made getting around much much easier.
- OEMs have poured an enormous amount of resources into the camera software, Linux cameras are years behind from what I understand. - Android/iOS have thoroughly optimized the UX in all sorts of subtle ways, the big one being their keyboards. I literally can't type a single correct sentence on any of the mobile linux keyboards that I've tried because there's so much proprietary magic needed under the hood to figure out what the user is trying to say (autocorrect mostly, but I recall something about how apple also virtually adjusted the sizes of the keys to make it easier to type) - GPS, banking, and now keys for your house and car all need to work.
Are you all seriously arguing/considering that the barrier is something like "innovation" or "UX" or "hard work at improving the OS?"
Like seriously?
Come on. By now we should know what actually happens. The entrenched carriers will fight tooth and nail to prevent this. That's the real threat. It will look like the above, but like e.g. Google lying about why it got rid of Google Reader, the real story will be "monopolies gonna monopolize."
Gaming, it is mostly Windows games via Proton, hardly any different from using MAME, FS-UAE, Amiberry,...
Graphics, most of the well known commercial packages for VFX, 3D modeling, visualisation, lack a Linux version.
Laptops, just two years ago I failed to make UEFI work with the myriad of distributions I tried out, unless booting from external USB drive, and even then there was the whole termal configuration.