This is a great project. How do you handle saving/loading data? You mentioned file operations but you need some sort of file system - perhaps FAT32 - to support that. I'd need that to consider using it on UEFI.
One thing you could use for more test cases is the book 101 BASIC Computers Games by David Ahl. Games always encouraged people to use computers and that's as classic as it gets!
> If you have a PC mainboard whose UEFI supports NTFS, does that filesystem work too?
Yes. The UEFI Simple Filesystem Protocol is transparent to the UEFI app. The protocol gives you open/read/write/close calls, without needing to know the underlying fs.
None of them are huge but it does emphasize how much difference in resource savings is available if your program can run directly on "bare metal" without even an OS at all.
Not sure why the Windows version would be much bigger than the bare metal one. If you use native code, the code size overhead from using native GDI calls to draw the window is almost zero. Didn't check if the Windows version uses some GUI toolkit that inflates the size.
> Not sure why the Windows version would be much bigger than the bare metal one.
That's probably because there's a bug in the linker, which puts uninitialized variables in the data segment instead of bss. This means unlike the bare metal variant, the Windows executable is full of zeros.
UEFI supports device discovery, TCP/HTTP, transfers to raw disks, filesystems, memory management and a bunch of other facilities. while it lacks a general process model and multitasking, I'm not sure its really correct to call UEFI programs bare metal.
> I'm not sure its really correct to call UEFI programs bare metal.
I think you can. UEFI is a firmware which comes with the hardware, stored on the motherboard. It's there and automatically runs when you turn on your machine.
It's okay to consider the firmware part of the "bare metal", IMHO.
> It's okay to consider the firmware part of the "bare metal", IMHO.
On a PC I would think so. Using UEFI is not much less bare metal as using BIOS calls, at least. OTOH on an embedded device it would already sound so much less bare metal... I find it's a tricky question.
I really like this! I started a personal project a long time ago to boot a Raspberry PI into an environment like this, the idea being to bring back the good old days of the ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC, Commodore 64, etc. I had to abandon the project but seeing this makes me want to resurrect it.
I learned to program on 8 bit micros, and created a rough boot-to-BASIC experiment ~15 years ago following the JeOS pattern. So this project sounds really exciting, but I wouldn't be interested in merely being a passive end user.
Besides UEFI, it has a Windows GDI port, but if it were FOSS one could add SDL backend for example and then one could compile it for Linux and Webassembly as well.
This is great! Allowing anyone to program like it is the 1980s and bring them back to their hardware somewhat. I think it will also find it's way to the permacomputing crowd since UEFI is so ubiquitous these days it may be a good platform for that can offer modern features with a understandable interface.
I was 8 or 9 years old when the ZX Spectrum +2 arrived home.
I'm seriously considering installing this on an old laptop and giving it to my son when he's 8 years old, together with a hard-copy of a BASIC reference and a few simple programs and games to type in.
Getting a FAT32 filesystem on day 1 is already a huge jump from my childhood experience (loading from tape).
As a parent who had a very similar experience growing up, I've tried putting BASIC in front of my young kids. It didn't work at all; the magic just isn't there anymore. If you've got an iPad, there's unfortunately no wonder in "I can make the computer do whatever I want". Also, kids know how modern computers are supposed to look and feel, and BASIC won't get them there.
Frankly HTML itself might be a decent introduction. There's structure, but it's wildly forgiving, and "I made my own website" can be sufficiently motivating for some.
That's a shame, I'm quite a bit younger than both of you and this is exactly how I learned to program. When I was a kid, computers were icons and a mouse, with no indication of how they worked or how you would go about making them do whatever you want. But I found a bunch of old BASIC books in my school library; the kind of computer in there had no icons, but very much encouraged you to program it. It took me a while to find one, but I was hooked once I did.
Modern tech has a huge barrier to entry if you know nothing about it. I didn't even know what "install a program" was at the time, before soon learning it means "get in trouble" for messing up the (1) family computer.
There is correct time and correct season for everything.
-- 3 points by timonoko 11 days ago: Turbo Pascal on CP/M, MSX-DOS and MS-DOS:
I wrote Pascal for 8080 in 1976 and Finnish Army even paid some money for it.
I was truly disappointed that Turbo Pascal did not copy my handy PORT-metavariable. You can write & read IO-ports without any extra hässle:
Can you assume that pretty much any computer these days provides UEFI firmware that supports ThoreauBASIC, or might some computers provide only a cut-down UEFI that doesn't provide all the functions you need?
Is there some way to investigate the UEFI implementation on any computer? Can you get to the UEFI shell on any computer somehow or is the UEFI shell a separate application you have to download from somewhere and install?
I realize these questions are getting far afield from what you wanted to tell us about, but UEFI is still kind of a mystery despite being installed almost everywhere -- it's hard to find explanations about it.
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[ 0.25 ms ] story [ 18.0 ms ] threadConsidering how much it supports, if it could chainload a full operating system, it would make a great replacement for GRUB or rEFIt.
Try https://gitlab.com/bztsrc/easyboot
One thing you could use for more test cases is the book 101 BASIC Computers Games by David Ahl. Games always encouraged people to use computers and that's as classic as it gets!
Yes. The UEFI Simple Filesystem Protocol is transparent to the UEFI app. The protocol gives you open/read/write/close calls, without needing to know the underlying fs.
I am investigating whether it would be feasible to do something similar for Python.
BASIC requires more support than you'd expect. Here's an interpreter, with a similarly long list of features it has to support:
https://www.moondew.com/basic/index.htm
UEFI "native" 114kb
Windows version 1.4mb
VHD version 12.6mb
None of them are huge but it does emphasize how much difference in resource savings is available if your program can run directly on "bare metal" without even an OS at all.
That's probably because there's a bug in the linker, which puts uninitialized variables in the data segment instead of bss. This means unlike the bare metal variant, the Windows executable is full of zeros.
This is a well known bug (see https://github.com/msys2/MINGW-packages/issues/18612 for example) which also affects my projects: https://gitlab.com/bztsrc/skandi The Linux CLI version is 216K, the Windows CLI version is 5.4M and the only difference is the lack of bss.
I think you can. UEFI is a firmware which comes with the hardware, stored on the motherboard. It's there and automatically runs when you turn on your machine.
It's okay to consider the firmware part of the "bare metal", IMHO.
On a PC I would think so. Using UEFI is not much less bare metal as using BIOS calls, at least. OTOH on an embedded device it would already sound so much less bare metal... I find it's a tricky question.
I learned to program on 8 bit micros, and created a rough boot-to-BASIC experiment ~15 years ago following the JeOS pattern. So this project sounds really exciting, but I wouldn't be interested in merely being a passive end user.
Besides UEFI, it has a Windows GDI port, but if it were FOSS one could add SDL backend for example and then one could compile it for Linux and Webassembly as well.
> PRINT PEEK ( A )
88
> A: pop %rax
I was 8 or 9 years old when the ZX Spectrum +2 arrived home.
I'm seriously considering installing this on an old laptop and giving it to my son when he's 8 years old, together with a hard-copy of a BASIC reference and a few simple programs and games to type in.
Getting a FAT32 filesystem on day 1 is already a huge jump from my childhood experience (loading from tape).
Sorry.
(Maybe something more like Hypercard I guess - or something that renders to HTML)
Fun fact, Scratch wasn't the first iteration of visual programming, and one could argue that Lego NXT was even more successful. https://www.nxtprograms.com/help/learn.html
Modern tech has a huge barrier to entry if you know nothing about it. I didn't even know what "install a program" was at the time, before soon learning it means "get in trouble" for messing up the (1) family computer.
But it is not bare metal yet and it is not BASIC.
looks like a lot of fun to explore and learn from thank you
There is correct time and correct season for everything.
-- 3 points by timonoko 11 days ago: Turbo Pascal on CP/M, MSX-DOS and MS-DOS:
I wrote Pascal for 8080 in 1976 and Finnish Army even paid some money for it. I was truly disappointed that Turbo Pascal did not copy my handy PORT-metavariable. You can write & read IO-ports without any extra hässle:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/qeJpYb94XzLBCE139
Can you assume that pretty much any computer these days provides UEFI firmware that supports ThoreauBASIC, or might some computers provide only a cut-down UEFI that doesn't provide all the functions you need?
Is there some way to investigate the UEFI implementation on any computer? Can you get to the UEFI shell on any computer somehow or is the UEFI shell a separate application you have to download from somewhere and install?
I realize these questions are getting far afield from what you wanted to tell us about, but UEFI is still kind of a mystery despite being installed almost everywhere -- it's hard to find explanations about it.