> Mathematics is the study of precisely imagined things. It's about imagining something so precisely that your idea of it is fully defined. There's no space for opinion or interpretation. Two mathematicians thinking about the same mathematical object, defined in the same way, are not thinking about two versions of it. They're actually thinking about the same object.
- Rob Miles
Any time I read something like this post, I can't help but think that it's people mimicking the language of mathematics because they don't understand its purpose. To them, math seems like pedantry, constantly obsessing about minor details that are seemingly irrelevant. When in reality, that obsession with full and complete definitions in math serves a purpose.
This discussion of salads serves no purpose. In fact, it's arguably meant to be confusing.
If taken 100% seriously, the post is just bad mathematics and bad linguistics. But I don't think it's intended to be rigorous work of either discipline.
But I do share the frustration regarding pedantry in mathematics, and I hate it when people mistake dictionary entries for attempts at rigorous definition.
The only additional realization you need is that things like “fruit salad” and “chicken salad” are using the word “salad” figuratively. There’s no reason to expect our definition of “salad” to cover figurative usage. After all, do you really expect to cover, for instance, “word salad”?
>After all, do you really expect to cover, for instance, “word salad”?
This is covered further down in the article where it's pointed out that one of the Merriam-Webster definitions is
>"A usually incongruous mixture : HODGEPODGE"
The author points out that Merriam-Webster actually has a looser definition of salad than they do, because the article is only considering edible things to count.
Also, I disagree - I don't think "fruit salad", or "chicken salad", or "egg salad" etc are "figurative" (not sure what you even mean by that), I would absolutely consider them legitimate salads.
Not saying I agree with the rest of the claims, but it is funny to think of a bowl of skittles as being a salad, and it's always a mindfuck to think about just how impossible it is to categorize every little thing into a neat little box.
> Also, I disagree - I don't think "fruit salad", or "chicken salad", or "egg salad" etc are "figurative" (not sure what you even mean by that), I would absolutely consider them legitimate salads.
I mean "figurative" in the typical sense: describing a thing using a word for a different thing in order to suggest a similarity between the two things. A fruit salad is fruit arranged similarly to how vegetables are arranged in a salad. A fruit pizza is a dish with a crust that looks similar to a pizza crust, topped with frosting and fruit in a way that evokes how pizza is topped with sauce, cheese, etc.
I'd like to point out that this isn't a theoretical question.
You can add a bit of kefir to a potato-based salad, and it will remain a salad. But at one point it will actually turn into a cold kefir soup, which is a thing that exists.
Personally, I think it's the floating. As soon as first ingredient becomes buoyant (even partially), it's a soup.
I refer to the Spanish definition of "ensalada": La ensalada es, en términos generales, un plato que combina verduras frías - a salad is a plate which combines cold vegetables.
Thus pizza, in Spanish, is not a salad, until about an hour after it comes out of the oven.
I enjoy this kind of thing. I definitely take objection to their entropy argument though. A cheeseburger with like 5 ingredients stacked into layers is not in the same entropy universe as a salad with hundreds of little leaves and chunks of food in a big pile. Criticizing the cube model on the basis that eating the food can change the category seems a little silly when even they would admit that a salad eaten down to just a singular crouton is no longer a salad.
It might seem trivial when debating silly topics, but when you get to the actual structure of reality, debating where one thing ends and another begins is really interesting.
I love the amount of effort that went into this, and find it very amusing. I've had similar forays into defining sandwiches, ravioli, soups, and so on, but never in such meticulous detail.
But taking it seriously, a word like "salad" is best understood, IMO, as a family resemblance [0]: a group of inconsistently overlapping properties. Or, you could understand it functionally/pragmatically (a salad is what I order when I want a salad), where the meaning is not derived from an internal property but from the social system that produced it.
For salad or sandwich, it's all rather unimportant, naturally. But I do think taking this step back and questioning what it even means for an utterance to have meaning can help dissolve some serious and otherwise contentious philosophical issues. ("Intelligence" seems to be a rather relevant example.)
Mathematical definition is enchanting to those of us with an inclination towards abstraction. But just because it's a noun doesn't mean it's a thing --- or at least, not a thing independently of the speaker and their community of speakers.
Yes, I actually think this sort of self-aware silliness (also hot dog sandwich, etc) could be looked at as kind of “koans” of rationality. Ultimately the goal might be to recognise that pure rationality is incompatible with the inherent nebulosity of applying “meanings” to the world, and to embrace that interplay!
Or more likely i’m overthinking it and they’re just a way to have a funny argument with friends.
I'm surprised to not find the word "salt" anywhere in the page. "Salad" essentially means "salted". Other words like "salsa"/sauce, and sausage share the same root: salt.
With this in mind it's more clear to me what a salad is. First you have to understand that we are talking about food preparations. A salad is not just raw ingredients on a plate. It is explicitly a preparation. Most preparations are cooked, but a salad is merely salted, or sauced, which itself contains salt.
I don't think actual salt is necessarily required, but you do need something to "bring together" the ingredients into a salad. A balsamic glaze is a good option if you are avoiding salt.
As non-soup eater I am strongly against use of term soup here. Surely soup also should be relatively strongly defined. And not used as adjective for wet. Clearly soups must have some water content level. Otherwise too many things would be soup. And those clearly are not soups.
So I ask first to properly have Soup Theory before using it in relation of describing things like salads.
I think there's a big problem with including an "untossed salad" in bounds. This is asking for trouble. Is an unbaked cake a cake? Obviously not. "Unbaked" is describing how it DIFFERS from a cake.
An untossed salad is an object which is like a salad, but that is not tossed. This means a salad must be tossed.
The author might not be aware of it but there have been extensive discussions and work about such terms in the philosophy of language in the past two decades (and earlier). I've heard whole lectures about whether fruit salad really is a salad, and the sandwich examples, too.
In my opinion, geometric meaning theories capture the associated problems fairly well, for example Conceptual Spaces. In linguistics, prototype theory and related approaches have dealt with them since the 1970s. That is not to say that the problems are solved but in my opinion many problems come from an artificial focus on logical concept decompositions and the fact that language doesn't work that way.
My 2 cents as a former philosopher who worked in this area.
Ontological discussions aside, I’ll share out my recipe for one of my favorite variations of a Caesar that embraces its origins. It’s one my friends usually request I make/bring.
It’s composed of four main parts, made in this order: the the meat, the croutons, the dressing, and the leaf.
For the meat we’re making a carne asada. You’ll want a flank or a skirt steak, or anything thinner with good marbling. For the marinade use olive oil as the base. I generally do around 2 cups of olive oil for a larger serving. Don’t sweat the exact amounts for a marinade. Add around 10% Apple cider vinegar, 10% red wine vinegar, and 10% lime juice. Use garlic, cumin, black pepper, salt, smoked chipotle peppers (you can also find them in an adobo sauce which works great - skip the sugar if you use the adobo), two spoonfuls of sugar.
Blend all of it together heavily, then pour it over the steak. I like a smoothie blender for this as they tend to work better for these small batches. IMPORTANT: don’t wash the blender, we’ll use the remains each time to influence the subsequent thing. Marinate the steak for at least 2 hours.
Next we’ll make the croutons. Store bought and homemade croutons are very different. For the marinade add a full clove of garlic into our used blender, black pepper, salt, two spoonfuls of nutritional yeast, a thumb sized portion of Parmesan, and rosemary. Add oil so it fills in the gaps in the blender. The goal is a paste, not a liquid. Blend it up. Cut up the bread into slices, then tear it into chunks. The tearing creates better texture. Put the paste in a bowl, smear it all around, dump the bread into, and toss it so it’s coating all the bread. Put it in the oven on a low broil (grill for those in Australia). Careful as it can burn easily. Check it every minute til browns, toss it, then put it back in. Repeat til the outer shell is dry but the inner part is still squishy. They shouldn’t be wet. Remove and chill for 10min before adding them.
For the dressing, half olive oil, 15% lime juice, 15% white wine vinegar, 10% pepitas, 10% Parmesan. This is your base. Add an egg yolk, black pepper, a squirt of mustard. Blend it up, taste it, adjust as needed. I skip the anchovy for the Mexican vibe this salad has as I don’t think it resonates well, but by all means go for it.
Grill the steak high heat.
For the leaf any salad leaf will do, but add radish slices as well.
Toss the leaf and the dressing, top with crouts, steak, pepitas, and Parmesan. Enjoy. Should take you 60-90min of prep.
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[ 0.22 ms ] story [ 7.7 ms ] threadPedantry is an excessive, boastful, or annoying focus on minor details, formal rules, and trivial points of learning.
Sufficiently advanced Pedantry is indistinguishable from Mathematics
- Rob Miles
Any time I read something like this post, I can't help but think that it's people mimicking the language of mathematics because they don't understand its purpose. To them, math seems like pedantry, constantly obsessing about minor details that are seemingly irrelevant. When in reality, that obsession with full and complete definitions in math serves a purpose.
This discussion of salads serves no purpose. In fact, it's arguably meant to be confusing.
But I do share the frustration regarding pedantry in mathematics, and I hate it when people mistake dictionary entries for attempts at rigorous definition.
> A salad must be a mixture of greens.
The only additional realization you need is that things like “fruit salad” and “chicken salad” are using the word “salad” figuratively. There’s no reason to expect our definition of “salad” to cover figurative usage. After all, do you really expect to cover, for instance, “word salad”?
My mums German potato salad disagrees
This is covered further down in the article where it's pointed out that one of the Merriam-Webster definitions is
>"A usually incongruous mixture : HODGEPODGE"
The author points out that Merriam-Webster actually has a looser definition of salad than they do, because the article is only considering edible things to count.
Also, I disagree - I don't think "fruit salad", or "chicken salad", or "egg salad" etc are "figurative" (not sure what you even mean by that), I would absolutely consider them legitimate salads.
Not saying I agree with the rest of the claims, but it is funny to think of a bowl of skittles as being a salad, and it's always a mindfuck to think about just how impossible it is to categorize every little thing into a neat little box.
I mean "figurative" in the typical sense: describing a thing using a word for a different thing in order to suggest a similarity between the two things. A fruit salad is fruit arranged similarly to how vegetables are arranged in a salad. A fruit pizza is a dish with a crust that looks similar to a pizza crust, topped with frosting and fruit in a way that evokes how pizza is topped with sauce, cheese, etc.
When does a soup become a smoothie (or vice versa)?
You can add a bit of kefir to a potato-based salad, and it will remain a salad. But at one point it will actually turn into a cold kefir soup, which is a thing that exists.
Personally, I think it's the floating. As soon as first ingredient becomes buoyant (even partially), it's a soup.
This goes to proves that you can reason your way out of everything.
Thus pizza, in Spanish, is not a salad, until about an hour after it comes out of the oven.
https://youtu.be/JgJUbmGDc6k?si=CvS6vuBU5R5JwoDg&t=10
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology
It might seem trivial when debating silly topics, but when you get to the actual structure of reality, debating where one thing ends and another begins is really interesting.
But taking it seriously, a word like "salad" is best understood, IMO, as a family resemblance [0]: a group of inconsistently overlapping properties. Or, you could understand it functionally/pragmatically (a salad is what I order when I want a salad), where the meaning is not derived from an internal property but from the social system that produced it.
For salad or sandwich, it's all rather unimportant, naturally. But I do think taking this step back and questioning what it even means for an utterance to have meaning can help dissolve some serious and otherwise contentious philosophical issues. ("Intelligence" seems to be a rather relevant example.)
Mathematical definition is enchanting to those of us with an inclination towards abstraction. But just because it's a noun doesn't mean it's a thing --- or at least, not a thing independently of the speaker and their community of speakers.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_resemblance
Or more likely i’m overthinking it and they’re just a way to have a funny argument with friends.
With this in mind it's more clear to me what a salad is. First you have to understand that we are talking about food preparations. A salad is not just raw ingredients on a plate. It is explicitly a preparation. Most preparations are cooked, but a salad is merely salted, or sauced, which itself contains salt.
I don't think actual salt is necessarily required, but you do need something to "bring together" the ingredients into a salad. A balsamic glaze is a good option if you are avoiding salt.
So I ask first to properly have Soup Theory before using it in relation of describing things like salads.
An untossed salad is an object which is like a salad, but that is not tossed. This means a salad must be tossed.
In my opinion, geometric meaning theories capture the associated problems fairly well, for example Conceptual Spaces. In linguistics, prototype theory and related approaches have dealt with them since the 1970s. That is not to say that the problems are solved but in my opinion many problems come from an artificial focus on logical concept decompositions and the fact that language doesn't work that way.
My 2 cents as a former philosopher who worked in this area.
It’s composed of four main parts, made in this order: the the meat, the croutons, the dressing, and the leaf.
For the meat we’re making a carne asada. You’ll want a flank or a skirt steak, or anything thinner with good marbling. For the marinade use olive oil as the base. I generally do around 2 cups of olive oil for a larger serving. Don’t sweat the exact amounts for a marinade. Add around 10% Apple cider vinegar, 10% red wine vinegar, and 10% lime juice. Use garlic, cumin, black pepper, salt, smoked chipotle peppers (you can also find them in an adobo sauce which works great - skip the sugar if you use the adobo), two spoonfuls of sugar.
Blend all of it together heavily, then pour it over the steak. I like a smoothie blender for this as they tend to work better for these small batches. IMPORTANT: don’t wash the blender, we’ll use the remains each time to influence the subsequent thing. Marinate the steak for at least 2 hours.
Next we’ll make the croutons. Store bought and homemade croutons are very different. For the marinade add a full clove of garlic into our used blender, black pepper, salt, two spoonfuls of nutritional yeast, a thumb sized portion of Parmesan, and rosemary. Add oil so it fills in the gaps in the blender. The goal is a paste, not a liquid. Blend it up. Cut up the bread into slices, then tear it into chunks. The tearing creates better texture. Put the paste in a bowl, smear it all around, dump the bread into, and toss it so it’s coating all the bread. Put it in the oven on a low broil (grill for those in Australia). Careful as it can burn easily. Check it every minute til browns, toss it, then put it back in. Repeat til the outer shell is dry but the inner part is still squishy. They shouldn’t be wet. Remove and chill for 10min before adding them.
For the dressing, half olive oil, 15% lime juice, 15% white wine vinegar, 10% pepitas, 10% Parmesan. This is your base. Add an egg yolk, black pepper, a squirt of mustard. Blend it up, taste it, adjust as needed. I skip the anchovy for the Mexican vibe this salad has as I don’t think it resonates well, but by all means go for it.
Grill the steak high heat.
For the leaf any salad leaf will do, but add radish slices as well.
Toss the leaf and the dressing, top with crouts, steak, pepitas, and Parmesan. Enjoy. Should take you 60-90min of prep.