Cradle of civilization is not an odd culture. Babylon, meaning Gate of God, is one of the more profoundly influential urban civilizational clusters in human history.
Curious indeed that the Yale Babylonian Collection should, out of all the possible options, choose the cooking of Ancient Babylon. I wonder what we should read into this. I have some theories, but it might be dangerous for me even to mention that I have them.
> The kind of beets used in such an ancient recipe should not be different from the beets we use today, even in name. We read in Dictionary of Assyrian Botany (by Campbell Thompson, 1948) that in the ancient Mesopotamian region it was called ‘shumundar,’ it was as red as blood, and has a spinning-top shape (pp. 49, 51).
> Modern sheep grow their wool continuously, but that took a while to breed in.
No they don't.
In the summer their wool starts to grow out much thinner, like maybe a quarter as thick - it's really noticeable. This gives what's called a "rise", a gap between the sheep's skin and the thicker coarser wool. Once that's high enough to get shears (or these days, machine clippers which are like a big beard trimmer) into you can shear the fleece off.
If there's no rise you haven't a hope in hell of cutting it.
If there's a good rise it practically falls off.
If you leave them long enough or if the rise starts growing in too soon, they'll start "casting" where their wool just falls off in big chunks. This is actually quite dangerous for them because it's itchy and they roll on their backs to scratch, and get stuck upside down with their legs in the air and suffocate.
And you thought sheep farming was easy and fun ;-)
I thought animal farming in general is an arcane science.
My friends have goats but they aren't farmers and they haven't got a clue how to care for them. The females sometimes are left with milk in their breasts after their young are weaned and one of my friends will get anxious about that and ask us to help her milk them. It's impossible. You can't milk a goat that doesn't want to be milked. If you push them too hard they lie down so you can't reach their teats and that's that unless you want to have three people lifting the goat up and another one trying to milk her while she squirms and kicks. I don't trust the milk either. Once in a while they succeed in milking a goat and when I tried the milk (after boiling it) it was sort of gritty, like it was mixed with sand. It was not impurities from the environment because I filtered it through a muslin so I think the animal may have had some infection like a mastitis or something that affected the milk's texture.
I bet farmers know exactly what to do about all that or probably they know how to get the animals used to milking when they're still young so that the won't resist it that much. I've watched videos of goats being milked and it looks almost effortless when a pump is used. The goats just line up in their feeding trays and then someone walks up to them from behind, pumps out their tits and moves to the next one, bish bash bosh. My friends don't even have a dedicated structure to feed the goats, we just throw hay for them on the ground so they end up fighting.
My friends really have no idea how to care for the goats, it's rather sad. The owner of the farm has even said he wants to get "wild" goats that don't need to be cared for. By that he means a herd of goats that have gone feral and roam the hills in a village nearby. He thinks because nobody actively cares for them and the herd persists that must mean the goats are somehow self-sufficient. I think that's a big misunderstanding. Domesticated animals need a lot of care one way or another.
I think I'd prefer to have sheep though, if I had animals. Sheep look much nicer than goats.
I absolutely love goat's milk and I would love to keep goats, but they are every possible kind of a pain in the tits to deal with.
A neighbour of mine had a goat that we thought had some terrible thing happen because she was choking and gagging and frothing at the mouth like some cartoon rabid animal. Nope, far simpler. She'd eaten a grey lycra-and-elastic sports bra off the washing line, got a bra strap hooked over her tongue, and the rest of the bra down her throat. Hooked the strap with my finger, pulled it out in one quick deft rather unpleasantly squelchy motion, and ten seconds later you'd never have thought there had been anything wrong with her.
The bra went in the bin.
Bloody goats.
Your friends either need to learn how to care for goats - if only there was some world-wide repository of knowledge with books and videos and stuff! - or give them a good home somewhere else. They're probably hard to milk because as you say they're not used to being handled, and it may be too late to do that by now. If that's the case, you may never be able to milk them no matter how you handle them, and maybe you can breed from them, or maybe you can give them a nice new home, cosy and fragrant, along with some onion, garlic, ginger, cumin, coriander, and chilli, with a kilo or so of spinach too.
As an aside, you probably want to get yourself a copy of "Self-Sufficiency" by John Seymour, and have a read of that.
XD My friend got her skirt munched. While wearing it.
I totally think it's like you say: the goats have never learned to be milked and now they'll never learned. The new generation might, but who's going to teach them? Not me because I'm only there half the year (when it's hot and I don't want to move).
>> As an aside, you probably want to get yourself a copy of "Self-Sufficiency" by John Seymour, and have a read of that.
I've made this Roman recipe probably a dozen times and everyone who's tried it really likes it [1].
The strange ingredients are garum [2] and asafoetida [3]. The former is just a fish sauce, so that's not hard to substitute, but you have to find asafoetida on the Internet or at an Indian food store.
I can usually find hing (asafoetida) in grocery stores in certain more populous parts of Canada in the spice section, it's quite a good garlic substitute for those who can't do garlic
It's used by Janes as eating root vegetables like onions or garlic is discouraged or forbidden in that religion [1].
(Un)related: onions and garlic are pretty close to each other. Chicago is named after šikaakwa, [2] the native word for the local Allium that's alternately called "wild onion" or "wild garlic" in English [3]. You can hear a similar word for onion in a different Algonquin language, Ojibwe [4].
Came here to mention Max Miller as well. Amazing work putting together historical context and recipes. Always fun, fascinating, and the recipes are generally very approachable.
I've also made the Babylonian stew from this recipe, and it's rich and hearty. It's easy to see how this would knock the...sandals off of ancient people.
Other ancient recipes...let's just say that humans have very much not held the same tastes over the eons. Some recipes were incongruent or sweet and savory in a strange way, or simply a flex about how many spices you had access to and cold throw in a dish, not about what it really tasted like. YMMV.
I'm reading Lloyd Llewellyn-Jones' Babylon - The Biography of a Metropolis which just recently came out, and that's how I ended up hearing about Yale's culinary adventures.
The book, btw, is kind of breezy in style and 'he of many LLs in his name' (Lālu-mullālu in Akkadian as suggested by my friendly AI) uses a lot of contemporary pop (nerdy) references to carry the narrative, yet very engaging and am learning a lot about this fabled city (and civilization).
Lamb is quite popular down here in Australia. I usually keep some rendered fat from my roasts etc. Sometimes I cook other meats with it and it adds heaps of flavour. I do that with pork fat as well.
if you have a good butcher they might be able to get you some that you can render, but its a hassle. I've done this for beef fat to make some british pie things.
In Australia where lamb is more common than in the US, it'd be pretty easy to keep the fat after roasting a lamb shoulder, or to freeze the fatty offcuts from forequarter chops and render them after I had enough.
I’m not sure that it’s dominant anywhere other than Greece and the Balkans, but lamb would be quite popular in a lot of European countries. Pretty much anywhere on the Mediterranean, plus Ireland and Britain, at least.
I’m not sure there’s anywhere in Europe where it would be as unusual as it is in the US (where it definitely does seem to be seen as kinda vaguely exotic.)
I'd say that in Greece the dominant meats are pork and chicken. That's the main meat in all the grill houses and the meat in gyros and souvlaki. Lamb is beloved but eaten more rarely, particularly in religious feasts, especially Easter Sunday where the tradition is to put a lamb on a spit and eat everything off it down to the bones (except the entrails that are made in a special soup to end Lent, or various sweet meat skewers like kokoretsi, gardoumba, splinandero, etc). It's also more expensive than pork and chicken so it tends to be left for special dinners at home.
But, honestly, nothing beats a nice pilafi with lamb, with garlic wedges and slowly cooked until the meat falls off the bone.
> "Like most premodern cooking manuals, the Babylonian recipes rarely list the quantities of each ingredient, and so basic experimentation is needed to determine viable proportions for the assembly of a dough or the salting of a stew."
They were sending pages to the people on the kickstarter list, effectively crowd sourcing recipe testing. That was quite clever I thought. And their socials keep showing videos of the actual recipies etc. This is a legit book. It's just a shame that it carries that price tag. I could do with a less "beautiful" version if it was reasonably priced. Maybe a future edition.
Honestly the recipe sounds like adding beets to a regular lamb stew recipe. If I havent watch this video and saw the dish, I would think some fancy restaurant is trying to be "innovative"
He basically covers a different historic dish every week ranging from the oldest recorded dishes to cafeteria food from 1990; or what they served on the Titanic, etc.
I mean, this had to be a dish for royalty or something right? How on earth that they have all of those fresh and dried ingredients on hand 4000 years ago.
Which is a shame because you can eat so well today you can easily skip the dead animal carcass. They couldn't really do that back then in many places with short growing seasons.
Why would you skip the dead animal? That is by far the best part of every meal.
PS don’t jump into the whole animal cruelty spiel. I’m aware and I agree, it’s just that I don’t care. Vegetarian food, aside from maybe the narrow slice with how the Indians prepare it, is completely unsatisfying and I’m OK with animals suffering as long as I can continue to have meat because it’s just so delicious. That being said, I would eagerly switch to lab grown meat if they can do it correctly.
I rarely participate here, but I am enthralled by your comment - I need to understand why you don't care? Can this attitude be taught to others as it seems like a superpower? Or is this some performative forum edginess that I don't get?
India is the most populous country in the world so it's hardly a "narrow slice". Anyway, Italians and Mexicans are just as good with vegetables.
Even people who like steak grind some plant on it to make it taste good (pepper). Basically all interesting flavours come from plants. Meat just tastes of meat.
Yeah but India heavily uses dairy products to make up for the taste and protein deficiency. Vegetables are goddamn delicious but in a different way. I’ll eat vegetables all day but they are not nutritious enough and “satisfying” enough to complete the meal.
India absolutely does not "heavily" use dairy. In fact, they use very very little. Ghee is the most common dairy based item but it's only used as an oil for frying.
> I’ll eat vegetables all day but they are not nutritious enough and “satisfying” enough to complete the meal.
You have some weird obsession with meat. I'm not vegan nor vegetarian but eat at least half my meals without meat. There are plenty of other sources of proteins and flavour comes from all over. Vegetables absolutely are the bigger source of flavour. Onions, hot peppers, various dried spices, garlics. Food would be bland as shit without vegetables.
The Babylonian Collection was left to Yale by J.P. Morgan in 1913. His estate at the time was estimated to be worth about $68.3M ($1.59B in 2024 dollars).
When I read that on his wikipedia page I thought "is that all?" I know I'm probably missing a bunch of other considerations, but geez, the 500th spot on the 2024 Forbes World's Billionaires list was shared by multiple individuals worth approximately $5.8B.
"Rocket, coriander, cumin? Somehow I doubt the Babylonians had Mexican herbs and spices." Turns out I was wrong about where these come from! All three are native to the Mediterranean/Middle East and would certainly have been used in this recipe at the time.
83 comments
[ 2.5 ms ] story [ 1101 ms ] thread> The kind of beets used in such an ancient recipe should not be different from the beets we use today, even in name. We read in Dictionary of Assyrian Botany (by Campbell Thompson, 1948) that in the ancient Mesopotamian region it was called ‘shumundar,’ it was as red as blood, and has a spinning-top shape (pp. 49, 51).
This period is early enough that sheep weren't yet sheared.
And in nature sheep drop their coats without shearing.
Modern sheep grow their wool continuously, but that took a while to breed in.
No they don't.
In the summer their wool starts to grow out much thinner, like maybe a quarter as thick - it's really noticeable. This gives what's called a "rise", a gap between the sheep's skin and the thicker coarser wool. Once that's high enough to get shears (or these days, machine clippers which are like a big beard trimmer) into you can shear the fleece off.
If there's no rise you haven't a hope in hell of cutting it.
If there's a good rise it practically falls off.
If you leave them long enough or if the rise starts growing in too soon, they'll start "casting" where their wool just falls off in big chunks. This is actually quite dangerous for them because it's itchy and they roll on their backs to scratch, and get stuck upside down with their legs in the air and suffocate.
And you thought sheep farming was easy and fun ;-)
My friends have goats but they aren't farmers and they haven't got a clue how to care for them. The females sometimes are left with milk in their breasts after their young are weaned and one of my friends will get anxious about that and ask us to help her milk them. It's impossible. You can't milk a goat that doesn't want to be milked. If you push them too hard they lie down so you can't reach their teats and that's that unless you want to have three people lifting the goat up and another one trying to milk her while she squirms and kicks. I don't trust the milk either. Once in a while they succeed in milking a goat and when I tried the milk (after boiling it) it was sort of gritty, like it was mixed with sand. It was not impurities from the environment because I filtered it through a muslin so I think the animal may have had some infection like a mastitis or something that affected the milk's texture.
I bet farmers know exactly what to do about all that or probably they know how to get the animals used to milking when they're still young so that the won't resist it that much. I've watched videos of goats being milked and it looks almost effortless when a pump is used. The goats just line up in their feeding trays and then someone walks up to them from behind, pumps out their tits and moves to the next one, bish bash bosh. My friends don't even have a dedicated structure to feed the goats, we just throw hay for them on the ground so they end up fighting.
My friends really have no idea how to care for the goats, it's rather sad. The owner of the farm has even said he wants to get "wild" goats that don't need to be cared for. By that he means a herd of goats that have gone feral and roam the hills in a village nearby. He thinks because nobody actively cares for them and the herd persists that must mean the goats are somehow self-sufficient. I think that's a big misunderstanding. Domesticated animals need a lot of care one way or another.
I think I'd prefer to have sheep though, if I had animals. Sheep look much nicer than goats.
A neighbour of mine had a goat that we thought had some terrible thing happen because she was choking and gagging and frothing at the mouth like some cartoon rabid animal. Nope, far simpler. She'd eaten a grey lycra-and-elastic sports bra off the washing line, got a bra strap hooked over her tongue, and the rest of the bra down her throat. Hooked the strap with my finger, pulled it out in one quick deft rather unpleasantly squelchy motion, and ten seconds later you'd never have thought there had been anything wrong with her.
The bra went in the bin.
Bloody goats.
Your friends either need to learn how to care for goats - if only there was some world-wide repository of knowledge with books and videos and stuff! - or give them a good home somewhere else. They're probably hard to milk because as you say they're not used to being handled, and it may be too late to do that by now. If that's the case, you may never be able to milk them no matter how you handle them, and maybe you can breed from them, or maybe you can give them a nice new home, cosy and fragrant, along with some onion, garlic, ginger, cumin, coriander, and chilli, with a kilo or so of spinach too.
As an aside, you probably want to get yourself a copy of "Self-Sufficiency" by John Seymour, and have a read of that.
XD My friend got her skirt munched. While wearing it.
I totally think it's like you say: the goats have never learned to be milked and now they'll never learned. The new generation might, but who's going to teach them? Not me because I'm only there half the year (when it's hot and I don't want to move).
>> As an aside, you probably want to get yourself a copy of "Self-Sufficiency" by John Seymour, and have a read of that.
Thanks. I'll have a look.
The strange ingredients are garum [2] and asafoetida [3]. The former is just a fish sauce, so that's not hard to substitute, but you have to find asafoetida on the Internet or at an Indian food store.
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LynenQ5h2Y
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asafoetida
(Un)related: onions and garlic are pretty close to each other. Chicago is named after šikaakwa, [2] the native word for the local Allium that's alternately called "wild onion" or "wild garlic" in English [3]. You can hear a similar word for onion in a different Algonquin language, Ojibwe [4].
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism#Ahimsa_in_practice:_Ja...
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago#Etymology_and_nickname...
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allium_tricoccum
4. https://ojibwe.lib.umn.edu/main-entry/zhigaagawanzh-na
This guy is a treasure.
the parthian chicken was stupid easy and tasty
I've also made the Babylonian stew from this recipe, and it's rich and hearty. It's easy to see how this would knock the...sandals off of ancient people.
Other ancient recipes...let's just say that humans have very much not held the same tastes over the eons. Some recipes were incongruent or sweet and savory in a strange way, or simply a flex about how many spices you had access to and cold throw in a dish, not about what it really tasted like. YMMV.
The book, btw, is kind of breezy in style and 'he of many LLs in his name' (Lālu-mullālu in Akkadian as suggested by my friendly AI) uses a lot of contemporary pop (nerdy) references to carry the narrative, yet very engaging and am learning a lot about this fabled city (and civilization).
It sets certain records straight ...
I’m not sure there’s anywhere in Europe where it would be as unusual as it is in the US (where it definitely does seem to be seen as kinda vaguely exotic.)
But, honestly, nothing beats a nice pilafi with lamb, with garlic wedges and slowly cooked until the meat falls off the bone.
https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/ancient-mesopota...
> "Like most premodern cooking manuals, the Babylonian recipes rarely list the quantities of each ingredient, and so basic experimentation is needed to determine viable proportions for the assembly of a dough or the salting of a stew."
So the quantity of salt is not specified in the original recipe, therefore it could be the same as any present cook would choose.
It's quite expensive though, but it does look amazing.
He basically covers a different historic dish every week ranging from the oldest recorded dishes to cafeteria food from 1990; or what they served on the Titanic, etc.
It's a great channel, and covers history well.
https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/ancient-mesopota...
PS don’t jump into the whole animal cruelty spiel. I’m aware and I agree, it’s just that I don’t care. Vegetarian food, aside from maybe the narrow slice with how the Indians prepare it, is completely unsatisfying and I’m OK with animals suffering as long as I can continue to have meat because it’s just so delicious. That being said, I would eagerly switch to lab grown meat if they can do it correctly.
Even people who like steak grind some plant on it to make it taste good (pepper). Basically all interesting flavours come from plants. Meat just tastes of meat.
> I’ll eat vegetables all day but they are not nutritious enough and “satisfying” enough to complete the meal.
You have some weird obsession with meat. I'm not vegan nor vegetarian but eat at least half my meals without meat. There are plenty of other sources of proteins and flavour comes from all over. Vegetables absolutely are the bigger source of flavour. Onions, hot peppers, various dried spices, garlics. Food would be bland as shit without vegetables.
While some have to be cultivated, a lot these herbs just grow as weeds in the Mediterranean area.
When I read that on his wikipedia page I thought "is that all?" I know I'm probably missing a bunch of other considerations, but geez, the 500th spot on the 2024 Forbes World's Billionaires list was shared by multiple individuals worth approximately $5.8B.