>“CAMP has had both written and verbal agreements/understandings with property owners and landlords regarding murals on Clarion Alley for 34, going on 35 years,” read a statement from Clarion Alley Mural Project.
This should be obvious, I think. Why would you assume that high-quality murals created by an established institution were done without proper legal arrangements?
Yeah, my complaint was with the article. Why leave out such an important piece of information? Why not dig into the agreements and understandings? You say it is obvious, but to me it is not. I know of several works of wall-sized graffiti and similar that just had a verbal agreement, which would be very vulnerable if the property got new owners or management.
As I understand it, here in Norway the propery owner would be entitled to destroy the murials entirely (but not alter or mutilate), by say painting over them in entirety. However they should then notify the copyright holder (artist) in advance so the copyright holder has time to document the murial.
Sounds like this wasn't done, but I don't know if there are similar laws over there.
It depends what the mural was of? If it was a pro KKK mural I would object. If it was some of the pictures in the article, that would be pretty sweet. If it was some of the other murals I've seen, I would be thrilled.
If you bought a house on Clarion Alley, would you be a douche bag and paint over the murals? That's the actual question about this situation. What is your hypothetical about?
If my property bordered an alley where literally every surface had been covered in murals for decades, and I discovered that the organized non-profit coordinating murals in that alley, who had a long-standing relationship with all of the property owners, had set an artist up to paint a new mural there, then I would be happy, yes.
Or if I were unhappy, I would talk to the artist and/or the mural organization about it, ideally before they had put too much time into the project.
I certainly wouldn't wait more than a decade after the murals were finished and then on a whim decide to paint over a bunch of murals that took various artists weeks or months of effort, without talking to anyone.
I don't know why you are putting "mural" in scare quotes. The works in question are clearly murals, not just graffiti tags or something.
Saying "It's Private Property" shouldn't necessarily just end the debate. Private property does have a uniquely powerful status in US law, but its absolute ability to override all other concerns, such as collective social needs, cultural expectations and norms, environmental concerns, and so on, at least deserves discussion. Finding the right balance between private property rights and the public good is something that courts continue to wrestle with.
>“CAMP has had both written and verbal agreements/understandings with property owners and landlords regarding murals on Clarion Alley for 34, going on 35 years,” read a statement from Clarion Alley Mural Project.
If there was an agreement in place, property rights would protect the murals from vandalism by the property owners, not the other way 'round.
I think you should consider why you immediately, and incorrectly, jump to the defense of moneyed interests over artists and community organizations.
written and verbal agreements is incredibly vague. This could mean as little as "Sure you can paint a mural on my building", or any number of agreements that don't transfer ownership rights. They don't say that they have a written agreement allowing indefinite usage of the wall for murals. Allowing a mural to be painted is not a transference of ownership and is not an agreement for the owner to never paint over it.
> I think you should consider why you immediately, and incorrectly, jump to the defense of moneyed interests over artists and community organizations.
Because property rights are good and allow for a functioning society.
I think I saw elsewhere that the owner has been the same for 35 years or something like that. So there is no relevant transfer of ownership.
Your opening statement here is pretty ridiculous I need to say. "Written agreements doesn't mean shit!" Then you just make up a scenario where the contract wouldn't hold up.
His point is that "written and vegan agreements" is not the same thing as "has a contract" and that the legal niceties need to be respected or else it would be impossible to get anything done.
Asking "is it cool if I paint your wall?" more than three decades ago doesn't create a contract or protect the work.
I highly doubt that street artists made a legally binding agreement with the owners that protects the art for the simple reason that this would be a ridiculous encumbrance on the property that would be unacceptable to most sane people.
Seeing the world through property rights is so one-dimensional and devoid of any creative thought it makes me sad as well. Eventually this is the SV ethos - own, conquer, extract, no space for externalities like simple urban pleasures.
Libertarians are unable to conceptualize what 'art' even is. It doesn't bring in financial benefit, so what is it for? If it's not an advertising board with your company's logo on it, it's worthless wasted space.
Painting your art on someone else's private property is not.
Pushing your political agenda in public spaces is especially not cool. I just want to walk outside and enjoy the world, don't want your political agenda pushed on me.
Quite a shame to lose art like this, but without a process to preserve, display, and maintain such artwork, (like a museum is equipped to do), this kind of destruction is inevitable. At the very least we can be grateful for all the years it was available, but such is the way of all things, nothing lasts forever, and I think the story of the end of such works of art is also part of the artwork as well.
But that's pretty much what that institution does. It might not seem that impressive because it's a neighborhood rather than a city- or state-level institution, but they've been going for decades and organize things like mural tours, regular cleaning and so on; I used to live in that neighborhood and remember as being very proactive about taking care of murals as a community resource, fostering young artists etc.
I think what happened here is the real estate management company viewed the murals as an encumbrance on the property (that would need some sort of negotiation or easement as a condition of resale) and decided to hire a contractor to make the problem go away, calculating that a fine (contractual or city-imposed) would be significantly less than the potential increase in sale value. I feel the contractor who painted it over is partly responsible morally, but legally and realistically such people are hired to do what they're told; asking questions about whether the right permits or agreements are in place for destruction of the artwork is a good way to get blacklisted by property management companies.
The property management industry seems weirdly hostile to any sort of public art. An infrastructural utility building near me had been decorated for years with ~15 mounted images by local artists highlighting interesting things about the geography and history of the area. A year ago the property manager had the entire building repainted in dull battleship gray (probably because it was cheaper than cleaning it), destroying all the artwork in the process. Now much of the building is covered in graffiti (mostly ugly low-effort tags), foot traffic along that street seems to have fallen, and perhaps not coincidentally there has been a rise in vehicle break-ins.
The property is owned by Makras Real Estate a notorious slumlord who has been convicted of fraud. They don't respect their tenants, they're surely not going to respect public art.
> “We’ve tried to approach what happened assuming there was no ill intent,” Torres of CAMP wrote in the Thursday letter. “Still, after nearly 35 years of stewarding this alley, we have to ask: How does the erasure of four longstanding community murals happen without any communication with CAMP or the artists involved?”
Feels like the most plausible explanation of what happened is the property owners got a blight citation[1] for graffiti on some other part of the building, and either misunderstood or miscommunicated to their employee what was supposed to be removed. I don't know why everyone is jumping to either "the owners are assholes" or "the owners get to do what they want it's their property."
Clarion Alley is totally worth a visit when you're in San Francisco. It's right in the middle of the Mission near a bunch of great places to eat and drink. Balmy Alley is a 10 minute walk away and another great street art gallery.
Clarion Alley Mural Project does great work maintaining Clarion Alley. (Including relations with property owners - this problem is an anomaly, there's been art there successfully for over 30 years.) Also worth knowing about Precita Eyes, a local community organization that manages murals in a lot of the city.
Looked it up on Google. I don't like people claiming public space to push their personal agenda. Those alleys are for everyone, stop using it for your personal agenda. Please make a-political art.
Common characteristics of public art are public accessibility, public realm placement, community involvement, public process (including public funding); these works can be permanent or temporary.
Independent art created or staged in or near the public realm (for example, graffiti, street art) lacks official or tangible public sanction has not been recognized as part of the public art genre,[8] however the popularity of some street artists have led to this notion being reconsidered by many.[9][10] Such unofficial artwork may exist on private or public property immediately adjacent to the public realm, or in natural settings but, however ubiquitous,[11][12] it sometimes falls outside the definition of public art by its absence of public process or public sanction as "bona fide" public art.[1]
Isn't inherent impermanence one of the factors that make street art art? If we treat graffiti like museum pieces exposed outside instead of inside, we don't do justice to them (and we end up in these kind of ridiculous situations). Graffiti are defaced, painted over, repainted, even modified over time. They're intrinsecally not immutable. If we think of them as immutable, they're just spray-painted art brut that happens to be on a wall instead of a picture panel - not very interesting.
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[ 2.0 ms ] story [ 10.4 ms ] threadhttps://missionlocal.org/2026/09/four-murals-in-clarion-alle...
>“CAMP has had both written and verbal agreements/understandings with property owners and landlords regarding murals on Clarion Alley for 34, going on 35 years,” read a statement from Clarion Alley Mural Project.
This should be obvious, I think. Why would you assume that high-quality murals created by an established institution were done without proper legal arrangements?
This is a completely fair assumption in San Francisco of all places.
As I understand it, here in Norway the propery owner would be entitled to destroy the murials entirely (but not alter or mutilate), by say painting over them in entirety. However they should then notify the copyright holder (artist) in advance so the copyright holder has time to document the murial.
Sounds like this wasn't done, but I don't know if there are similar laws over there.
[1]: https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=graffiti
[2]: https://www.britannica.com/art/graffiti-art
[3]: https://snl.no/graffiti
Or if I were unhappy, I would talk to the artist and/or the mural organization about it, ideally before they had put too much time into the project.
I certainly wouldn't wait more than a decade after the murals were finished and then on a whim decide to paint over a bunch of murals that took various artists weeks or months of effort, without talking to anyone.
I don't know why you are putting "mural" in scare quotes. The works in question are clearly murals, not just graffiti tags or something.
Private Property is how. People don't own other people's property for abstract reasons like they joined a club that once painted graffiti on walls.
>“CAMP has had both written and verbal agreements/understandings with property owners and landlords regarding murals on Clarion Alley for 34, going on 35 years,” read a statement from Clarion Alley Mural Project.
If there was an agreement in place, property rights would protect the murals from vandalism by the property owners, not the other way 'round.
I think you should consider why you immediately, and incorrectly, jump to the defense of moneyed interests over artists and community organizations.
> I think you should consider why you immediately, and incorrectly, jump to the defense of moneyed interests over artists and community organizations.
Because property rights are good and allow for a functioning society.
Your opening statement here is pretty ridiculous I need to say. "Written agreements doesn't mean shit!" Then you just make up a scenario where the contract wouldn't hold up.
Asking "is it cool if I paint your wall?" more than three decades ago doesn't create a contract or protect the work.
I highly doubt that street artists made a legally binding agreement with the owners that protects the art for the simple reason that this would be a ridiculous encumbrance on the property that would be unacceptable to most sane people.
Painting your art on someone else's private property is not.
Pushing your political agenda in public spaces is especially not cool. I just want to walk outside and enjoy the world, don't want your political agenda pushed on me.
i mean a modicum of reflection shows you that what you are suggesting would in fact be imposing your own political agenda on everyone else.
Comments about “private property” show a lack of cultural awareness. Such a shame.
and vice versa.
”Cool!”
“So do we”
”NooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!”
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2026/jun/08/dallas-fifa...
I think what happened here is the real estate management company viewed the murals as an encumbrance on the property (that would need some sort of negotiation or easement as a condition of resale) and decided to hire a contractor to make the problem go away, calculating that a fine (contractual or city-imposed) would be significantly less than the potential increase in sale value. I feel the contractor who painted it over is partly responsible morally, but legally and realistically such people are hired to do what they're told; asking questions about whether the right permits or agreements are in place for destruction of the artwork is a good way to get blacklisted by property management companies.
The property management industry seems weirdly hostile to any sort of public art. An infrastructural utility building near me had been decorated for years with ~15 mounted images by local artists highlighting interesting things about the geography and history of the area. A year ago the property manager had the entire building repainted in dull battleship gray (probably because it was cheaper than cleaning it), destroying all the artwork in the process. Now much of the building is covered in graffiti (mostly ugly low-effort tags), foot traffic along that street seems to have fallen, and perhaps not coincidentally there has been a rise in vehicle break-ins.
Feels like the most plausible explanation of what happened is the property owners got a blight citation[1] for graffiti on some other part of the building, and either misunderstood or miscommunicated to their employee what was supposed to be removed. I don't know why everyone is jumping to either "the owners are assholes" or "the owners get to do what they want it's their property."
[1] https://sfpublicworks.org/index.php/services/community-prese...
Clarion Alley Mural Project does great work maintaining Clarion Alley. (Including relations with property owners - this problem is an anomaly, there's been art there successfully for over 30 years.) Also worth knowing about Precita Eyes, a local community organization that manages murals in a lot of the city.