We (the usa) can choose to leave at any time. Crying about the effects of your own actions while choosing not to fix it is madness. Don't push your madness on the rest of us
Just think of all the trouble that just 2 dudes are causing in the world. If Putin would simply leave Ukraine and if Trump would just quietly withdraw from the aggression towards Iran things would really calm down. We'd probably get back to lower gas prices as well as lower interest rates. (but of course, neither of them have the temperament to be able to admit that they were wrong)
A lot of it isn't about these people in particular. It's about what's happening in their countries. Like it or not Trump is more of a symptom of what's going on in the US than the cause. I know that sounds weird but the inflation that's been eating away at a middle class lifestyle for decades is most of what's getting people so riled up, and the unwillingness to reckon with that by "normal" politicians is what got Trump elected.
Perhaps they are closet climate activists, because raising the price of gas significantly and persistently is realistically the only way we’re ever going to stop burning it.
That's another funny consequence of this conflict: Trump is proud of himself, because he thinks lower exports hurt China, while US oil companies are making record profits. In reality: China's oil reserves are so huge they can last really long time, while their speed up their transformation to renewable energy.
There's a third dude missing in that list to complete the new axis of evil: Netanyahu, without which Trump, as stupid as he may be, would probably never have attacked Iran.
Putin will end the war in Ukraine if Europe's mediocre political class and NATO stop expanding eastward. That Putin gives back what he conquered through war, keep dreaming.
It was deeply stupid for us to start an unnecessary war with Iran, but it's not clear that we can leave any time. Iran is suggesting they will charge fees to traverse the strait, (and attack shirkers) and it's also not clear that Iran has the remaining navy to successfully clear the mines.
It was incredibly stupid to start this war, but we're now fairly well stuck.
I recently read a book from 2015 on the stuxnet hack and I big part of the story is how every president knew how made a military strike would go. Surreal to read now and the book gave me so much clarity on the current war.
Highly recommend if you like tech AND want some WW II forward context on Iran.
> Iran is suggesting they will charge fees to traverse the strait,
That's perfectly fine. Let freedom of navigation end. The United States uses its natural resources to wreak havoc on the world, why shouldn't countries gifted with Geography not push their advantage? Particularly when there is no world order and US bombs anyone it wishes whenever it wants? Why should Iran play nice when all it got in return is US aggression? Why should any State adhere to international law when the law is only applied when it's beneficial to the world powers?
> The United States uses its natural resources to wreak havoc on the world, why shouldn't countries gifted with Geography not push their advantage? Particularly when there is no world order
You can push an advantage, but the whole "no world order" issue will result in severe repercussions if you start to mess with the wrong people. This is not unique to America.
> US bombs anyone it wishes whenever it wants?
Oh please.
> Why should Iran play nice when all it got in return is US aggression?
Iran playing nice? Are you serious? You know that it's possible to criticize America while not backing a government that has killed at least 40K of its own citizens _this year_. Acting like Iran and its government are somehow passive in global conflicts is insane.
I mean, between bombing fishermen, Iran during negotiations (twice), kidnapping president, threatening Greenland, supporting far right worldwide, supporting Putin, supporting genocide in Gaza a lot more then any other country, supporting far right where possible ...
The fact is, Iran was not attacking Hormuz. Iran was abiding international agreeemets which USA broken. Iran is not nice country, but they had policy of strategic restraint and did not even responded to first negotiation bombing.
The biggest threat to global stability right now is USA. Because the country is violent, crazy and still have a lot of power.
Iran is far from innocent and did respond to the 2025 attacks by launching missiles so not sure why you’re claiming otherwise. Iran has been lying about nuclear ambition for decades and funding terrorist groups. Do you want another crazy country to have a nuclear weapon? Russia and DPRK already threatening everyone with nuclear
This is FUD. Israel is by far the most deranged/belligerent nation on the planet and they have nuclear weapons. Why don't you just admit that you are racist?
Jumping to verbal name calling shows you’re immature. I called out behavior across three geographies, none of which are the same race. Clear u have an agenda against Israel instead of addressing substance. Israel isn’t threatening nuclear on neighbors like Russia annd DPRK and won’t even admit they have it. Go look in a mirror when calling some1 racist
> Jumping to verbal name calling shows you’re immature.
> Go look in a mirror when calling some1 racist
How ironic you call me immature for calling you racist but you do the same. Really goes to show the extent of your thinking process. One set of rules for me, another set for thee.
> Iran is far from innocent and did respond to the 2025 attacks by launching missiles so not sure why you’re claiming otherwise. Iran has been lying about nuclear ambition for decades and funding terrorist groups. Do you want another crazy country to have a nuclear weapon? Russia and DPRK already threatening everyone with nuclear
You called Iranians "crazy country" -> Iran is a signatory to NPT, ISRAEL is not. It goes to show that you are racist. YOU have an agenda against Iran. And yes I have an agenda against Israel, it's a genocidal deranged country with naziesque leadership. When Israel stops genociding Palestinians and starts treating all humans as equal, then I will become Israel's greatest supporter.
You call Iran crazy when our shithole government is plotting to illegally deport a congresswoman and weaponising federal law to go after his opponents.
Anyone who believes America has any moral high ground over Russia, china is absolutely deluded.
play your theory out. China is actively committing genocide on their own turf. Russia is kidnapping Ukraine children and turning them against their parents. DPRK commits mass murder of its own. Dont be deluded stop whataboutism
> You can push an advantage, but the whole "no world order" issue will result in severe repercussions if you start to mess with the wrong people. This is not unique to America.
You don't have to tell me. America and Americans are feeling the effects of no world order in our diesel prices. For the record, I am in favor of having a world order with international law that is enforced and applied to all countries *equally*.
> Oh please.
Great argument. /s
> Iran playing nice? Are you serious? You know that it's possible to criticize America while not backing a government that has killed at least 40K of its own citizens _this year_. Acting like Iran and its government are somehow passive in global conflicts is insane.
Get off your moral high horse. I am an American, my issue is with the AMERICAN government. I am not condoning what Iran does or did to its people. What they did is their business. Does not justify what we did to them and have been doing to them for ages.
Why is Iran not allowed to have nuclear capability when Israel is allowed? Why is our president a pedophile? Why does our government protect other pedophiles? Why is corruption legal in America? Why do we pay for the genocide in Gaza? Why do we support the deranged Israeli state militarily and financially?
> Acting like Iran and its government are somehow passive in global conflicts is insane.
Our government is bought and paid for by foreign entities like AIPAC and corporations the people be damned. Do you think this gives China/Russia just cause to bomb America?
America is the most belligerent nation in the world, all you have to do is take your head out of the sand and count the number of wars America has been in in the last 50 years.
> According to Kerry, Netanyahu had presented presidents George W. Bush, Barack Obama, and Joe Biden with plans to attack Iran, all of whom refused, before he received an affirmative response from current US President Donald Trump.
I seriously doubt anything but political calculus about midterms and the sinking polling numbers for Republicans along with kickbacks from private military contracts towards certain connected members of the inner-circle went into the decision matrix for starting this war. It was never about whether or not it made sense - Fukuyama's The End of History has long been totally irrelevant, a little cherry on top of the neoliberal promise of global peace.
That book specifically named Donald Trump as the type of figure who could channel thumotic desire into upsetting the neoliberal order back in the early 90s. The title of that book obviously was to generate attention and sales, not a literal statement.
We can leave at any time. The reason we can't at this point is more like what the Chinese concept, "we lose face". So we will drag this another 20 years into future, another 10T gone and China colonized Mars with Asimov-like robots near AGI and we have failing bridges and the bragging rights that our B21/B22/B3000XT devastating those Iranians 2,967 times! My guns bigger than yours, Chinamen!
Fighting with a friend of the US is fighting the US. Aside from the disruption, it'll lead to complaints, and Iran can always say "blame your watchdog for biting first".
Oh, no, it is way too late for that. The strait is closed if we stay, it's closed if we leave, it's just closed forever for everyone that doesn't wanna be attacked or pays the toll to Iran.
This war has shown everyone that it is just too easy to keep a major navigation route closed with drones and mines.
It is more of ego thing now. So "just leaving" isn't an option when ego priotised way higher than people needs. "government of the people, by the people, for the people", we never ask which "people"? They may have the same spelling, but I'm sure absolutely not the same group of people in that sentence.
Iran is committing daily war crimes by firing missiles at civilian ships. The Geneva Convention prohibits the targeting of merchant vessels and civilian crews. The ships are not even entering Iranian territory - they're in UAE/Omani waters and are avoiding Iranian waters the entire time.
I'm sure Iran are merely interdicting and destroying enemies of the Iranian state. This is extremely normal and should not be condemned.[0] Upholding freedom of navigation is for weak states.
/s if it weren't obvious. Yes Iran is horrible, yes this is whataboutery, but they should be held to the same standard.
UKMTO uses deliberately neutral language, but OSINT analysts have reverse-engineered who has actually did the strike based on the phrasing. They use the same phrasing every time, and it's simple to match the wording with verified incidents.
"struck by an unknown/unidentified projectile" -> involved in an Iranian missile/drone attack
"an incident involving a tanker and military forces" or “subject to interaction as part of ongoing military activity” -> US military strike or blockade action
The United States and Israel started this war themselves (during ongoing negotiations, for the third time!), bombed and killed school children (double-tapped). If you mention international rules, try to not be a hypocrite and look at US/Israel first.
The US should pack up and leave. Hell, they should leave the entire region and start focusing on domestic problems. China is building, while the US is in decline (40T in debt with nothing to show for) and tries to play imperialism.
"but whatabout" is cute but how does it relate to a Singapore container ship with 20 crew members being shot at? It's like you're expecting an attack on that ship to undo or counter-balance the attack on the school? I don't get it.
And we murdered hundreds of school children in a double strike (pretty sure your Geneva Convention has something in there about that) AND started this entire mess AND assassinated state officials (again, let's recheck the Geneva Convention) AND could end it instantly if we wanted.
International law is a veneer that only works when the balance of power is tilted strongly towards those who support it.
That was the case for the majority of the post-WW2 order, but is no longer. We're witnessing the birth of a new world order. Likely the new order will have an international law of a sort because it's good for trade, but it won't necessarily be the same as it was.
International law is primarily a set of treaties between sovereigns. The point of being sovereign is that you can unilaterally leave a treaty. There are consequences to doing that for those that are weaker, of course.
War crimes are bad, that goes without saying. And this is probably a bit too much even for Iran. But the only card they have left to play is to keep Hormuz closed to inflicy pain in arab countries and the US, and they are going to play it as hard as they can.
What I mean is that this situation was very predictable and very avoidable by just not going all in in an air campaign with an open ended objective.
Do you think people really assume that anyone of them USA, Iran, Iraq are 'normal' or 'nice' about all of this?
Nonetheless to address what you mentioned regarding the geneva convention: I never got it. There is no good or bad war. It doesn't matter in a war if some solders are raping or killing others or if these solders are getting killed or what type of weapons they use etc. A war is a war and it costs life because of a handful of people in a leadership position.
There is not a single solder who fights just for fun. They might be uneducated and got indoctrinated to fight for the vatercountry. They might need money whatever.
Everyone looses in a war.
And no it was not okay that USA takes the leader of another country just because (see venezuela) just because it went 'well' and 'fast' doesn't make it okay.
Was there any real conflict between countries which got solved properly through diplomacy only ever?
"Whataboutism" is a fake newspeak word that was invented by hawkish foreign policy think tanks to rebutt their own hypocrisy. Despite attempts to retcon it back to the cold war, it mostly didn't exist as a term until the 2010s. And yes, this is posted by a green account. Go kvetch about it.
Blockades are a legitimate tool in warfare. Their status under international law is a bit unclear, as the precedent is mostly about wars with a clear separation between belligerents and neutral parties, which is not that common anymore.
In any case, neutral ships are expected to comply with the blockade. Typically by staying out of the region or by approaching visibly and subjecting themselves to inspection. If they don't stop voluntarily and resist capture, they can be attacked.
Eh, once your country is being bombed indiscriminately, including civilian infrastructure... At that point the Geneva conventions already failed.
You may call this whataboutism, but to be frank, it is not really. Iran is not targeting merchant ships in a vacuum, it is a direct response to actions done against it by the US-Israel axis.
> Seeing a lot of whataboutism in the replies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism . Whataboutism is the classic strategy that Soviet propagandists used to distract and avoid accountability.
This kind of a 2nd order whataobutism: "What about when the Soviets engaged in whataboutism? Do we want to be like them?"
> It doesn't answer or invalidate the point at hand.
If the point is that they're committing war crimes, you're not wrong.
If the point is to hyperfocus on one thing and ignore the wider picture and context, you're also not wrong.
The US is accused of committing war crimes in the past for much smaller reasons than the Iranians have. If a country attacked the Pentagon, White House, and Congress, and killed the president, much of his cabinet, and many members of Congress, and is continuing to face such attacks, I assure you they will commit war crimes, and their citizens will be fully in support.
Everything here is in the overarching context that the US started the war. If they hadn't, all that's happening wouldn't have, ergo they're responsible for all that's happening. Don't bully someone and not expect them to retaliate in some way, if it's even to kick the bully's dog or something if they can't get back at the bully directly.
It's not whataboutism when you point out the hypocrisy in US foreign policy and actions. Even the Soviet example of missiles in Cuba which happened because US put missiles in Turkey, then US claiming that their missiles are "defensive" while Soviets are "aggressive". Ludicrous hypocrisy of the US continues to go on.
There are at least three political conspiracy/flamewar stories on the front page right now. The sources are getting more and more sketchy too. It's getting really tiring.
they did make use of AI to improve the GNC for one of their attacks on the saudis but I guess technically that's the houthis (if that distinction matters). from my understanding the sophistication of the attacks isn't the issue, its the geography and magazine depth of the iranians.
This is just the beginning. Soon an island will surface at the wreck site and COBRA will issue forth to dominate & spread terror. But fear not, a multi-service task force will emerge to combat COBRA, this task force will be named -- GI Joe!
[Yes, I know COBRA island was located in the Gulf of America/Mexico, this was just too apt to pass (and probably a more likely genesis scenario than Amway sales)].
75 comments
[ 5.5 ms ] story [ 62.4 ms ] threadIt was incredibly stupid to start this war, but we're now fairly well stuck.
Highly recommend if you like tech AND want some WW II forward context on Iran.
That's perfectly fine. Let freedom of navigation end. The United States uses its natural resources to wreak havoc on the world, why shouldn't countries gifted with Geography not push their advantage? Particularly when there is no world order and US bombs anyone it wishes whenever it wants? Why should Iran play nice when all it got in return is US aggression? Why should any State adhere to international law when the law is only applied when it's beneficial to the world powers?
You can push an advantage, but the whole "no world order" issue will result in severe repercussions if you start to mess with the wrong people. This is not unique to America.
> US bombs anyone it wishes whenever it wants?
Oh please.
> Why should Iran play nice when all it got in return is US aggression?
Iran playing nice? Are you serious? You know that it's possible to criticize America while not backing a government that has killed at least 40K of its own citizens _this year_. Acting like Iran and its government are somehow passive in global conflicts is insane.
I mean, between bombing fishermen, Iran during negotiations (twice), kidnapping president, threatening Greenland, supporting far right worldwide, supporting Putin, supporting genocide in Gaza a lot more then any other country, supporting far right where possible ...
The fact is, Iran was not attacking Hormuz. Iran was abiding international agreeemets which USA broken. Iran is not nice country, but they had policy of strategic restraint and did not even responded to first negotiation bombing.
The biggest threat to global stability right now is USA. Because the country is violent, crazy and still have a lot of power.
How ironic you call me immature for calling you racist but you do the same. Really goes to show the extent of your thinking process. One set of rules for me, another set for thee.
> Iran is far from innocent and did respond to the 2025 attacks by launching missiles so not sure why you’re claiming otherwise. Iran has been lying about nuclear ambition for decades and funding terrorist groups. Do you want another crazy country to have a nuclear weapon? Russia and DPRK already threatening everyone with nuclear
You called Iranians "crazy country" -> Iran is a signatory to NPT, ISRAEL is not. It goes to show that you are racist. YOU have an agenda against Iran. And yes I have an agenda against Israel, it's a genocidal deranged country with naziesque leadership. When Israel stops genociding Palestinians and starts treating all humans as equal, then I will become Israel's greatest supporter.
Anyone who believes America has any moral high ground over Russia, china is absolutely deluded.
You don't have to tell me. America and Americans are feeling the effects of no world order in our diesel prices. For the record, I am in favor of having a world order with international law that is enforced and applied to all countries *equally*.
> Oh please.
Great argument. /s
> Iran playing nice? Are you serious? You know that it's possible to criticize America while not backing a government that has killed at least 40K of its own citizens _this year_. Acting like Iran and its government are somehow passive in global conflicts is insane.
Get off your moral high horse. I am an American, my issue is with the AMERICAN government. I am not condoning what Iran does or did to its people. What they did is their business. Does not justify what we did to them and have been doing to them for ages.
Why is Iran not allowed to have nuclear capability when Israel is allowed? Why is our president a pedophile? Why does our government protect other pedophiles? Why is corruption legal in America? Why do we pay for the genocide in Gaza? Why do we support the deranged Israeli state militarily and financially?
> Acting like Iran and its government are somehow passive in global conflicts is insane.
Our government is bought and paid for by foreign entities like AIPAC and corporations the people be damned. Do you think this gives China/Russia just cause to bomb America?
America is the most belligerent nation in the world, all you have to do is take your head out of the sand and count the number of wars America has been in in the last 50 years.
This number is made up propaganda, stop referencing it as a fact.
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-news/article-892647
This war has shown everyone that it is just too easy to keep a major navigation route closed with drones and mines.
Interesting, you think it was the US Navy who shot at the container ship?
Every crook under the sun does that. And I think it's well established by now that the US administration is a criminal gang.
/s if it weren't obvious. Yes Iran is horrible, yes this is whataboutery, but they should be held to the same standard.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_strikes_on_alleg...
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_United_States_naval_block... ("Ships sunk by the United States")
UKMTO uses deliberately neutral language, but OSINT analysts have reverse-engineered who has actually did the strike based on the phrasing. They use the same phrasing every time, and it's simple to match the wording with verified incidents.
"struck by an unknown/unidentified projectile" -> involved in an Iranian missile/drone attack
"an incident involving a tanker and military forces" or “subject to interaction as part of ongoing military activity” -> US military strike or blockade action
That was their choice.
At the beginning of the war, USA has boasted about sinking a large number of Iranian ships, including unarmed ships with a much bigger crew.
There is no doubt that Iran has sunk far less ships than USA in this war and with many times less human casualties.
Bot / propaganda account. Do not engage.
That was the case for the majority of the post-WW2 order, but is no longer. We're witnessing the birth of a new world order. Likely the new order will have an international law of a sort because it's good for trade, but it won't necessarily be the same as it was.
Underneath it all, only power decides.
What I mean is that this situation was very predictable and very avoidable by just not going all in in an air campaign with an open ended objective.
Do you think people really assume that anyone of them USA, Iran, Iraq are 'normal' or 'nice' about all of this?
Nonetheless to address what you mentioned regarding the geneva convention: I never got it. There is no good or bad war. It doesn't matter in a war if some solders are raping or killing others or if these solders are getting killed or what type of weapons they use etc. A war is a war and it costs life because of a handful of people in a leadership position.
There is not a single solder who fights just for fun. They might be uneducated and got indoctrinated to fight for the vatercountry. They might need money whatever.
Everyone looses in a war.
And no it was not okay that USA takes the leader of another country just because (see venezuela) just because it went 'well' and 'fast' doesn't make it okay.
Was there any real conflict between countries which got solved properly through diplomacy only ever?
In any case, neutral ships are expected to comply with the blockade. Typically by staying out of the region or by approaching visibly and subjecting themselves to inspection. If they don't stop voluntarily and resist capture, they can be attacked.
You may call this whataboutism, but to be frank, it is not really. Iran is not targeting merchant ships in a vacuum, it is a direct response to actions done against it by the US-Israel axis.
This kind of a 2nd order whataobutism: "What about when the Soviets engaged in whataboutism? Do we want to be like them?"
> It doesn't answer or invalidate the point at hand.
If the point is that they're committing war crimes, you're not wrong.
If the point is to hyperfocus on one thing and ignore the wider picture and context, you're also not wrong.
The US is accused of committing war crimes in the past for much smaller reasons than the Iranians have. If a country attacked the Pentagon, White House, and Congress, and killed the president, much of his cabinet, and many members of Congress, and is continuing to face such attacks, I assure you they will commit war crimes, and their citizens will be fully in support.
(I find much better comments here though.)