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Ask HN: Where are all the programming jobs?

65 points by AncoraImparo ↗ HN
I am getting frustrated. I have a really good job at the moment. I am a software engineer for the new york stock exchange. I am seeking something in the USA which would allow me to relocate with a H1B to live and work in America. Finding potential employers isn't so hard. But finding something which actually fits under the topic of programming and not glorified web development is much, much harder. Every time I see a challenge these days as part of a job interview process, I end up having to go off and write something in rails, asp.net or even PHP. Where in the world are all the C / C++ and Java roles that used to be available in America? It has gotten so bad that there are literally thousands of employers moving to Europe to in order to get hold of programmers who develop code for these native languages. There has to still be some employers who wish to hire for these roles IN America, I just can't seem to find them anywhere is all. Does anybody know where I can find such employers?

71 comments

[ 5.7 ms ] story [ 160 ms ] thread
watty
Where are you looking? I find it hard to believe you can't find any non-web programming positions, they're around. A quick search on monster.com shows thousands of them in America.
AncoraImparo
Thanks, I will look there. I had been mainly looking on the Who's hiring posts of HN, but the few native development roles there are don't offer H1B visa support. I had seen a role or two on monster, but none of the employers there are willing to bring in a developer who needs a H1B. Thanks for your input though, it is very much appreciated.
Ralith
> I had been mainly looking on the Who's hiring posts of HN

Well, there's your problem. HN consists mostly of web developers/startups.

frozenport
This feels like nonsense. Some C/C++ jobs I have seen people get in the last year. Notice that these require some low level internals knowledge and posix experience. nvidia google microsoft navtec/nokia cray

Maybe you have too much experience in the other roles, and your pay grade experience level corresponds to glorified web development?

You should apply to Goldman Sachs who are a Java shop. I think the Chicago CME group also does C++. An enumerable number of hedge funds do C++.

AncoraImparo
Payment hasn't came into it for me yet, I am currently unaware of how much money I would be earning in a role in the USA, and it isn't my main focus anyway. Goldan Sachs have a massive recruitment drive on at the minute, but because of my location they wont help me move, they only offer recruitment to their London buildings. CME are the same, as they are moving a lot of their development to Northern Ireland. Unfortunately. Is there a job market that focuses on C, C++ and java roles, in the USA? I don't even need to focus directly on the finance industry, I would be happy to move to another sector.
frozenport
HPC and big data are exclusive to the USA. IBM, Intel, Cray, NVidia, Amazon, Nokia, Google have those needs. Its actually quite easy to name places.

That being said, showing an interest in Java is an almost immediate disqualification. You need to be able to answer questions such as how to vectorize a loop, structure of a makefile, how to build a cache, what is thunk, pthreads, and sometimes you may need to be aware of BLAS. During an interview I was asked 'who mom likes'. Off-course my mom likes me!

apaprocki
Bloomberg is mostly a C/C++ shop (terminal side, not web) and we both hire H1s and relocate. My address is in my profile if you want to talk.
dahumpty
Most systems companies (e.g., networking, storage) do development in C/C++/Java. Have you checked 'em out?
mgkimsal
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=java

Even many of these will have a web component to it, because... there's a lot of business processes moving to the web as a delivery mechanism.

Funny you consider Java as a 'native' language. To the extent some of those jobs may be being done outside of the US, it might be for economic reasons - senior level C developers may be too expensive in the US to have lots of them. I suspect, however, it's more a case of not having enough for them to do relative to software higher up the stack.

You're living in a bubble working at the NYSE; few employers have needs that are time-sensitive enough to be measured in microseconds, nor do most employers have billions of dollars being exchanged every second.

AncoraImparo
I don't actually consider Java as native, apologies, I kind of just fired that out there as it is a technology I am also familiar with.

I'm not really in a bubble, I don't really need to focus on low latency development in my next role, I just happen to be in that role at the minute.

Thanks for the link, I will check that out now.

mgkimsal
The need for assembler and C are most prevalent in areas where speed is needed - you're in that bubble. The vast majority of business needs out there really don't have a requirement for C. The parts where C may be necessary are largely covered by kernels/drivers, Apache, MySQL, Ruby, PHP, Python, etc already, and most businesses derive more value from having people deliver value using those tools. Rails, Django and PHP/MySQL are the MS Excel and Access of this decade (and probably last decade too), and a lot of value was created by Access/Excel in the 90s (and a lot of messes too, but that's a different story).

You're 'not in a bubble' the same way that 90% of the startup scene living in SF is 'not in a bubble' either :)

oscargrouch
Probably this also have to do with the quality of the enginner.. im sure companies have a hard time trying to hire C/C++ class of enginners (and java at some extent).

Im sure nature+culture+education also have a hard time to produce this sort of profile.. so the market have to fit, to get its work done (spending more in hardware to compensate maybe?)..

But as a contradictory example, see facebook.. started with the easy (and spaguetti) PHP.. and now that things get really complicated.. they have to turn out to C++

You dont see this sort of infrastructure problem on google, that has started with c++ right away..

And also twitter, started with ruby, and ended on Scala (im sure it cost a lot to buy the ammount of memory JVM requires, but is pretty fast)

But of course, the majority of jobs come from mid to small sized shops.. (and startups) that like their precedents before them.. are starting the easy and productive way.. with things like node.js .. nothing against that , but if they get really big as the examples i´ve gave, they will start to feel the heat :)

fatalerrorx3
Facebook does use PHP still don't they just pre-compile it to make it run faster? I'm sure they also use C/C++ in addition now though for certain resource intensive processes like image and video processing
kator
> You're living in a bubble working at the NYSE; few employers have needs that are time-sensitive enough to be measured in microseconds, nor do most employers have billions of dollars being exchanged every second.

Not true, I can think of several areas where latency and performance matter:

1) Graphics firmware 2) Audio/Video Real-Time transcoding, transformation etc. 3) Mobile 4) Wireless/Networking Gear etc.

I've personally written systems that have to respond in 10ms to 3.5 Billion queries with 45k qps spikes.. They're are lots of places performance matters.

mgkimsal
relative to the large expanse of employers who don't have those needs? that's still a small base. I didn't say those jobs didn't exist.
huhtenberg
+1 for networking firmware - like the one that goes into routers, firewalls, load-balancers and some such. So I'd try places like Juniper, Cisco, Redback, etc.
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duiker101
I know you are looking in the USA but i'd like just to point out that in Cambridge UK there are many many ,well paid, programming jobs, because it seems there is quite a lack of programmers but there are many companies!
alecco
Cambridge is an amazing place to live and it's full of interesting people. But salaries are quite low there.
kator
Not sure how to answer this without saying "contact me".

Let me try hard to add something of value while also saying "contact me, my customers are hiring high-scale, low-latency, C coders by the dozens". :)

I started coding in C 30 years ago when we had machines with 768k of memory and processors that have less power then the cpu in the elevator in my building.

I have a theory that as cpu power, ram and other resources have scaled to amazing levels more and more problems can be solved with higher level languages without the need to eek every single cpu cycle or byte of ram out.

  "We should forget about small efficiencies, say about 97% of the time;
   premature optimization is the root of all evil"
            -- Donald E. Knuth
I think it's perfectly fine to approach many problems with PHP, ASP.NET, Python or any number of solutions as long as the problem is solved in a way that meets the requirements. Not every problem needs to handle millions of queries per second at the lowest latency and best cost possible. The speed from "problem" to "solution" can be many times faster offsetting the potential cost of running a couple extra servers to soak up the inefficiencies of the system.

That said in my field of work we see 40 Billion transactions daily with Million query per second spikes. In that world you can't afford to deploy 10,000 servers running a nice django server. You need to dive deeper and deeper, ending up with front-line servers written in C and optimizing with non-locking data structures and sweating over memory fences and cache lines. This however is a rare slice of the total problem set that programmers have to face every day.

IMHO it's the power curve of cpu power and resource availability that creates a wider and wider gap between low level, low latency, high scale programmers and many programmers who "get stuff done" perfectly fine every day of the week.

I have posted before on HN about the strange patterns that are emerging around the shift to "post-desktop" era, and this trend is also another topic of interest to me. I have to wonder as Moore's law levels out who will be contributing to solutions solved with 1,000's of cores on a chip and all the problems associated with adapting problems to massively parallel architectures.

I guess my answer is: Look harder, there are lots of low-level, high-scale jobs out there.

AncoraImparo
This is very much how I look at the industry, its just that everyone I seem to talk to at the minute is only interested in rails!! C coders, by the dozens? Is there any chance you can put me in contact with a few people? It would be much appreciated. If you like, I can send you my email address, and we can even talk a while so you know I am not just some kid who wants a better deal.
kator
My linked in info is in my profile.

I'm in New York.

And my clients are Start-ups.

:-)

EDIT: And I AM NOT A RECRUITER.. :-)

AncoraImparo
Thanks! I added you on linked in.

I look forward to hearing from you.

mjmahone17
Just a note: you're the one looking for a job. Shouldn't you at least, in addition to adding on linked in, send kator a message explaining your background and that you are AncoraImparo from HN? I don't know about kator, but I typically have 5-6 people who I have requested to be added at any one time, so without an additional message it might be hard to remember you.
kator
yes please don't randomly link me with 'I'd like to add you to my network.' If I don't recognize you it'll never happen.

I prefer a message, if we get to know each other and find value in our connection I will link you later. :)

I get recruiters who will blind link me and I always respond back without linking them until I know who they are and if I want them in "my" network.

I try harder in Linked In to keep a good network not like facebook where random people I barely know are friends with me.. :-)

TheMakeA
Unfortunately LinkedIn makes it hard to send you a message that isn't attached to a connection request. They have InMail, but it's a premium feature.
kator
OK then add something to the link request.. Just make it clear you're not spamming and who you are.. :)
tluyben2
Offtopic: 768k 30 years ago? You must've worked in a rich place :) Trying to get an accountancy app in 128kb and that wasn't happening in C either.

Ontopic: programmers (good ones especially) are scarce they say and yet the market seems overcrowded. I'm not looking but have plenty of friends who are (not on location though, but they are very reliable, high quality and work hard) and they are having a very hard time here in the EU.

kator
TRS-80 Model 16 with Xenix.

You could get upgrades to get them to 768k.

http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/html/catalogs_extra/1984_r...

tluyben2
Nice! No-one I knew then had the cash for that then :) I have one of those here now but not with the 768k extension.
kator
Funny but true I have a Model 16b but the foam on the keyboard keys failed so I can't use the console anymore.. :(

I was so sad when I found this out.. I could boot the machine but could not login to the console. It sat there waiting for me to type Control-D to go to multi-user mode.. And tears sort of welled up in my eyes as I hit the power button..

I love the days we live in, they seem like a dream from the days when I started in computers. But once in a while I wish I could visit those earlier days.

Sort of like a High School jock who's a security guard now and wants to revisit his High School "Glory Days".

Except I am still in my "Glory Days" and enjoying every minute of it.. :)

But I still often long for those simpler days when thinking about how many k Bytes I would allocate to solve a problem would cause swapping on the machine and how to avoid it.. ;-)

But technology like life progresses on and we must adapt or die.. Me I choose to adapt.. while thinking fondly sometimes about the simpler times.. ;-)

tluyben2
I just do both; I create web and mobile apps for my clients, games for my clients and myself (the infinite cpu/memory kind; i'm not yet good enough to pull everything from the metal on current computers) and, in my spare time, I work with old hardware and software. Soldering and programming on 80ties computers is relaxing and fulfilling just as I find modern tech to be.
greenyoda
AST Research used to manufacture memory expansion boards for the original IBM PCs that gave you up to 768K (128K of which was discontiguous, since ROM began at 640K).

The C compilers for the PC back then had different memory models (small, large, huge, etc.) that would make tradeoffs between code size and the size of the address space you could use.

asher
If you want a funded startup, you could start here:

http://www.kpcb.com/careers

If you want a big company, Google and Yahoo use a lot of C++ and Java.

My last two groups at Yahoo, before leaving for a startup, were C++ and Java.

Good luck in your quest!

mbreckon
I can't comment for the US as I'm based in the UK but I have been thinking about this problem from a recruitment point of view as I muse on long term directions for the company I work for.

I work developing applications in the engineering and CAD/CAM space for which we need engineers who understand vector maths and 3D geometry, memory/processing tradeoffs, multi-threading, C++ (for low-level and cross-platform components) and most importantly the ability to think in terms of systems and complex interactions between sub-systems.

I don't see this changing, yet the number of developers on the market in these sorts of roles is decreasing (especially at entry level) and the cost of employing those remaining seems to be increasing significantly.

r4vik
seems like you should be targeting burnt out games developers
mbreckon
We do have one working for us and this has worked out well. I think you might have a point in your use of the word "targeting" - it raises possibilities of advertising and targetted promotion outside of the normal channels.
r4vik
Should be easy to test this with a small linked in ad campaign targeting people in games industry groups or working for EA. Other people you should look at are those working in film/sfx they are notoriously badly paid and fit your bill.
zeck
Is the entry level problem one of supply or demand?
borlak
I assume you'd be interested in startups if you've come to hacker news, so my simple answer would be "San Francisco."

I don't know why you don't consider web development a 'programming' job. My favorite language is C and I develop in it for my own projects, but I've had just as much challenging work in designing PHP applications.

I've interviewed at several startups that had very difficult and interesting challenges -- and working in Java, Hadoop, etc. So I either don't understand what your real problem is, or you aren't looking hard enough.

Also you might consider mobile development, as Java/C++ can still be quite heavy there -- although, things seem to be moving towards multi-platform frameworks such as Adobe Air / Corona / PhoneGap etc.

evincarofautumn
“I don’t know why you don’t consider web development a ‘programming’ job. My favorite language is C and I develop in it for my own projects, but I’ve had just as much challenging work in designing PHP applications.”

Not to put words in the OP’s mouth, but I for one find that web development usually involves software engineering challenges more than programming ones. By that I mean that you don’t necessarily get to solve interesting technical problems, though there are certainly plenty of architectural and process problems to solve.

Some people, myself included, feel much more engaged when there’s something hard to figure out, rather than when there’s just a lot of effort to be put in. It all depends on what you like to do and what feels legitimate to you.

craftman
I suggest you to move to Erlang. This is the best platform to create great systems (including web, but not only) and allowing skilled professional programmers to express their full potential.
redwood
There are probably some on offer in Silicon Valley :) Probably many in fact. Are you in NYC now? or not in the US yet?
wglb
I would suggest Chicago. I have always felt that, from a jobs-available point of view, Chicago is broader and deeper than most places in the country, including New York. Technology jobs run the range of high-frequency trading jobs where C isn't always fast enough to insurance giants like Allstate, who when I last checked, had about 1000 IT-related jobs, a very large chunk of them in programming. Financial modeling, data warehouses. Lots of Java, .net, some C, some C++, Ruby, Rails.

While the startup scene in Chicago is not quite what it is on the west coast, there is some of that in place. Lots of former startups like 37signals, Groupon, kCura. And don't forget my buddies over at matasano for top technological challenges.

chrisduesing
Agreed. Not only are CME/CBOT Java shops, but we have hundreds of fortune 500 companies with all sorts of internal tools, infrastructure and messaging projects that are anything but light and fluffy. There are trading firms, telco, retail, banking etc. Don't forget Orbitz, Chase, Motorola.

As for the startup scene, I agree it is not the west coast, however you are selling Chicago short. We have 1871, Lightbank, Sandbox, Excelerate, etc.

greggman
http://google.com/jobs

We're always hiring. The Chrome team does lots of C++. The Android team does lots of Java. I believe the docs backend and the g+ backend are mostly Java though I've never seen them. I'm sure other teams use Java and C++ as well.

They have offices in NYC. No need to relocate ;-)

For tips see http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/03/get-that-job-at-goog...

evincarofautumn
Perhaps you can shed some light on this. In the relatively small sample size I have[0], Google seemed very dismissive of college students (which I was) and those recently out of college (which I am). Is it that the hiring process is designed to weed out the overmany ambitious students and recent grads who apply?

I am employed now, but still slightly miffed.

[0] About a dozen technical and non-technical phone interviews all told, between Google, YouTube, and a couple of Google Ventures companies.

ceras
I work at Google, but don't speak for them whatsoever etc. etc. Anyway, I'm a recent grad, with many recent grad friends working here. I do not think they are dismissive of college students at all, and I highly encourage college students and recent grads to apply.
AncoraImparo
Hey, thanks for the info. I currently work for NYSE, in Ireland, do google offer H1B sponsorship?
andymoe
I'm pretty sure my employer does not just do "glorified web development" though I'd suggest you lose the attitude when you get here. The glorified web programmers have us surrounded and there are plenty of good ones ;-)

http://jobs.vmware.com/go/engineering-jobs/210703/

kjackson2012
There might be Java positions in various groups, but VMware is having a hard time retaining their top engineers after their IPO options completely vested. Most of my current and former colleagues that worked at VMware say that all the hardcore C/C++ programming jobs in the core virtualization app (ESX server) are dead, they sit around not doing anything challenging anymore, and that the C++ jobs you'll find working on the Virtual Center app are boring.
phpnode
kjackson2012 your account is dead - you've accidentally triggered a spam filter
Symbol
Lots of game development shops use C/C++ as that's the prima lingua for today's consoles, and is native to iOS/Android as well. The games space is rapidly shifting, so there's interesting stuff emerging from the chaos. If you are willing to come to Boston, I'm happy to talk more about opportunities.
niggler
"Where in the world are all the C / C++ and Java roles that used to be available in America?"

You are probably looking in the wrong places. There are plenty of C++/C/x86 jobs both in new york and elsewhere. A few places to look are in quantitative finance (especially low latency trading), gaming (companies like id software are pushing the line), hardware (nvidia etc hire lots of low level programmers) and engineering (there are still fortran jobs available)

also: you should put your email in your profile ...

Rimpinths
BATS Exchange in Kansas City is hiring C++ programmers. Needless to say, your background would be ideal.

http://bats.com/about/careers/

clebio
Hi Rimpinths, not to hi-jack Ancora's thread, but I'm in KC and would be interested to talk, if you have some time.
joshbuddy
At Leap Motion we're doing some pretty bad ass C++. If you're serious, and see any good fits, feel free to email me back. jhull is the name part of my email address :)
jfisk87
agreed with the rest, tons of these jobs are in SF. Mobile development is also huge and salary on the rise if thats your thing.
redthrowaway
The sexy, talked about jobs are all in web and mobile development. If you want "real programming" jobs, look to the old, staid companies that make B2B software. I interned at Ericsson and the vast majority of development was done in C, C++, and Java. They wrote control software for network devices, and it was really interesting stuff to work on. You might find that in the infrastructure divisions of Google or Amazon, but it's almost all you'll find at companies like Ericsson.
keefe
java is still the biggest demand out there

just note that sponsoring an H1B is a complicated and at least reasonably costly and ask yourself, who is going to be willing to do that? Probably a more established company vs a startup, so checkout crunchbase for Series C funding and checkout the large software companies based in silicon valley.

otherwise just do the normal stuff check SF craigslist to start, dice.com and find speciality boards in your areas of interest (e.g. kdnuggets board for ML)

huhtenberg
> It has gotten so bad that there are literally thousands of employers moving to Europe to in order to get hold of programmers who develop code for these native languages.

Care to elaborate? How did you arrive to this conclusion?

AncoraImparo
I live in Europe, I see it every, single, day.
huhtenberg
Can I ask which country? I'm too here and I am not seeing this at all.

(edit) Also, I would guess that you are partial to the outsourced development domain. That would explain why you see things that way.

AncoraImparo
Not outsourced at all, I live in Ireland. Many American companies are here now. My current employer does all development here.
profchaos
I actually just left the stock exchange myself. And as mgkimsal mentioned, "You're living in a bubble working at the NYSE." Work outside can be much more diverse, even if it is just web programming. Depending on what you were actually working on there (though lets be honest, its all pretty bad at NYSE), I imagine you're focused on one tool or app that is running off legacy code and magic.

That said, if you're interested in staying in the financial industry, I'd suggest looking here, particularly if your interested in trading algorithms: http://jobs.efinancialcareers.com The finance industry has demand for Java and C, and I imagine that they would be more able to support your visa status, although I haven't had experience with that myself. As soon as I posted my resume here, I started getting calls. They will love the fact that you're resume says NYSE on it, even if you didn't go anywhere near trading code.