When your entire intellectual model is based on famous quotes, you eventually run out of ideas.
But besides, it’s not about a unique economic malaise. The USA has plenty of affordability problems too. The French, and in particular their students, are just very good at direct political action.
Funny how this applies to the US government, its spending, and treasuries. An entire economy that lit $40T of other people’s money on fire for nothing. At least the handout is coming to an end.
What other person? The US pays its debts. Or rather it's we young Americans who will be paying our grandparents' debts. But, you know. Nana was worth it.
It pays the interest on the debt so far, hasn’t paid the debt back, and might not. The debt was for frivolous wars and tax cuts for the wealthy, not Nana.
The problem is much more complex. Yeah, France with it's generous holidays, substantial pensions combined with a young retirement age has allowed their boomer population to live above its means. However, this is true for most of the western world.
The other problem is that the era of cheap money has come to an end, and France, like many countries, hoped that they could kick the can down the road a little bit longer so that, by then, the boomers would be dead. Without the biggest cohort (which is the one that votes the most) you could do reforms to lower lavish pensions, make them pay a bit more for healthcare, ... .
So now, with an oil shock that is slowly spreading to other facets of the economy France is fucked because it can't lower taxes to give their population more breathing room because of the above mentioned problems. Italy for instance, has now a lower yearly deficit than France and can borrow at considerably cheaper rates and It used this freedom to lower taxes on fuel since Hormuz closed.
Plenty of younger french people intend to keep the relatively low retirement age long after the post war generation has passed on. Politicians far from the centre in either direction are of similar views on this.
It seems unfair to ask people to retire at 68 when the previous generation could retire 6–8 years earlier and with quite generous pensions by comparison, all while owning a house and with relatively cheap health insurance.
To ask people to keep sacrificing what little positives the market could afford, all while privatising services and continuing to not tax some sectors properly… well, you’re asking for riots.
Yeah but those benefits are what put the country in staggering debt? Like I don't think the politicians are proposing austerity because they thought it would be popular.
Lots of people seem to think that social security is paid for with some kind of special loans that governments get. What? Social benefits are paid for by other contributions into the system.
France has plenty of reasons to be in debt, and they’re well documented. We love to think that Europe’s issue is that we have good social protections, which is a lovely message those in power think you should believe in.
Plenty of European governments have similar (or even more generous) policies but somehow manage to do okay. In fact, the holiday and parental leave policies of France are nothing to write home about.
Now, a 150 billion euro ‘handout’ to businesses, _that_ might explain why France can’t pay their debts.
Looking at averages or outliers, France does look better. But their retirement age goes up to 67, as it’s highly dependent on contribution years and plenty of people in France got by with an early entry to the labor market in the past century (different types of labor might explain it).
Looking at the medians or normal ranges, France is not special.
I agree that we should vote with our wallet, but protesting high cost of living (as opposed to taxes, or some specific policy) seems pretty stupid to me. Down with reality!
In the case of US protesting the increase in costs of living makes total sense: the goal is Dems to take over Congress and use the congressional powers to do whatever it takes to open the Strait of Hormuz (including making reparation payments to Iran and allowing Iran to toll ships going through the Strait).
No, and what it is about is the lack of free markets/capitalism in the localized monopoly that is the airport. You can't really pop up a competitor to the Charles De Gaulle Airport across the street with 50% cheaper bags of chips to lure the customers, hence the airport authority gouges the consumer. And ironically, the rioters in France are asking for price controls on staple items (like bags of chips, I guess that's a staple or why are we discussing it?), which would make the general market for chips less free and ultimately make the problem worse because no one is going to deliver wheat or whatever for less than market value or the price it takes to produce it. So supply will become even more constrained and there simply won't be enough staples for everyone and rationing will ensue. Or, the government has to subsidize the staples, meaning they have less money for schools and everything else.
So clearly, riots are not really about economic issues, they're more about vibes.
You can still get a smaller apartment and lower your bills by using less energy. You don't have to build a nuclear plant to be more mindful of the electricity you use
Of course. It would help if we were building small, efficient apartments, instead of all the luxury condos that we allow non-residents to but for investment. And then there’s the issue that poorer families can’t really invest in energy-efficient equipment. And then there’s you thinking that only the rich deserve to use lots of energy, as opposed to a balanced, regulated energy market making power cheap for everyone.
Well, food you don't buy $10 bags of chips. Utilities you use as little as possible, transport you buy a used car instead of going to debt and paying $1000/mo. for a brand new SUV.
I'm just saying, if people keep buying, why would companies lower prices..? They're there to make money and prices are based on offer and demand.
This is not only about the rising cost of living. The protests are lead by high school and university students demanding better school infrastructure, more teachers and shorter days (French high-schoolers regularly spend 10 hours per day at school, 4.5 days per week).
Not true, this is the appearance they give themselves but it is mostly the extreme left side, kind of Communists like, that are trying to create tensions in wake of next year elections in France.
Just so you have a clear image of what is going on, you have pseudo student demonstrating asking for better infrastructure that are burning down their schools. Even brand new support modern schools...
Not true. There aren't 800.000 "kind of Communists like" in France. That is such an obvious lie.
Also: whole schools went to the demonstrations. Pupils and teachers (because they don't like to work in marode buildings either). And we cannot claim that all the pupils and all of the teachers of a school are communist.
But yes, the communist party in France has about 43000 members. But we nation has 66.7 million people. So we shouldn't give this few radicals more influence than they deserve. If anything, the populist right is way more influential and numerous.
Somehow in France the demonstrations have a way higher likelihood to get violent than e.g. in Germany. Just think of the yellow vest demonstrations. Also, the french police is known to be violent, too. Perhaps they don't follow the de-escalation strategies the german police often (not always!) follow? In France, demonstrators lost a hand, teeth, an eye due to police force. That's certainly not as bad as the 9220 people killed by US police in 2024. But for Europe, it's a quite stark expression of government violence.
We must also understand that the majority of journalists are like the Demonstrators from the Harry Potter universe. They life of emotions. Often they artificially create them. I mean, why show a picture of 20000 people just holding up posters --- in a language you won't often be able to read --- if I can show a picture of 4 people torching down a car?
Can you send ~100k of your “kind of Communist” protestors to Belgium? We are probably not angry enough at what the neoliberal, nonsense of a government is doing to social democracy.
Why would they burn Jewish owned businesses in Marseille and leave Muslim owned untouched? It looks like islamists are attacking France and not students.
France spent ~5% of its GDP on education. 5th in the EU in spending.
France is in the top 20% of the world in terms of resources and probably around the middle of the OECD.
When I went to school we had classes of 35 students. Often in the heat with no air conditioning. And we didn't go riot, burn city halls, loot stores etc. We didn't mask up and go throw rocks at the police either.
Whatever is going on in France, thinking about it as "students protesting for better schools" doesn't feel correct at all. You see organized groups of masked protesters attacking the police, looting etc. Are there a lot of people who think they're out there for some supposed good cause? Sure.
It's primarily about social media, just like the
majority of the idiotic protests and riots since Occupy Wall Street.
The incumbent is always a villain, every policy failure is an evil plot, the system is irreparably corrupt, no commonly accepted knowledge is trustworthy, etc.
And we are here as on a darkling plain, swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, where ignorant redditors clash by night.
As usual, the far-left idiots commit arson and plant bombs and then go online to spread their deranged conspiracy theories about this leftist vermin actually being false-flag operatives.
I wonder who could’ve prevented that… Certainly not the middle-class-hating, elitist and corrupt guy that’s been in power for almost a decade.
The rise of the populist movements is a crime and a stupidity in itself, but the established parties being ineffectual for a couple of decades might also explain some protesting.
But no, let’s keep dividing things into arbitrary parts of the political spectrum and not consider the thousands of teachers that are in the mix for the same reasons. That’ll solve everything. It’s not that Macron has been helping his buddies while undoing social protections. No, it’s clearly the far-right’s fault for… you know… not financing education.
I do think the current government is at fault for not finding education. I am not close enough to fully understand French politics, but we are having similar political and budget issues two countries up north. Energy and housing prices are through the roof, education and heath care and social security are under pressure. Politicians can't agree on anything.
What I do find disturbing is the response, the amount of people rioting. If it wasn't the cost of living or the education, it would have been some other topic to riot over.
How do you get so many people in so many places so angry, and quite suddenly?
Even the yellow vest protests didn't cause this much havoc.
There are many places in the world that are much more shotty right now compared to two years ago, but those don't have these massive riots. What is causing this?
Who will benefit the most from an unstable France?
I understand and agree with your concern. Hopefully a good candidate would exist that could inspire the French into a better France.
It is indeed peculiar that the French are so ready to take up to the streets, and I suspect the ghettoisation of some of its populace was a mistake. Protests are a bit everywhere; I’m close to Portugal and Belgium and both are showing signs of distress.
I fear Macron is pulling a David Cameron, “it’s not that bad, let’s leave it to the people”, only to realise that the people were indeed so upset that a Le Pen starts sounding like a good idea (polling at 48%).
Of course the French like protesting more than most others but any country is susceptible to this: if the majority feels like their standard of living is slipping, a lot of them will start to consider proteating and violence.
I'm certain I'm going to be criticized, but President Bukele seemed to solve the situation pretty well in El Salvador. Declare martial law, round up the instigators, the gang bangers, the trouble makers, and now El Salvador has peace and quiet.
But can't do that in France. The right to protest violently seems to be in their DNA: Le droit de manifester — même si cela paralyse la nation ?
"but President Bukele seemed to solve the situation"
It is far from solved. They don't round up all the instigators, but all they don't like. At https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/service/laender/elsalvado... (travel warnings from the german ministry of foreign affairs) Germans with tattoos are advised to cover them. Because the El Salvador police forces will persecute them. They don't need a court or evidence, for them anyone with a tattoo is a criminal.
If that is your definition of "solving", then I don't know.
IMHO such a thing can be a first step of a solution. Social reforms, resocialization etc are mandatory follow up steps to reach a stable, non-violent society.
I’m sorry that democracy in action, after decades of ignoring the people, is so shocking to see. Must be nice, to just round up people you deem trouble makers.
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[ 0.21 ms ] story [ 32.2 ms ] threadBut besides, it’s not about a unique economic malaise. The USA has plenty of affordability problems too. The French, and in particular their students, are just very good at direct political action.
I'd say France functions better than I would have expected for a country so attracted to Leftism and 'direct political action'.
There is more to being a good country than a dynamic economy.
https://www.ustreasuryyieldcurve.com/
"And might not" is not reflected by market expectations. But if you know more than Mr Market you can make a fortune shorting t bonds.
The problem is much more complex. Yeah, France with it's generous holidays, substantial pensions combined with a young retirement age has allowed their boomer population to live above its means. However, this is true for most of the western world.
The other problem is that the era of cheap money has come to an end, and France, like many countries, hoped that they could kick the can down the road a little bit longer so that, by then, the boomers would be dead. Without the biggest cohort (which is the one that votes the most) you could do reforms to lower lavish pensions, make them pay a bit more for healthcare, ... .
So now, with an oil shock that is slowly spreading to other facets of the economy France is fucked because it can't lower taxes to give their population more breathing room because of the above mentioned problems. Italy for instance, has now a lower yearly deficit than France and can borrow at considerably cheaper rates and It used this freedom to lower taxes on fuel since Hormuz closed.
To ask people to keep sacrificing what little positives the market could afford, all while privatising services and continuing to not tax some sectors properly… well, you’re asking for riots.
France has plenty of reasons to be in debt, and they’re well documented. We love to think that Europe’s issue is that we have good social protections, which is a lovely message those in power think you should believe in.
Now, a 150 billion euro ‘handout’ to businesses, _that_ might explain why France can’t pay their debts.
That's much more holidays and ~3 years earlier than any other country I know of
Looking at the medians or normal ranges, France is not special.
https://data.europa.eu/en/publications/datastories/work-acro...
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...
I agree that we should vote with our wallet, but protesting high cost of living (as opposed to taxes, or some specific policy) seems pretty stupid to me. Down with reality!
Hopefully the actual protests are more coherent.
Is as simple as that.
So clearly, riots are not really about economic issues, they're more about vibes.
I'm just saying, if people keep buying, why would companies lower prices..? They're there to make money and prices are based on offer and demand.
Just so you have a clear image of what is going on, you have pseudo student demonstrating asking for better infrastructure that are burning down their schools. Even brand new support modern schools...
Also: whole schools went to the demonstrations. Pupils and teachers (because they don't like to work in marode buildings either). And we cannot claim that all the pupils and all of the teachers of a school are communist.
But yes, the communist party in France has about 43000 members. But we nation has 66.7 million people. So we shouldn't give this few radicals more influence than they deserve. If anything, the populist right is way more influential and numerous.
Somehow in France the demonstrations have a way higher likelihood to get violent than e.g. in Germany. Just think of the yellow vest demonstrations. Also, the french police is known to be violent, too. Perhaps they don't follow the de-escalation strategies the german police often (not always!) follow? In France, demonstrators lost a hand, teeth, an eye due to police force. That's certainly not as bad as the 9220 people killed by US police in 2024. But for Europe, it's a quite stark expression of government violence.
We must also understand that the majority of journalists are like the Demonstrators from the Harry Potter universe. They life of emotions. Often they artificially create them. I mean, why show a picture of 20000 people just holding up posters --- in a language you won't often be able to read --- if I can show a picture of 4 people torching down a car?
The 20th century called, they want their hammer and sickle back.
France is in the top 20% of the world in terms of resources and probably around the middle of the OECD.
When I went to school we had classes of 35 students. Often in the heat with no air conditioning. And we didn't go riot, burn city halls, loot stores etc. We didn't mask up and go throw rocks at the police either.
Whatever is going on in France, thinking about it as "students protesting for better schools" doesn't feel correct at all. You see organized groups of masked protesters attacking the police, looting etc. Are there a lot of people who think they're out there for some supposed good cause? Sure.
The incumbent is always a villain, every policy failure is an evil plot, the system is irreparably corrupt, no commonly accepted knowledge is trustworthy, etc.
And we are here as on a darkling plain, swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, where ignorant redditors clash by night.
I wonder who will benefit from that...
You scum are truly genetically inferior.
The rise of the populist movements is a crime and a stupidity in itself, but the established parties being ineffectual for a couple of decades might also explain some protesting.
But no, let’s keep dividing things into arbitrary parts of the political spectrum and not consider the thousands of teachers that are in the mix for the same reasons. That’ll solve everything. It’s not that Macron has been helping his buddies while undoing social protections. No, it’s clearly the far-right’s fault for… you know… not financing education.
What I do find disturbing is the response, the amount of people rioting. If it wasn't the cost of living or the education, it would have been some other topic to riot over. How do you get so many people in so many places so angry, and quite suddenly? Even the yellow vest protests didn't cause this much havoc.
There are many places in the world that are much more shotty right now compared to two years ago, but those don't have these massive riots. What is causing this?
Who will benefit the most from an unstable France?
It is indeed peculiar that the French are so ready to take up to the streets, and I suspect the ghettoisation of some of its populace was a mistake. Protests are a bit everywhere; I’m close to Portugal and Belgium and both are showing signs of distress.
I fear Macron is pulling a David Cameron, “it’s not that bad, let’s leave it to the people”, only to realise that the people were indeed so upset that a Le Pen starts sounding like a good idea (polling at 48%).
You subhuman deserve the guillotine.
The diverse enrichment that the far-left jihadists enforced for the past decade.
But can't do that in France. The right to protest violently seems to be in their DNA: Le droit de manifester — même si cela paralyse la nation ?
It is far from solved. They don't round up all the instigators, but all they don't like. At https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/service/laender/elsalvado... (travel warnings from the german ministry of foreign affairs) Germans with tattoos are advised to cover them. Because the El Salvador police forces will persecute them. They don't need a court or evidence, for them anyone with a tattoo is a criminal.
If that is your definition of "solving", then I don't know.
IMHO such a thing can be a first step of a solution. Social reforms, resocialization etc are mandatory follow up steps to reach a stable, non-violent society.