> “Due to insufficient velocity,” Proton is not on track to achieve its annual recurring revenue target by the end of the year
I'm a Proton customer and other than some UX improvements I'm not missing any big features. This idea they need more velocity is a failure in management.
Yeah chasing velocity like that is for startups. Proton already has a product, a competent team, and (had) a lot of soft capital in the form of a good trusted name and goodwill.
That's enough momentum to coast on for a very long time, especially since their whole deal is that they're owned by a nonprofit and don't even have shareholders to pressure them into chasing profit.
They really had to nothing and they'd won, the only way to lose in a situation like that is... exactly this. Andy could have probably just sat on his ass for 20 years like Gabe Newell and probably been able to buy a similar yacht at the end of it.
I run my business on Proton and we do miss some things. But they’ve been doing a good job making things happen slowly but surely, and I can be patient.
What I can’t tolerate is if they stop putting security first, which it sounds like they are under Yen’s leadership.
I no longer trust Proton after reading this. Chen seems like he has lost what the entire point of Protonmail was supposed to be, and now wants to become one of the Big Tech companies they were built to be an alternative to. He also seems like a two-faced bully.
Email (and VPN, password manager, etc.) is far too sensitive to go as all-in as they want to do on AI. I've been using Tuta in parallel with Proton, and I will probably migrate over completely soon
You should've stopped trusting them the moment it came out that the CEO was a T---p supporter, or at the very least, someone who plays politics, on Xitter of all platforms.
Like, if they really cared about privacy and security and all that jazz, he shouldn't even be on that shitty platform in the first place, let alone tagging and sharing T---p's posts. That alone tells you the kind of person he is - would you trust a corporation run by that person?
It was only a matter of time their products turned to shit.
Exactly. I mean, my proton accounts being taken over won't be catastrophic for me, but the whole premise of having them is they are secure enough for the case where it would be. This is not the place to jump head-first into the latest fad. I want them to be as slow and deliberate and conservative as possible. Experiment on something else, "secure email" shouldn't be it. I'm not anti-AI zealot in the least, but this clearly shows under-appreciation of the risks and complexities of using AI in engineering.
This looks really bad. I would hate to work at a place with leadership and morale like that.
I guess I don't understand Proton's financial position. Are they not owned by the non-profit Proton Foundation? Why can they not just have slow and steady growth with an emphasis on security and quality?
The foundation has trustees, whose job is to ensure the goals of the foundation are being met, and they hire the CEO. In this case, one of the trustees is the CEO, which is a bit of a conflict of interest.
“Our legally binding purpose is to further the advancement of privacy, freedom, and democracy around the world. … We measure our return on investment not through financial metrics, but through impact.” (proton.me)
Having aimed at emigration to Switzerland once I only made myself sure I don't want to live there. Attracts too many too ambitious types. Anyway, using Swiss services does not mean that you are renting a safe deposit in their bunker.
Not sure why the hell you'd trust Proton in the first place? What they sell is some loose guarantees slapped on a completely insecure protocol with many footguns lying around.
Very funny to compare this with the posts just a few days ago [1] where they announced they were reinterviewing folks to lay then off if they weren't sufficiently on the AI train.
Look. I just want an email provider that pays enough dues to the smtp mafia so my personal correspondence doesn't hit spam or bounce. Why. Why can't just email be straightforward and transactional.
As a Proton customer, this is disappointing to hear that it's like this, because I definitely got the sense that it's a company that would operate differently. It actually sounds (unfortunately) like the culture of a lot of the places I've worked...
On the other hand, I do see the situation their leadership is in, even though they're not handling it in a respectful way. If the company needs to provide competitive services vs. everyone else who is using AI, they're just going to get left behind. And even for security: like if their engineers are skeptical about adopting AI how can they protect their system in a world with Mythos and all other kinds of AI running around attacking them? I imagine their product would attract employees who are more skeptical about AI, which is hard to change . They need to find a balance between keeping with the spirit and principles of their product but not be in denial about the new world we live in.
> If the company needs to provide competitive services vs. everyone else who is using AI, they're just going to get left behind
Why not just build a damn good product that has a steady revenue stream? You don’t have to compete in a race to the bottom. There are other ways.
My email provider is boring. They do email and nothing else. Feature development is glacial but reliable. I doubt they’re rich. I doubt they’re tripling their ARR. But they have a stable business as best as I can tell and seem happy with it.
This whole “the only way to compete is to eat the world” is stupid and only makes things worse.
> And even for security: like if their engineers are skeptical about adopting AI how can they protect their system in a world with Mythos and all other kinds of AI running around attacking them
Rotfl there's even this idea that you need vibecoded crap to resist Mythos? Oh my freaking god.
AI is not the issue here. But when your business is based on security and privacy you better adopt it carefully and deliberately. If you're measuring your teams on how much AI they use, I don't trust that you're putting security front and center. AI can be used to improve security, but you can absolutely do the opposite if you push too hard.
Also, any time anything comes out it gives a clear impression that the leadership are bullies, from the CEO on down. That creates an environment in which people are afraid to speak up, which means issues get overlooked. Which isn't great for security either.
I would have absolutely no problem with a CEO setting a solid, well-founded direction about the use of AI to improve their products while keeping a foundation of security and privacy. But Yen just sounds like a Silicon Valley tokenmaxxing douchebag.
This really undermines trust in Proton, not just from a data privacy perspective, but also simply in terms of security and reliability. If they don't issue a statement proving that this is all just made up, or announcing that they're firing the CEO and restructuring the company, I'll switch to another provider in the long run.
This is happening in so many companies - executives and cult-like technical leadership are still touting lines of code as being indicative of productivity while their engineering teams lose coherence around their products.
Can't imagine the company surviving if Andy is allowed to stay on as CEO. A company like Proton lives and dies by its reputation, trust, and goodwill. Given their mission and brand, this is spectacularly tone deaf and jeopardizes everything they've spent over a decade building up.
Only thing that might save their face is kicking Andy and following up with Japanese levels of corporate apologizing.
> A company like Proton lives and dies by its reputation, trust, and goodwill.
This is essentially what I wrote in the "reason for leaving" comment box when I cancelled my annual subscription. I'm sure many others have/will as well; I'm less sure Proton will course-correct before it's too late.
Dude, all I want is a private and secure email provider. That’s it. That’s what I pay for.
Everything else - and I mean everything else - is ancillary to that core function. Seeing a CEO openly throw security out the window in favor of Big Tech’s latest drug addiction is bad enough, but the CEO of a company whose entire reputation is bucking Big Tech? Inexcusable.
Already looking for exit strategies. I don’t want to give this prick one red cent of my money.
Leaving Proton has been in the back of my mind for a while, and this is probably the last straw for me. I've previously heard that Fastmail is good, but I'm interested in what others are doing. I agree with you that email privacy and security are top of the list. I don't care about a private AI feature (eg, Proton's Lumo), and I don't need their productivity suite (docs, sheets, meetings). Just do one thing really well.
Looking for others' input on the right way to offboard from Proton.
I have my own domain, so offboarding from Proton was pretty easy, just exported all my mail and then setup the new mail provider with my email and imported them all.
There are a number of email providers I looked at when switching. Ended up going with mailbox as I was more confident about privacy of a company in Germany than Australia and they were a bit cheaper. Posteo seems like a good option if you don't have your own domain. I also looked at Tuta, but their lack of import killed them as an option, I'm not signing up for a higher subscription level to get that feature.
"Yen was not happy that Proton was drawing attention to this limitation."
This has always been the case. Lack of transparency and dishonest, overzealous marketing.
I use Fastmail because they are at least honest about their limitations and Proton is completely overhyped in terms of the genuine privacy and security of their products. Good to know that beyond being mediocre they've confirmed it's all increasingly AI slop: "Ninety percent of code at Proton in October was written by AI"
Never trusted this company because of Andy, and never will.
53 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 24.5 ms ] threadI'm a Proton customer and other than some UX improvements I'm not missing any big features. This idea they need more velocity is a failure in management.
That's enough momentum to coast on for a very long time, especially since their whole deal is that they're owned by a nonprofit and don't even have shareholders to pressure them into chasing profit.
They really had to nothing and they'd won, the only way to lose in a situation like that is... exactly this. Andy could have probably just sat on his ass for 20 years like Gabe Newell and probably been able to buy a similar yacht at the end of it.
"had" is the right word.
What I can’t tolerate is if they stop putting security first, which it sounds like they are under Yen’s leadership.
Email (and VPN, password manager, etc.) is far too sensitive to go as all-in as they want to do on AI. I've been using Tuta in parallel with Proton, and I will probably migrate over completely soon
What do people recommend as truly good alternatives? Particularly non-American ones due to Snowden's revelations etc. etc.
1: https://www.privacyguides.org/en/email/#recommended-provider...
You should've stopped trusting them the moment it came out that the CEO was a T---p supporter, or at the very least, someone who plays politics, on Xitter of all platforms. Like, if they really cared about privacy and security and all that jazz, he shouldn't even be on that shitty platform in the first place, let alone tagging and sharing T---p's posts. That alone tells you the kind of person he is - would you trust a corporation run by that person?
It was only a matter of time their products turned to shit.
What more is there to say?
You just can't trust software being developed under such a man's leadership to be secure. It's a fatal mark against their raison d'etre.
I guess I don't understand Proton's financial position. Are they not owned by the non-profit Proton Foundation? Why can they not just have slow and steady growth with an emphasis on security and quality?
The foundation has trustees, whose job is to ensure the goals of the foundation are being met, and they hire the CEO. In this case, one of the trustees is the CEO, which is a bit of a conflict of interest.
“Our legally binding purpose is to further the advancement of privacy, freedom, and democracy around the world. … We measure our return on investment not through financial metrics, but through impact.” (proton.me)
Now we know it's run by a dick too.
They sold fear. That was all.
Almost like where there's smoke, there's fire.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50251062
On the other hand, I do see the situation their leadership is in, even though they're not handling it in a respectful way. If the company needs to provide competitive services vs. everyone else who is using AI, they're just going to get left behind. And even for security: like if their engineers are skeptical about adopting AI how can they protect their system in a world with Mythos and all other kinds of AI running around attacking them? I imagine their product would attract employees who are more skeptical about AI, which is hard to change . They need to find a balance between keeping with the spirit and principles of their product but not be in denial about the new world we live in.
Why not just build a damn good product that has a steady revenue stream? You don’t have to compete in a race to the bottom. There are other ways.
My email provider is boring. They do email and nothing else. Feature development is glacial but reliable. I doubt they’re rich. I doubt they’re tripling their ARR. But they have a stable business as best as I can tell and seem happy with it.
This whole “the only way to compete is to eat the world” is stupid and only makes things worse.
Rotfl there's even this idea that you need vibecoded crap to resist Mythos? Oh my freaking god.
Also, any time anything comes out it gives a clear impression that the leadership are bullies, from the CEO on down. That creates an environment in which people are afraid to speak up, which means issues get overlooked. Which isn't great for security either.
I would have absolutely no problem with a CEO setting a solid, well-founded direction about the use of AI to improve their products while keeping a foundation of security and privacy. But Yen just sounds like a Silicon Valley tokenmaxxing douchebag.
Seems like dhh has a new pupil
Only thing that might save their face is kicking Andy and following up with Japanese levels of corporate apologizing.
This is essentially what I wrote in the "reason for leaving" comment box when I cancelled my annual subscription. I'm sure many others have/will as well; I'm less sure Proton will course-correct before it's too late.
Everything else - and I mean everything else - is ancillary to that core function. Seeing a CEO openly throw security out the window in favor of Big Tech’s latest drug addiction is bad enough, but the CEO of a company whose entire reputation is bucking Big Tech? Inexcusable.
Already looking for exit strategies. I don’t want to give this prick one red cent of my money.
Leaving Proton has been in the back of my mind for a while, and this is probably the last straw for me. I've previously heard that Fastmail is good, but I'm interested in what others are doing. I agree with you that email privacy and security are top of the list. I don't care about a private AI feature (eg, Proton's Lumo), and I don't need their productivity suite (docs, sheets, meetings). Just do one thing really well.
Looking for others' input on the right way to offboard from Proton.
There are a number of email providers I looked at when switching. Ended up going with mailbox as I was more confident about privacy of a company in Germany than Australia and they were a bit cheaper. Posteo seems like a good option if you don't have your own domain. I also looked at Tuta, but their lack of import killed them as an option, I'm not signing up for a higher subscription level to get that feature.
This has always been the case. Lack of transparency and dishonest, overzealous marketing.
I use Fastmail because they are at least honest about their limitations and Proton is completely overhyped in terms of the genuine privacy and security of their products. Good to know that beyond being mediocre they've confirmed it's all increasingly AI slop: "Ninety percent of code at Proton in October was written by AI"
Never trusted this company because of Andy, and never will.
Sounds so juvenile, worse than a teenager. Unfit for running a company dealing with secure mail.