"the West" geographically yes but the Australian public is hoovering up EVs right now.
Whoever hits the right window on an electric ute is going to make bank (it's probably more about getting another battery price reduction at this point so you can throw energy at the aerodynamics and range issues).
A friend of mine who's a "never EV" kind of guy, has bought some BYD Shark tray-top utes at his workplace. Mind you, they're hybrid not full EV, but it's big progress for his small mind ;)
The west? As far as I am concerned, EU moves towards EVs as well. Not as fast as China does, but it does. It's the US that doubles down on ICEs (pun intended).
You realize that “the west” is not just the United States, right? There are plenty of western countries around the world where EV sales are exploding. The Nordic countries and Australia come immediately to mind.
Australia has also seen an immense uptake in residential solar and batteries, driven by tariff-free imports from China.
Check and see where VW, BMW, Citroen and Peugeot are with regard to EV production vs ICE. They are no where near 'wanting to leave the past behind' as it would mean lots of mittelstands losing out and lots of jobs evaporating.
China is the one doubling down on fossil fuels. They are commissioning several coal plants. Meanwhile, the us is still reducing CO2 emission (us is currently at pre-WWI levels) and the mix of renewables is increasing.
They're building everything. Built more solar in 2025 than the US has in total, almost the same for wind, and currently building 36 nuclear plants. Also building more coal but coal usage is going down.
Coal is a stopgap for china. Until their renewables expansion can sustain their growth targets. They are being very veey aggresive in renewables until then to make that happen
China is building more coal plants but they're burning slightly less coal. They can do that because they're not Capitalists, so the fact that it's less economical doesn't matter to them if it meets their goals. These new plants are definitely stranded assets. For the US that would need massive government subsidies, in China they can just decide it shall be so.
> us is currently at pre-WWI levels
This involves quite a lot of sleight of hand which I'll generously assume you didn't understand. Firstly the measure you're thinking of per capita rates, whereas the Greenhouse Effect only cares about total emissions which are of course enormously higher; Secondly this requires carefully choosing a brief window ("pre-WW1") when the US used almost only coal, producing a tremendous amount of CO2 for its relatively small population; Thirdly it just entirely ignores the amount of off-shoring everything anybody else makes and then ships to the US is magically carbon-free under this thinking.
china's co2 emissions are widely thought to have reached a plateau in the last 2 years, and are entering structural decline as the renewables build out accelerates.
Since late 2025 is one year, not two. It could also be a blip since a lot of weird shit is happening in China, like lowered demand for Chinese goods and factories being burned down by unpaid workers
There's many more incidents if you know where to look (a good place to start is by searching 800哥). Brother 800 just got big enough to escape containment. Many get reasonably quickly scrubbed by the great firewall. To b e fair occasionally it happens in the US too, there was an incdient in LA earlier this year (US is china-ifying), just... not as much as in china.
The coal plant boom right now in China is an inefficient result of their political system, and not indicative of "doubling down" on fossil fuels.
They had a bunch of energy shortages back in 2022, politicians "had to do something", and green-lit a bunch of permits for coal power to stabilize energy generation.
Those are all coming online now, right as they are not needed. They're activating as much grid battery storage as they are coal, so the coal is doing nothing for supply stabilization. Actual coal burnt is going down. It's basically a scam by coal companies trying to get one in before renewable mandates take over.
The real story here is the splintering of "the west". The US doesn't want to move forward, but UK, Europe, AU/NZ all do.
It's not clear to me where Canada stands on this issue. I know they're an exporter of fuel to the US, so perhaps they are more US aligned on this?
Sadly, I think this highlights the problem with Carney's middle powers idea - it's difficult to all work together when you have competing interests.
As far as anecdotal evidence from AU, in the last 12 months the number of EVs on the road has exploded. Only a year ago, maybe a bit longer, I'd specifically notice the odd BYD here or there. Now, you can't get stuck in traffic without having a couple of them within ten metres.
Tesla's have been around the place for a while, but are also increasingly present, but are a greatly decreasing percentage of EVs.
The US is a bit of an outlier in "the west". They have extreme protectionist trade barriers to protect the local auto industry and fossil fuel producers. Most other "western" countries have a more Laissez-faire approach. Ironically the biggest driver for EV sales at the moment is high oil prices caused by US military action.
The US is simultaneously driving global EV adoption and the crazy growth of Chinese automotive technology and manufacturing and stranding their own automotive sector in the past. A lot of people who thought Trump was going to be a disaster are seeing him as an unwitting ally now.
> A lot of people who thought Trump was going to be a disaster are seeing him as an unwitting ally now.
Can you point to anybody in particular? Probably even Putin doesn't seem him as an "unwitting ally" as a result of how mercurial he is. Xi's references to a Thucydides Trap suggest that he too sees the unpredictability as unwelcome.
Starting a war in the Middle East doesn't really make you an ally of anti-fossil fuel groups. Sooner or later Israel was going to start most of those wars anyway.
The reason is there's fierce competition between automotive companies in China.
Markets elsewhere that consolidated down to the 2 or 3 domestic champions that settled into a comfortable coexistence with their domestic "competition", and are coddled by protectionist government policy will have a hard time remembering how to compete for real.
That sounds quite reminiscent of America's auto industry, as well as the desktop computer, smartphone, web search, AI, fast food and supermarket industries too.
The tariff thing is a bit misleading if you're not familiar with the industry. Kia/Hyundai produce some of the "most domestic" vehicles on the market. Hyundai EVs were beating all American brands (incl. Tesla) by domestic content when the tariffs came into effect. Those lines are very well positioned to accommodate them.
The article is talking about a certain specialty model that's only produced in Korea, probably because it's low volume.
You are repeating years-old news by now. It’s true that the 2022 through 2025 model years had the ICCU problem, but they improved the ICCU design in 2026, with both better hardware (heavier duty power electronics) and better software (slow start for 12V charging).
Of course time will tell whether this brings failure rate down to be negligible. But I feel pretty confident.
It's not years old news, I was looking at used models and it still is an ongoing question. Having no real fix (time will tell if the 2026 revised part is reliable) and leaving owners with a potential brick (and re-servicing it again when the part dies) is completely unacceptable. Many Kia's were lemon'ed based on this issue.
Maybe I'm sensitive as I have a young child, but I will not buy a car with a known potential of stranding me.
It should be noted that is for their E-GMP platform, which is their 800 V system. Their older 400 V platform, used on the Kia Niro and Hyundai Kona, has a completely different ICCU which has not had those problems. The first generation had some coolant leaks in the DC-DC converter housing and sometimes did a bad job keeping the 12 V battery charged but they seem to have got it all worked out for the second generation in 2024.
I was in Montevideo this weekend and all car service cars I rode were Chinese EVs. They all seemed great and when I had Claude look up pricing they were all very well-priced. While I myself would loe a BYD Seagull or Dolphin, the more expensive ones like the Greely EX5 looked much cooler than much more expensive cars I see on roads in the US.
I live in Punta del Este, we just bought a Geely and a BYD (both) coming from a VW ID.3.
For BYD, a Dolphin 2027 for 21K + VAT. Insane value, by extreme far the best price-perf vehicle in the country’s history. Has every single little thing you might want. For that size and price, at least.
Notably, Tesla is attempting to destabilize the local market, coming in at 30K+VAT for the Premium Model Y which is cheaper than the US, Europe and pretty much anywhere.
I still prefer BYD by far, and not supporting the “controversial fellow”.
At a 20x electricity to gas price ratio (depending on factors, but yes), EVs are key here.
Nobody cares what you would personally spend on a vehicle. The point is that it's a very good value, relatively speaking, for a new vehicle of its class.
The person was asking me if I had seen a specific car and I gave them my reaction to that car. BYD has cars I want that they sell for ~$15k in China which look like a much better value to me.
i would love to spend >$100k on a great electric car, idk if they're quite there yet and the rocket boosters aren't doing it for me in the tesla line up lol
Still needs a step change upgrade on the battery tech
You need to go to China then. There are dozens of manufacturers other than BYD. It's astonishing just how many sexy EVs there are driving around in China.
And the United states is likely to never get them. Unlike the chicken tax with light trucks, I wouldn't be surprised if the BIG 3 are so afraid they lobby to completely block them from ever being built and sold here.
I've been seeing more and more JAC small pickup trucks (diesel though, not electric) around Austin lately. I think people are bringing them up from Mexico.
I've been in a few BYDs as a passenger, I actually cannot fathom people spending money on them considering how low/cheap quality the interiors are. Like those garbage thin fake leather seats will have to be replaced within a year of use tops. Oh and also we broke the trunk's bedding by putting a mere 40kg bag in it, it just straight up collapsed.
I can. There’s no other equivalent in south east Asia. They are consistent, they are cheap to operators, they have a viable and trusted dealer network and are cheap to purchase with immediate upsides.
Have you priced a similar car like a Toyota vios or Yaris or Honda hrv or brv. These are ICE and gas is what, in the Philippines 2$.gallon?
The only viable alternative that is non Chinese for South east Asia is ironically Vinfast, which are available in the USA and quite ibexpensively.
If you’re biggest claim is the “sear” and the “trunk bedding” you are missing the entire point of what this car is and it’s market position.
It's bringing EVs to the masses. There's so much potential in places like Europe and Latin America, where most consumers don't drive big SUVs and trucks. Apparently battery packs were about $1,200 per kWh in 2010, today it's $140/kWh. EVs are finally becoming mainstream
Unlike Teslas, several that I've been in had a small display that showed things like current speed in the traditional position behind the steering wheel. Only having that large, center display in newer Tesla's freaks me out. I haven't driven one myself but it seems very unergonomic.
I've been in 6 or 7 between Spain and Indonesia (Uber/Grab). All of them had RGB mood lighting, enormous center displays, large digital gauge clusters, full pano sunroofs, good materials, good sound isolation from outside, and great AC. It's not a surprise the big three in the US are lobbying so hard to keep them out of the US... they'd be obliterated.
It's really not much different than most cars people use every day. Nothing weird is happening with my seats. And I put 40kg+ in the boot without problems either. I've not seen reports of this being a problem overall - maybe you just got very unlucky?
I get not liking something for personal preference reasons, but going as far as garbage and cheap quality in this case just... doesn't match reality. It's a perfectly fine car that works. Lots of people are happy with it.
I don't know the model exactly but every Uber (maybe six of them?) I was in in Mexico City was the same model BYD and it was really plasticky and they all rattled on every bump in the road.
Maybe their more expensive models are better but they're damaging their brand putting it on those cars.
I know it can be shocking for tech people making good money, but whether the interior is plasticky and rattling is typically far down the checklist for most people buying a car.
This shows the inverted priorities people have in the US. The main feature of a car is the price you pay to get it working and serviced. If it has high end leather seats is a secondary decision left for people with extra money in the bank.
The average consumer isn’t going to buy an electric car for climate reasons - they’re going to buy it to save money. So they want it cheap and they want to not have to wait ages for it to charge. The Chinese cars deliver on both fronts (provided sufficient infrastructure for fast charging). If the car doesn’t last 10 years that’s okay if they’re saving enough money.
Fast charging is massively overrated. Most people's charging needs are better taken care of by charging overnight at home. You're getting electricity cheaper than at fast chargers, and you aren't even altering your commute in any way to charge/refuel. The only issue with this is lack of residential charging infrastructure for apartment buildings, but getting 240V to a parking spot is orders of magnitude cheaper than building a fast charger.
> spending money on them considering how low/cheap quality the interiors are
Because that's the point. It's a cheap reliable car that cut corners for high $$$ ROI fleet cars. There's reason most of PRC taxi fleet converted to BYD EVs over last 10 years. It's statistically battle proven and economical, they'll 500,000km like ICE fleet cars and save 30k USD - on fuel + maintenance savings alone you can buy another 2 fleet BYDs. Like a fleet operator would have to be economically stupid to not go for BYD tier EV. You get to enjoy cheap seats.
Bought a BYD, cross shopped it with some Mazdas and Toyotas. For less money we got more fruit, a full BEV and the Japanese brands materials were equivalent or worse.
Toyota interiors in particular are hard plastic monstrosities.
I'm sort of reminded of the Regular Car Reviews review of the Geo Metro, where he spent the first maybe 5 minutes of the video trying to manage viewers expectations. So he talked for a while about judging a thing based on how good it is at being what it's trying to be, not how bad it is at being something else. And then he talked for a while about how the Geo Metro's entire purpose is to be as economical as possible.
And then he spent the rest of the review talking about all the features about the car that people typically hated on, but in a positive light. Because if your primary goal is to make the cheapest car, with the highest fuel economy, for the benefit of people who don't have a whole lot of spending money, those were exactly the design compromises to be making.
RCR went downhill fast when he realized the easy button to online automotive content was to just fellatiate Toyota.
The geo metro isn't that far off from everything else in its day when it comes to build quality, better than comparable models that hadn't been refreshed in longer.
Build quality was indeed pretty good. But it was still obviously a cheap car. The RCR review correctly pointed out that it was noisy as heck on the highway, had trouble getting up to 65mph, was just kind of generally uncomfortable, etc.
Contrast with, e.g., my stepmom's Jeep Grand Cherokee that was expensive and loaded with luxury features but had awful build quality and was constantly in the shop.
I spend a lot of time in Asia so I’ve been in dozens and dozens of BYDs while taking Grab rides.
I agree on the low build quality, but one thing that I’ve noticed as well is the atrocious ride quality. Hitting a small speed bump results in a jarring shock for the passenger combined with a loud clunk from the car.
I thought it was the road until I road in a few Toyotas over the same road and the speed bump was a gentle rocking of the car.
Not sure if it’s just a consequence of the battery weight or what but it feels like I’m riding in pickup truck when I’m in a BYD
Over a year ago, I got rid of my Tesla Model Y and paid ~$50k for the RAV4 Plug-in Hybrid XSE. Talk about low/cheap quality interior and what a major downgrade it was from the Tesla interior. The seats are trash, you can't even program them, and all the paneling is scuffable plastic garbage.
We hardly ever use gas for daily driving though and we had a few road trips in the US which made the good gas mileage and ability to use gas when needed oh so nice. But outside that and the mechanical reliability of it so far, everything about this car says "cheap". It definitely makes a more affordable BYD look attractive to me.
I've been daily driving a BYD Shark I purchased outright in February and I couldn't disagree with you more. The interior is well built and well thought out. I have rocker switches that compliment my touch screen.
Oh, and my midsize pickup is averaging 122MPG as it's a PHEV. My ongoing costs for driving have been decimated by buying this thing.
There is no logical reason to ban vehicles except protectionism and protection of manufacturing capability domestically. There is no security risk from Chinese EVs that requires a full ban.
If you think labor exploitation on that scale is comparable to even extreme immigration enforcement policies, then we can’t have a rational discussion. And I can have whatever position I want despite how you feel about those policies.
> There is no security risk from Chinese EVs that requires a full ban.
Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to [map] you.
Of course there is a risk to allowing networked automobile sensor packages on your streets if they're feeding a potential adversary live info on everything going on on and around your roads. Denying this isn't virtuous or smart or benevolent, it is at the best naïve.
I mean, right, but the word "protectionism" isn't the end of the argument. US-China trade relations are conducted in the context of the extremely serious problem that one day not too long from now China will rupture them by invading Taiwan. The US has to protect itself from that.
We do. The Department of Commerce notice proposing the connected vehicle rules (https://public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2024-21903.pdf) extensively discussed the national security risks of letting technology developed by foreign adversaries run US cars, although one such risk is the consumer privacy of individuals who might themselves be important to national security or be blackmailed into sabotaging national security. I don't know why it's sometimes presented as though it's purely consumer privacy.
EVs connect to people's home wifi and they are probably the most powerful compute on the network. You claim to be Infosec, yet cannot fathom any issues here?
The thing about protectionism is that sometimes it works. Also China is definitely not playing any kind of a fair game. Also adding another supply chain dependency is definitely a geopolitical risk.
I feel like most of the people I know (Americans) don't truly realize how utterly huge Chinese cities are.
I think about my home city (6th largest in the US) with its singular interstate looping around our metro area - and Beijing has five of these ring roads on top of having a far more robust public transportation system and tons of scooter/bike usage still.
A single carmaker outselling all of US-made electric vehicles is just normal especially given the prices of these cars (down to something like $8000 USD) and the fact that they live in such dense areas that don't require you to drive 20 miles just to, for eg, get to a Costco or something. So you can have these ultracheap cars with maybe twice the range of lithium-powered electric golf cart and not spend a ton of money on it.
One bellweather reason for this state being impressive is that this is china's domestic market demonstrating the buying power needed to fuel private innovation
This used to be something only the US could do. China always had the population. But it wasnt rich enough to create local demand. Now it can and that creates a flywheel effect of feuling its own innovation, like EVs, LLMs, reusable rockets, sattelite ISPs, and all the other thingsthe US prides itself on.
And eventually it might even make novel things the US or anyone else hasnt even made yet. If that happens then the american empire is truly over
I'm pretty sure we're witnessing the accelerating confirmation of this right now, for all the reasons you've already stated. The US still has some niches at which it's ahead, but China is a mere intellectual property theft away from being able to pwn those areas as well (rightly, or likely wrongly, but even 'wrongly' by any law is 'rightly' by China's point of view, same as plenty of US decisions of late - the lens makes all the difference).
I think the one caveat to this is that consumer spending and GDP growth has slowed dramatically especially following the housing bubble popping (remember Evergrande?)
A lot of the very high-tech manufacturing in China is still dependent on Western supply chains (ASML is one major one for semi-conductors) and there's a level of complexity and specialized knowledge there that probably doesn't exist domestically yet so the transition to a knowledge-dominant vs manufacturing-dominant economy is hitting a logarithmic wall.
That said, China's intellectual property ecosystem is extremely open and free. This is really a cultural thing, embedded since the early days of China's printing press half a thousand years ago when editing, rewriting, and printing your own versions of someone elses's works was totally normalized (think AO3 but standardized and normalized at a societal level). So we'll get to see whether or not that business-friendly theory of 'IP exists to protect genius inventors and without it we have no inventions' governing theory bears out or if a completely permissive and free ecosystem is better for innovation in the longterm.
BYD is also expected to export 2.5 million vehicles outside China this year. They are the largest manufacturer of EVs in the world, and not just for the Chinese market.
> don't truly realize how utterly dense and populated[] Chinese cities are
- A US and a China professor are talking in a bar. "We have about 10,000 students" they agree. But no, one is thinking of their university, the other of their department.
- Population of Wyoming < Louisville, KY (KY's largest city). Pop KY < NYC. Pop US Northeast region < Pearl River Delta megalopolis. PRD is sort of like a 20x compressed US Southeast, with 3x lower GDP.
USA bans the onboard Chinese automotive software for national security reasons, effectively banning Chinese cars.
For all the talk about data and technology sovereignty in Europe about USA tech, you would think they would take that more seriously too. Instead Europe is flooded with underpriced Chinese cars that they have no control over.
There can be several motivations that are all equally valid. We should ask Europeans if they think national security has become a major concern in the face of their overwhelming reliance on USA technology and services.
Is this American overwhelming or European overwhelming? You know, the way everything is bigger in America? The claim is inflated. Yes, the US dominates parts of the digital tech economy. To imagine that as unilateral dependence is foolish. The US depends on European companies like ASML, hundreds of billions in European investment annually. Europeans used to trust the US and were happy to buy US products and services. That's over now. The US, and particular, the current administration, has shat the bed. The decoupling is underway and will not be reversed. I recommend the YouTube channel HouseOfEL if you'd like read the writing on the wall.
I've yet to see an actual premium EV akin to the ICE cars from Lexus, Acura, or Genesis.
In fact that's my problem with all EVs because EVEN Lexus, Acura, and Genesis is not sticking to their premium quality when they release an EV version of their ICE cars. The Lexus ES ICE is legendary. The Lexus ES EV looks like a plastic coffin with 2 tablets. It's probably the zeigeist of car designs and/or my taste but I feel all EVs look the same without much personality. Not even mentioning the chinese brands because Geely, Leapmotor, BYD etc all look the same to me.
Say we have a Lexus LX 600 https://www.lexus.com/models/LX Why does this car can't be released as is, the same design and same interior but with an EV drivetrain?
Car makers can't win! Release an EV with "personality" aka looks different from an ICE, and people will complain why can't they make an EV that looks like a normal car. Release an EV that looks like a normal ICE and someone's going to complain it has no personality. Ah well.
The 'personality', that EVs used to seemingly be designed with, seemed universally ugly for a long time. Nissan Leaf (I own one, so familiarity has softened my opinion), Toyota Prius, BMW i3, all fucking ugly cars. It was like they didn't want to sell them in order to justify not putting further R&D into them, or they wanted to see how committed the market was, despite the butt-ugliness.
Current era is SUV-look for almost literally every car (even the Mini has the 'Countryman' variant, which makes a mockery of the very name 'Mini'), so EVs have essentially followed that bland-ness to now be leading it.
Polestar's are the nicest looking EVs, outside of the high-level performance cars that are out of the practical range of normal people.
thats because there is zero demand as has been all over the news the past years. the european and especially german car industry wasted billions on EV strategies that now have to be rewound because it turns out there is basically zero demand for expensive EVs. people that can afford expensive cars want ICE.
I think it's a huge regression vs. the goofy looking i3 (which is carbon fiber, has a working jog wheel, etc). The i4 is basically exactly a modern BMW sedan, but an EV. I think they moved to a platform that lets them just switch between ICE, hybrid and EV. You can even set the safety tone to make it sound like a BMW with tuned exhaust pipes.
Have you had a chance to ride in the Chinese EVs? Opinions on exterior designs are pretty subjective and change a lot over time (see: Porsche 996). I've driven and ridden in a lot of Chinese EVs over the past two years and find them much more luxurious than ICE cars across the price range. Most of them have huge panoramic sunroofs now that make even the small cars feel open and spacious, the technology is actually useful instead of a gimmick (Chinese navigation apps are way better than western ones, which is a big deal when the primary interface is a tablet), many of the cars can autopark/drive, they have cameras for all the blind spots, USB-c and magnetic chargers everywhere, fast charging, etc. etc.
I would encourage anyone that lives in America or Europe and hasn't been to China in the past five years to go see it for yourself. Take what western media writes with a grain of salt - you might be surprised.
Luxury seems like a tricky move for EVs. All those extra features add weight, which eats into range. I would guess that undermines your own sales pitch because people who want to spend a lot on their car are generally going to be people who expect to spend a lot of time in their car.
I imagine it's just a fundamentally more palatable compromise for an ICE vehicle. You maybe bump the size of the fuel tank a bit and assume your clientele aren't going to be all that much more cost sensitive about fuel than they are about sticker price and maintenance.
Comparing it to the US isn’t really meaningful considering the EV market here is on life support.
Federal subsidies were eliminated. Funding for charging infrastructure and battery manufacturing was rolled back. ICE emission regulations were repealed. Individual states were barred from enforcing their own standards.
Most domestic manufacturers have given up on EVs entirely and written off their investments. Tesla is the only one standing, and their US sales have also been falling for the last couple years.
Looking back 2024 is probably going to be the peak of the US EV market.
This post really fails to go beyond basic headlines.
> Federal subsidies were eliminated. Funding for charging infrastructure and battery manufacturing was rolled back.
These are both signs of a maturing market. It's a good thing that DCFC operators like Ionna, Walmart, etc. are still charging ahead at a pretty rapid pace, even without federal funding. Ionna especially has been deploying at a crazy speed.
> Individual states were barred from enforcing their own standards.
Litigation on this is still playing out. If car manufacturers aren't planning for these to swing back into force with a change of government, they are fooling themselves.
> Most domestic manufacturers have given up on EVs entirely and written off their investments.
Again, not true. Some investments like battery manufacturing, sure, but that's not what they were ever good at. GM has a pretty robust line of EVs, and Ford has bet big on their new platform underpinning on their new 'affordable' truck.
> Tesla is the only one standing, and their US sales have also been falling for the last couple years.
2023 was a stand out year for them, but it's not like they are falling off a cliff. We should expect Tesla sales to fall as other competitors like Rivian, Hyundai/Kia and even Toyota/Subaru release updated offerings.
Hmm. 16 million cars sold in the US each year. 1.2 million EVs sold each year. "Maturing" at less than 8% market share is not a good sign.
> Litigation on this is still playing out...these to swing back into force with a change of government
Have you not lived in the US, like ever? It will take anywhere from approximately a decade to never to claw back even a fraction of an progressive legislation or regulation.
> We should expect Tesla sales to fall...when [vague new things come out]
Ideological reasons, yes, but the fact remains is the EV market is still standing on its own. Sure, the EV market is not growing anywhere near as fast as other parts of the world, but it is still growing. People talk about their EVs and it's becoming clear to even to people who don't have one that they are useful vehicles.
Every once in a while people ask about cost and discover that for most people charging in your garage is significantly cheaper than anything else and charging on the road is still cheaper than gas and while it does take longer it's not too bad.
And as was pointed out, there is every reason to believe that there'll be a change in administration in the federal level in a few years. And once again, the rules will change. The car manufacturers are going to keep building what they know and have good investments in. But they're going to keep investing in EVs both because in the world they're important players and also because they know the government will change and with it their rules and they don't want to be left behind.
It's great for Tesla regardless of the overall EV market in the US. Anyone with money in China is willing to pay more for a Tesla because they know its superior. It's quite like their obsession with Apple products.
In many way Tesla products in China are viewed as superior. Recent reviews funded by the CCP showed their self driving is the only reliable one in China as well as the recent negative publicity from Huawei and their brake failures on their luxury models.($150,000)
You basically said this but charging at home literally eliminates fueling time and empty tank anxiety completely.
Get in your car, drive up to a few hundred miles. Dive home. Repeat. Never stop for fuel ever. That is what EV life is like for many people. I think most people.
That's about 95%, but there's still that last 5% of road trips that an EV does need to find a place to stop. Fortunately, there are places to charge an EV all over. Not quite as convenient as a gas station, but more than good enough for most trips.
Need to go to San Francisco (~90 min away, no good place to charge there so need to get back too). Can we make it? Mild panic. No, we can't.
Drive to a fast charger place nearby. Spend 45 minutes charging, bored with nothing to do. We were on time but now we're very late. Child is grumpy because we'll miss the start of the event (this is for watching Fleet Week last month). Finally get going, got there late due to time wasted charging, missed a few planes.
Coming home in the evening, battery is at 30% with half hour to go, partner is panicking. Will we make it? Maybe? Do we detour to a fast charger found on the map? Yes! No, maybe we'll be ok. Rather not stop in some dark sketchy place to charge for 30+ minutes. Let's hope for the best and keep going. Got home with ~10% left, stress on high alert.
Maybe some people like the adrelanine rush of this kind of stress on every road trip, but it's not for me.
As someone with a degree in human machine interaction: stop blaming machine problems on the user. Humans should not have to plan like that.
All the gas cars I've ever had, if I did a few gallons of gas, would only take a few minutes. Overall, the cost savings is worth having an EV, but charging time is a major downside. We need to stop blaming people for the downside of the technology.
There's a minimum level of competence expected before operating machines. I blame someone if they run out of gas. I blame someone if they run out of battery energy.
The charge time is a downside, but it's not like (particularly in San Francisco) there isn't an abundance of options that will give you 90+ miles in 5 minutes.
Yeah, and I personally don't buy what he's putting down. He's 90 minutes away from San Fransisco and doesn't have anywhere he can charge without waiting for 45 minutes? I find that highly suspect. That'd put the trip distance at around 100 miles (assuming 70mph average). Which, unless you are literally driving an old Nissan leaf, you could comfortably traverse with basically all EVs on the market.
But further, in that 100 mile radius, there's EV chargers literally ever 10 miles or more on all major roads.
Because the charge curve on basically all EVs starts high at a low state of charge, there's basically no reason he'd have to wait more that 5 or 10 minutes at a stop to continue on his trip. 45 minutes is absurd.
I say this as someone that lives in Idaho and makes 6 hour road trips relatively regularly. Even on my longest "without charger" stretches, the wait is roughly 20 minutes to get enough to get to the next charger.
> anywhere he can charge without waiting for 45 minutes?
Not sure what you're saying, there are places to charge, but it takes a long while. That's what caused the big delay in the trip.
> there's EV chargers literally every 10 miles or less on all major roads.
Right. There is no lack of available chargers on the way. The issue is having to stop and wait a long while.
We don't have a tesla, but charge at the tesla fast charger station near the house, they work for our car. Took 45 minutes to bring the charge up enough for a round trip to SF.
> Because the charge curve on basically all EVs starts high at a low state of charge, there's basically no reason he'd have to wait more that 5 or 10 minutes at a stop to continue on his trip. 45 minutes is absurd.
Amusing when people are so confidently wrong. That's exactly how long it took to charge. Not to a 100%, but enough to be able to do a round trip to SF.
> This seems to be a planning issue more than an EV issue...
Yes, and no.
Yes, we definitely could have planned better the night before that we're taking the EV so we could've driven to the nearby fast charger and wait those 45 minutes then, to be ready to go in the morning. This is undeniably true.
But also, it is an EV issue.
If we had taken the gas car and noticed in the morning that the tank was almost empty, we could've done a quick 3 minute stop at the gas station which is on the same street we'd drive on anyway (no detour) and that's that.
No, none compatible with the plans anyway. We were going to an event, and had pre-purchased parking at a parking garage near the event. That's where the car was going to be all day. The garage does not have EV chargers available for our use.
That is ideal, but unfortunately nobody can afford homes these days so we're stuck with rarely available car ports in apartment complexes with no charging ports.
Likewise, Musk's Sieg Heil and association with Trump didn't help- instant ~25% drop in sales (60% in Europe). It's like when that Campbell's executive said their soup is "shit for fucking poor people".
Even here in Mexico EVs have tariffs that make them as costly as ICEs, just to please Trump. EVs are becoming popular here, but the market is far from mature. I don't think it was ideological, but short-sighted protectionist reasons, though.
>These are both signs of a maturing market. It's a good thing that DCFC operators like Ionna, Walmart, etc. are still charging ahead at a pretty rapid pace, even without federal funding. Ionna especially has been deploying at a crazy speed.
But the market isn't mature. It COULD be the sign of a maturing market, or it COULD be the sign of politicians that take large sums of money from oil companies gaining power and gutting subsidies.
>Again, not true. Some investments like battery manufacturing, sure, but that's not what they were ever good at. GM has a pretty robust line of EVs, and Ford has bet big on their new platform underpinning on their new 'affordable' truck.
Ford has GREATLY reduced their EV plans. How's that EV Explorer coming along? Right, scrapped. The F-150 is scrapped, the maverick-esque platform will likely find a lukewarm response followed by further contractsion. It will be double the price of a slate, and nowhere near as nice as the Rivian.
Yeah Ford killed the f150 lightning because it appealed to no one. Trades people didn't want to fuck with charging their vehicle. Normal people didn't want to pay 100k for a truck.
Their new one is very interesting. I wanted an electric truck when I bought my most recent one but just couldn't afford it. If it's 30k for the base, figure 40k with bells and whistles. That makes it super attainable with a decent trade.
My interest in the Ford truck entirely depends on how thoroughly I can neuter its ability to talk to any network. Slate might be the clear winner there (and only "might" because of that insane kill-switch law).
If Trump hadn’t petulantly killed the EV subside, hundreds of thousands of additional EVs would be on American roads today. That’s hundreds of thousands of voters who wouldn’t be reacting to gas prices.
Our lucky streak as America—Russia blowing itself up, China going wolf warrior right when they needed to build alliances—may continue in our wannabe fascist being so fucking stupid.
> Our lucky streak as America—Russia blowing itself up, China going wolf warrior right when they needed to build alliances—may continue in our wannabe fascist being so fucking stupid.
You are decidedly not on a lucky streak.
Your Dear Leader just threw the US into yet another incompetently waged war on the other side of the world, he tore apart bridges with virtually all allies the US had, including Canada of all places, his reckless usage of his powers to influence corporate decisions (i.e. the ICC sanctions and DoD/Musk throttling Starlink/Starshield for Ukraine) made everyone realize they need their own alternatives not beholden to the US for literally anything, the AI bubble growing uncontrollably while the QE money injections never got taken out of the system is setting you up for a financial disaster that will make 2007 look tame...
Agreed, but my point still stands - they are the ones who sent America off to its probably most consequential bad luck streak in centuries.
> it was a failure of democracy: not enough people showed up to vote and many who voted were poorly informed.
Oh hell no. They chose to fall for the anti-trans and anti-immigrant rhetoric. They voted for Trump because Trump promised to make "the others" suffer. The entire operating principle of the GOP and especially its Evangelical wing has been "the suffering is the point" for decades.
I get the "cruelty was the point" angle -- it's absolutely part of that equation. But a lot of those voters were voting out of anger and feeling abandoned and unserved by the government. Ignoring the aforementioned ugly parts -- Trump made a play at populism (albeit all lies) to an electorate hungry for change.
Bear in mind that Harris was playing the "the economy is fine!" angle, which it technically was as far as GDP and the stock markets. But that ignored the fact that for millions it was not so great.
My point about "not enough people showed up to vote" as aimed at the youth vote who is apathetic about such things, and more importantly, a lot of crucial voters who were angry about the situation in Gaza. The irony on that last point is that Harris was absolutely the lesser of two evils in that regard.
I think a majority of voters vote based on their emotions, how their parents voted, or a specific manner of "what's in it for me". I have tempered faith in the electorate as a whole.
> Bear in mind that Harris was playing the "the economy is fine!" angle, which it technically was as far as GDP and the stock markets. But that ignored the fact that for millions it was not so great.
And Trump, ironically, is falling into the same trap. Without AI and its wash trading the economy would be in a deep recession, but the stonk markets do not reflect that reality.
Conspiracy warning. Let's say "thought experiment" instead.
I wonder whether Trump has long-recognised the decline of the US, and is planning for his legacy to be setting up his family well enough to be able to move to wherever else in the world opportunity presents itself (or where oligarchies would appreciate their contributions - after all, "there's always another oligarchy"). Essentially both shorting the US and forcing the downfall to occur (and making the progress of its occurrence faster).
I'm interested to see the Trump family's reactions to the inevitable disenfrachisement that the real, long-term outcomes of this will manifest.
Charging infrastructure is blossoming. It is funded by private companies. Roadtripping in an EV is pretty seamless now. I'm driving to Death Valley in a couple of weeks. Plenty of charging options along the way.
Because funding for that network was provided for the several years before these changes were made.
They didn’t put money to rip out existing infrastructure and funding (let’s not give them ideas). It’s future EV charging growth and maintenance that will be affected, and its impact will be felt years from now.
That's just false. I don't think US automakers outside of Tesla have done well with EVs to date, but Ford went back to the drawing board a few years ago and is now near to releasing it's revamped EV platform that they believe will be actually competitive: https://www.fromtheroad.ford.com/us/en/universal-electric-ve...
> 2024 is probably going to be the peak of the US EV market
peak ever? no way. you can only think that if you havent been paying attention at all as to whats going on in the rest of the world. The EV transition is assured, the only variable is how long it takes a market to realize. The US can only resist gravity for so long.
In my opinion, the core concept is simple: China is a big market that's getting wealthier and BYD makes cheap and innovative cars.
Owning a vehicle is going from a luxury for wealthy people in China to a more every-day thing, driving huge volumes. Meanwhile the rest of the world (US excluded for now) is trying to electrify personal transportation, and China is meeting that demand better than any other country.
Hah was wondering if someone else had read that announcement/ finding.
Coupled with this https://www.theatlantic.com/international/2026/10/chinese-co... (lots of dead companies being propped up artificially by the govt and not allowed to fail so people stay employed) the strategy of cornering every global export market until complete dominance seems to be very a much make it or break it approach here. So the US blocking one important industry with likely lots of subsidies does make more sense under that light.
That is a big part of what drove down the price of lab diamonds in the world. The China-domestic market bought a ton of them for engagements, then they stopped getting engaged after the real-estate crash, and now there is a supply glut.
It’s amazing to me Waymo saw the estimated 50000-80000 tariff penalty (and time and money invested for essentially reinstalling electronics ) in their latest fleet worth it. American sourced options must really pale in comparison or be non existent and I wish I could just write off auto tariffs like that.
It will be interesting to see how these cars perform over years and decades. One of the major cost saving mechanisms BYD uses is lumping components togther. An issue with one part of the drive train means the whole drive train may need to be replaced. The battery pack being part of the chassis means a small accident could become a write-off. Initial cost savings at manufacture will be passed on to the owner in mainntenance.
That doesn't seem to be too far off from the status quo for typical American cars, which are fully capable of being totaled by a collision that only damages the bumper.
What are the manufacturing times for Tesla's down to? Low minutes or high seconds?
It would seem that a replacement entire car may be more economical than fixing anything. Like printers, buying a new one is cheaper than replacing the ink in the old one.
All manufacturing is moving this way, not even intentionally, but as a by-product of process efficiency.
Whilst Tesla is probably leading the way for car manufacture in the US, the other car companies are probably similar. EVs are also greatly helped in this by having far fewer moving parts, and so they're either more 'modular' or almost entirely monolithic. Makes for interesting hypotheticals about 'replacement' vs 'fix' into the future and manufacturing for 'ease of recycling/reclaiming'.
that's the new reality with a lot of modern vehicles. i'm not naming the brand here but a guy who's very familiar with one of the EV brands' manufacturing process told me the same thing that you posted. even a small fender bender is more than enough to total a car.
Not exactly related to overall component maintenance, but this guy became a small YouTube celebrity for having a 200.000 miles BYD Dolphin with 87% battery health and no major issues. He get comments from many other owners (mostly Uber drivers) having similar experience.
Analysis is available for 5 years at https://driveauthority.com/is-byd-reliable-after-5-years/ , including actual maintenance costs over the period. No empirical evidence for 10 years yet of course. You certainly do want to buy expecting it to last for a couple of decades because the deprecation rate is really high (maybe because the tech has been moving so fast).
It basically started in the 70s with the outsourcing of manufacturing to China, and the short term thinking and naivete (hubris?) that China would not do anything and everything to use this to their global strategic advantage. Sure, lots of US executives made _mother-fucking bank_ but the massive amounts of money they made was essentially for the sale of US dominance to China over the course of 50 years. They can say "I got mine" though, which seems to be current zeitgeist.
China wins because playing the long game wins - or having X billion expendable population under a dictatorship wins - possibly/probably the combination of both.
Americans love complaining about gas prices too much to give up their ICE cars. Every manufacturer save Tesla and Hyundai/Kia have given up on the market. Let the Chinese in.
China already outsold ICE cars than USA by volume. If you factor in ppp, China car market value crush USA. And now they are selling EVs, hybrids, and even farm-relatedachinery and vehicles crushing Deere. If you visit ASEAN, Africa, South America, and even Australia, Chinese cars everywhere. I grew up during Japanese dominant era, and then SKorea. Today Chinese cars everywhere even more dominant than back then. USA is fast on track Great Britain track.
The US economy has basically been taken over by venture capital and they're milking all the assets and value that they can. It's all short term thinking. Hype economy so the rich can cash out.
The U.S. and Europe are considering closing off their auto markets and people there will end up driving dinosaurs in a time of primates.
The electrification of cars is inevitable. Not in a small part because EVs can be made much more cheaply than ICE cars, which are mechanically complex. EVs also need little to no maintenance (except for consumables like tires, brakes and shock absorbers) which saves you at least $1200 a year alone.
Last but not least is that we'll see standardization of car components in a few years which will lead to lower prices, greater innovation and an almost limitless availability of parts. Electric motors, motor controllers, chargers and batteries will become interchangeable between brands and makes.
220 comments
[ 0.25 ms ] story [ 74.4 ms ] threadWhoever hits the right window on an electric ute is going to make bank (it's probably more about getting another battery price reduction at this point so you can throw energy at the aerodynamics and range issues).
Australia has also seen an immense uptake in residential solar and batteries, driven by tariff-free imports from China.
The west? You mean the USA. Europe is happy to leave the past behind.
Citation needed.
To be honest there are a few red flags in the comment we've replied to if you know what I mean
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co2-emissions-per-...
Google says that in the last 5 years China has increased renewable from 464 GW to 1,840 GW
And fossil fuels from 1,250 GW to ~1,590 GW
So given they are increasing the mix of renewables I'm not sure doubling down on renewables is a good phrase
> us is currently at pre-WWI levels
This involves quite a lot of sleight of hand which I'll generously assume you didn't understand. Firstly the measure you're thinking of per capita rates, whereas the Greenhouse Effect only cares about total emissions which are of course enormously higher; Secondly this requires carefully choosing a brief window ("pre-WW1") when the US used almost only coal, producing a tremendous amount of CO2 for its relatively small population; Thirdly it just entirely ignores the amount of off-shoring everything anybody else makes and then ships to the US is magically carbon-free under this thinking.
Show numbers, not speculation.
But by your responses in these threads, its clear you just have an axe to grind with china. good day.
https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-chinas-co2-emissions-fa...
I don't know if you trust radio free asia, but:
https://www.rfa.org/mandarin/shehui/2025/05/23/china-sichuan...
There's many more incidents if you know where to look (a good place to start is by searching 800哥). Brother 800 just got big enough to escape containment. Many get reasonably quickly scrubbed by the great firewall. To b e fair occasionally it happens in the US too, there was an incdient in LA earlier this year (US is china-ifying), just... not as much as in china.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Kimberly-Clark_distributi...
They had a bunch of energy shortages back in 2022, politicians "had to do something", and green-lit a bunch of permits for coal power to stabilize energy generation.
Those are all coming online now, right as they are not needed. They're activating as much grid battery storage as they are coal, so the coal is doing nothing for supply stabilization. Actual coal burnt is going down. It's basically a scam by coal companies trying to get one in before renewable mandates take over.
It's not clear to me where Canada stands on this issue. I know they're an exporter of fuel to the US, so perhaps they are more US aligned on this? Sadly, I think this highlights the problem with Carney's middle powers idea - it's difficult to all work together when you have competing interests.
but the federal and ontario governments want to protect the auto industry in southern ontario
we did just let in something like 50,000 chinese vehicles this year though
Tesla's have been around the place for a while, but are also increasingly present, but are a greatly decreasing percentage of EVs.
Relevant stats: https://solarcalculator.com.au/blog/ev-sales-statistics/
The US is simultaneously driving global EV adoption and the crazy growth of Chinese automotive technology and manufacturing and stranding their own automotive sector in the past. A lot of people who thought Trump was going to be a disaster are seeing him as an unwitting ally now.
Can you point to anybody in particular? Probably even Putin doesn't seem him as an "unwitting ally" as a result of how mercurial he is. Xi's references to a Thucydides Trap suggest that he too sees the unpredictability as unwelcome.
Starting a war in the Middle East doesn't really make you an ally of anti-fossil fuel groups. Sooner or later Israel was going to start most of those wars anyway.
If it isn't, it's certainly an advantage over the trashy EVs we have in America.
Markets elsewhere that consolidated down to the 2 or 3 domestic champions that settled into a comfortable coexistence with their domestic "competition", and are coddled by protectionist government policy will have a hard time remembering how to compete for real.
Man, China's been taking notes.
https://www.carscoops.com/2026/03/tariffs-kill-kias-hottest-...
The article is talking about a certain specialty model that's only produced in Korea, probably because it's low volume.
Of course time will tell whether this brings failure rate down to be negligible. But I feel pretty confident.
Maybe I'm sensitive as I have a young child, but I will not buy a car with a known potential of stranding me.
Not clear to me why they started it with such low inventory, but I ended up getting a new Leaf since I couldn't wait another bunch of months.
For BYD, a Dolphin 2027 for 21K + VAT. Insane value, by extreme far the best price-perf vehicle in the country’s history. Has every single little thing you might want. For that size and price, at least.
Notably, Tesla is attempting to destabilize the local market, coming in at 30K+VAT for the Premium Model Y which is cheaper than the US, Europe and pretty much anywhere.
I still prefer BYD by far, and not supporting the “controversial fellow”.
At a 20x electricity to gas price ratio (depending on factors, but yes), EVs are key here.
Still needs a step change upgrade on the battery tech
They're not bad when you're in them but they're not amazing either. The thing is: they're incredibly good value compared to other brand new cars.
But the interior of a great many german cars (for example) is still qualitatively not just a bit but way above BYD.
Have you priced a similar car like a Toyota vios or Yaris or Honda hrv or brv. These are ICE and gas is what, in the Philippines 2$.gallon?
The only viable alternative that is non Chinese for South east Asia is ironically Vinfast, which are available in the USA and quite ibexpensively.
If you’re biggest claim is the “sear” and the “trunk bedding” you are missing the entire point of what this car is and it’s market position.
But hey, this is how propaganda works.
I get not liking something for personal preference reasons, but going as far as garbage and cheap quality in this case just... doesn't match reality. It's a perfectly fine car that works. Lots of people are happy with it.
Maybe their more expensive models are better but they're damaging their brand putting it on those cars.
Because that's the point. It's a cheap reliable car that cut corners for high $$$ ROI fleet cars. There's reason most of PRC taxi fleet converted to BYD EVs over last 10 years. It's statistically battle proven and economical, they'll 500,000km like ICE fleet cars and save 30k USD - on fuel + maintenance savings alone you can buy another 2 fleet BYDs. Like a fleet operator would have to be economically stupid to not go for BYD tier EV. You get to enjoy cheap seats.
Toyota interiors in particular are hard plastic monstrosities.
And then he spent the rest of the review talking about all the features about the car that people typically hated on, but in a positive light. Because if your primary goal is to make the cheapest car, with the highest fuel economy, for the benefit of people who don't have a whole lot of spending money, those were exactly the design compromises to be making.
The geo metro isn't that far off from everything else in its day when it comes to build quality, better than comparable models that hadn't been refreshed in longer.
Contrast with, e.g., my stepmom's Jeep Grand Cherokee that was expensive and loaded with luxury features but had awful build quality and was constantly in the shop.
Other people can't fathom why people buy Android phones instead of Apple.
I agree on the low build quality, but one thing that I’ve noticed as well is the atrocious ride quality. Hitting a small speed bump results in a jarring shock for the passenger combined with a loud clunk from the car.
I thought it was the road until I road in a few Toyotas over the same road and the speed bump was a gentle rocking of the car.
Not sure if it’s just a consequence of the battery weight or what but it feels like I’m riding in pickup truck when I’m in a BYD
We hardly ever use gas for daily driving though and we had a few road trips in the US which made the good gas mileage and ability to use gas when needed oh so nice. But outside that and the mechanical reliability of it so far, everything about this car says "cheap". It definitely makes a more affordable BYD look attractive to me.
Oh, and my midsize pickup is averaging 122MPG as it's a PHEV. My ongoing costs for driving have been decimated by buying this thing.
Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to [map] you.
Of course there is a risk to allowing networked automobile sensor packages on your streets if they're feeding a potential adversary live info on everything going on on and around your roads. Denying this isn't virtuous or smart or benevolent, it is at the best naïve.
I think about my home city (6th largest in the US) with its singular interstate looping around our metro area - and Beijing has five of these ring roads on top of having a far more robust public transportation system and tons of scooter/bike usage still.
A single carmaker outselling all of US-made electric vehicles is just normal especially given the prices of these cars (down to something like $8000 USD) and the fact that they live in such dense areas that don't require you to drive 20 miles just to, for eg, get to a Costco or something. So you can have these ultracheap cars with maybe twice the range of lithium-powered electric golf cart and not spend a ton of money on it.
This used to be something only the US could do. China always had the population. But it wasnt rich enough to create local demand. Now it can and that creates a flywheel effect of feuling its own innovation, like EVs, LLMs, reusable rockets, sattelite ISPs, and all the other thingsthe US prides itself on.
And eventually it might even make novel things the US or anyone else hasnt even made yet. If that happens then the american empire is truly over
I'm pretty sure we're witnessing the accelerating confirmation of this right now, for all the reasons you've already stated. The US still has some niches at which it's ahead, but China is a mere intellectual property theft away from being able to pwn those areas as well (rightly, or likely wrongly, but even 'wrongly' by any law is 'rightly' by China's point of view, same as plenty of US decisions of late - the lens makes all the difference).
A lot of the very high-tech manufacturing in China is still dependent on Western supply chains (ASML is one major one for semi-conductors) and there's a level of complexity and specialized knowledge there that probably doesn't exist domestically yet so the transition to a knowledge-dominant vs manufacturing-dominant economy is hitting a logarithmic wall.
That said, China's intellectual property ecosystem is extremely open and free. This is really a cultural thing, embedded since the early days of China's printing press half a thousand years ago when editing, rewriting, and printing your own versions of someone elses's works was totally normalized (think AO3 but standardized and normalized at a societal level). So we'll get to see whether or not that business-friendly theory of 'IP exists to protect genius inventors and without it we have no inventions' governing theory bears out or if a completely permissive and free ecosystem is better for innovation in the longterm.
- A US and a China professor are talking in a bar. "We have about 10,000 students" they agree. But no, one is thinking of their university, the other of their department.
- Population of Wyoming < Louisville, KY (KY's largest city). Pop KY < NYC. Pop US Northeast region < Pearl River Delta megalopolis. PRD is sort of like a 20x compressed US Southeast, with 3x lower GDP.
For all the talk about data and technology sovereignty in Europe about USA tech, you would think they would take that more seriously too. Instead Europe is flooded with underpriced Chinese cars that they have no control over.
In fact that's my problem with all EVs because EVEN Lexus, Acura, and Genesis is not sticking to their premium quality when they release an EV version of their ICE cars. The Lexus ES ICE is legendary. The Lexus ES EV looks like a plastic coffin with 2 tablets. It's probably the zeigeist of car designs and/or my taste but I feel all EVs look the same without much personality. Not even mentioning the chinese brands because Geely, Leapmotor, BYD etc all look the same to me.
Say we have a Lexus LX 600 https://www.lexus.com/models/LX Why does this car can't be released as is, the same design and same interior but with an EV drivetrain?
Current era is SUV-look for almost literally every car (even the Mini has the 'Countryman' variant, which makes a mockery of the very name 'Mini'), so EVs have essentially followed that bland-ness to now be leading it.
Polestar's are the nicest looking EVs, outside of the high-level performance cars that are out of the practical range of normal people.
thats because there is zero demand as has been all over the news the past years. the european and especially german car industry wasted billions on EV strategies that now have to be rewound because it turns out there is basically zero demand for expensive EVs. people that can afford expensive cars want ICE.
The Lucid gravity is in the same discussion.
Lexus is releasing the TZ which is the equivalent to the TX gasser.
I think it's a huge regression vs. the goofy looking i3 (which is carbon fiber, has a working jog wheel, etc). The i4 is basically exactly a modern BMW sedan, but an EV. I think they moved to a platform that lets them just switch between ICE, hybrid and EV. You can even set the safety tone to make it sound like a BMW with tuned exhaust pipes.
Porsche Taycan.
I would encourage anyone that lives in America or Europe and hasn't been to China in the past five years to go see it for yourself. Take what western media writes with a grain of salt - you might be surprised.
I imagine it's just a fundamentally more palatable compromise for an ICE vehicle. You maybe bump the size of the fuel tank a bit and assume your clientele aren't going to be all that much more cost sensitive about fuel than they are about sticker price and maintenance.
What about the EV Genesis? I personally couldn't see the difference between the ICE and electrified G80.
Otherwise, what about the Taycan?
But you can get very good second hand ones for less than $70k; that should definitely fit OP's requirements.
I drive a Polestar 4, which stands up very nicely to any Lexus/Genesis/Acura. So does the Lucid.
Not to mention the Porsche Taycan. And the Macan EV is essentially the same as their ICE Macan.
Maybe you don't like EVs - that's fine. Everyone has their taste. After switching to an EV I'm never going back to an ICE car again.
Federal subsidies were eliminated. Funding for charging infrastructure and battery manufacturing was rolled back. ICE emission regulations were repealed. Individual states were barred from enforcing their own standards.
Most domestic manufacturers have given up on EVs entirely and written off their investments. Tesla is the only one standing, and their US sales have also been falling for the last couple years.
Looking back 2024 is probably going to be the peak of the US EV market.
I think that's the thing being pointed out...
We produce a lot of oil in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_extra...
> Federal subsidies were eliminated. Funding for charging infrastructure and battery manufacturing was rolled back.
These are both signs of a maturing market. It's a good thing that DCFC operators like Ionna, Walmart, etc. are still charging ahead at a pretty rapid pace, even without federal funding. Ionna especially has been deploying at a crazy speed.
> Individual states were barred from enforcing their own standards.
Litigation on this is still playing out. If car manufacturers aren't planning for these to swing back into force with a change of government, they are fooling themselves.
> Most domestic manufacturers have given up on EVs entirely and written off their investments.
Again, not true. Some investments like battery manufacturing, sure, but that's not what they were ever good at. GM has a pretty robust line of EVs, and Ford has bet big on their new platform underpinning on their new 'affordable' truck.
> Tesla is the only one standing, and their US sales have also been falling for the last couple years.
2023 was a stand out year for them, but it's not like they are falling off a cliff. We should expect Tesla sales to fall as other competitors like Rivian, Hyundai/Kia and even Toyota/Subaru release updated offerings.
Hmm. 16 million cars sold in the US each year. 1.2 million EVs sold each year. "Maturing" at less than 8% market share is not a good sign.
> Litigation on this is still playing out...these to swing back into force with a change of government
Have you not lived in the US, like ever? It will take anywhere from approximately a decade to never to claw back even a fraction of an progressive legislation or regulation.
> We should expect Tesla sales to fall...when [vague new things come out]
Falling sales is sign of market maturity?
Every once in a while people ask about cost and discover that for most people charging in your garage is significantly cheaper than anything else and charging on the road is still cheaper than gas and while it does take longer it's not too bad.
And as was pointed out, there is every reason to believe that there'll be a change in administration in the federal level in a few years. And once again, the rules will change. The car manufacturers are going to keep building what they know and have good investments in. But they're going to keep investing in EVs both because in the world they're important players and also because they know the government will change and with it their rules and they don't want to be left behind.
Get in your car, drive up to a few hundred miles. Dive home. Repeat. Never stop for fuel ever. That is what EV life is like for many people. I think most people.
If you live in an urban area and want to charge an EV, it can be quite a pain
Though honestly, in urban cities, we don't need to add more chargers, we need to add good public transit.
And I do normally use public transit, so the primary reason I have a car is for out of town trips where I’d need to charge away from home.
I’d love to have an EV but I just can’t make it make sense.
If we incentivized parking structure owners to install chargers, it would be a different situation
Here is our EV life:
Need to go to San Francisco (~90 min away, no good place to charge there so need to get back too). Can we make it? Mild panic. No, we can't.
Drive to a fast charger place nearby. Spend 45 minutes charging, bored with nothing to do. We were on time but now we're very late. Child is grumpy because we'll miss the start of the event (this is for watching Fleet Week last month). Finally get going, got there late due to time wasted charging, missed a few planes.
Coming home in the evening, battery is at 30% with half hour to go, partner is panicking. Will we make it? Maybe? Do we detour to a fast charger found on the map? Yes! No, maybe we'll be ok. Rather not stop in some dark sketchy place to charge for 30+ minutes. Let's hope for the best and keep going. Got home with ~10% left, stress on high alert.
Maybe some people like the adrelanine rush of this kind of stress on every road trip, but it's not for me.
All the gas cars I've ever had, if I did a few gallons of gas, would only take a few minutes. Overall, the cost savings is worth having an EV, but charging time is a major downside. We need to stop blaming people for the downside of the technology.
The charge time is a downside, but it's not like (particularly in San Francisco) there isn't an abundance of options that will give you 90+ miles in 5 minutes.
But further, in that 100 mile radius, there's EV chargers literally ever 10 miles or more on all major roads.
Because the charge curve on basically all EVs starts high at a low state of charge, there's basically no reason he'd have to wait more that 5 or 10 minutes at a stop to continue on his trip. 45 minutes is absurd.
I say this as someone that lives in Idaho and makes 6 hour road trips relatively regularly. Even on my longest "without charger" stretches, the wait is roughly 20 minutes to get enough to get to the next charger.
Not sure what you're saying, there are places to charge, but it takes a long while. That's what caused the big delay in the trip.
> there's EV chargers literally every 10 miles or less on all major roads.
Right. There is no lack of available chargers on the way. The issue is having to stop and wait a long while.
We don't have a tesla, but charge at the tesla fast charger station near the house, they work for our car. Took 45 minutes to bring the charge up enough for a round trip to SF.
> Because the charge curve on basically all EVs starts high at a low state of charge, there's basically no reason he'd have to wait more that 5 or 10 minutes at a stop to continue on his trip. 45 minutes is absurd.
Amusing when people are so confidently wrong. That's exactly how long it took to charge. Not to a 100%, but enough to be able to do a round trip to SF.
Agreed. Yes, we could plan better around the limitations of an EV.
But does every small road trip really need to revolve around planning to meet the needs of the car?
Yes, and no.
Yes, we definitely could have planned better the night before that we're taking the EV so we could've driven to the nearby fast charger and wait those 45 minutes then, to be ready to go in the morning. This is undeniably true.
But also, it is an EV issue.
If we had taken the gas car and noticed in the morning that the tank was almost empty, we could've done a quick 3 minute stop at the gas station which is on the same street we'd drive on anyway (no detour) and that's that.
No, none compatible with the plans anyway. We were going to an event, and had pre-purchased parking at a parking garage near the event. That's where the car was going to be all day. The garage does not have EV chargers available for our use.
pebcak issue
Where did you read that? Not in my post.
But the market isn't mature. It COULD be the sign of a maturing market, or it COULD be the sign of politicians that take large sums of money from oil companies gaining power and gutting subsidies.
>Again, not true. Some investments like battery manufacturing, sure, but that's not what they were ever good at. GM has a pretty robust line of EVs, and Ford has bet big on their new platform underpinning on their new 'affordable' truck.
Ford has GREATLY reduced their EV plans. How's that EV Explorer coming along? Right, scrapped. The F-150 is scrapped, the maverick-esque platform will likely find a lukewarm response followed by further contractsion. It will be double the price of a slate, and nowhere near as nice as the Rivian.
I wonder when will oil companies reach the point of a maturing market... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/sep/09/fossil-f...
> These are both signs of a maturing market.
I sure can't wait for oil extraction and farming to become mature markets, so we can eliminate those subsidies too! /s
Their new one is very interesting. I wanted an electric truck when I bought my most recent one but just couldn't afford it. If it's 30k for the base, figure 40k with bells and whistles. That makes it super attainable with a decent trade.
We’re going to see a repeat of Maverick with inflated prices which will kill the demand.
Our lucky streak as America—Russia blowing itself up, China going wolf warrior right when they needed to build alliances—may continue in our wannabe fascist being so fucking stupid.
You are decidedly not on a lucky streak.
Your Dear Leader just threw the US into yet another incompetently waged war on the other side of the world, he tore apart bridges with virtually all allies the US had, including Canada of all places, his reckless usage of his powers to influence corporate decisions (i.e. the ICC sanctions and DoD/Musk throttling Starlink/Starshield for Ukraine) made everyone realize they need their own alternatives not beholden to the US for literally anything, the AI bubble growing uncontrollably while the QE money injections never got taken out of the system is setting you up for a financial disaster that will make 2007 look tame...
Agreed, but my point still stands - they are the ones who sent America off to its probably most consequential bad luck streak in centuries.
> it was a failure of democracy: not enough people showed up to vote and many who voted were poorly informed.
Oh hell no. They chose to fall for the anti-trans and anti-immigrant rhetoric. They voted for Trump because Trump promised to make "the others" suffer. The entire operating principle of the GOP and especially its Evangelical wing has been "the suffering is the point" for decades.
Bear in mind that Harris was playing the "the economy is fine!" angle, which it technically was as far as GDP and the stock markets. But that ignored the fact that for millions it was not so great.
My point about "not enough people showed up to vote" as aimed at the youth vote who is apathetic about such things, and more importantly, a lot of crucial voters who were angry about the situation in Gaza. The irony on that last point is that Harris was absolutely the lesser of two evils in that regard.
I think a majority of voters vote based on their emotions, how their parents voted, or a specific manner of "what's in it for me". I have tempered faith in the electorate as a whole.
And Trump, ironically, is falling into the same trap. Without AI and its wash trading the economy would be in a deep recession, but the stonk markets do not reflect that reality.
I wonder whether Trump has long-recognised the decline of the US, and is planning for his legacy to be setting up his family well enough to be able to move to wherever else in the world opportunity presents itself (or where oligarchies would appreciate their contributions - after all, "there's always another oligarchy"). Essentially both shorting the US and forcing the downfall to occur (and making the progress of its occurrence faster).
I'm interested to see the Trump family's reactions to the inevitable disenfrachisement that the real, long-term outcomes of this will manifest.
They didn’t put money to rip out existing infrastructure and funding (let’s not give them ideas). It’s future EV charging growth and maintenance that will be affected, and its impact will be felt years from now.
A couple more Middle East wars from Republicans and the resulting gas prices will help push electrification forward. semi-/s
peak ever? no way. you can only think that if you havent been paying attention at all as to whats going on in the rest of the world. The EV transition is assured, the only variable is how long it takes a market to realize. The US can only resist gravity for so long.
In my opinion, the core concept is simple: China is a big market that's getting wealthier and BYD makes cheap and innovative cars.
Owning a vehicle is going from a luxury for wealthy people in China to a more every-day thing, driving huge volumes. Meanwhile the rest of the world (US excluded for now) is trying to electrify personal transportation, and China is meeting that demand better than any other country.
https://financeliterate.blog/can-fender-bender-total-car-ins...
It would seem that a replacement entire car may be more economical than fixing anything. Like printers, buying a new one is cheaper than replacing the ink in the old one.
All manufacturing is moving this way, not even intentionally, but as a by-product of process efficiency.
Whilst Tesla is probably leading the way for car manufacture in the US, the other car companies are probably similar. EVs are also greatly helped in this by having far fewer moving parts, and so they're either more 'modular' or almost entirely monolithic. Makes for interesting hypotheticals about 'replacement' vs 'fix' into the future and manufacturing for 'ease of recycling/reclaiming'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0CmwEJwaz8
It basically started in the 70s with the outsourcing of manufacturing to China, and the short term thinking and naivete (hubris?) that China would not do anything and everything to use this to their global strategic advantage. Sure, lots of US executives made _mother-fucking bank_ but the massive amounts of money they made was essentially for the sale of US dominance to China over the course of 50 years. They can say "I got mine" though, which seems to be current zeitgeist.
China wins because playing the long game wins - or having X billion expendable population under a dictatorship wins - possibly/probably the combination of both.
The US economy has basically been taken over by venture capital and they're milking all the assets and value that they can. It's all short term thinking. Hype economy so the rich can cash out.
The electrification of cars is inevitable. Not in a small part because EVs can be made much more cheaply than ICE cars, which are mechanically complex. EVs also need little to no maintenance (except for consumables like tires, brakes and shock absorbers) which saves you at least $1200 a year alone.
Last but not least is that we'll see standardization of car components in a few years which will lead to lower prices, greater innovation and an almost limitless availability of parts. Electric motors, motor controllers, chargers and batteries will become interchangeable between brands and makes.