U.S. October PPI Rises 6.5% YoY, Highest in Nearly Four Years

1 points by moonypto ↗ HN
U.S. producer prices rose 6.5% YoY in October, the highest since November 2022, below expectations of 6.6% and up from 6.3% previously. PPI increased 0.3% MoM, below the expected 0.4%, while September’s reading was revised up from 1.3% to 1.4%.

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Is the theory still sound for raising rates to control inflation under these circumstances? Not completely unsound, but I think less effective when inflation is driven by energy prices, than when the inflation is driven more by financialization.
It's a great question. The Fed cannot print more oil, and so any efforts to reduce energy inflation with interest rates is going to be futile. Fiscal policy must step in (Congress) to both stabilize the oil market and accelerate our transition off of oil (which would prevent energy inflation in the future, EVs, batteries, enough sunlight hits the Earth every 30 minutes to power humanity for a year, etc, etc).

Fundamentally, due to structural demographics, we have arrived at a capital shortage period after a long capital surplus period [1]; there will be, for long into the future, more projects chasing a shrinking supply of capital. This will continue to push interest rates up, which will also drive asset prices down (real estate, private equity, etc) [2].

Tangentially, about a year ago, I predicted that the Fed could beat on the economy all it wants with higher rates and this would not cause mass unemployment, because the world is rapidly aging and how fast workers are retiring out of the labor force [3]. This thesis appears to have been proven accurate, but more time is required to make the thesis more durable.

[1] https://www.apollo.com/wealth/insights-news/insights/daily-s...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50329344

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44392820

It's not sound no, and never really was given how doggedly the policy has been stuck to. The policy amounts to handing out wadges of cash to people with money, then ignoring that bit and hoping the hardship suffered by those that need to borrow will offset the activity of the people with interest income. At best, it's weak sauce compared to actual fiscal policy.
The Fed can control inflation through demand destruction. Tank the economy and throw enough people out of work so people buy less and inflation goes down.

It's like chemotherapy: it works, but it destroys so much of the rest of your body in the meantime that sometimes you wonder if the pain is worth the gain.

Trump & Congress have access to much less painful means to lower inflation, but they've refused to act.

> Trump & Congress have access to much less painful means to lower inflation, but they've refused to act.

Elaborate?

Do you mean raising taxes and cutting spending?

Not OP, but some inflationary pressures were self-inflicted by the executive, and therefore can be reversed.

The levers they can pull include using diplomacy to end of the stalemate at the strait of Hormuz that is increasing energy and shipping costs. Scrapping excessive import taxes (tariffs) inflicted since "Freedom day" could help some, though prices have a ratcheting effect and retailers are likely to pocket the difference to pad their profits.

Trump & most of Congress have no idea how the world works as they chose willful ignorance and fail up thanks to post-WW2 demand for American goods as the rest of the world was a crater

50+ year olds have done little more than take STEM research generated in the pre-1950s late 1800s era of science and copy the knowledge to computers; no net new physical science has come out of the last 50 years; it's all just carrying on nuclear, relativity, electromagnetism research conducted in the pre-1950s era; leadership is a bunch of know nothing American philosophers.

They noodle tiny decimals of percents such the financial network effects make them richer.

That’s work to them. Zero meaningful contribution. They're TV personalities who offer nothing more to humanity.

Despite the obvious big picture trend all this science and tech existed even if in just rudimentary form when they were in Sunday school; they truly believe they're a divine people lucking into existence and responsible for human progress; 100ish million truly insane lead gas fume huffing, post war/cold war paranoid people control American economy and politics

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There are two big levers the government has to control inflation: monetary policy and fiscal policy.

Monetary policy is where the central bank changes rates. This is effective to a point. It defuses a lot of zero-interest nonsense but the primary idea was to cool the business sector by making borrowing more expensive. Thing is, we don't really do that anymore. We don't borrow a bunch of money to build a factory to make widgets. No, we simply financialize everything. Yes, we have a ton of AI debt now but (IMHO) it's not productive output. The big product and promise of AI is labor displacement. That's going to destroy the economy.

Private equity technically borrows money but usually only temporarily. The target gets bought, restructured, a loan is taken out against the assets to pay back to investors and the corpse is spun out before the debt explodes. The problem? The market seems to be wising up to this bargain and these husks need to be kept on the books longer than desired. PE firms are having to borrow to refinance. That's another house of cards in all of this.

But what really fuels PE and all of this? Real estate. Hoarding land has become the best performing asset.

So the second lever the government has is fiscal policy, specifically taxation. Prior to the pandemic, a lot of companies were afraid to raising prices too much as they'd lose market share. An energy crisis triggered a fundamental change in corporate attitudes to raising prices and we've had a ton of raising prices simply to maintain profits or in anticipation of inflation. Pepsi now is in deep trouble because they've discovered that people don't want to pay $8 for corn chips and Walmart's generic brand is $5 and probably made by the same factory.

In the wake of the pandemic some countries introduced a windfall profits tax. Basically, predatory price-raising should be punished with at least a form of wealth redistribution. These measures were few and far between however.

As an example, because of 2020 energy crisis (caused by Trump) and Russia's invasion of Ukraine, Europe has been in a deep energy crisis for years with no end in sight. Many European governments have tried to protect consumers by subsidizing electricity. Well, these energy providers are making record profits. Why aren't they taxing the back end to pay for those subsidies? Instead, we just have a massive wealth transfer from European governments to (often private) utilities and gas producers.

But fiscal policy, particularly in the US, never gets discussed int his way. We could solve so many problems by simply having a 50% corporate tax rate. The standard objection is "they'll move overseas". Well, you can't move land overseas, particularly mines and oil wells. And the IRS is capable of tackling transfer pricing and profit shifting. Well, they would be if they weren't deliberately starved by successive governments. And if all else fails, punish companies for moving overseas with tariffs. That's what they're actually for.

So, back to your question, no, I don't think the theory is sound because we have a malignant tumor at the heart of our economy, which is land-hoarding.

Classically this is true with regards to Monetary policy, but didn't this fall to the wayside when they set required deposit rates to 0% in 2020, and haven't implemented appropriately sound measures for an appropriate reserve requirement system (Basel3) thus doing away with fractional reserve to full on money-printing.

My reading of the 1000+pg Basel3 document from BiS seems to point to the weighted risk categories being fundamentally flawed (relating to valuation for those risk weighted categories, not unsurprising given the subjective value of assets), not to mention the indirect business flaws that limit new banks potentially growing the number of GSIBs, leading to concentration of risk through sieving.

AI debt seems to be supercharging the indirect stagflation indicators which started showing up a few years ago.

Most empire's above a certain size inevitably run into internal conflict from land-use issues related to rentseeking and monopoly.

> Fed rates and bond market rates going up.

For anyone confused how the fed rate could go up without a fed meeting; it cannot. The above is shorthand for market predictions of the fed rate going up.

> anyone confused how the fed rate could go up without a fed meeting; it cannot

Finance being finance, the jargon around this is fucked.

The federal funds rate–"the interest rate at which depository institutions trade federal funds (balances held at Federal Reserve Banks) with each other overnight"–is set by the market [1]. (Well, by banks. But among themselves.)

The FOMC "meets eight times a year to determine the federal funds target range." The FOMC then directs the buying and selling of securities–usually Treasuries–to encourage that market rate into their range. (The FOMC is "composed of the seven members of the Federal Reserve Board and five of the twelve Federal Reserve Bank presidents" [2]. It's a superset of the Board of Governors.)

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FEDFUNDS

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_of_the_Federal_Reser...

[delayed]
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/bonds/09/bond-market-i... ("Rising inflation reduces a bond’s purchasing power, often leading to higher interest rates and impacting bond prices and yields.")

https://www.pimco.com/us/en/resources/education/bonds-102-in... ("Apart from purchasing power, inflation can influence bonds in another way. When inflation rises above a certain level, interest rates also tend to rise as central banks try to put pressure on consumers to reduce spending. In response, bond prices fall which can reduce their total return.")

> The second link is current prediction for fed rate changes, which doesn't help anyone understand changes from this PPI report, and the last link is the yield curve, which just shows that long term rates are higher than short term rates (generally seen as indicative there's no near term recession risk).

The second link predicts forward interest rate changes by the Fed based on underlying futures contract market activity, activity that is driven by...released inflation data impacting market participant activity.

Understanding the CME Group FedWatch Tool Methodology - https://www.cmegroup.com/articles/2023/understanding-the-cme... - January 24th, 2025

System: "Economic data and indicators -> Market impact -> Forecasts based on market changes -> Fed decisions and announcements"

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But the U:S. needs to keep energy prices up to teach the damn Euros and Chinks and Japs a lesson and keep them dependent.

No problem if the own economy tanks, too, as long as the stock market is still far up and overvalued compared to 2024 even after the crashes.

The U.S. has a bullshit economy running on fake assets like Bitcoin, AI and propping it up by military power is failing now, too.

I hate that they always say "highest" in X years. It's worse when they're like .. its the highest in 19 months or something inane like that.
Highest since Covid is pretty significant. We saw massive price increases during Covid.
We really need to reduce the fiscal/govt budget deficit. It's basically printing trillions per year, and as confidence in the soundness of the USD decreases, demanded interest rates rise, and increase the deficit further. The interest payments are already larger than the defense budget, about $1T/yr. It's an emergency at this point. The old method of raising interest rates to cool inflation isn't effective anymore with this sort of fiscal deficit, because it increases the interest payments, and effectively increases the rate of money printing, counteracting the effect of the decrease in private credit creation.
Don't worry, with Democrats coming into office they'll reduce the deficit. All while Republicans shout and scream about the deficit being an emergency. Then Republicans will get back into power, enact massive tax cuts and balloon the deficit again.
There's no chance the Democrats will reduce the deficit. It's been growing almost unbounded since 2000 regardless of who was in power.
I'm not sure either party tries especially hard to reduce spending. Clinton was strong-armed into abandoning expensive social programs in his first term and had a hell of a good bubble economy paired with a pre-Norquist tax regime and a post-base-closure budget to reduce the deficit in his second term.

I would say "look at the numbers," but the 2008 housing crisis and the 2020 pandemic really don't make for easy comparisons.

But by a first order of approximation, I fear your statement is correct. Tax cuts sometimes goose the economy but always increase the deficit. Democrats sometimes advocate for tax cuts, but Republicans always do, regardless of the current macro-economic climate.

As someone else pointed out they will increase the deficit (over the baseline expectation) as they did before under Obama and Biden.

They might partially repeal tax cuts, but if they expand social security and medicare then the deficit will increase dramatically. Don't expect any of the recently elected senators to do the fiscally responsible thing when Social Security is insolvent in 2032.

The only way to fix the budget is to fix the medical system, and that doesn't mean enacting more schemes to figure out how to pay the absurd costs, it means destroying the cost side by applying long standing anti-trust law to the entire system.
Let's do that, but also let's tax the rich.
Funny. They used to say the only way to fix the budget is to stop spending less on defense.

Now that is the number three or four. Depending on how you count, we're going for the actual number one, which is unfunded Medicare.

Unfortunately, the second highest expense now is interest on the debt accrued.

But if we committed to reducing the deficit, we wouldn't be able to give tax breaks to AI Data Centers, Bomb Iran or subsidize our private health care system.
There are two ways out of debt, you either pay it down or you inflate away the value of old debt. It seems like we are hurtling towards 2.
The thing is that "inflating it away" isn't a serious long-term proposal. Suppose we were do something drastic, like target 6% intentional inflation, obviously nobody would buy bonds at 6% anymore, they'd demand at minimum 12% (because they'd lose 6% of it due to inflation). Once they demanded 12% the interest payments would shoot up, and then the amount we'd need to inflate would again spiral up. The spiral runs away, there's no secret cheat to a free lunch.
You will find no-one who argues that our government is serious about the debt or how to pay for the unfunded programs like Medicare and Social Security.
But there's also new debt being taken out, at inflated price levels.
Don't worry, at least every American will be a millionaire now. American dream.
> We really need to reduce the fiscal/govt budget deficit. It's basically printing trillions per year […]

That's not how money is created:

* https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/explainers/how-is-money-crea...

When governments (or anyone) wants to sell bonds, the money has to already exist 'in the wild'. The selling of government bonds does not create new money/currency. The pool(s) of money is already out there, and when bonds are offered, the people who control the pool(s) decide whether to buy or not.

(This isn't to deny that government deficits/debt needs to be at reasonable levels.)

I was being imprecise, it's not literally making up the entire deficit with new money, though the Federal Reserve's securities did increase by $200B over the past year, and M2 money supply increased by $1.2T. A lot of the deficit is inflationary in that it adds to the financial balance sheets of the private sector, even when financed by bonds sold to non-banks. It pushes up aggregate demand even when it doesn't increase the money supply. When aggregate supply can't keep up, you get inflation.
Which party is fiscally responsible?

Seems pretty clear historically

The deficit is now about $400 billion per month. This is going to end in tears.
The Republicans enacted starv the beast policy starting in the 80s with the plan of making debt/government unsustainable in the long term. What you are describing is the result of planned Republican policy.
PPI?...
I wasn't familiar with it either. Here's a good reuters article on it: https://www.reuters.com/business/us-producer-prices-rise-fur...

> US producer prices rose moderately in October, but inflation at the factory gate posted its largest annual gain in four years, supporting the view that the Federal Reserve could continue raising interest rates after next month's widely expected increase.

> Despite the better-than-expected monthly reading reported by the Labor Department on Friday, there were more signs of inflation broadening out beyond energy goods, with food prices increasing by the most in eight months as expensive diesel raised transportation costs. Prices of goods excluding food and energy logged their biggest gain since May.

> U.S. producer prices rose 6.5% YoY in October,

First line of the submission btw.

Isn't that something that you could research? Or not respond? It's getting Reddity on here (admittedly me too with a snarky comment)
Broken record, but don't lose sight of how we got here. Covid caused massive inflation because of the supply shock and all the money giveaways, mostly to businesses (i.e., wealthier Americans where the wealthier the person the more money they were given, no strings attached).

People blame Biden (and Trump) for that, amongst other things related to Covid, so what do they do? Vote the party into power that loves nothing more than tax cuts so they do what they do and cut taxes aggressively on those same people who benefitted the most from Covid inflation (i.e., the wealthy) when almost all of their net worths have gone through the roof, which is precisely when you can raise taxes to account for the over-aggressive Covid handouts.

And even after all of that, when it looked likely the US was actually getting inflation under control, the same party doesn't put up any fight against its leader who rams through nonsensical tariffs and then starts a war that obviously will (and does) spike the price of the great elixir of growth, a material increase in the price of pretty much everything produced on earth.

As I said when the election happened, people finally woke up, but I just gotta say you cannot hate the politicians enough who caused all of this. Oh, and now we have the party that doesn't know how to balance a checkbook coming into (some) power to further exacerbate the whole thing (and thank god they are because the other guys are straight up crooks, but, man, if this doesn't end poorly there's no justice in the world (and I say that not in some gleeful way, but shouldn't there be some repercussions for the absolute idiocy we've seen these past 6 years or so?)).

Sorry for ranting. I just am so so mad because when you say "who is responsible for this?" people either raise their hands and say "wasn't me!" or, worse, point at the person next to or across the aisle from them. Maybe the silver lining is we're all responsible because we just stick our heads in the sand and let this go on (though, again thank god the election shows at least a little bit of a comeuppance. That's not a partisan comment if you can believe it!).

> Oh, and now we have the party that doesn't know how to balance a checkbook coming into (some) power to further exacerbate the whole thing

After the Big Beautiful Bill, I think that "the party that doesn't know how to balance a checkbook" may have switched sides. (I mean, the Democrats didn't learn how, but the Republicans drastically forgot.)

You're totally right, of course. I wrote it in an attempt to "both sides" it but that one line caused the rest of what I wrote to be completely discounted. To double down on the comment about democrats, though, there's obviously a lot of conversation about increasing spending (e.g., Medicare for All and less-tectonic items like reintroducing health care subsidies) and with Trump in the White House nothing is going to happen on the increasing revenue side of things and so we have at least another two years of both rampant spending, and continued giveaways to those who can afford to give (some of it) back, a cocktail for even more inflation.
Is it okay to post something like this without a source link?
Just wanted to thank everyone for not making snarky jokes about bitcoin.
Well, yeah.

That's what happens when you put a person with no concept of what economic restraint is in the Oval Office and let him run the country like his own business ventures, which included a casino that went into bankruptcy. The nearly recession-proof business model could not weather his management style. And of course, he claimed a tax credit he didn't deserve on the write-off of said casino, just like many of his ilk have over the last generation or two, which has contributed to deficit spending, which in turn has been "dealt with" by quantitive easing (read: the Fed printing money backed by nothing).

It's been a f*cking decade of this guy. How are people still surprised that this is the outcome? And when are we going to legally do something decisive about it? I watched my late 20s and early 30s get fed through an economic shredder by this clown. Life milestones are passing my generation by.

Republicans want this. It fits their starve the beast policy. Intentionaly enact mechanisms to force smaller government, even if that requires putting the country in so much debt it is broke and broken, they don't case because the end result is smaller government.
TLDR ... it's the oil price again.
Fundamentally this is a result of wealth accumulation. It is at an all-time high larger than that of the robber baron era. At this point printing money, raising interest rates, quantitative easing (also known as transferring wealth to the wealthy class) can no longer kick the can down the road. Regular populace has been squeezed to the max and system is starting to buckle.