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Is learning a framework harder than to learn programming?

6 points by nicolasd ↗ HN
I learned C/C++, Java, SQL and know how most common patterns work.

But I've never really used a framework before and a few months ago I wanted to work with rails. But for me it was harder than learning about 4 star pointers or something like that.

Especially if you programmed nearly everything before by yourself it's hard to get comfort with the "magic" behind rails.

I tried to create some small webapps with rails to get in touch with it, but to be honest: without Ryan Bates awesome railscasts I can't write a single line of code!

How did you learn to work with frameworks like rails or django? Is learning a framework harder than learning programming?

8 comments

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Millennium
Is Rails really all you're learning? From your post, it sounds like you're also learning Ruby, which is a very different language from the ones you list: the syntax and common idioms differ, of course, but in some ways the paradigm also differs. Django wouldn't be any easier, because and the things I said about Ruby apply to Python as well.

End result: in your particular case, "learning the framework" and "learning to program" amount to basically the same thing. What makes it harder this time, as opposed to the first time you learned to program, is that last time you had no preconceived notions. Now you do -that's inevitable- but only some of those notions will apply in this new way of programming. This would be just as true if you went in the other direction; you haven't learned things in the "wrong" order or anything like that. A "wrong" order probably doesn't even exist.

The good news is that you're not alone. This happens to everyone when they first hit something wildly different from the way they first learned to program. As you do more of them, it gets easier, but the first big wall is always a shock. Good luck getting over the wall.

nicolasd
Thank you, I always thought that learning frameworks shouldn't be hard for programmers and was uncertain about my skills. But it's good to see, that I'm not the only one, so I have hope ;)
govindreddy
yes indeed.No where and nobody explains magic behind frameworks.I agree that it is very difficult to learn framework.I think many develops their apps without many things without any understanding.
noptic
It really depends on the frameworks documentation.

It does not matter if you want to learn framework a language or how to use a products API.

What really matters is if there is a good a documentation and some tutorials to get you started.

I often settle for the sollution with less features but a better usabilty.

redspark
Have you studied the documentation for rails and how/why it does things the way it does. Have you become proficient with Ruby?

Trying to learn an MVC framework without understanding the underlying architecture is definitely a large task. Trying to do that without a firm understanding of the nuances of the programming language used is even harder.

dutchrapley
It depends on context. If you have never built a web application, it can be very difficult task grasping what exactly Rails does for you (even it your are experienced in programming languages). For someone who has been building web applications for years, the it may be easier for that person to understand the pain points that Rails solves. Since Rails is domain specific to web development, you're not necessarily learning programming, but really how to apply programming to web development based on the framework's conventions. The bottom line is that you're learning something new. How hard the learning is depends on the foundation you're currently have that you can build upon. Having a foundation in a programming language doesn't necessarily mean that you're poised get up and running quickly with a web framework if you've never done web development.

The art of building web applications today, in itself, is much more complex than it was 10 years ago - mostly due to the every growing selection of tools that make it easier for experienced developers to build web applications. This in turn can make web development seem daunting.

Personally, when I started learning Rails, I had a foundation of working with rudimentary frameworks in other languages. When I discovered Rails, it did quiet a bit of what those other frameworks accomplished and then some. Then it took it further and pushed the envelope (i.e. REST support for urls and routing, more recently including CoffeeScript and the Asset Pipeline).

While there's a ton of learning resources out there for learning Rails, it can be really hard to put them together and figure out what in what order you need to learn new concepts.

That being said, I think The Flatiron School did an excellent job getting together a list of learning resources: http://prework.flatironschool.com/ - Just a heads up that it recommends CodeSchool and Tree house which are subscription services. If you're serious about learning, I'd consider the subscription cost to be a small investment.

The one resource that Flatiron Prework didn't mention is the Rails Tuturial: http://ruby.railstutorial.org/ruby-on-rails-tutorial-book

If you really want to dive into ruby, I'd recommend The Well Ground Rubyist by David Black.

nicolasd
Thank you for the links. I know Michael Hartl's ruby on rails tutorial, and it's nice written, but when I read programming books and come to parts like data-structures, then I think - "Oh no, I already know that stuff" and skip this part. But in this section you really learn about string handling… I probably should just read everything and keep on learning..
dutchrapley
Very true. While you may know about strings, integers, floats, and arrays, it's always good to read about them in the context of a new language you're learning. The Well Grounded Rubyist is riddled with useful tidbits. The predecessor to that book was Ruby for Rails (also by David Black). Each time I read the book, I picked up new information, even the third time around.

When we learn, we learn by applying new material to what we already know. Hence foundations and context. When you read, especially something like a book on programming, you're not going to absorb it all. Also, programming books shouldn't be treated as one and done reading. Each time you read, I guarantee something will pop out based on previously acquired knowledge.