Ask HN: Which developer laptop should I buy?
Hey HN,
I am looking to buy a new laptop. My primary OS will be ubuntu. Which laptop would you guys recommend? My main criteria is that it should be light and work without any hiccups with ubuntu.
I've been looking around and it seems a lot of developers prefer Lenovo X220. The new carbon X1 looks good too. Does anyone have any experience with them?
Has anyone tried running Ubuntu (dual boot or otherwise) on a Macbook Air? Does it work without any issues?
Any of the new touchscreen laptops worth checking out?
My budget is around a 1000$ but I wouldn't mind spending some more if it means getting the best machine.
Thanks for your suggestions!
114 comments
[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 164 ms ] threadWhen I ran ubuntu on my (relatively old, 2009) MBP earlier this (edit: last) year it was an OK experience, but the multitouch gestures weren't on a par with OS X. Battery life was fine, hardware support other than multitouch was also fine, sleep on lid close was great, etc. no problems.
I'd recommend an Air from your description, nice and light, and Apple make the best hardware by far, especially if you do have the $1000 it costs.
I was wondering why people choose to install Ubuntu when OS X is already a great UNIX? I genuinely want to know since I consider myself as being close to an intermidiate developer and find that OS X is great for all my UNIX needs and if there is a tool I'm missing, more than likely, homebrew already has it. So what am I really missing? Why do people install Ubuntu?
It's also open and you're able to change it, tinker with it, mold it. You actually know where everything is. It's generally a lot cleaner as well: Apple litters the entire filesystem with stuff you don't know where it came from, or what they affect.
I believe faster boot times are also a factor, some people can get their Linuxes to boot nearly instantaneous. Perhaps battery life as well.
I use OS X and am happy with it because I don't demand any of that to be productive/enjoy my system, but I can certainly enumerate things I don't like about it and would rather have the "native" FreeBSD approach or a Linuxy one.
Some OS X tools try to make up the difference (homebrew, like you said it), but like any race where you start behind you're not gonna win. Especially since the other competitors have decades of experience.
OS X is basically a tradeoff. Some people aren't willing to trade away too much, or have personal choices which are more important to them than to you or me.
That said, I'd try to get Linux running natively on a Mac if I had that inclination, not under Parallels or some other emulator. That just feels the opposite of "clean" to me.
I love OS X though. The thing I like about it is, yes it does have UNIX but it is also user friendly and has a ton of awesome apps and access to the Mac App Store.
No need to apologize for the ignorance you are seeking to dispel.
I've tried mac few times and always run back to (k)ubuntu. Its great hardware and its definitely better than windows, but all lowlevel "unix stuff" is not a match for ubuntu.
[edit: huh, look it's now x230...]
[1] https://www.archlinux.org/
Look here, BTW http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3719720
[1]: http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/X-Series-ThinkPad-Laptops/Faint-...
[2]: https://www.pcworld.com/article/237105/article.html
[3]: http://techtogeekz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/windows_8_...
I would not recommend it.
I should probably mention that it runs Arch Linux without issue.
The biggest question is how are you going to be using it? Mostly at a desk with an external monitor as well? On airplanes in coach? Any client presentations?
What I ordered earlier this year is a Lenovo T430 with the resolution bumped to 1600x900 ($+50) on a 14" screen; they now also have the T430s (slim) and T430u (ultrabook) which are both thinner and lighter. If you want larger, the T530 lets you go up to FHD (1920x1080) but at a significantly higher cost.
Looking briefly now, the T430u drawbacks include a limit of 8GB (probably a single slot), no mSATA or WWAN slot, and a display of 1366x768 with no choices. That last would've disqualified it for me immediately.
The T430s weighs a bit more and has more options, but also starts around $950 and that extra money really only buys you about 12 ounces less weight. I was looking hard at budget, so it also wasn't an option.
I'd recommend the T430 with a third-generation processor (specifically for HD4000 graphics). There's a nvidia option using Optimus, but I'm not sure how good it is under Linux (or whether it really buys you much performance). Bump the screen to 1600x900, bump the Wifi up to the 3x3 option (both things you can't really add later and which don't add that much to the cost). DO Add the fingerprint reader; smart cards and color sensors only if they fit your needs. Also add the backlit keyboard - you can't get it later, and when you need it it's really kind of nice to have. Also add Bluetooth up front. If you're ordering one, start with the lower model (not the "with Faster Processing" one), you can upgrade the CPU during the selection process but not downgrade it from the more expensive starting point. Starting from the lower model also lets you get Windows 7 (Home or Pro) instead of Windows 8 if you're going to keep Windows at all and don't like the Metro UI.
I stuck with the smallest HD and stock 4GB, adding another SODIMM to go to 12GB was dirt cheap, and I'm easily able to run KUbuntu in VMWare Player under Windows 7 Pro. You can replace the optical drive with a HD caddy for under $20 and have a second SATA III drive; you can add either WWAN -or- a mSATA drive (SATA II), there's some form of caching that can be set up with mSATA but I didn't bother. If you're going the full disconnected user route, you can add assorted battery options to get you up to (theoretically) 30 hours, 6-8 is easily feasible by just upgrading the stock battery - I haven't seen the "up to 9.7" with the 6-cell battery but I suspect that going to a SSD would be a big part of that.
After you get it, set up a power-on and hard drive password in the BIOS and configure the fingerprint reader under Windows to let you bypass those with a swipe. Throw on TrueCrypt and encrypt the entire drive as well.
One caveat with the newer ThinkPads, they did fiddle with the keyboard but it's still great. The big key I miss is the Menu key (right-click equivalent), but you can emulate it with Shift-F10 on Windows.
Physical keys that aren't present and workarounds: Context Menu/right-click = Shift-F10 Break = Fn-B SysRq = Fn-S ScrLk = Fn-C Pause = Fn-P
And finally the page/screen forward and back buttons were replaced and the pageup/pagedown buttons moved to be with the cursor keys.
When you're programming, you don't want to be held back by a bad and low resolution (anything below full HD) screen. Also, there are a number of positive reports of getting Linux going on both these models.
Lots of others with same issue on forums.
Asus refused to give it international warranty so I had to ship it back to the states from Israel, and now awaiting repair.
I think the touchscreens are just gimmicky toys. Useless to me. But since Intel soon won't let you call your thin laptop an "Ultrabook" unless you include one (and Windows 8), and non-developer consumers are obsessed with tablets and consuming Internet with their fingers, it's getting difficult to find new hardware without one.
I wrote about how I arrived at my choice, among others including the $1500 Dell XPS 13 Developer Edition (Includes Ubuntu), the $350 Asus Q201e (Includes Ubunutu), the $500 Asus Q200, the Samsung Chromebooks ($250/$550), and a $150 used Asus 1015PX Netbook: https://plus.google.com/106336989542410513415/posts/avV5eL1P...
I also considered momentarily the $900 ZaReason Ultralap 430 and the $670 System76 Lemur Ultra. I would have liked to support Linux-only vendors, but both at 14" were too big for my preferences. I tried an Asus 1025CE but the recent Atom CPUs require crappy proprietary video drivers from a Linux-unfriendly vendor, it was a mountain of pain to try to make it work.
One comment: If you buy a custom machine from Lenovo.com, ignore the lies they tell you about shipping dates and just assume it will take 30-45 days at least.
ThinkPad build quality is unrivaled. The keyboard is almost as nice as my HHKB. The hinges are rock solid. The keyboard has drainage ducts. Everything is designed to be serviced.
I haven't upgraded from 16GB to 32GB yet, but I like having the option!
My favorite thing is the removable CD/DVD bay, where you can stick in a hard drive caddy and put different 2.5" drives in there.
Nice for super-fast (internal SATA) backups to multiple drives. 500G of databases, video, etc. Or for installing an alternate O.S. - so if you want to try a BSD or Linux on its own root drive instead of a virtual machine, it's an easy way to swap out drives.
Also because they're so popular, parts are easily replaced. I typed-through the keyboard on my 2-year-old T400S, wearing the matte finish & letters off the keys, and it was only $40 to go to some random shop in Singapore and get them to put a brand new T400S keyboard on it.
Now for problems. Hopefuly some of these things were fixed in W530?
* Bezel is huge!
* Larger 170W power supply is very heavy, doesn't work in airplane power outlets. Smallish power cord often pops off.
* Installing Crucial M4 SSD for me has resulted in BSODs (on windows). Dual booted to linux mint 12 and that also corrupted. Google for SSD W520 BSOD. Eventually gave up and went back to stock HDD.
Having briefly owned (and subsequently returned a W520), I found the keyboard tolerable at best, and the trackpad was an utter disaster. I hear Lenovo build quality is not what it used to be back around the T61 days.
Most people who regard Lenovo quality as best of the best have never used a Panasonic Toughbook. Oh my God - the keyboard on a CF-53 is the best ever if you're a Vim fan. Also: Gobi-2000, 36" drop rating 6 times, something like 200+ lbs crush rating meaning you can stand/jump on it, you can run water through the keyboard without issue, pick it up by the carry handle and swing it around haphazardly, and has interesting BIOS functions like Concealed Mode, hardware on/off wireless switch, easy swappable hard drive. It is a TANK, and did I mention the haptic feedback on the keyboard is just incredible. Because the feeling doesn't get better than this. You cannot say the same about Lenovo.
That said I just picked up a System76 Bonobo Extreme, because it's such a pain dealing with my CF-53's 1366x768 resolution all the time, and I wanted a future proof workstation that confidently runs Linux. System76 maintains Debian packages to get the little things right. I think you need a higher res setup for long hours, and maybe a lower resolution machine for working on-the-go. If I could do it over again, I'd go with the Bonobo Extreme (17") for my main workstation, complimented with a Toughbook CF-C2 if I wanted lightweight, CF-53 if I could handle the bulk, or CF-19 top of the line w/ GPS if I had an extra $5,000 laying around. Haven't used the Bonobo Extreme yet, but I'm really anxious to see how well Ubuntu does when it gets commercial hardware support and a high performance GPU. At $2500 the BE wasn't cheap, but then again the only other machine I'd look for in that price range is an Apple, and their walled garden approach just kills me. Still I'd probably go with Apple over Lenovo even if I weren't a die hard Linux fan; I can deal with Linux in a VM. Would only deal with Lenovo as last resort.
It's tough alright. http://www.panasonic.com/business-solutions/marketing-materi...
No wonder they managed to fit a really good keyboard into a huge chassis like that.
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/12/10/samsung_840_pro_ss...
"The Samsung 840 Pro is a revolutionary SSD in terms of steady state performance, beating out the competition easily in our trace based testing. The low latency and high sequential speeds are among the best we have recorded. The power consumption figures prove that this SSD would be just as much at home in the latest Ultrabook as in an overclocked gaming rig."
My criteria when I buy a laptop is (in that order): 1. Does it reach the min acceptable resolution of 1600x900? 2. Does it have a Matte screen (non reflective)? 3. Will it run my editor, a web server, two databases, a few other server apps and daemons and Chrome with many tabs open including some heavy Javascript apps.
I've had the T530 for over a week now, and it doesn't disappoint. My only complaint at the moment is that the power supply is a 135W one and its very big. I'm looking into using my T61p power supply which is 90W (but same voltage), so that might solve it.
Having said all that, I was very much tempted by the new Ultrabooks, in particular the X1 Carbon and the Asus Zenbook but in the end resolution, matte and screen size won.
It's a lot zippier than I was expecting, and even the intel 3D was surprisingly quick.
My only real niggle is the trackpad - it seems to jump multiple pixels at a time under ubuntu, and feels very rough. I suspect pointer acceleration is being applied more than once, although I never use the trackpad so I've not investigated in any depth.
I recently bought a Toshiba Portege Z930, running Linux Mint 13. I just had to upgrade kernel to have it working without any problem (before I experienced some random freezes). I am very happy with it.
Cheers, Mat'.
There's a very good resource here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBook
I've recently installed freebsd (as the only OS, no dual boot) without any hickups what so ever. Full disclosure: It was an older macbook, about 4-5 years old, and I can't tell if it works for or against its chances of running Ubuntu.
I was surprised that it went about so easily, I must admit.
If wanted, I could write a blog post on my exact instructions, but all in all, you may need a tiny bit of OSX at hand to get the install going (seeing as a MacBook Air does not have a bootable device, such as a CD/DVD drive).
So in conclusion, Ubuntu on a MacBook Air should be very possible: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookAir4-2 with the only exception of Thunderbolt
The only thing I miss from Ubuntu in OSX is apt, but homebrew is functional if not as elegant.
My trackpad is very sensitive, prior to 12.10 I used the "multitouch" driver, which doesn't seem to be maintained (I got it from the mactel ppa [1]), so now I use the "synaptics" driver which seems to me more configurable but I haven't experimented much.
That said, I've gotten used to it and it's still a better trackpad than any non-Apple laptop I've used. I would like to find a good config for this laptop, though!
It tends to run quite hot. The battery still lasts over five hours, after more than two years daily, heavy use. That's impressive.
Edit: The only thing that was really cumbersome with Ubuntu on this was installation: I installed from USB and Apple makes that really difficult, as you can't boot off USB unless you're Apple. Instead, you have to partition the disk and flash the installation image to the disk (and you have to write it to one of the first few partitions, which I didn't at first).
[1]: https://launchpad.net/~mactel-support/+archive/ppa
Besides, unless you are doing something especially intensive; once you get past a certain threshold (decent screen,disk and RAM) the returns start to diminish. Is having a laptop that is half an lb lighter, has an i7 instead of an i5 or an nvidia GPU vs an intel GPU really going to help you ship rails applications faster?
Remember most professional code writing is going to be done on a full sized desktop with 2 or 3 screens - a laptop is a second machine is for when you are out and about.
Except for GPU performance, modern laptops are pretty much on-par with desktops. Laptops cost more, but people with desktops usually own laptops. Having two machines creates the annoyance of switching between them. It's small, but it's there. For most devs, it makes more sense to buy one really nice laptop instead of a nice desktop and a mid-range laptop.
My current set-up is an 11" Air that I connect to a 27" screen. If I want more real estate, I could buy another 27" display and chain it. It's stupidly fast: 2Ghz Core i7, 8GB of RAM, 256GB SSD.
Oh and while I enjoy using big screens, I find my most productive times are when I'm on a plane. The lack of distractions and the knowledge that I won't be interrupted for hours helps me stay focused.
I don't want to come across as insulting the intelligence of everyone who doesn't buy expensive laptops. The right combination of environment, mindset, and knowledge are worth more than any fancy hardware. When it comes to tools, use what you love and don't pay much attention to cost.
And whilst Mac airs and displays are nice "hand on heart" I could not justify the extra expense to an employer or the share holders (whose money it is) when compared to an equivalent PC and a cheapo laptop (shared between the team) for the times when I need to be mobile.
And the problem for going mac air only is that people will stereotype you as hipster wannabe if you not careful.
I have a high-end Latitude E65* without any issues, and a Thinkpad W530 that is also working well - both are running CrunchBang. I didn't encounter any software/Linux-specific issues on the Dell that weren't on the Thinkpad. The Thinkpad feels nicer, but it cost a lot more.
The system76 machine costs less than both (spec for spec), but I haven't used one. That said, they only build ubuntu machines - which might be right up your alley. If you want to save a little money, they have cheaper models in the 15.6" size too.
Had mine for a while now and it's the best laptop I've ever owned.
Amazing Linux support, light, and I seem to be able to keep dropping it with no ill effects.
I wanted an ultrabook-style machine, i5, 4gb of ram, no cd/dvd drive, ssd only (no hybrid), decent screen res (1080p s a bit too big, 1600x900 is spot on), and most importantly a great keyboard. The x1 carbon was the only machine I could find that matched my specs, it has the best laptop keyboard I have ever had the pleasure of typing on. Highly recommend.
EDIT: The X1C has the first trackpad that I actually enjoy using, I usually have trouble due to sweaty hands, but so far this trackpad hasn't had a single problem and I have been able to get multitouch gestures working via synaptics.
If I had to think of negatives it would be the lack of ethernet/vga/hdmi without adapters, but at least they use 'standard' adapters (display port->hdmi, usb->ethernet).
The X1 carbon is the first laptop where I enjoy using the trackpad. It is odd for me too. I still often use the trackpoint, but for scrolling around web pages I often end up using the trackpad (sometimes with the trackpoint buttons which are right above it).
Toshiba and Thinkpad seem to be the only vendors that seem to still include trackpoints.
The Lenovo X230. Downside: Only a 1366x768 screen.
The 13" Vaio S. Upside: Pretty much the lightest full-power 13.3" laptop, 1600x900 screen, a comfortable keyboard, $880. Downside: None? The screen is only pretty good, instead of being a high end, high color gamut screen? It lacks a Thinkpad keyboard. It has HDMI instead of DisplayPort. This is a good general purpose laptop.
The Lenovo T430s: The downsides relative to the 13" Vaio S is that it has a worse quality screen, it's slightly bigger at the same resolution, and has worse GPU, as if that even works on Ubuntu. The upside is that it has a Thinkpad keyboard and the DVD player can be replaced with a hard drive bay or battery, and it has a mini-DisplayPort port.
The 15" Vaio S: The lightest 15" laptop option in your price range, at 4.45 lbs. You can get a quad core processor (without VT-d support, though, and I'm not sure about staying under $1000), and it has a 1920x1080 IPS screen (with orange tint problems).
I'm told the Vaio S's work fine with Ubuntu. However, you should carefully check forums online to make sure of their hardware support.
If you want to consider ultrabooks, the X1 Carbon is worth checking out, but a version with 8 GB of RAM is expensive with marginal benefit compared to, say, the 13" Vaio S, or the ASUS UX31A for that matter.
I'm a fan of Thinkpad keyboards but if I had to own only one computer, it would be the 13" Vaio S, because of the GPU and better screen, and (to my subjective opinion) better size. If you don't care about GPU at all, and if you don't care about screen color or viewing angles that much, a T430s is a good bet. Both are below the threshold for me where descreasing the weight further doesn't matter.
Worst part is, I like it so much that I would buy one again (if I could get Windows 7) without hesitation.
Although the Carbon also support non-EUFI booting which made it easier, it shouldn't be that hard to get linux running with EUFI. What caused you trouble?
i payed about 1050 euro for my version
Both the Dell Latitude e6500 and the Lenovo Thinkpad T500/W500 are 15", high-end Core 2 Duo machines with WUXGA (1920x1200) screens. You can probably snag one on Ebay for $300-$400. Add in an SSD and max out the ram for another couple hundred dollars would be my suggestion.
That's the best developer machine short of a Retina MBP.
edit: updated Thinkpad models, added header.