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Zuckerberg Dilemma: I do the programming, but the guy w/ the idea gets 50%

8 points by matthewrnyc ↗ HN
I'm a Data Scientist at a large research lab. In my spare time, and to augment my work I develop Django+Python webapps.

I go to lots of Hackathons and regularly meet people with good ideas. We often bounce these ideas around a Google Doc and it gets to the point at which development must start. However, 99.9% of the time, the other person has no programming or technical knowledge whatsoever. They also want half the business, despite the fact that I'm the one doing all the work, pulling the long nights of coding in.

I call this the "Zuckerberg Dilemma" as its rather like Zuck and the Winklevoss twins. He did the development, they had the idea, then complained that he took it to develop by himself.

- Does anyone else have this problem?

- How did you deal with it?

- Is it illegal to just "walk off" with someone's idea?

22 comments

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pdabbadabba
It's not a fun situation, but there's an obvious answer: come to grips with the fact that the idea is valuable. More specifically, it is just as valuable as you and the rest of the world make it. Negotiate. If there is a project you really want to be involved in because the other person has a really great idea, then you should be prepared to let that person keep more of the company and, by the same token, accept a smaller share for your own work. Think of the opportunity to be involved at all as its own form of compensation. By contrast, of course, many ideas will be only somewhat interesting. In cases like that, it makes sense to value your time more highly in comparison to the idea and be prepared to walk away if the idea guy wants too big a piece of the pie.
rdouble
Just walk off with it.

Family, religion, friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business. --Montgomery Burns

mindcrime
They also want half the business, despite the fact that I'm the one doing all the work, pulling the long nights of coding in.

No, you aren't, not if you're planning to build a real business out of it. In addition to simply having "the idea" somebody has to talk to customers, solicit feedback, do market research, evaluate and establish pricing, develop a marketing strategy, write datasheets, whitepapers, blog entries, press-releases, etc., somebody has to talk to journalists and manage PR, somebody has to track down and woo investors (if you decide to seek outside money), somebody has to sell the damn thing to somebody, somebody has to do the legwork of tracking down partners, resellers, and possible "joint venture" participants, somebody has to file the legal paperwork to create a legal entity for your venture, open a bank account, get a DUNS number, get a EIN number, etc., and etc., etc., etc...

No, the programmer really is not doing "all the work". NOW, it may be the case that the erstwhile partner who is wanting to work with you can't (or won't) do all of the things listed above. Fine, in that case, if they can't code and they aren't putting in any money, don't work with them. But you should probably know whether or not they are a coder, or a legitimate "business person" (as opposed to "Just an idea guy") before you spend any substantial time working with them in the first place. These are questions to ask up front.

Keep in mind though, that the non-coder has plenty of value to bring to the table (and if they don't provide any of these things, walk away): connections with customers, connections with investors, deep domain expertise, marketing / positioning / biz development knowledge, sales closing ability, etc., etc.

- Does anyone else have this problem?

I don't think the problem you are describing even exists, as such. The whole premise seems rooted in a lack of awareness of the importance of all the "other stuff" besides coding that goes into building a business.

- How did you deal with it?

See above. I'm a developer who has forced himself to walk on the "business side of the fence" the past few years exactly because we don't have that "business guy" to lean on. So I'm not just talking out my ass here... I've learned first hand, this stuff is fracking hard and is easily just as much work as the coding and is just as important.

- Is it illegal to just "walk off" with someone's idea?

Depends on a lot of details, most likely. But it's somewhat of a dick move, whether it's legal or not.

aashaykumar92
Excellent response! Just to briefly add on, in the initial building of a product, website, or whatever it is, the programmer may be doing most of the work to get that prototype or beta version built. HOWEVER, if the idea is going to be executed successfully, the person with the initial idea will most likely be doing his/her share of grunt work whether that be in researching the target market, developing an initial business plan, or meeting customers.

Conclusion: One person programs, the other focuses on sales and the business operations. It's the perfect combination so as long as both put in their due diligence.

31reasons
So the guy with idea does nothing until first MVP is built. Does his or her work really begin once MVP proved its worth ? It looks like technical guy can be 100% busy building the MVP while the guy with idea can explore other opportunities at the same time.
wmf
No. The idea is for the "business" guy to do his stuff before, during, and after development.
31reasons
what sort of things business guy do before and during the development ? I would like learn more about it.
aashaykumar92
Ok so before the development, there is obviously the idea. Ideas aren't normally just thought of out of nowhere...they usually come in the form of a solution to an existing problem. So there you have some thinking behind what a possible solution is (pre development). This person (x) then must think about what the best way to go about the solution is--is it mainly going to be done through a mobile application, website, or product? From there, x must do his/her due diligence is determining whether or not the idea has been done before and the general feasibility behind the idea. FINALLY s/he approaches a developer (y) about creating an MVP. Person y doesn't just blindly do the MVP--x must sell y on the idea and the way they will execute it. This is all pre-development.

Now let's assume y agrees. While y is building the MVP, x has to be making initial plans as to what to do with this MVP-- apply to an accelerator, go straight to investors, go to potential customers/clients to try and gain initial business, etc. Whether it is in the form of an application or a pitch, there is a lot of work and strategic thinking that has to go into these crucial initial stages. Work is being done on both ends at all times, or at least this must be the case if any combination of founders want to succeed.

X forms the business strategy, Y develops. If both do their due diligence, there is a great foundation there that is built for success.

wmf
The HN conventional wisdom:

People who only contribute ideas are losers and even bouncing ideas around is probably a waste of your time. Actually partnering with such a person sounds like a total waste of time. There's much more to making something work than just the idea and the code — who's going to do the "business" stuff like marketing or customer development? If you want to do that part yourself (patio11 style) then you don't need a partner. If you don't just want to do the programming, find a business partner who you trust and who has skills then start brainstorming ideas.

mindcrime
People who only contribute ideas are losers and even bouncing ideas around is probably a waste of your time. Actually partnering with such a person sounds like a total waste of time.

Indeed. I think it's very important to distinguish between "just an idea" guy and an actual valuable "business guy". J. Random Stranger off the street with the idea of "Pinterest + Basecamp For Dogs With Lyme Disease" is one thing... an experienced sales/marketing executive with deep connections, domain knowledge and real world experience in a domain relevant to the idea, is a whole different ballgame.

Of course, that's not to say that a person would have to have been a VP at a Fortune 500 to be a "real business person". But they would at least need some baseline business know-how and a willingness to dive in and learn marketing, branding, positioning, PR, customer development, etc., etc.

johngalt
'Idea guys' are common, and almost universally not worth dealing with. If idea guys provided value, why are all the job postings for developers? Why isn't Microsoft trying to H1-B idea guys from India?

This is not to say all non-tech people are worthless. Look for someone with domain specific knowledge and connections. Someone who has a plan to contribute more than just an idea.

mayerzahid
From Peter Thiels startup class http://blakemasters.com/post/22405055017/peter-thiels-cs183-... "A software engineer at Oracle with 4-6 years experiences gets a $105k salary and an $8k bonus. But a sales manager with 4-6 years experiences gets $112k and a $103k bonus. The situation is very much the same at Google, which claims to be extremely engineering driven; at a $96k base, $86k in commissions, and a $40k bonus, Google salespeople earn quite a bit more than their engineering counterparts."

A real "Business Guy" can bring tremendous value to a team & many company's pay them more because products don't sell them selves, you need to create a distribution channel.

coryl
Have you tried discussing the stake with them? What's their response when you tell them you'll be doing most of the work?
Cardeck1
@Matthew No offence but it's because of people like you, non technical people are hated.And no, i am not an idea man.

There is a damn difference between someone who throws an idea at you and walks away for a couple of months until you finish and someone who has a really a good idea yet he is totally dedicated and working side-by-side with you for the product to work, also willing to learn anything in order to help the company grow.

Why do you complain about the percentage?You want 100% or 120%?Come on!If he is not dedicated at all you don't work with him otherwise don't complain.Not to mention that you want to take the idea and walk away with it!So this is not a shitty idea then.Yet again, you want more and more %.

You need to understand that the execution of the idea is definitely important but if you don't have it, there is nothing to execute, ok?The road is idea>execution>business not execution>idea>business etc.So no (great) idea = no execution, no execution = no business.Either way, you must have an idea to start with.Besides, we don't know the real story.Maybe he asks for 50% so you don't eff him up later on and you showed us you are capable of many things.I wouldn't work with you if you ask me. You're money driven not passion driven.

There is no "Zuckerberg Dilemma".Mark stole the idea and improved it in time.

ameister14
Personally, I'd talk openly with him about this and a real division of labor.

If he is willing to put in equity and you're willing to put in sweat equity, for instance, a 50% split can be reached. If he's not willing to put in either, drop him.

If you can, offer to buy him out for whatever you think the idea is worth. If not, go your own way.

orangethirty
A startup is not its code, just like an auto manufacturer is not its factories.
ig1
It's perfectly legal to use someone-else's idea, but it is a bit of a jerk move take someones idea and walk off with it.

Just be upfront about it from the beginning - agree at the start of the weekend that anything (ideas or code) that is made over the weekend goes into the public domain (or alternatively everyone in the team gets a non-exclusive licence to do whatever they want with it.

Alternatively find your own ideas or find a co-founder who brings equal value to the table.

charlesjshort
Unless the idea is novel and non-obvious and sufficiently detailed for a person of ordinary skill in the art to make and use it; or you have signed some sort of agreement. You can do what you want.
ishbits
I used to think like this when I did my first startup as a technical co-founder.

But in the end, I worked less hours, travelled less and spent more time with my family than the idea co-founder who marketed and ultimately got us the sales to continue.