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Ask HN: Should I Keep Going?

21 points by rickharrison ↗ HN
I'm 20 years old and I've learned a lot on HN while reading it for the better part of the past year. In the past couple months I have been working on my second startup with a few other friends/developers. The nature of our business requires either capital to contract out graphics work or have a graphic designer on board. Since we have no capital we have been looking for a graphic designer. Ideally it would be another student, but we have been unable to find anyone. The other option is contracting out, but since we are college students thats not really an option. I am just beginning to feel like its not possible for this startup to happen without raising some amount of capital.

What do you think I should do?

40 comments

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monological
You can always do the graphics yourself. Grab a copy of Gimp if you don't have photoshop and start designing. What exactly is holding you back from doing it yourself?
inklesspen
I'm guessing level of skill. I can draw stick figures, but that's a far cry from making pretty pictures.
monological
I think a lot of people underestimate what they can actually do. You can learn certain techniques, even if you lack natural talent. There are also a boatload of psd tutorials on web.

check out http://psd.tutsplus.com/

SwellJoe
Inkscape might be a better choice. The tools are dramatically better for incrementally improving a basic idea. The GIMP rules for bitmaps, but vectors are a better tool for the job for a lot of stuff...like icons and such. There's a lot of good SVG artwork out the to look at for inspiration, and even borrowing within the bounds of the license. The Tango icon set is a great source.

I'll also mention that we've only recently gotten serious about design and graphics, and we've been profitable (by some definition) for a couple of years.

1gor
I agree, 'artistic' design is often overrated. Functional (interface) design is not, but it can be done by a programmer.

Just look at Google. There is no graphic design to speak of.

something
...by design
quizbiz
Not originally. Sergey just wanted it online fast.
mixmax
Try and run A/B split tests on a merchant site with good and bad design and you'll change your mind.
iamelgringo
Google has great design, they just make judicious use of whitespace.
mixmax
That would be like telling a designer that he could just grab a copy of python and start coding. Sure it might work, but it'll be a steaming pile of shit.

Graphic design is hard if you want to do it right.

aswanson
Said steaming pile should be used as fertilizer for the next iteration.
jrockway
I wish I could mod you up twice; once because you're right, and once for your exceptional use of the English language.

(I agree with the sentiment. It's better to do some sub-task badly than to not do it at all and give up on your whole project!)

monological
Look, I'm saying if you're tight on money and can't find anyone to do the job there's always the option of doing it yourself. I'm also saying that certain things, in regards to graphic design, can be learned. It might take time and it will be hard, but it can be done. I never said anything about it being done overnight.
mixmax
I see what you're saying, and maybe I was a bit harsh. And yes, you're right: Of course it's an option to do it yourself if you have the time and not the money, which seems to be the case here. But you'll get a product that reflects your expertise.
trevelyan
It isn't that hard if you approach it right. Start with a white screen and add a small logo at the top that looks OK. Use a font that you like and embellish it a bit with Photoshop. Otherwise, keep yourself to a handful of colors, maybe as few as two or three. Use variants of gray instead of pure black. Follow web conventions.

In most situations a clean design with useful content and functionality beats a pretty design that doesn't work. You can always pretty things UP later.

prospero
Your business is doomed to fail without a graphic designer? Unless you're selling graphic design, I'm not sure how that's possible.

But if it really is that crucial, maybe you should revisit the business idea you're pursuing. If your team doesn't have one of the core competencies you need to succeed, there seems to be a disconnect somewhere in your planning.

rickharrison
Anyone trying to sell a SaaS is essentially selling graphic design. The interface is what makes or breaks many applications.
fbailey
that's true but interface design is not the same thing as graphic design, and most graphic designer suck at interface design...
prospero
So to your mind, interaction/graphic design is the major differentiating factor, and you're looking at outsourcing that work? That seems roughly analogous to a bunch of business students failing to find a CS major who will do their coding, and wondering whether they should pay someone to develop their idea for them.

I honestly think you're psyching yourself out with respect to the design. But if you really think it's that important, and you really don't think you can do it, why did you pursue this idea in the first place?

cmos
Don't let this be your roadblock! Start working on tutorials for gimp and you'll be surprised how good you can make things look (my 'goto' in graphics has always been to add a gradient and/or a shadow).

When you have something working you might be able to attract more interest from graphic designers. In the meantime, try art schools or high school students looking for a project.

jerf
There are many places where you can grab very liberally-licensed graphics. If those don't do whatever unspecified thing you need them to do, they can probably still serve as a base since it's easier to modify than to start from scratch, especially if you find SVG/Inkscape/whatever source too. A bajillion web designs can be found too with liberal licensing. The combinations of liberally-licensed graphics and liberally-licensed web designs opens up yet another easily-accessible vista of design combinations.

Someday when I get around to it, that's what I plan to do with my site. (Once upon a time, I decided to do the design from scratch myself. What have I learned since then? I'm absolutely, utterly terrible. Oh well, lesson learned.)

Look around, search for things with Creative Commons commercial licenses on them. You'll probably be able to come up with what you need.

vaksel
getting a freelancer is cheaper than you might think. $200-300 bucks can probably get you what you need.
something
so, what is it- graphic design or interface design?
pg
I was thinking this would be a post about how some startup was facing terrible obstacles. If the only problem is that you can't find someone with design ability, the answer is easy: try harder. They're all over, especially at colleges.

Incidentally, as other posters have pointed out, you may be in danger of confusing graphic design with UI design. They overlap but they're not identical.

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ivankirigin
Mistaking UI/UX design for graphic design is very highly correlated with not paying enough attention to user experience. I'm amazed to still meet developers who talk about getting a designer to skin the app after they do more development. That's entirely backwards.

The great news is that you don't need to know photoshop to do UX design. Thinking harder about the tasks for a user's perspective is most of the process.

Zev
You're in college. Go down to your art department and see if they have an art class you can take. Or at the very least, will let you put up fliers somewhere in the building.
raptrex
or go to the class and ask someone to do it for you, tell them it would give them experience
Zev
Or you could not be completely cheap and pay someone for their time. The whole "do it because its a good experience and you're a college student so what other opportunities do you have?" thing doesn't really cut it.
SingAlong
If you are specifically looking for a college student, You should try at college fests or such events where web design competitions are held. Just participate in some of these (even if you are bad at design, just participate to meet people and also try your luck. You might be good at design yourself) and you'll see some guys recurring at many competitions. Find out if they are winning atleast a few times in those competitions.

That's just one way of doing it.

Why not a HN job post about your requirement? :P

prateekdayal
Once you raise capital, it may not be possible to do the startup because you can't find the right marketing guy at this budget. There will always be obstacles. Just release something people can start using and then invest resources in whatever brings most returns. Thats the way to go for bootstrapped businesses. You are not alone.
bjplink
I originally wrote an incredibly snarky reply (it even had a link to a simple Google search) but I'm reconsidering now...

In any collegiate environment you should be able to find plenty of art students looking for opportunities to build a portfolio. Find them. Use them. Pay them if they insist but I guarantee you can get away with offering very little.

Whatever it is you do, don't offer them stake or equity. Just get what you need done and move on.

Right now freelance graphic design is as cutthroat and savage as ever. People will do anything for insanely cheap prices. If you can scrape together a little money I think you'd be surprised to find out how far it can go if you look in the right places. Try freelance message boards and even somewhat seedier places like Digital Point (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/forumdisplay.php?f=104).

mattjaynes
Others have done it. Remember - be "relentlessly resourceful".

Find a designer - offer a code for design trade.

Find a few designs you like, then "borrow" their best elements for your own design.

Look at freely available creative commons designs on sites like http://www.freecsstemplates.org/

ilaksh
This is YN. He wants to know how to raise capital. Does no one understand that?

Rick Harrison: what is your business model?

asnyder
I would suggest the following:

Spend $25 or whatever it costs in your target region to post an ad on craigslist. This ad should say that you're a small startup, etc. Telecommuting should be ok.

Describe the kind of designer you're looking for as well as the work that they'll be doing.

You can say that it's an unpaid internship, assuming you're incorporated in some way, and have them work up to the maximum number of months allowed by your state's laws. If you're not incorporated in any way and prefer a designer for a longer period of time consider offering them equity in return for their work.

If you post the above ad properly you should receive hundred of applications many from talented designers, many of whom are recent graduates, or traditional designers seeking to switch to the web. Most of all they're looking for real world experience and this opportunity should provide them with that.

The only drawback is that it will require a bit of effort on your part to let them know what they're doing right, and what they're doing wrong. When they're doing something wrong try to point them to examples or resources that can help them learn. You'll be getting a designer, while they'll be getting invaluable experience.

sgk284
I've had wonderful success with 99designs.com. Great work that is crowd-sourced for amazing prices. If you use them my one recommendation is to guarantee the action (you'll see what that means when you create it). You'll get a lot more submissions that way.
ryuio
Do this.

1. Read the countless photoshop tutorials on the net and learn it. (if you can't the startup aint going nowhere anyways).

2. Read the book 'Dont make me think.'.

3. Read it once again.

4. Do the ui/graphic design yourself.

5. Get a good designer to critique your site and spend about an hour on it. (shouldnt cost much)

6. Redo your site based on feedback. Rinse. Lather. Repeat.

pclark
Hi, I'm a UI designer -- and my girlfriend is a graphic designer.

Drop me an email [in my profile] and we'll sort this out.