Tell HN: My Web App has 13 Users

319 points by chaddeshon ↗ HN
There are many stories on HN about great product launches that get money from tons of people on the first day. If we hear about slow launches, the store comes years later, after the product is a success. I'm writing this so that we'll have another perspective. I'm ten days into a slow, frustrating launch, but I am hopeful and excited.

Thirteen users have signedup for my hosted PhantomJS web service (BromBone.com). That's a lie. Four of those 13 accounts are test accounts I created. Why I am so excited about these nine accounts? I have nine people who have decided to take my service for a test drive! The great thing about that is that nine is only one less than ten. Ten doubled is 20. Find another 20 and I'm up 40. That's almost half way to 100, then 200, 300, and 400. Soon I'll have a 1000.

That may be a little optimistic. I've read so much about gathering interest before launch and talking to customers. But it din't go as smoothly as I would hope. Posts to mailing lists take me longer to craft than I would like. The discussion is positive and generates some traffic. But honestly it is a trickle compared to what I need. I posted twice to HN, but no one clicked the upvote button.

Why then am I so positive? I got two sigups overnight. And I hadn't done any new marketing the day before. My traffic is tiny. But every time I do a little piece of marketing, I see a spike. The spike goes away, but it leaves behind a residual traffic increase. Additionally, the nine users I have are actually playing around with the service. They're using something I crated! I think if I keep my efforts going, traffic and users will increase.

If anyone else out there is excited about getting just a handful of signups, you're not alone. I'm sure we won't all make it big, but I think there's reason to be excited. Just because my "launch" didn't bring in a flood of users doesn't mean that I can't grow the trickle into a stream, and then a river. Or maybe this is denial. Time will tell.

165 comments

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Congrats on the start. Post it here again on Monday 9-10 am eastern time.
Like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5362235 :)

Posting at the right time is not a guarantee you'll be seen, and you're post doesn't stay on the new page very long during peek times.

Don't worry though. I'll be back next week sometime between 9-10am Eastern with a new blog post.

There are no guarantees. But you have to keep trying until you're on the top of the homepage. Don't get too complacent with your 9 users :-)
Congrats and best of luck. You got me laughing real hard on the 4 users part.

Advice: Your site could benefit from some visuals, like a screen shot/ demo.

Hey, I'm going to be in the same position soon. :)

I haven't launched yet, and while I feel that there's a large audience for the service I plan to provide, I feel like the majority of my potential users are content with what they have right now.

Either way, great job. I'm not sure if I could be so optimistic. Besides talking to potential users, have you tried advertising/promotions/etc?

Edit:

As justhw said, a demo or two and screen shot wouldn't be a terrible idea.

And while this may not make a great difference, add a favicon and change the title.

The title is currently set to "A headless browser as a service built on PhantomJS - BromBone"

So, in my sea of tabs, all I see is "A head" which isn't as helpful when trying to find the tab as "BromBone."

I once read 'If you build it, they won't come'. I think this is the case for most people. Getting people to your website or service is the hard part, not the development. We're all in the same boat here. For a product such as yours, I can imagine going to events, posting on relevant forums etc... would be your best bet at getting more users. Best of luck with your product, what you currently have looks promising.
Wish you the best of luck. Btw, is it possible to submit html + JavaScripts to your service, not only the site URL?
That isn't possible yet, but it is something I want to support.
This is probably not very important but What is the expected workflow when someone visiting your site at http://www.brombone.com/ clicks sign up and clicks cancel in the following screen? I just get an error.
Obviously I didn't test that. Why would someone cancel?

It supposed to take you back to the home page.

Like I mentioned earlier, it probably does not need to be high on your agenda. However, to answer your question why would someone cancel... because the button is there and we users are stupid.

Open up a private browsing instance and go through the workflow. You'll probably end up here[1]. Did you change something in the last hour? I thought I was getting a message from dailycred not from you when I checked before I went for my walk.

Seems like you're logging these errors somewhere. Sorry if I am muddying the error tables for you.

[1] http://www.brombone.com/account?error=access_denied&erro...

It isn't stupid to click the cancel button.

That cancel button is actually what cause a few brief periods of unavailability a couple hours ago. When a user clicked the cancel button it was taking them to the account page even though they didn't have an account, and that was crashing the server.

I have fixed the crash, but I still need to add the proper redirects after cancel is click. Thanks for reporting this. It made tracking down the problem easier.

Actually, in hindsight it was my action that crashed your server unless someone else clicked cancel as well. Sorry about that. I'm glad you were able to track and patch it quickly.

Maybe HN is a bug reporting tool as well. :)

Same thing happened to me, posted twice to HN with no up votes then I got my first sign up and I was super excited. From that point there really should be no turning back.
I'm getting an application error. :(
It's back up now.

Useful service, I would use it assuming availability is good (I have jerryrigged something similar myself in the past and it was a real pain in the ass to get working smoothly). Suggested pricing seems way off though (I know it's free right now) - how did you figure out what was reasonable?

Pricing is tough. Part of setting a price is getting feedback from potential customers. Can I ask why it seems way off to you?
I'm not really a potential customer, but I'll jump in: $199 and $499 per month shocked me, and the range $29 to $499 completely confused me about your target customer. You should have an option marked "FREE" and in the same text as the paid options, and not just "free beta" but "free trial".

It seems like your target customer is someone who's not going to set up PhantomJS on their own, right? For 500 dollars I'll figure out how to set it up.

Another comment: the intro two paragraphs are probably more technical than they should be. The "what for" should be above the "headless browser" section; you might even put all of that stuff on a second "technical details" page to not scare people away. You're not selling "headless browsing" (anyone knows that they want that can probably set it up), you're selling "testing" and "screenshots" (and maybe other services too).

Late addition: saying "I'm not really a potential customer" isn't quite right. I'm putting together a hobby-project website with a lot of SVG images and have been thinking of looking into PhantomJS to generate pngs or gifs for browsers where svg isn't supported (preemptively in case this sounds stupid: that's way down the road, so I don't know if what I'm describing makes sense). I read your post and thought that I would be completely happy to spend a dollar or two a month (expected non-svg traffic is basically zero, but I'd like to support twitter cards) to support your project and generate the images on the fly using your service as a CGI, but 1) the pricing convinced me that the answer is "no" and 2) I'm no closer to knowing if what I want makes sense.

A few tutorials on how to do various tasks with your service would help a lot too (beyond the one-liners).

The price is exorbitant compared to the compute cost associated with each request, so let's assume that the value you provide here is that every other developer doesn't have to invest the setup time to build it themselves and keep it running smoothly.

I'm a developer, which I think everyone in your target market is, so let's assume I could probably roll my own version if I could dedicate a couple of days to it (that would be consistent with my previous experience). I'd expect you to set your pricing low enough that I should never even consider trying to roll my own, so low I never even bother to lookup the docs to see how hard it might be. As pseut says, the upper tiers are so expensive that you just motivated anyone considering that volume to go off and do the build/buy analysis.

I hope this is constructive feedback. There are lots of other good suggestions here on how to make your landing page convert better. If you take all the feedback on board, I do think you have a service that can provide value.

Pfff. 13 users are much more than my pet project (http://www.DNSDigger.com) has. It is a couple of years old but i recently started with paid accounts and API-access.
That's actually a pretty cool service! I was looking for a reverse dns lookup site like that a while back.

A few thoughts:

-You should make the explanation of what your site offers a little bit more clear. It took me a few minutes to figure it out.

-What is the Google Analytics/Adsense lookup Database part? I can lookup sites that use a specific google analytics or adsense id?

Yes. If you put in a Google Analytics code the site will show you what other site share the OwnerID-part. Same with adsense (and soon AddThis). I am not a designer and the first thing i would do if i had some money over would be to hire a designer to make my site look more pro.
WOW! Thats pretty sweet. Would be nice to see some v6 (psst. may be one more feature for the paid account ;)
Thanx! Yes IPv6 support should be implemented soon (within this year). But as i am not actually making any money at all right now (i suffering from depression & ADD) i have problem scaling the site with the much needed extra hardware and design. This is something i put together first for fun and now it has grown a bit hehe. To be able to serve the data i do i have to resolve hunders of millions of hostnames/domains and spider the net. That takes hardware, software, time and bandwidth which i only has time of hehe. Looking for sponsors when you are trying to be a commercial service is a bit hard but if anyone here has a hosting company that could give me access to dedi and/or VPS (low outgoing bw and HIGH incomming) i would love to trade "powered by COMPANY" and maybe banners.
Good luck to you. Not getting a single upvote for new stories on HN seems to be the norm, at least for me, so I wouldn't worry about that very much.

What you should focus on right now is whether or not the users you have actually use and like the app. If they do, then you've created something that people like and you should focus on growth. If they are not really using it after registration, then you should focus on improving the product until the usage rate goes up to acceptable levels.

I find it odd that the hacker community likes to completely disregard non-technical people[1]. It's situations exactly like this where it would bring a huge amount of value to have someone dedicated to marketing/community outreach and evangelism for the product.

Even though it's a technical project, explained well and with patience even the most non-technical person could wrap their head around it and develop a plan to get it to market.

Being both a dev and a marketer, I've found there are two, entirely separate brainstorming mindsets: product design and development, and product marketing and execution. It is incredibly taxing and inefficient to frequently switch between these two mindsets, which is why I believe most developed companies evolve into having two distinct departments: product development and product marketing. I'm working on my own startup now in RoR doing exactly this (i.e. trying to switch between the two roles frequently) with much frustration. Luckily I have a great business partner that is entirely focused on strategy that can knock some sense into me when I become too bogged down in the development/coding thought pattern.

Going to a business school with essentially zero CS majors, I personally know a dozen people that would be interested in jumping in on a project like this, not even for the lucrative rewards of success but the experience of working on such a project and jumping into the tech world.

Just some thoughts...

[1]: Most recent example I've stumbled upon: "No marketers/MBAs/designers/unicorns/whatever." Source: http://hackerho.us/

The ultimate is when you get a marketer who understands what APIs are used for. For example, I can say that the OP should probably consider pasting his sample code higher up on the page in a more prominent position. Show the end user he can succeed easily with the product and he won't mind clicking the sign-up button. Marketers these days also need to know where you can find these users. They should have an account here, SO, SlashDot, r/programming, Quora and so on.
I'd love to have someone dedicated to to marketing/community outreach and evangelism. If someone with those skills wants to join me on the journey, send me an email (in profile).
Yeah... You couldn't pay me the 1700/month to live in that house. Sounds like a bunch of poseurs and wannabes that need help paying the rent so they can play WoW all day. "No work from home" ... ? That's like, half the hackers out there. Whatever it is, that place is sketch city (capital of the united states of douche).
Application Error An error occurred in the application and your page could not be served. Please try again in a few moments.

If you are the application owner, check your logs for details.

I get the same thing when I go to BromBone.com - an error message...
Oh no! Heading home to fix it now.
Just figured something out - works in firefox, does not work in chrome or safari (e.g., webkit browsers)
Hm. Now that I just signed up in Firefox, it's not working there either.
I did nothing, but it seems to be working fine. It must have buckled under the traffic. I threw another dyno at it in case it happens again.

When the post started to get traction I booted more phantomJS instance, but I didn't think the simple landing page would have any trouble.

Anyone still having trouble?

Yes same application error.
I know how hard this can be. I've been doing startup stuff for 7 years. And it's still awfully painful. I'd encourage teaching to find an audience.

I've been blogging and blogging and blogging. I ended up giving that up at one point. I thought I had more important things to do. I thought it wasn't growing enough. But that was foolish.

The biggest thing that's changed a lot of things for me in the last year is simply sticking to a schedule of writing once per week. It all eventually adds up. It eventually opens up new doors.

It doesn't happen over night either. But the audience that finds you tends to stick with you. And tends to help market all the new projects.

What about creating BromBone.com was hard that you figured out? Any hosting problems that you solved? Any bugs in PhantomJS? Anything you can open source? Did you learn anything about what kind of mailing list post gets more traffic than others? Learn anything about making collecting signups easier?

I continue to collect tons and tons of ideas as I go through life that I feel were hard and I figured out or were interesting. A bunch of people just pass on when I write about them. Meh. But then every now and then, something spreads like crazy. An open source project here. A motivating post here. And years later you find, a lot of awesome stuff has built up. People following you. People wanting to see your next project and spread it.

Doing what we're doing is a career. It isn't a lottery. It isn't going to happen in one launch. It's something that we should expect to get better and better at. Forever.

> If you launch and no one notices, launch again. We launched 3 times. - Brian Chesky, Founder of AirBnB https://twitter.com/bchesky/status/312438036929576962

Seven years is a long time. I am pretty on the same timeframe as well. I took a chance to redo everything over and this time with 5 months I have already launched my new product. My HN launch is kinda depressing as it just gave me 6 visits LOL. That traffic graph is my new motivation factor. I love to improve my writing to write blog like you but for now I am sticking to similar goal and that is to release an upgrade to my product every week.
I have to wonder if releasing an upgrade is better than other things. Also you should leave your contact in your profile! My first reaction was to email you, but I have no way to reach you.
I think releasing frequently give me an opportunity to keep user interested. So far it pressured me to keep on adding values. Either way I think it does have possible effect until I burned out :). BTW, I updated my profile so feel free to contact me.
Do you think it's better to blog on your own personal blog, or to blog on the product's blog page?

I figured you'd want SEO on the product's blog page, but on the other hand, if it tanks, or you end up doing something else, you'd want the SEO on your own blog, right?

(comment deleted)
In the whole first month of Buffer, we had less than 100 signups. For comparison, we now have 560,000 users (2.5 years later). We now sign up 100 people within a couple hours. It amazes me to think about it.

I had a previous startup that also started slow, but never really changed. The key difference between the two, was retention. So I would highly recommend anyone who's getting started to closely watch retention. Does anyone keep using the product into their second week after sign up? That's the first thing I'd focus on with what I know now.

Hey Joel, I'm interested to know if the first 100 users stuck with your product over time or you had to figure out how to do retention over time.
What an awesome question Adam.

Just had a look at our cohort analysis. Happy to let you know that 16% of the December 2010 cohort (those 100 people) are still using Buffer today (27 months later). It's actually fairly representative of what our retention stabilizes to after 4-5 months for almost every cohort, though 100 is not an ideal sample size!

We've certainly worked to improve retention over time, but in addition I think with Buffer I finally had hit upon a problem that was a real pain point. So, there was good retention right from the start.

Joel, what are you using for your cohort analysis? An internally-built tool? A third-party service?
Hey Charlie! We've been back and forth on this in the lifetime of the startup, but we're now doing all metrics ourselves, so it is internally built. I built an early version of the cohort analysis (which didn't scale, but that didn't matter) just a few months in and it was massively valuable. It's not too hard to knock something together.
Thanks for the answer Joel! By the way - I'm curious why you guys had to built this internally - I always get the feeling people prefer using a 3rd party service like kissmetrics than building something.
Internal BI is the way to go. It gives better vision to those who make decisions. Congratulations! :)
Would be an interesting third party tool. Does anyone do this already? Something as simple as receiving a list of usernames over time.
MixPanel can do this and they have a free plan.

I custom-built my own cohort reports but as number of users grow in my own app, I'm planning to replace it with MixPanel. You don't really want to put stress on your own database servers which are meant for production, not for analysis.

You should not be doing analysis (OLAP) on your main transactional database (OLTP). Moving from transaction-processing system (TPS) to analysis is done through a process call ETL (Extract, Transform, Load.) You will want to transform your data into facts and dimensions -- this is going from a relational model to a multidemensional model (using a star schema.)
but that would be another system to maintain. I'm happy to outsource this to MixPanel or some other company. My needs are pretty generic. I appreciate your response though.
Yes, I 100% believe in focusing on your core competencies. If the OLAP is self-hosted or external, the key takeaway is to not do analysis against production (once your data set is larger than RAM ;) before that, who cares?)
Cohort.ly does a great job. They are in private beta so you can request access. It has been really beneficial to us.

http://cohort.ly/

I really dislike this trend of only having videos to share info about a product or service.

Not even a blurb on there.

I think what really helped you guys is that you've always been earnest and have done a good job becoming thought leaders as bloggers. People could learn a lot from the way the Buffer team grew out its product.

You guys created a really good template for slow-growth. Props.

Thanks! That means a lot, really appreciate you mentioning it.
Thanks for this helpful and encouraging post.

As I was right this the main question I had was how do I know the difference between "Nobody wants what your selling" and "You need to do a better job marketing"? Retention is a great answer to the question.

Indeed, that's exactly right!

I think for us, as soon as we saw that people were sticking around we knew we had to switch to "do a better job marketing". With retention, that was validation that there must be many more people out there who would find Buffer super useful, just like the people who were staying active. In essence, we needed to make more people aware of the value we were providing.

That's really awesome to hear. At what point did you start worrying about referrals? Was there a point in time when that naturally started to grow as more users, used it? Or was it something that didn't change unless you were focused on it?
I recently hacked together a product that aligns with buffer's philosophy, but is inherently different. I have about 70 users, but zero paid users and not much activity. I've been ignoring it from a development standpoint in favor of other projects. Meanwhile I still use the site daily. I hope I can put some more time into it, but for now I'm just letting it scratch a personal itch. If anyone is interested: https://tweezer.io
This is neat. It's a key problem we've spent a lot of time thinking about (that posting the same thing in the exact same way to different networks is not the right thing to do). Good job, and good luck!
I was wondering why no one was tackling the issue of posting to multiple social networks, and instead all we saw were services that clone posts from one network to the next, services that usually get shut down from the networks. So I made my own a while back that can post to Twitter, Facebook, G+, etc in customized ways depending if I have a URL or not, automatically shortening it, etc. Otherwise I would give yours a try.
I'd love to see it – shoot me an email.
Retention vs sign ups. Interesting.

Are we talking LinkedIn style link-bait and endless 'notification' emails?

Or Dropbox/Mailbox style gamification to get more free by being 'part of the club'?

I'm also getting the 500 error page. Sorry, but this is a big problem. Stability counts, uptime counts.

But I really want to try it!

You posted twice on HN and no one up voted you - posted this 'Tell HN' and this time you're on the front page, I'm sure that a bunch of interested hackers will visit your website now and register with your service. Keep telling the world about your service, find out what works better and do it again.
> no one up voted you

This is a problem with HN. I've submitted 6 stories with this account, all of which seem like they're definitely interesting material highly relevant to HN's audience, and rather similar to stories that have made the front page.

But they've gotten at most 3 upvotes, as of this writing. Heck, I have single comments that get more upvotes than all of my submissions combined.

I don't want to think about having the success or failure of a product riding on HN's ability to find my submission and upvote it.

If you want to personally do something about this, next time you read through the front page and still want to procrastinate, look at the New feed, and upvote some stories that don't already have a big group of people looking at them!

Great post. Those super-early adopters are awesome. I consider myself lucky that, as a high school senior and one-man team who utilizes free software and services like AWS EC2, I don't feel compelled to amass a userbase to put dinner on the table. It's really a great experience to have nothing more than $10 (for the domain name) and a bunch of (well-spent) hours invested in a web service. And the best part is: I built it for myself and anyone else who finds it valuable. I built it because I wanted a web-based alternative to iTunes on iOS. It's pure freedom - the idea that almost anyone can build something they want to use and put it online makes me appreciate the Web all the more.
First of all, congrats on actually shipping. You've already accomplished more than 99% of people.

Second of all, you're actually charging money for your product. That's awesome. When just one of those users converts to a paid plan you'll already be making more money than any of those hyped social startups with big launches that never turn a dollar profit.

Kudos.

Congrats on the launch.

I run a monitoring service that's built on top of PhantomJS. Happy to chat anytime about the tech or what I've learned about the business.

It would help to have a clear call to action from the homepage. One thing to keep in mind is that most major hosting companies don't charge for inbound traffic any more so pulling data is basically free.

My startup in 2008 spent 3 years in development limbo and never launched. My next one in 2011 launched with similar numbers to what you described here and we eventually scrapped it because we had no way to effectively promote it. We launched a new site in 2012 and we now have over 7 million unique visitors a month to our site and hundreds of partnerships with other services. The biggest change we made was focusing on building partnerships in the industry. We never went to any conferences or sales trips, everything was via email introductions. Try to find a way to make yourself useful to people who have distribution channels, at least that worked for our individual case anyhow.
I passed it along to 0-7000 people, depending on how things play out in the noise of G+ and Twitter. It's not something I have a use for, but it looks interesting.
I'm in a similar situation and it's encouraging to read that this seems to be commonplace. I'm just about on the cusp of having one satisfied customer willing to participate in the develop-deliver-discuss cycle, which makes me very excited, but I'm not sure where to go from there.
From what I can tell, after you get one satisfied customer, you need to figure out how to get a second satisfied customer, and then a third. You hope that eventually one of you attempts to get one customer actually gets you 100.