I think the firing was purely a business decision for both companies. Harboring stuff like this can go down hill fast. It's easier to just let them go and not have to deal with it.
No, it's equality. Now whether or not you agree that an off-colour joke should get you fired, it did and it can. It did so and it can because it can bring very negative attention on your employer.
Now, attempting a public shaming will also bring negative attention on your employer. That can get you fired.
A couple of guys make some unfunny dick jokes at a conference that are overheard by a woman. Said woman is offended and decides the appropriate response is to take photos of them and out them publicly. The employer of one of the unfunny guys shitcans him, and the internet mob comes out in force.
A bunch of innocent bystanders are dragged in to the foray when the mob attacks the employer of the offended woman. The woman's employer wants nothing to do with any of the mess, so they fire her very publicly on the internet in an attempt at triage for their bleeding customer base.
Meanwhile, the conference organizers institute what could only be described as a "gag order" policy with regard to harassment issues.
Please -- oh please -- explain to me how one could possibly extract anything "good", with regard to equality or otherwise, from this situation?
I disagree, I think too much of this has got wrapped up in male/female terms.
People making off-colour jokes at a conference is unacceptable (perhaps not a firing offence).
Posting pictures of fellow attendees from a conference, while your work is paying you to be there, with insulting messages about them, is also unacceptable (but perhaps not a firing offence).
No-one involved here comes off particularly well, but I truely believe if if Ardia had done any (or all) of:
* Talk privately to the people
* Talk privately to the organiser of PyCon
* Talk publicly about the issue, without giving out pictures or names
She would not now be having a problem of anywhere near the same size, or now be fired.
What has this got to do with women? Anyone could have found those jokes offensive, whatever their gender. And no-one has the right to protection from being offended, whatever their gender.
Thanks for asking. The nature of the attacks against Adria are EXTREMELY misogynistic (rape threats, death threats, people calling her a c_nt, b_tch, wh_re, etc) and many people have taken up a "burn her at the stake" mentality. They've also pulled into question her professional credibility and called her an affirmative action hire. They are saying this kind of behavior should be expected from someone with the domain "butyouragirl".
Misogyny is kind of like porn: "you know it when you see it". There is a simply an undue level of hatred for Adria which is correlated to her gender, I think in large part because she is an outspoken feminist.
A lot of people in this community would very much like outspoken feminists not to exist (check the comments here or on Reddit anytime a post about women in tech goes up).
Another way to look at it: I can't imagine this chain of events would have gone down if a man pointed out a lewd joke at a conference.
The whole thing really smells like a feminist backlash.
I'm trying to be more outspoken about gender bias I encounter in the workplace, but incidents like this are a terrifying reminder of why that can be dangerous.
A few months ago I posted about an inappropriate comment someone made to me at a hackathon and got lots of advice (on this forum) to publicly out and shame the person. Seeing that my company could have come under attack for that is a reminder of why it's dangerous for women to speak out.
Men and women alike have been coming forward and questioning Adria's actions, especially since she made the same type of joke during the conference. She's become a PR nightmare for her employer because she used her media position to take matters into her own hands.
It needs to be understood that posting someone's picture on the internet with the intent of making an example out of them through public shaming, and without the accused having equal footing to present their side, has consequences, especially for an accusation as politically charged as sexism. Such an accusation can get someone fired.
One reason this has grabbed so much attention is that the remarks she overheard were not only rather benign and non-sexist, but they were also the kinds of comments both men and women make to their friends, including Adria, as she did on Twitter.
> Another way to look at it: I can't imagine this chain of events would have gone down if a man pointed out a lewd joke at a conference.
If you want to go down this route, a man complaining about a dongle joke probably would not have received the attention Adria's accusations received because she's a woman. That's simply because accusations made by women are taken more seriously due to them more often being on the receiving end of sexism. That's why it's so important to make sure the attention paid to gender inequality issues isn't wrongly exploited.
Absolutely, the reaction would be terrifying for anyone. I assumed you were talking about her initial actions. I was.
There's been sensible debate and abuse. There may be an overlap, but they are distinct reactions. If you challenge someone, you invite them to challenge you back (I hope she's not terrified by disagreement). But abuse and threats are entirely separate, and seem to have come from people beyond the industry, e.g. anonymous. Lots of trolls on the net are just looking for a fight and gender politics fades into the background when you have a large number of people on a hair-trigger, willing to use any language at their disposal that they can make fit the target.
While I do not disagree with you about the offensive content of many of the attacks, what do you or Adria Richards expect to have happened after posting a public picture of her accused and calling out other people by name and company?
She chose public justice for all, including herself and anyone she represented in that context. That works both ways, regardless of gender.
I'm not saying I agree with SendGrid's decision but how could Andria effectively do her job as a developer evangelist if the entire developer community hates her?
What concerns me is that even in the face blistering internet rage, she dug in her heels and stood by her actions. Just apologize. Why is it so bloody hard for people these days to just admit they made a mistake? Being fired, harassed on twitter, etc etc could not possibly be better than writing "I'm really sorry I publicly outed those guys, I should not have done that, and will refrain from doing that in the future".
Some of the responses were indignant, and people said she shouldn't have to apologize for her actions. I agree, she doesn't need to apologize. But look where it got her! This is indicative of a much broader trend I see. People today would rather lose a finger than say they're sorry. I just cannot understand it.
If I recall correctly she at least said she was sorry in that first HN thread where it was mentioned that one of the guys was fired. But she could have written that in an update on her blog post or in a new post.
37 comments
[ 5.2 ms ] story [ 88.6 ms ] threadSadly, humans are not perfect. Making dumb jokes and posting a photo of those who made dumb jokes online? Dumb mistakes.
Firing people, DDoS attacks, vile threats: Now that’s a shitty clusterfuck. The bullies have driven the conversation.
Now, attempting a public shaming will also bring negative attention on your employer. That can get you fired.
A bunch of innocent bystanders are dragged in to the foray when the mob attacks the employer of the offended woman. The woman's employer wants nothing to do with any of the mess, so they fire her very publicly on the internet in an attempt at triage for their bleeding customer base.
Meanwhile, the conference organizers institute what could only be described as a "gag order" policy with regard to harassment issues.
Please -- oh please -- explain to me how one could possibly extract anything "good", with regard to equality or otherwise, from this situation?
People making off-colour jokes at a conference is unacceptable (perhaps not a firing offence).
Posting pictures of fellow attendees from a conference, while your work is paying you to be there, with insulting messages about them, is also unacceptable (but perhaps not a firing offence).
No-one involved here comes off particularly well, but I truely believe if if Ardia had done any (or all) of:
* Talk privately to the people * Talk privately to the organiser of PyCon * Talk publicly about the issue, without giving out pictures or names
She would not now be having a problem of anywhere near the same size, or now be fired.
Misogyny is kind of like porn: "you know it when you see it". There is a simply an undue level of hatred for Adria which is correlated to her gender, I think in large part because she is an outspoken feminist.
A lot of people in this community would very much like outspoken feminists not to exist (check the comments here or on Reddit anytime a post about women in tech goes up).
Another way to look at it: I can't imagine this chain of events would have gone down if a man pointed out a lewd joke at a conference.
The whole thing really smells like a feminist backlash.
I'm trying to be more outspoken about gender bias I encounter in the workplace, but incidents like this are a terrifying reminder of why that can be dangerous.
A few months ago I posted about an inappropriate comment someone made to me at a hackathon and got lots of advice (on this forum) to publicly out and shame the person. Seeing that my company could have come under attack for that is a reminder of why it's dangerous for women to speak out.
It needs to be understood that posting someone's picture on the internet with the intent of making an example out of them through public shaming, and without the accused having equal footing to present their side, has consequences, especially for an accusation as politically charged as sexism. Such an accusation can get someone fired.
One reason this has grabbed so much attention is that the remarks she overheard were not only rather benign and non-sexist, but they were also the kinds of comments both men and women make to their friends, including Adria, as she did on Twitter.
> Another way to look at it: I can't imagine this chain of events would have gone down if a man pointed out a lewd joke at a conference.
If you want to go down this route, a man complaining about a dongle joke probably would not have received the attention Adria's accusations received because she's a woman. That's simply because accusations made by women are taken more seriously due to them more often being on the receiving end of sexism. That's why it's so important to make sure the attention paid to gender inequality issues isn't wrongly exploited.
There's been sensible debate and abuse. There may be an overlap, but they are distinct reactions. If you challenge someone, you invite them to challenge you back (I hope she's not terrified by disagreement). But abuse and threats are entirely separate, and seem to have come from people beyond the industry, e.g. anonymous. Lots of trolls on the net are just looking for a fight and gender politics fades into the background when you have a large number of people on a hair-trigger, willing to use any language at their disposal that they can make fit the target.
She chose public justice for all, including herself and anyone she represented in that context. That works both ways, regardless of gender.
What concerns me is that even in the face blistering internet rage, she dug in her heels and stood by her actions. Just apologize. Why is it so bloody hard for people these days to just admit they made a mistake? Being fired, harassed on twitter, etc etc could not possibly be better than writing "I'm really sorry I publicly outed those guys, I should not have done that, and will refrain from doing that in the future".
Here's another thread where I argue that an apology could have fixed things: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5415524
Some of the responses were indignant, and people said she shouldn't have to apologize for her actions. I agree, she doesn't need to apologize. But look where it got her! This is indicative of a much broader trend I see. People today would rather lose a finger than say they're sorry. I just cannot understand it.