The fact that it's a reaction to discrimination is irrelevant. It's the same act, just with a different target, and changing the target does not change any reasonable value judgment that can be made about the act itself.
this isn't at all about defending men's rights to have a site like lulu, it's about saying lulu is bullshit and we should call a spade a spade. It's not saying that sexism is OK or defending sexism against women, what it's saying is that yes there is a legitimate problem, but behavior that is diametrically opposite of anti-female sexist behavior is a faulty solution. E.g., those "all-female" hackathons are clearly bullshit, but things like Hack and Jill (fixed at 50% female, 50% male) are very cool.
It is a double standard for sure. But we are not allowed to talk about that right now. We're busy trying to solve the problems that women are having. We'll get to our man problems after. :/
"What About The Men!" cries a man who takes insult at the idea of a space he isn't welcome. An exception to the rules of society!
And his point about all-woman hackathons is kinda refuted by his own banner image. A room full of men with three women. People don't like feeling exposed and isolated. Just maybe if events weren't a super-majority of young white males then minority groups wouldn't need to create a safe space for themselves to not feel like outsiders.
To that the brave Male Rights Warrior says "Well people are just people! They should just get over it and fit in." Well they are getting over it, by hosting their own events where they feel comfortable. You just aren't explicitly invited.
I've mentioned this before I think, but even geeks take advantage of organizing peer groups that are aligned to their own minority status. I mean, forming up a group is practically Step 1 in "Surviving as a Minority". Most peer groups I've been in I have ended up as a minority in some sense (though not gender or race); it was by starting off in small groups (not necessarily of the same minority status, but supportive of such) that I was able to integrate into the larger whole.
The real issue isn't that women in tech are forming up separate groups; it's that they have to so in order to feel welcomed and safe, and to have a central voice to advance equality and professionalism within the tech field. Those saying "just get over and fit in" don't get it; this is exactly how you start to fit in at all.
I think it is less about taking insult at the idea of a space he's not welcome and more about taking insult at hypocrisy that seems to be around the "It is bad when YOU do it. But not when we do it" type of stuff. The equality that is being sought is not really a true equality. That's my 2 cents.
But that's not really true. If equality is achieved, there's no need for such "safe space" events and they'll likely disappear. But at the moment we are far from equality, so there is a need for it.
So until this all gets sorted out, you'd be fine if an all-male event was put on so men could feel safe from being publicly shamed by an overreaction to overheard comment? Everyone has an equal right to feel safe, right?
Yes, they do. It's just that Men have no reason to feel unsafe, because they are in the majority, Indeed, the large majority of coding events, seminars, lectures, terminology, etc - are geared towards men. This is the same argument as someone loudly asking "Why isn't there a White Entertainment Television channel?"
There is. It is every other channel on TV, where the default assumption of an audience member is a white (and typically male) human in their 30's. We have no reason to feel unsafe.
Men have no reason to feel unsafe... until they lose their jobs over a joke.
Edit: OK I admit that was kind of unconstructive. My real point is: men get harassed by women and groups of women all the time. It might not be a problem at most tech events. Just don't pretend it never happens.
"Men have no reason to feel unsafe, because they are in the majority"
Prey animals don't share your optimism. They live lives of eternal vigilance. To a gazelle, the price of failure in vigilance is death.
In a world where it is increasingly becoming more dangerous to step out of line. Racist, sexist or otherwise offensive jokes will cost you your job, regardless of how "safe" you thought the joke was: it only takes someone to interpret the joke as offensive and report it to an authority, and you end up out of a job.
The person taking offense is the lion. The person unwittingly causing offense is the gazelle who let down their guard for five seconds.
Men have every reason to feel unsafe: because they are in the majority (in certain environments) it is easier to assume that a particular joke will be acceptable to any gathering. The more people are in hearing range of that joke, the more likely it is that someone will regard it as offensive and take disciplinary action.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance and continual self censorship.
The problem with this line of argument is that while technically correct, it completely lacks the context that underpins the entire problem of discrimination against women.
Men discriminating against women is a problem because of the effects. The lesser rights. The lower pay. Being passed over for advancement. The dismissive treatment. etc.
Until men are being systematically disadvantaged by the discrimination they receive from women, trying to equate our hypothetical hurt feelings at being excluded from the tiny minority of women-only events, to their very real career barriers is just adding insult to injury.
The simple fact that the author posted anonymously demonstrates two things: 1. Whomever wrote it isn't proud enough to put a name to it. 2. It's a problem enough to warrant anonymity.
I don't know if you are serious or are being sarcastic.
Assuming the former (rather sad state of affairs), this short interview with Steven Pinker should explain why a society where people fear retaliation for voicing 'outrageous' views is fucked: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0W9sSqeJnA
1. They're a coward about this. There are good reasons for having women-only events - because in "normal" events there is a massive gender imbalance that can make them feel uncomfortable. Men are not faced with this situation, so they do not need men-only events.
Well, maybe people don't know, but if you are an unskilled and unsuccessful man, you are FUCKED and hopeless, and will tend to have no money, no love and no sex.
If you are a girl, you can work a bit on your attractiveness, and then have sex for $200/hour, giving you both a lot of money AND a lot of sex.
On average, being a woman is way better than being a man.
Mz pointed out one reason you might want a women-only event.
a good reason to have some "ladies only" groups is because of the way a lot of women behave around men, not because of the way men behave around women or because "men are all sexist pigs".https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5272532
Author: please remember that race and gender are just social constructs. I usually refactor myself into a Straight White Male when going to conferences, just to get along.
So far so good, but one day at the zoo I got distracted and turned into a panda by sheer willpower. After that it took a while to wean off bamboo leaves.
If you see anybody gnawing on a bamboo stick at PyCon, please do not post any pictures on Twitter. Thanks.
33 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 69.0 ms ] threadAnd his point about all-woman hackathons is kinda refuted by his own banner image. A room full of men with three women. People don't like feeling exposed and isolated. Just maybe if events weren't a super-majority of young white males then minority groups wouldn't need to create a safe space for themselves to not feel like outsiders.
To that the brave Male Rights Warrior says "Well people are just people! They should just get over it and fit in." Well they are getting over it, by hosting their own events where they feel comfortable. You just aren't explicitly invited.
The real issue isn't that women in tech are forming up separate groups; it's that they have to so in order to feel welcomed and safe, and to have a central voice to advance equality and professionalism within the tech field. Those saying "just get over and fit in" don't get it; this is exactly how you start to fit in at all.
There is. It is every other channel on TV, where the default assumption of an audience member is a white (and typically male) human in their 30's. We have no reason to feel unsafe.
Edit: OK I admit that was kind of unconstructive. My real point is: men get harassed by women and groups of women all the time. It might not be a problem at most tech events. Just don't pretend it never happens.
Prey animals don't share your optimism. They live lives of eternal vigilance. To a gazelle, the price of failure in vigilance is death.
In a world where it is increasingly becoming more dangerous to step out of line. Racist, sexist or otherwise offensive jokes will cost you your job, regardless of how "safe" you thought the joke was: it only takes someone to interpret the joke as offensive and report it to an authority, and you end up out of a job.
The person taking offense is the lion. The person unwittingly causing offense is the gazelle who let down their guard for five seconds.
Men have every reason to feel unsafe: because they are in the majority (in certain environments) it is easier to assume that a particular joke will be acceptable to any gathering. The more people are in hearing range of that joke, the more likely it is that someone will regard it as offensive and take disciplinary action.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance and continual self censorship.
Men discriminating against women is a problem because of the effects. The lesser rights. The lower pay. Being passed over for advancement. The dismissive treatment. etc.
Until men are being systematically disadvantaged by the discrimination they receive from women, trying to equate our hypothetical hurt feelings at being excluded from the tiny minority of women-only events, to their very real career barriers is just adding insult to injury.
We need male-only events!
http://swiftstack.com/images/posts/pycon-paul-graham.png
And that's a problem.
Assuming the former (rather sad state of affairs), this short interview with Steven Pinker should explain why a society where people fear retaliation for voicing 'outrageous' views is fucked: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0W9sSqeJnA
2. It's not.
If you are a girl, you can work a bit on your attractiveness, and then have sex for $200/hour, giving you both a lot of money AND a lot of sex.
On average, being a woman is way better than being a man.
a good reason to have some "ladies only" groups is because of the way a lot of women behave around men, not because of the way men behave around women or because "men are all sexist pigs". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5272532
So far so good, but one day at the zoo I got distracted and turned into a panda by sheer willpower. After that it took a while to wean off bamboo leaves.
If you see anybody gnawing on a bamboo stick at PyCon, please do not post any pictures on Twitter. Thanks.