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Ask HN: Should I include my GPA and/or transcripts when applying for jobs?

9 points by CoryG89 ↗ HN
I am set to graduate with my BS in Software Engineering from Auburn University in December. I am currently trying to get my resume in order and start sending out tons of applications for jobs in the next month or so. I have been programming and doing web development in some form since I got my first computer when I was seven or eight years old, I am having trouble trying to decide what all should go on my formal resume. Many people online state to only have one page, or one main page with everything important on it.

Many people at school are recommending to include complete transcripts with grades (mine are pretty good, I have an overall GPA of 3.4. I generally have A marks in hard major classes such as Algorithms, Networks, Assembly, and Operating Systems.

Do you guys think its a good idea to include full transcripts with applications if I have no paid professional experience to speak of? If I do include transcripts should I have my GPA listed on my resume? Many sample resumes I see do not include a GPA. Others include a full list of relevant courses taken, but still no GPA. I thought GPA was pretty common on a resume if its above 3.

I did my core (non-software) classes at a Community College and transferred to my Auburn University two and a half years ago. Should I include the community college on the resume, should not be as prominent/detailed as the University's listing. How can or should I show/express my own self-taught experience from years before University on my formal resume.

Any advice will be much appreciated! Thanks in advance for your time.

19 comments

[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 60.4 ms ] thread
alain94040
For a new college grad, the main thing I look at is programming experience outside mandatory college classes. You say you have been programming since the age of 8. Surely you must have done something worth mentioning.

This is a competition with your fellow classmates. If all you show are good grades, you are the same as everyone else.

As to the format: forget transcripts. PDF format please, one page or two max.

[a former hiring manager]

runawaybottle
You have to sell yourself however you can. There are many new developers that don't have a degree, or don't have good grades, so those people will need to demonstrate their abilities in other ways. For example, I had a lackluster gpa, so I made sure to work on my own projects that I could emphasize. If you think you can show that you excelled in relevant CS classes, then do so. If you've got stuff you did before college that's interesting, figure out how you can bring it up. You have to play up whatever potential positives you have.
patio11
Nobody will read transcripts. Few hiring officers read resumes.

This issue is vastly, vastly, vastly less importance to your success with your job search than meeting and making an impression on people with hiring authority is. The default response to an unsolicited resume is for it to be silently discarded. Rather than making that the focus of your efforts, start identifying people you'd like to work for (or companies and, by extension, the people within them with hiring authority) and pitching them directly. Your conversations will be much, much more interesting than anything on your resume or any response to it.

wglb
Few hiring officers read resumes.

What is your opinion about cover letters?

tptacek
Write cover letters. I almost never read resumes. I read every cover letter.

Any hiring manager that says you shouldn't write cover letters is someone you should be suspicious of working for.

[deleted]
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rdouble
As an alternative data point to some of the answers, everywhere I've worked looked at resumes and did not really consider cover letters. I believe this is also the case at Google and most Wall Street tech jobs.
caw
Could you extrapolate this statement (Google and Wall Street) to giant companies with an online HR application process? Cover letters make sense when you're sending it to a person, or at least an email address.

What happens when you put your resume into Taleo or one of those other online application systems? You could be applying to several positions with the same cover letter and resume in that case. I wonder how many people actually read them.

rdouble
You could do that, but I wasn't specifically talking about Taleo or similar systems. When I was on the hiring end, we just got resumes via email and didn't read the cover letter.
dylangs1030
Cover letters are the most important part of getting an interview. If you can find the right balance of assertive, interesting and enthusiastic, you're almost guaranteed a response at the minimum.

By contrast, resumes are spam. I've gone through most hiring processes on my cover letter (and tech interview of course) alone, without ever being asked for a resume.

lawnchair_larry
Even fewer read cover letters. Most people hiring in tech do the following:

1) Ignore cover letter

2) Scan resume for signs that employee may be at all relevant

3) Contact for phone screen

Anyone who requires a cover letter is not someone you want to work for. It's simply disrespectful and burdensome for a prospective employee who will often be ignored.

No transcripts, no GPA.

wglb
Interesting.

My biggest successes in getting hired have been when I spent time on a cover letter.

Conversely, when I am pulled into hiring decisions, I first look for a cover letter, and i generally get more out of that than resumes. Resumes seem to be near spam, or written by the Markov Resume Writing Service.

mcx
I would leave your overall GPA from Auburn, 3.4 is pretty good. There is no need to include the community college. No need to include transcript unless requested. Projects/things you have shipped/winning hackathons will probably help make you stand out the most.
CoryG89
That's what I figured, probably include the GPA and have transcripts ready. The advisers at the University seem so adamant about sending out my transcripts whenever I can. I am attempting to get all projects that I haven't lost over the years together and online. I am hoping to have a very short formal resume which points online for example projects and a less formal description of my interests, studies, etc.
tdec
As I've worked for 15+ years in various consulting firms, I have a CV in 2 sections. A brief one with a simple outline of personal information, formal education and a 1-line summary of positions held, then a much more verbose section detailing the projects I've worked on. The first section is maybe 1.5 pages these days. The second section is easily 7 or 8 pages and is not always sent, only when a customer asks for more detailed information.

In your case, I would suggest to emphasise your programming projects. See it as some kind of portfolio. Nobody will be reading the transcripts so don't include them. Include your GPA score if you think the rest of the CV is not entirely convincing. These are the kind of indicators that people will look at for people that are straight out of school and are not expected to have a lot of practical experience.

When I'm on the other side of the table and reviewing a CV for (junior) positions I'm basically looking for a few indicators: 1. The person has the ability to think at a certain level that is right for the job 2. They have some relevant experience or have shown an interest in the topic 3. I'm not starting from zero with this person. 4. Can they pick up new skills reasonably quickly and are they willing to do so

Good luck with the job hunt !

CoryG89
Thank you, I have a considerate amount of outside of school projects that I am putting together. Most of it I feel are small demos and games and such that I used to teach myself new technologies and such, nothing actually in use or all that useful, but I hope it at least somewhat demonstrates my abilities.
teahat
GPA - absolutely. If it's not there, the assumption will be that the reason it isn't there is because it's bad (especially as a new grad). Like when you look at a 2nd hand car listing and they leave off mileage - you know it will be huge. Transcripts, no - they just add unnecessary padding at this stage, nobody wants to read those unless they absolutely have to, so they'd only be asked for at the end of the process, if at all.

But more importantly than either of these - you should write your resume differently depending on what you are applying for. Highlight what is most valuable to the organization you are applying to. If this means you have to reduce the number of applications you send out, that's fine, it's much better to have fewer well targeted applications.

And try to state facts, not claims. By which I mean - don't claim to 'work well in a team', or have 'excellent X'. Show what you've done and the impact it had. If you wrote something cool at the age of 10, I can infer that you're smart and self-directed from that.

Good luck.

caw
From my experience: Don't include your community college, unless that's where your degree is from. Even then, if you got an AS at a community college and then got a BS, just drop the AS.

Include your GPA if it's better than 3.0/4.0. That's the cutoff point for most companies, and unfortunately some will be 3.5, so unless you know the hiring manager you'll just get filtered out. Some people try to tweak this by splitting out "Major GPA" versus "Overall GPA", but if your school was like mine then your community college work just transferred as credit, and doesn't impact your GPA outside of fewer classes in the calculation.

Don't include your transcripts; this isn't a scholarship.

My question is at what point do you drop your college GPA from your resume? After your first professional job, after 5 years, more?

dylangs1030
I'm a bit late to this, but I'll give you my experience. It echoes what others have said to some extent.

In every instance I've applied for a job, it began with my casually (but assertively) stating interest. Here is the process I go through (you could call it my job hunting "workflow"):

1. I read about an interesting company or meet/talk to someone with connections to an interesting company.

2. I learn what I can about them, researching for a few hours, deciding if I'd enjoy it (on a cursory level).

3. I contact people with decision making ability and politely but assertively state my interest. Note - I don't send a resume (you can, I don't).

4. Most cases, I've gotten through an entire hiring process without being asked for a resume. If they happen to ask, it generally suffices to show them my portfolio of prior work. This is in fact as simple as linking the list of projects I've authored on my blog with corresponding code.

5. Technical interview(s). Negotiation. Wrap up. Bam, you're done.

I highly, highly suggest you read patio11's "Don't Call Yourself a Programmer"[1] and "Salary Negotiation"[2]. No, really, read both. Absorb every kernel of knowledge.

The importance of a resume is grossly overestimated, as is the importance of a transcript. Don't show a piece of paper, show the knowledge that your education provided you with. Connections are important, and will field you the most significant leads in finding a job.

[1]: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pro...

[2]: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/