Ask HN: Never worked in a startup before, not sure if this is normal

The LinkedIn thing is none of your employers business. I don't have my current employer on my linkedin page. That is a weird one, unless the product you are working on would benefit from you putting them on your linkedin page, I don't see that as being a requirement from them.

Overtime is called overtime because it is supposed to be above and beyond the normal expectation. This should not be 'normal', but definitely could be in situations where a release is behind, or you're coming up on a deadline, most of which is probably the responsibility of the Project Manager, not you, but you have a role their too.

I would talk to the Project Manager specifically about the overtime. Try to understand why he expects you to stay later. It may be difficult, but try not to be defensive (we're Canadian, so friendly is our nature). You should explain to him your thoughts on overtime. Ask what he would expect you to be doing with the extra time in the office, and why the work would not have been scheduled to be in regular hours.

As far as LinkedIn, talk to him about that too. Why is it important to them that they be on your LinkedIn page?

Most important, make the project manager understand that you really do like the product and the work. If the work is getting done, and you like the product, that is probably the most important starting point.

Best of luck.

Eh, bring it up with them -- if they still have insane expectations: leave. I could envision a situation or two annually where more than ~40 hours a week are expected at some firms, but constantly? That's just a nightmare waiting to blow up in their (and your) face. Burning people out is not the way to build a company.

I think you should have a candid conversation with him and the HR manager or equivalent (together) about the working hours mentioned in your contract and his expectations. Also ask feedback about the quality of your work. I'm sorry to say this relationship may already be poisoned and it might be difficult to revert it, even if you work the hours he's requiring. He may just be trying to take advantage of your situation (recent hire, recently relocated) or he's setting up some excuse for project delays (someone to blame).

I don't believe long-term crunch mode is effective. I've been burned by it before, so I would probably say that I will deliver more and better by working sane hours, and try and stick to that arrangement. If the situation doesn't improve you might want to shop around for another opportunity.

I get two impressions: (1) the PM is a recent hire too; (2) he's a bully.

Further questions: Did the PM interview you before you were hired? Can you talk to the person(s) who interviewed you?

Based on your additional comments to @pedalpete, I would suggest talking to key people further up the chain of command and clarifying what the real, tangible expectations are. Long hours of busy work != effective work.

I fear you may have added poison to your situation by revealing your freelancing work. It would have been better to keep that confidential.

I have seen fairly similar things, but have not worked in a start-up of nearly that size.

I also tend to see more demands made of younger, unmarried developers than older ones (not that the young guys are paid more! — probably the opposite is true), which is shitty and obviously not very fair.

1) Linked in request - ridiculous

2) Overtime - I am in similar situation myself. Working for a startup with over 30 staff. I haven't been asked to work overtime but it has been mentioned on many meetings - "We want to create team of people who would enjoy this work so much that they would work overtime, I mean come on we are startup people should be working overtime anyway". Please note, this is BS. Doesn't matter if you work for startup or corporation. At the end of the day, you are employee working for your own live and that means 8 hours for which you are rewarded by salary. It is completely illogical to limit your life by working overtime and get paid like any other person in other company. Yes, sometimes I enjoy current project so much, that I forget about time and leave work few hours later, hell sometimes I even open my laptop in the middle of night ad work on something if I really enjoy it. But overtime should NEVER be expectation. Your answer to them should be: If you expect me to work overtime on regular basis I expect to be paid over time rate for it or some other reward (such as share in company).

Just one more note about developer position in general. Doesn't matter what people say, developing is very creative job. It comes and goes in waves exactly like art, music and such. I am trying to actively fight for changing developers conditions in workplace for this reason. Take for example my job. I work 9am - 6pm every day. But there are days when I just don't get the vibe and I do all together 1 hour worth of work and lousy on top of it. Sometimes work goes well and I am into it whole day, but then I finish one part by 4pm and just cannot get myself start anything new til 6pm. In that case I should be just able to go home at 4 because I am no good for the rest of the day anyway. Same as now, it is already 8:24am and I am still at home writing this comment instead of being in subway on my way to work. I would do the same in office anyway...

Developers should have much looser schedule in my opinion. On the other hand of course every developer should be responsible and if there are (reasonable) deadlines they should know how to work hard to meet them.

1) a company of ~50 people doesn't sound like a start up to me, and calling themselves one just reeks of opportunism at the cost of the employees 2) there's plenty of work in Vancouver 3) as others have commented, constant crunch is neither healthy nor productive 4) talk it over with HR, if they continues to seem unreasonable, go somewhere else. Your mention of two others that came before you but left after a short time raises a red flag

Yes, it's normal. Unfortunately, startup companies in the 50-200 employee phase rank amongst the worst working situations.

I finished and grimly accept that I am in prison.

It's up to God.

God says... broad bemoaning problem senseless promising healeth foretelling ready uninjuriousness flame constrain disgraceful ungodlily prayer serpents taking accustomed flour ceases blade agreed pryers presence ever-present reconciliation Hereat

My guess is that something is up at the company that you don't know about, because no one in management talks frankly to the rank-and-file. The project manager has been put under pressure that he can't deal with, so he's lashing out with irrational and silly requests like the LinkedIn thing.

But why's he pressuring you to work more and not pressuring everyone else? Two possibilities: a) the thing he's being pressured about relates directly to your work - perhaps he promised someone the impossible on your behalf, or b) he already tried this with everybody else and knows he can't get away with it.

This is all normal enough stuff, sadly, but that still doesn't mean you should put up with it. There's better working situations out there and I'd personally begin quietly looking for one.

Employment is a two way street. Your employer is not doing you a favor. You have an economic benefit to give to your employer. Your employer has an economic benefit to give to you. The moment that relationship stops being economically beneficial to you, it's time to move on. Period. You are not a slave, and it is not a privilege to work at a startup even if some people want you to believe that.

There's a few places around Vancouver that I would avoid and seems like you found one of them....sorry to hear that.

As others have said the Linkedin issue is ridiculous, just change it to shut him up.

The issue of overtime is something else though, if this was never mentioned before then my spidey-sense would be tingling about how the future will go at this place. I'm obviously not familiar with your exact situation (do you really need the job etc) but if you can risk moving on then I would have a honest chat with the PM...if it sounds like a no go then I would just be ready to move on.

2 of my now friends started work at a place in Vancouver (seperately) and left within 3 weeks due to the unrealistic expectations.

Don't ever work for people who treat you like a slave, unless, perhaps, you're compensated like a master. Life's too short.

Approach everyone like your equal. If someone expects you to assume a subservient position, get the hell out. They will not change, you'll regret it months down the road. I speak of experience (in my case, 2 years down the road))

That said, someone may be riding the PM because he took your time estimates, then took off 15%, and now he's in trouble with his "boss". Try to find out why he is acting this way. Try to find out is he's treating other people the same way, and if not, why not.

I disagree with the HR talk thingy. Like any other bad relationship, a warning by a third party has never truly improved the relationship between the parties involved. Solve it with the guy, or draw your conclusions, ditch the loyalty, search for a new job, and walk away happy.

PS sometimes the act of going out there and looking for another position will make you feel more empowered.

Good luck. I'll repeat: life is short, don't waste it on toxic people.

How about working on your communication with your boss?

You said you had to leave at 5PM, did you leave at 5PM everyday for an entire week? Did you let your immediate manager know you would be leaving at 5PM because of personal issues?

Did you ask what hours were expected of you as an employee?

There could be a lot of reasons why your manager is treating you this way, perhaps he heard from someone that you worked with previously that you were not dedicated? The easiest way to resolve this is to sit down and have a open conversation about expectations on both sides. After that conversation you can both make clear decisions about whether or not its a good fit (though don't say thats the purpose of the conversation).

Sounds like an office bully.

If you want to manage the situation, here's what I would say (or wish I would say) in your situation:

"You seem to want me to spend a lot of effort showing my commitment to the job (LinkedIn/hours) but that sort of babysitting is exactly what I want to avoid by working at a startup. I've been here 6 weeks and honestly I feel like I'm still getting integrated into the team and familiar with the product. If you want to get the best out of me you'll have to trust that I'm capable of managing my time and energy to get my work done efficiently."

"Not being 100% in it" is subtle code for "I reject working with you." It's probably nothing you are doing. Think how a little kid would react. He is trying to rationalize in his mind that it's actually you that doesn't want to work with him. It's a sort of "its not me its you" psychopathic characteristic that comes about because a person refuses to take responsibility for their own negative attitude. The person doesn't like you and its YOUR fault. Advice: don't waste too much time drawing this one out.

Change jobs. There are lots of opportunities here in Vancouver and many employers who frown on overtime because they know that it leads to writing a tangled mess of code that is a nightmare to maintain.

Seriously, leave the Linkedin profile alone and start shopping your resume around. If you are downtown there is enough density of software shops that you could just walk around with a pile of resumes and knock on doors.

Talk to lots of people. Talk, talk, talk.

By any chance, is he being sarcastic ? I myself sometimes find it very hard with some people in figuring out whether they are just joking or are serious. Even when they joke, they just have a straight face and say it seriously.

From the look of it, I feel the manager is just pulling a joke on you. Specially with the LinkedIn stuff.... But maybe I'm wrong.

I think this is just piss-poor management.

1) I could put on my LinkedIn page I'm a professional Dolphin Waxer and it would be f--k all to do with them.

2) As long as all your deliverables/assigned tasks on the plan are on track then I don't see what the problem is, unless it is one of "perception management" which is largely nonsense. Of course, if you have stuff that is running late and you're not trying to bringing it back on schedule that is a different issue.

To sum up - the PM sounds like a dick.

Off hand, It sounds like your project manager was talking without really thinking about it. These expectations sound kinda unprofessional. It's his job as a product manager to motivate you, but that doesn't mean he knows how to actually do that.

Personally I think being 100% into your job indicates a lack of a healthy balance. It's called overtime for a reason, and repeated studies have shown that a 40 hour work week is optimal, and that hours above that may create a temporary increase in productivity, but a long term decrease if maintained.

I'd broach the topic with a friendly coworker and get a read on the situation, and use that in your dealing with your product manager.

I'd take a look at Andrew Carnegie's how to make friends and influence people. It's a bit dated, but an easy read that will give you some suggestions as to how to think about dealing with your manager.

You need to figure out, why is your project manager saying these things? What are his/her ultimate goals, beyond the intermediate things you mentioned? What does he/she value, as a person?

Maybe he's/she's saying these things because he/she wants to feel useful. Maybe he/she is under pressure from his boss to improve productivity, and he/she is going about it in a backwards way. Maybe they are squeezing you because your new, and they thinks they can get more out of you.

Ultimately, you may have to figure out if you want to take on additional responsibilities, and if so, what do you feel is fair compensation for such efforts, and if not, how to deal with these suggestions. But if you have an issue with them, it's better to say something sooner rather than later.

My guess is that this person has no idea that you are this bothered by what he/she said, and that you feel disrespected. They may not care or may take offense if you approach the issue in those terms, hence the Carnegie book, so you can use what they actually care about to get them to see where you are coming from and try to resolve things in a mutually satisfactory manner.

If you deliver, it doesn't matter what creed the company is. Delivery is the most important thing on a proyect, if someone is too good at work than in 2hs a week he/she delivers and then they use their time on other things out of the office, then it shouldn't be a problem. In fact, it would be a miracle.

If they see this as a problem, then their problem isn't productivity, its a devotion problem. For devotion, you can work for Jesus and the high lord and spend 24hs of your life on that kind of… creed.

This guy needs to stay late and do his own job. Any company can claim they are a startup and squeeze their employees for all of their time, but that does not make it worthwhile.

I, personally, refuse to work extra hours. I've burnt too many years with too little pay to do it ever again. If I cannot do it in the time allotted. I will get a good night's sleep and go at it hard the next day.

You've already sussed out that this is ridiculous. Just a little background.

In 2013 there is no excuse for a culture of shaming people into working long hours all the time. You should have a culture focused on measuring effectiveness. The "100% in it" sounds like brogramming, or I guess bro-duct managing.

If your co-workers are not pulling those kinds of hours, then presumably this guy's threats are empty, or don't apply for some reason. You should try to figure out why.

Either those guys are already planning exits (cashing out/believe startup is doomed). Or maybe they just don't report to your boss. Actually, are you sure you report to this person? Often techies set up companies so that direct reporting goes through a tech hierarchy, although a politically savvy product manager will try to imply to a young and impressionable hacker that they are the boss. You mention elsewhere that it's all kinda loose, but I think you probably do have an official boss who does your performance evaluation, somewhere.

I'm also in Vancouver. I've been around the block a few times although I'm just getting a feel for this city. Anyway feel free to hit me up for connections or advice. Confidentiality assured.

LinkedIn is so creepy, and I totally resent people pressuring me into it. Kool Aid.