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Ask HN: Just lost my year long placement because they have no work. Begging for advice

20 points by Tarks ↗ HN
I'm a student programmer (mainly c++/c# exp) currently living in England, my placement office only found very ill fitting placements (e.g IT Manager) for someone only interested in becoming a great developer (I wanted a placement where I could learn from more experienced programmers). I found a company that I thought would be great and managed to go through the whole interview process etc, then at the very last second said they can't take me on.

I'm now faced with difficult decisions. My options are:

1) Go straight into my final year at university.

2) Continue desperately looking for a placement, it needs to start in the next two months to be considered part of my course.

3) Try to get funding and continue work on one of my entrepreneurial side-projects full-time for a year, then go into my final year.

As you can imagine I'm a bit scared and annoyed, mainly at myself. I wasn't stupid enough to willingly put all my eggs in one basket, I just couldn't find any more baskets. I even had to tell my best friends at university to sign for a house without me because they'd already waited too long just in case.

I doubt 3 is a good idea, I have no cash flow and no savings, so if worst comes to worst I have no way to support myself. I also really don't want to go straight into my final year because I'll be foregoing a great opportunity and I'm dying to actually work with other developers (yes I'm looking at open source projects to satisfy that).

I've been searching every job website I can find and emailing anyone who seems like they're in a position in which they could help.

I'd love to be somewhere where I can be mentored.

I know, I know, I'm a whiny little kid who didn't get what he wanted and now expects other people to help. I'll gladly take that stigma if I get just one useful comment helping me move forward.

40 comments

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Allocator2008
Given the options listed above, provided option 1 is financially viable for you, I might suggest going with that. I know that may be disappointing, just going on to the final year of university, but that might be the safe bet.

Also, QA is a good "entry point" for aspiring developers. People transfer to and from QA from development all the time. I am in the automation side of QA, so I am kind of in that gray nether world between QA and development, since my job is to develop, but the deliverables I work on are test scripts, rather than the product deliverable. So if you are starting out, just getting a QA job is at least a foot in the door.

So I might say, that, to play it safe, given your current situation you might want to go ahead and plan on just continuing with university - if I am not mistaken I think this is still largely subsidized by Whitehall since in theory the subsidy is offset by the graduate tax - correct me if I am wrong there, but if I am right, this should be viable for you. But then, also, on the side, I'd keep my eye out still for gigs, even if just part-time, or looking towards when you graduate, and I would keep QA in mind as an option, since if you do well in that and demonstrate your technical competencies, often there is opportunity to segue to more technical stuff in QA (i.e., automation), and from there, often into development. Good luck.

Tarks
Option 1 is financially viable and probably what I'll end up doing. Looking for entry points from which I could transition upwards is something I will definitely look at after graduation.

Thankyou !

zxcvb
As long as you dont stay in Q&A for too long then you're ok. Otherwise you risked getting labelled as the Q&A guy and that will stick.
sachinag
It would be helpful if someone explained this placement thing to us Yankees. We have summer internships, but the notion of a placement strikes me as a fundamentally different beast. (Googling failed me.)

The standard American response would be to work on open source projects and focus on getting good grades in your last year to make yourself attractive to full-time employers upon graduation.

Tarks
Some universities offer what's known as a sandwich degree. in which at the end of your second year you have the option of spending a year in industry, the idea is that the student gets real world experience (and is able to put this on a CV) and the employer gets a very willing young worker to help with tasks. You find that after graduation a lot of companies re-hire the students they had on placement.
sachinag
Ah - it functions the same as a summer internship between junior and senior years here in the States, although it is for a full year.

Question - are your college degrees three years or four years? Ours are generally four, called freshman, sophomore, junior, and senior.

Tarks
As far as I'm aware they're almost universally 3 years (unless they include a placement year). I'm basing this on anecdotal evidence such as what I remember from applying to different universities and the fact that most of my friends are graduating a year earlier than myself.

We also don't have nicknames for the years here, though I wouldn't be surprised if we start adopting it, we already have an official event called "freshers week" in the first week of the first year.

suhail
It's basically called Co-Op in the U.S.
nop
Enlighten a European. Is there some reason you put extra focus on getting good grades the last year, do employers focus mainly on the last year grades?

(On a related note, I have to find a placement of open source nature for my second year as it's my major. :P)

Tarks
As a rule it's because the years have different weights assigned to them, so as an example first year counts towards about 20% of the final degree classification, second year 35% and third year 45%

EDIT:

Just to help avoid confusion I'll reiterate that this is talking about universities in England

sachinag
This is not the way it works at any reputable college I've ever heard of here in the States. I've been on many recruiting teams and cumulative GPA is always done as a straight average over credit hours (which are typically evenly distributed over each of the standard four years).
zxcvb
Most UK universities don't do it like that.

Usually, the first year is worth nothing, the second year is 1/3 and the final year is 2/3.

Sometimes you do an extra year inbetween the second and thid year if you take a year out in indsutry.

Also, college is a different thing to University in the UK.

sachinag
You always want to do well, but if you don't do well early, you can at least point to improvement in your later semesters as you "got the hang of" college. This improvement is also helpful for graduate schools, although a magic improvement senior year is not as good as steady improvement over the years.

Traditionally, full-time hiring is complete for good employees (in all disciplines) by the winter break of the fourth (senior) year, where there's some clause that you can't get terrible grades in your last semester.

sidmitra
In India, during your final year or maybe 3rd yr of your engineering degree, lots of companies come to campus to recruit. They take written tests, a whole set of interviews of potential candidates. In my Uni, you're allowed to apply to a maximum of 40 companies(the list of all companies is known beforehand). You're usually allowed to say yes to only 1 company and you're out of the placement cell for your batch. This is how recruitment works in india, and you have a job when you graduate. Infact, a year before you graduate. But quite a lot of companies in these trying times (Gulp!) gave offer letters but then took them back.

Anyhow, to answer the original question: it would be better to start with a smaller venture. There are loads of startup that would be willing to hire bright people. And in my opinion these are the best places to start out. You have more responsibilities, smaller teams so better vision of the effect your work has, infact all in all more stress. Look at websites like SnapTalent or ask ppl here in HN if they have some ventures that suit your skill set.

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TomOfTTB
Honestly, and I don't mean to be rude here, but I think you're living in a dream world right now. The chances of getting funded at school age or finding the perfect job given the current economic climate are next to nil.

If you can afford to finish school I'd do that. Otherwise I'd take what you can get job wise and ride out the storm (while obviously keeping your eyes open in case you get really lucky and the perfect job comes along).

Tarks
I completely agree, which is why I'm looking for neither. I don't think it's too crazy to be looking for a place where I can learn from other people practising the same craft.
zxcvb
You're way to late, good placements are usually gone by April, relying on the careers office was a massive mistake, it's far better to apply to all the big companies around December time. Any later and people like me have already taken the places. Although, at my my Uni right now (London) there are more places available than good students to fill them. Try applying to something in London and move into the city for a year.
zxcvb
He's not living in a dream world. It's easy for a good student to land a job in one of the big companies right now (accenture, ibm, microsoft, campgemini etc) that's what I've just done.

The chances of him not being able to afford to finish school are pretty much nill, in the UK the gov pay for pretty much all your University fees and you pay them back over the next 25 years after graduation. This make Uni affordable to most people.

The only thing that was right in your enitre post was the face he won't get funded for a business idea.

What's happening in the UK right now is very different to whats happening in the US.

iamcalledrob
I'm sure you can find a startup somewhere in London who will be more than happy to have an extra pair of hands around the place. Find startups and start calling.

This is assuming you're not looking for a paid placement. Paid placements are going to be hard to come by, because companies want to minimise expenditure right now, and a student is a bit of an unknown.

You might be able to claim travel expenses, but I wouldn't count on more than that.

zxcvb
More paid placements than good students to take them right now in London, please get your facts right.

The economy is not affected placements much at all, if anything cheap labour is good thing right now. Of course, you have to be the best to land these gigs.

amirnathoo
We're looking for a C++ developer to help us develop WebMynd for Internet Explorer. Especially interested if you've had any experience with browser helper objects. We can offer some salary, generous options and travel to San Francisco if things work out.

If you're interested, get in touch using the email address in my profile.

[dead] hexane
You have no money, no customers, no job, no experience and no degree.

Finish school.

lleger
Reading through the comments, it's clear that you've already gotten some good advice. Instead of answering your question, I thought that this quote might be helpful by providing insight into solving your problem.

"Remembering that I’ll be dead soon is the most important tool I’ve ever encountered to help me make the big choices in life. Because almost everything—all external expectations, all pride, all fear of embarrassment or failure—these things just fall away in the face of death, leaving only what is truly important. Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose. You are already naked. There is no reason not to follow your heart."

Don't think that I just dismissed your question and posted some obscure quote (it's actually Steve Jobs from his Stanford commencement speech). I've weighed this carefully because it's clear that you're at a crux; this is an important time and I'd like to impart as much as I can to you.

But, Steve just said it so much better.

Tarks, you really just need to follow your heart. And yeah, that sounds like a trite mantra, but I think that you'll find yourself in a much better position if you take the risk and do what you want—don't live in the dogma of society. Take action and do what you've been telling yourself you want all along. Generally, our heart really knows what we want better than we do. And when we follow what we want, things tend to have a way of working themselves out.

Sure, keep your perspective; understand how the real world works. But just do what you feel is right.

I hope this helps; good luck to you, man.

Tarks
Thankyou, I'd lost sight of this a little. teaching someone how to deal with a type of situation rather than a specific one is always useful in the long run.

If anyone else appreciates this type of thing then Randy Pauche's "Last Lecture" is very inspirational http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji5_MqicxSo

bensummers
As you're here you're probably interested in startups. Have you started going to all the startup events in London and asking around? (most events are free - example: http://www.meetup.com/minibar/ )

There are lots of startups around who need people to write code. Some might even be able to offer a position for a year.

I've been thinking about these industrial placements from the other side, as a potential employer. As a startup though, the problem is minimising the risk of getting someone who's not going to be productive.

Tarks: there are no contact details in your profile. Do consider getting in touch with me.

Tarks
I'd LOVE to go to those but I'm studying in Middlesbrough, I'm doing something similar but there aren't nearly as many opportunities here.

I've added contact details to my profile, but I can't find any on yours (email isn't public), if all else fails I'll email you through the oneIs contact page or twitter.

bensummers
I assumed people would use the contact form, but I can see why you wouldn't. Updated my profile accordingly.

Will drop you an email.

sjf
I don't really see the value of a placement year. Whether you do a placement or not, in two years from now you'll still have the same result, a degree plus one years experience. Except if you worked after graduation you will be paid as a graduate, not an intern. Why delay graduation so you can get paid less to do work they only trust an intern to do?
zxcvb
Generally good companies give interns real world work in the UK. So much so, the teams you work with may not even know you are an intern.

A year in industry is what secures good jobs for alot of good people. Coming out of Uni without a placement in the UK makes it harder for you to land a good job as you are seen as having no experience, but with a year in indsutry you have real world experience plus a degree, it sounds like you know someone that had a crap placement, dont that that skew your thoughts on placements, there are alot of excellent ones in the UK

v4us
I tihnk there are two options

1) Go to grad school (or just become a Research assistant) and start to work with proff. If you love science and you may resist of depression, it will give you funding, intresting (but really hard) work, mentoring and etc.

2) Continue work on your own enerpreneurial project.

zc
Just make the decision yourself. You've probably already made it. If you really want us to make the decision for you, you should have made a poll.
babo
Go straight into your final year at university. That's a right time for studies, get a degree or you will regret later. There is more then coding to be a good programmer.
randomtask
First of all fair deuce. I wish I had the motivation you do when I was in your position.

My suggestion is to take a year out anyway even if you don't find something and work a part time job while doing some open source development. This way you will get the experience of working on a large development project with people. When it comes time to interview you will have code that has made it into software that your prospective employer might even use. Also when they google you your name will appear associated with this work.

The successful applicants for the Google SoC have been announced already and there are a whole load of good projects that didn't get picked. You could pick one, approach the team, and tell them you're willing to work on it if they'll mentor you a bit.

pclark
we work out of red gate softwares (cambridge, microsoft tools, red-gate.com) offices, if you're good (and I'll trust that you are) I'll happily attempt to forward your CV to someone relevant. email is in my profile. Can't hurt, right?

oh and if you know ruby well, include that as we might be able to help you.

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pclark
Sandwich years are really beneficial to students. You're far more likely to get a "real" job when you graduate.

If you graduate.

A really common problem (?) with sandwich years is that the student is so good, and enjoying actually working that he doesn't want to return to university to finish his degree. Doing a year at a fun company makes the final year drag like a bitch.

warfangle
Heh. I'm facing a similar conundrum. I dropped out of community college to move out of my home town, and have since worked at some amazing companies. I really should go back to school to get my bachelor's, but not only am I too busy, but I'm afraid I'll be bored out of my mind... at least by the <300 level stuff. Eventually I'll get back... when I'm not working at two startups.
pclark
why should you go back to school?
warfangle
I don't want to spend my entire life developing software, actually. Eventually I want to transition to authorship of the fictive.