> You don’t need Hacker School, App Academy or one of those other organizations that trades their knowledge for your hard earned skrilla.
Hacker School is free. Essentially, it's a 3-month, self-directed program but you're surrounded by dozens of like-minded individuals and some incredibly talented veterans from the industry.
So they have a vested interest in your subsequent earnings. Wow, on first blush, I think all schools should have a vested interest in your subsequent earnings.
That, like your initial assertion, isn't really true.
Hacker School doesn't take a segment of your earnings either. They try to get you a job at then end they take a recruiting commission from whoever hires you, but nothing from the student.
In fact, I don't know of a single school that does this. gSchool refunds your tuition if you don't find a job. Flatiron School refunds a portion if you take a job through one of their partners. No one, as far as I know, takes a portion of student's salary beyond the tuition.
I made this same discovery the summer before enrolling in bschool and then promptly dropped out of my class. it didn't make sense to take on the debt once I determined I really enjoyed building software (and was good at it).
I wish MBA's would knock it off with their everything is easy meme. Yes - software, including apps, can be created in two months. In fact we can write them in two hours, or take two years; it depends. Buried in your post is that your partner split so you spent 24x7 obsessed on coding which, IMO, is the right way to learn, and sometimes even the right way to work (in bursts at least; doing that for too long leads to -- in MBA speak -- massively diminishing ROI for your time). In any event congratulations on getting your app out, and welcome to unwritten secret society of computer programmers who have published software.
>> in MBA speak -- massively diminishing ROI for your time
I don't know any MBAs who speak like that, myself included. The only people I've encountered who speak like that are consultants and salespeople who don't have MBAs.
Having said that, I don't live in the USA, so maybe Americans with MBAs are a very different beast.
As much as people here may like to malign MBAs, I don't understand what the MBA has to do with anything. A smart go-getter made an app in less than two months.
Disclaimer: I am a student at General Assembly WDI in Santa Monica, and I am also looking to go to Hack Reactor in San Francisco when this is completed.
I totally agree you DO NOT need to go to these programs. Everything that they teach is definitely out there for you to learn on your own. I started to get interested in this stuff last year working on a start-up/project and I like these schools for a couple reasons;
1. I get access to instructors. Because I am a "noob" I get flustered when I spend 2-3 hours looking for an answer. 65% of the time, Stackoverflow has the answer. But for the other 35% that needs an in depth examination, having an instructor 10 feet away from me for 9 hours a day is incredible.
2. Employer confidence. I believe the best way to get fucking good at this "craft/trade" if you will, is to be gainfully employed where you get paid to spend in excess of 40 hours a week working on your craft. There is no doubt you can get a job without these programs by teaching yourself, building some shit, making a nice github and applying for entry level/intern level dev jobs. But employers like seeing you came from these programs. It's a "stamp of approval" if you will. Companies take a chance on hiring junior devs, and these programs offer some piece of mind being "hey, this person was good enough to get in this program, and has spent 12 weeks being trained by these other qualified people".
3. Network. I have had the absolute pleasure of meeting 20 other incredibly smart, driven, talented, and fun people. I get to be surrounded, pushed, and inspired by these people everyday 5 days a week, 9-12 hours a day, for 12 weeks.
4. Teaching you how to learn. This is huge for me. People on the outside seem to say that these programs make people "one trick ponies" who only know how to do some rails CRUD app. But that is really not true. The biggest thing with this program (and others) is it teaches you how to learn this stuff. Rails will be gone in a couple years replaced by something new. All this shit is always changing; it's our job as web devs to stay on top of it, and adapt to survive. Skills like asking the right questions, reading documentation, where to go when you're stuck etc.
These are just some of the benefits I can think of off the top of my head. These are not for everyone, but it has helped me immensely and love doing this. It should also be noted, I am 21 and dropped out of school to go to this.
Edit; The title changed. Originally this comment was to note on the original title of "whether app academy/DBC/HR/Hacker School etc is worth it". My argument was for why I think, in my opinion, these programs are worth it. Didn't want this taken out of context.
I made five-page web sites when I was 15. I had published code, marketing (business cards!), customers, and more money than I would have gotten had I worked the help desk.
The point of business school, for the most part, is for people who work in large bureaucratic organizations to get a pay bump at the middle management level.
But contrary to the MBA's are idiots stereotype, most MBAs don't flaunt their education or turn into "House of Lies"-style management consulting idiots after getting their degrees either.
I'm glad someone brought this up. Someone might be able to start a successful solo business venture without any formal training. But that is very different from being an executive or having some administrative job in a medium or larger-sized company (I am assuming). The guy that started the solo business has that experience, great - but he's only got that perspective of being a business administrator. Do you need formal training to do most of the jobs that MBA's do? Maybe not - but the person who has only done that one solo business probably does not have enough perspective on that either.
In this case, I don't know if the author is only talking about building that one first app, apps in general or programming in general (probably just apps, I reckon). But if the audience is non-programmers who gets the impression that programming is just about "winging it" and that formal education is totally optional#, then it only offers a perspective from a very limited vantage point.
#this could be a valid opinion, but only really interesting to me if it came from an experienced programmer.
Making your own app where you are the only coder - there is no need for "formal training". You can slap together a glob of code, make it good enough to work and deploy without issue. "Even an MBA can do it" apparently.
The need for formal training in software development comes when you need to work with other people on a project far bigger then your tiny piece of it. If everyone on a development team does their own thing, the result is a mess.
Although, even if everyone is standardized and follows the plan, most software still results in a mess given enough time. Not sure what I'm concluding here. :/
Uhh, people get an MBA to be something like a vice president at Goldman Sachs on Wall Street, or a consultant at McKinsey, or maybe even eventually a CEO of a major corporation with hundreds of millions in revenue, not to run a lawn mowing business.
Lot of comments on HN, Reddit, and elsewhere criticizing the title ("what does the MBA thing have to do with anything?", "who cares if its an MBA?", etc.), which I think is a little ironic because the overwhelming mentality on tech forums is that MBAs are idiots with more money than brains that get paid absurd amounts of money to play golf and talk about synergy who could never do what we do.
I'm glad that more traditionally non-tech people are being exposed to the wonders of programming. I'd be equally ecstatic if the title read 'English major builds app in less than 2 months.'
I think it's a little unfair to assume that MBAs are non-technical. You can enter an MBA program with any undergraduate degree. When I did mine between 1992-1994, my cohort had a pretty good cross-section of individuals with undergrads in just about every subject area, from liberal arts to engineering.
The only interesting part is that he did it - without any previous knowledge - in two months. Whether he is a janitor, MBA or photographer is not relevant at all. The title itself could be seen as an insult - that "even an MBA can do it". Maybe it's this mindset that inspired the title?
The usual characteristic that is brought up when somebody accomplishes something noteworthy given their background is time - 2 months in this case, a 12 year old person in another case.
I was bothered by the title too, but reading you and the OP, I realized that in the same way MBA is a generalization that generates both bad (arrogance) and good (intelligence) impressions, so is the word "hacker".
And YC is built upon the idea that make hackers develop business and entrepreneurial skills is a good thing, so why not the idea of making MBAs develop programming skills is something equally good?
Myself, I am not a MBA, but I related to this stereotype more than I relate to a hacker (I studied Economics and my carreer is on non-profit management). And I learned to code and created a web app, a B2C SaaS, in 5 months. From zero knowledge to publish the site to first sale in 5 months.
I would not put a lable like that on me, even less claim bragging rights on this, but I think both me and the author are good examples that people may easily and quickly change whole carreers that were decided when we were less than 20 years old. And that is a good think.
That a hacker may hustle and achieve to create a business from their code and a MBA may hustle and achieve to create a code from the business he imagined, are both sides of a new and welcomed coin. Why not celebrate them both?
The question was ridiculous in the first place: "Can a MBA design & develop an iOS app in < 2 months?"
Well, yeah. Duh.
What value does the answer give us? Nothing. It literally gives us nothing to take home.
Anyone capable of starting from scratch and in 2 months learning Objective C enough to successfully launch an app has my respect. The fact they have an MBA is meaningless.
The title (and question) is clearly link bait and should be judged for being so. It adds unnecessary conflict to an otherwise inspiring story.
I chose to do a two year MBA from Babson College from 2007-2009. I had worked at a medium-sized tech company for 3.5 years prior. My undergraduate degree is in Computer Engineering. Today I run a startup.
I have felt strong anti-MBA sentiment here and elsewhere in the startup community. Some VCs go out of their way to lampoon the idea of an MBA. If the author of this article has experienced a similar sentiment, it makes a lot of sense for this article to be titled this way.
If the prevailing mode of thought is that MBAs aren't useful, or aren't technical, MBAs must present fact-based argument against this.
I learned a ton about working with people, leadership, finance and organizational design in my MBA. I also learned to write Facebook applications[1], cooperated with a friend at Rice to release the first Baby Names iPhone application.[2] (I ran xcode on a hackintosh) I learned a ton about how to turn an idea into a real world thing.
Sometimes things I learned during my MBA offers context to problems faced at startups. However, when I say that things I've learned during my MBA contributed to reasoning on a particular recommendation, I've learned this sometimes detracts from my arguments more than add. That is frustrating.
>> If the prevailing mode of thought is that MBAs aren't useful, or aren't technical, MBAs must present fact-based argument against this.
As with anything, YMMV.
My program overlapped heavily with content in my business oriented (but not actually business administration) undergrad social sciences degree. I didn't get nearly as much out of my program as my peers who came from sciences, technical or arts undergraduate programs did. I actually felt like my undergrad program was superior in many facets to the business school I attended. That's not to say I didn't get anything out of it, but I found most of the first year mandatory stuff to be of much lesser value than the second year optional courses I took.
> If the prevailing mode of thought is that MBAs aren't useful, or aren't technical, MBAs must present fact-based argument against this.
Part of the problem (at least to the HN crowd), is that a lot of the problems MBAs solve can't be shared on Github and/or can't be shared outside of the company (because it would violate NDAs, trade secrets, etc) and so it seems that MBAs are worthless.
I'm halfway done with my MBA (having come from the software development world) and one of the biggest adjustments I've had to personally make is to realize that I've gotten work done (and enjoy the associated sense of accomplishment) even if I don't have a set of commits to show at the end of the day.
>a lot of the problems MBAs solve can't be shared on Github and/or can't be shared outside of the company (because it would violate NDAs, trade secrets, etc) and so it seems that MBAs are worthless.
There is definitely something to this. While programmers do perform undocumented effort, at the end of the day they still have the opportunity to commit or push to production. In that sense, proof of work in manifested by looking at Github.
Using email and phone calls alone a business manager can improve a key relationship or be influenced in a way that will lead to a major impact on a product's future, and there is just no way to express this in a similarly auditable fashion.
Running the business of a startup is much about managing the flow of energy. Energy flows do not have line numbers. You can only feel the effects daily, or wait until a major milestone like a funding event or growth spurt to clearly evaluate success.
I was an art major that learned Objective-C and launched an app in 3 months (calculated the most drunk for your buck in my college town - https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/red-cup/id477350446?mt=8). Now I have a job creating iOS apps for a living with 2 years of Objective-C experience, and tinker with different languages and side-projects as well. As an artist, I've always been a builder and maker, just now I'm using code and silicon as my media more than paint or clay.
which I think is a little ironic because the overwhelming mentality on tech forums is that MBAs are idiots with more money than brains that get paid absurd amounts of money to play golf and talk about synergy who could never do what we do.
We've all seen this, of course. As an MBA, it makes me chuckle. As an engineer it makes me sad. If there's one mindset that could be stand to be purged from the development world it is that developers are so damn smart.
The insecurity over intellectual capability is so strong in the software engineering profession that it's debilitating. Developers - get over yourselves. There are lots of smart people out there and they don't all look like you. Embrace this fact and you will be freed. Once you recognize that you cannot even define "smart", constructing your identity around being smart loses its luster.
It originally said: Is Hacker School/App Academy/ect worth it? (MBA builds an app in less than 2 months)
And was posted to have a conversation about whether Hacker School and programs like that are worth it, letting people share their opinions. The MBA aspect was meant for context.
By editing the title to what it is above, the focus becomes something completely different.
It originally said: Is Hacker School/App Academy/ect worth it? (MBA builds an app in less than 2 months)
Let's flip that to: Is B school worth it? (Engineer builds a business in less than 2 months).
I agree with what jmduke and damoncali had to say about this, but I'm pretty sure Hacker School provides a lot more value than the ability to build an iOS app in less than 2 months.
I have an MBA and I have created a (very small) business (https://realpropertyexchanges.com/) within two months during late nights and weekends. But I also have a family with small children, a great "day job" and other activities and interests (including some other development: https://github.com/mattchoinski).
Just from my limited participation in this community, I sense that several other people are doing great things with limited resources.
It's great that the author accomplished so much, but he's not alone.
Shouldn't come as a surprise. Most productive software developers I know don't have engineering or comsci backgrounds. Programming, in general, is about problem solving.
If you did this project and enjoyed the time spent, there is a good chance you are really a programmer that just happens to have an MBA. I hope you continue down that path because we need people with drive like you. I wish my first program was this good.
Nitpick, but its worth pointing out that Hacker School as a program and an institution is a very different beast than App Academy, Dev Bootcamp, etc. and is somewhat mischaracterized in the article.
53 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 119 ms ] threadHacker School is free. Essentially, it's a 3-month, self-directed program but you're surrounded by dozens of like-minded individuals and some incredibly talented veterans from the industry.
Few of these schools are free. Most supplement a course fee with a placement fee they receive by acting as your recruiter.
Hacker School doesn't take a segment of your earnings either. They try to get you a job at then end they take a recruiting commission from whoever hires you, but nothing from the student.
In fact, I don't know of a single school that does this. gSchool refunds your tuition if you don't find a job. Flatiron School refunds a portion if you take a job through one of their partners. No one, as far as I know, takes a portion of student's salary beyond the tuition.
I don't know any MBAs who speak like that, myself included. The only people I've encountered who speak like that are consultants and salespeople who don't have MBAs.
Having said that, I don't live in the USA, so maybe Americans with MBAs are a very different beast.
I totally agree you DO NOT need to go to these programs. Everything that they teach is definitely out there for you to learn on your own. I started to get interested in this stuff last year working on a start-up/project and I like these schools for a couple reasons;
1. I get access to instructors. Because I am a "noob" I get flustered when I spend 2-3 hours looking for an answer. 65% of the time, Stackoverflow has the answer. But for the other 35% that needs an in depth examination, having an instructor 10 feet away from me for 9 hours a day is incredible.
2. Employer confidence. I believe the best way to get fucking good at this "craft/trade" if you will, is to be gainfully employed where you get paid to spend in excess of 40 hours a week working on your craft. There is no doubt you can get a job without these programs by teaching yourself, building some shit, making a nice github and applying for entry level/intern level dev jobs. But employers like seeing you came from these programs. It's a "stamp of approval" if you will. Companies take a chance on hiring junior devs, and these programs offer some piece of mind being "hey, this person was good enough to get in this program, and has spent 12 weeks being trained by these other qualified people".
3. Network. I have had the absolute pleasure of meeting 20 other incredibly smart, driven, talented, and fun people. I get to be surrounded, pushed, and inspired by these people everyday 5 days a week, 9-12 hours a day, for 12 weeks.
4. Teaching you how to learn. This is huge for me. People on the outside seem to say that these programs make people "one trick ponies" who only know how to do some rails CRUD app. But that is really not true. The biggest thing with this program (and others) is it teaches you how to learn this stuff. Rails will be gone in a couple years replaced by something new. All this shit is always changing; it's our job as web devs to stay on top of it, and adapt to survive. Skills like asking the right questions, reading documentation, where to go when you're stuck etc.
These are just some of the benefits I can think of off the top of my head. These are not for everyone, but it has helped me immensely and love doing this. It should also be noted, I am 21 and dropped out of school to go to this.
Edit; The title changed. Originally this comment was to note on the original title of "whether app academy/DBC/HR/Hacker School etc is worth it". My argument was for why I think, in my opinion, these programs are worth it. Didn't want this taken out of context.
What's the point of business school?
What's the point of engineering school?
Software dev is reduced as easily to an overly simplistic implementation as business savvy is. I think we're making the same point.
But contrary to the MBA's are idiots stereotype, most MBAs don't flaunt their education or turn into "House of Lies"-style management consulting idiots after getting their degrees either.
In this case, I don't know if the author is only talking about building that one first app, apps in general or programming in general (probably just apps, I reckon). But if the audience is non-programmers who gets the impression that programming is just about "winging it" and that formal education is totally optional#, then it only offers a perspective from a very limited vantage point.
#this could be a valid opinion, but only really interesting to me if it came from an experienced programmer.
The need for formal training in software development comes when you need to work with other people on a project far bigger then your tiny piece of it. If everyone on a development team does their own thing, the result is a mess.
Although, even if everyone is standardized and follows the plan, most software still results in a mess given enough time. Not sure what I'm concluding here. :/
Edit: I see now that you were being sarcastic.
I'm glad that more traditionally non-tech people are being exposed to the wonders of programming. I'd be equally ecstatic if the title read 'English major builds app in less than 2 months.'
The usual characteristic that is brought up when somebody accomplishes something noteworthy given their background is time - 2 months in this case, a 12 year old person in another case.
Myself, I am not a MBA, but I related to this stereotype more than I relate to a hacker (I studied Economics and my carreer is on non-profit management). And I learned to code and created a web app, a B2C SaaS, in 5 months. From zero knowledge to publish the site to first sale in 5 months.
I would not put a lable like that on me, even less claim bragging rights on this, but I think both me and the author are good examples that people may easily and quickly change whole carreers that were decided when we were less than 20 years old. And that is a good think.
That a hacker may hustle and achieve to create a business from their code and a MBA may hustle and achieve to create a code from the business he imagined, are both sides of a new and welcomed coin. Why not celebrate them both?
*work in
Well, yeah. Duh.
What value does the answer give us? Nothing. It literally gives us nothing to take home.
Anyone capable of starting from scratch and in 2 months learning Objective C enough to successfully launch an app has my respect. The fact they have an MBA is meaningless.
The title (and question) is clearly link bait and should be judged for being so. It adds unnecessary conflict to an otherwise inspiring story.
I have felt strong anti-MBA sentiment here and elsewhere in the startup community. Some VCs go out of their way to lampoon the idea of an MBA. If the author of this article has experienced a similar sentiment, it makes a lot of sense for this article to be titled this way.
If the prevailing mode of thought is that MBAs aren't useful, or aren't technical, MBAs must present fact-based argument against this.
I learned a ton about working with people, leadership, finance and organizational design in my MBA. I also learned to write Facebook applications[1], cooperated with a friend at Rice to release the first Baby Names iPhone application.[2] (I ran xcode on a hackintosh) I learned a ton about how to turn an idea into a real world thing.
Sometimes things I learned during my MBA offers context to problems faced at startups. However, when I say that things I've learned during my MBA contributed to reasoning on a particular recommendation, I've learned this sometimes detracts from my arguments more than add. That is frustrating.
[1] http://banagale.com/my-first-database-refactoring.htm
[2] http://neutrinosllc.com/products/iphone/applications/babynam...
As with anything, YMMV.
My program overlapped heavily with content in my business oriented (but not actually business administration) undergrad social sciences degree. I didn't get nearly as much out of my program as my peers who came from sciences, technical or arts undergraduate programs did. I actually felt like my undergrad program was superior in many facets to the business school I attended. That's not to say I didn't get anything out of it, but I found most of the first year mandatory stuff to be of much lesser value than the second year optional courses I took.
Part of the problem (at least to the HN crowd), is that a lot of the problems MBAs solve can't be shared on Github and/or can't be shared outside of the company (because it would violate NDAs, trade secrets, etc) and so it seems that MBAs are worthless.
I'm halfway done with my MBA (having come from the software development world) and one of the biggest adjustments I've had to personally make is to realize that I've gotten work done (and enjoy the associated sense of accomplishment) even if I don't have a set of commits to show at the end of the day.
There is definitely something to this. While programmers do perform undocumented effort, at the end of the day they still have the opportunity to commit or push to production. In that sense, proof of work in manifested by looking at Github.
Using email and phone calls alone a business manager can improve a key relationship or be influenced in a way that will lead to a major impact on a product's future, and there is just no way to express this in a similarly auditable fashion.
Running the business of a startup is much about managing the flow of energy. Energy flows do not have line numbers. You can only feel the effects daily, or wait until a major milestone like a funding event or growth spurt to clearly evaluate success.
We've all seen this, of course. As an MBA, it makes me chuckle. As an engineer it makes me sad. If there's one mindset that could be stand to be purged from the development world it is that developers are so damn smart.
The insecurity over intellectual capability is so strong in the software engineering profession that it's debilitating. Developers - get over yourselves. There are lots of smart people out there and they don't all look like you. Embrace this fact and you will be freed. Once you recognize that you cannot even define "smart", constructing your identity around being smart loses its luster.
It originally said: Is Hacker School/App Academy/ect worth it? (MBA builds an app in less than 2 months)
And was posted to have a conversation about whether Hacker School and programs like that are worth it, letting people share their opinions. The MBA aspect was meant for context.
By editing the title to what it is above, the focus becomes something completely different.
Let's flip that to: Is B school worth it? (Engineer builds a business in less than 2 months).
I agree with what jmduke and damoncali had to say about this, but I'm pretty sure Hacker School provides a lot more value than the ability to build an iOS app in less than 2 months.
Just from my limited participation in this community, I sense that several other people are doing great things with limited resources.
It's great that the author accomplished so much, but he's not alone.