Considering that their current methods of creating custom keycaps consists of either laser engraving or etching, and not actually molding plastic, I would not expect this to happen (ever).
You can get backlight keys in different colors through sellers that offer Ducky Keyboard brand backlight keys. You can find those in all sorts of colors and ISO/US formats, but nothing more than that unless you join some type of group buy through Geekhack.org or Deskthority.net where you can find all sorts of 'one-off' sets custom keycaps.
When I saw the book mention below the first picture, I thought I misread and that this first picture was just the starting point before being inspired by code analysis found in the book. I imagined a new , more efficient, principled layout.
For example, I'd think about reclaiming the top row, where the numbers live. On keyboards with a numpad, they're passengers. At the very least, invert the meaning of shift, so the default is to produce sigils.
Having looked over a lot of mechanical keyboards recently, it's fairly uncommon to find both mechanical action and backlighting in a single keyboard. I think some of the 'gamer' class ones have them, and that's about it.
Right, but most of us can buy any wireless keyboard, or even get a cool remote/keyboard combo, but a good ergo mechanical backlit keyboard for not a million dollars? nah.
I really can't think of anything good to say about this keyboard. I've used keyboards like this, and I've damaged my body with them. You know what matters a lot more than a backlight? Ergonomic design. Get a Kinesis Advantage instead.
If there is pain involved with one option, then it's logical to assume that time will change. When I do get wrist pain, it does cut into how I use my time.
Sure, but that would be assuming you personally are experiencing this pain. It goes back to what someone else in the thread said: Don't go looking for solutions if it isn't a problem you're experiencing.
I suppose that's true in a tacky arithmetic way. Shit keyboards are basically free. They also ruin your hands. So you have to prioritize a little. Having used the same Kinesis for six years I don't have a lot of sympathy for not being willing to shell out <$50/year for the most important part of the computer. In a discussion about someone trying to sell me a $150 dollar version of the free shit keyboard it seems even more disingenuous.
Yes, but people are reporting that the very expensive keyboards are not helping them. So, we are not solving a problem for $300 or whatever, we are taking a chance at solving a problem at $300. That's a different optimization problem, with a perhaps different solution.
I have the foot pedals. I never use them, because it is so convenient and comfortable to hit Ctrl/Alt with my thumbs. Maybe there are better keys to assign to my foot pedals, but I haven't really thought about it much.
I recently broke my arm and have been using foot pedals. I grabbed generic ones, and they help. I can't speak to the kinesis ones, they didn't seem to be easily programmable. The feel of the pedals I bought is horrible. Screwing them into a board with a carpet pad beneath helps a lot for organization.
...or a Goldtouch Adjustable Comfort keyboard for a slightly less eccentric layout. Even a Microsoft Comfort Curve keyboard will treat you better than the world's greatest straight keyboard.
I've been using split keyboards for many years and my wrists have thanked me for it. I get weird looks and people have a hard time using them, but it's worth it.
I have trouble typing on an ergonomic keyboard, otherwise I'd probably use it.
Incidentally, after years of proper piano training I feel like I hold my wrists in such a way that if I mostly keep typing, I won't strain my wrists too hard...and be able to type constantly all day. I only get pain in the wrists when using a Trackpad, surprisingly enough.
I've been using a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic keyboard for a long time and it's relieved a lot of wrist pains I used to have. I'm a little tentative to switch to something without a palm rest and without being able to position my hands farther apart.
This looks pretty good, though. I've been looking for a new mechanical keyboard for a while but haven't found anything that quite fits yet. Would love to hear some reviews once this gets out there.
As someone who has suffered from RSI, my advice is to not fix a problem you don't have. I've been there, and it just cost me money.
In my case, I didn't need a curved keyboard or a split keyboard, those things ended up in the cupboard. I just had to get rid of the numpad to change my position from awkward to healthy. So, for me, this keyboard is actually interesting, the variant without the numpad that is.
Why does the numpad make your position awkward by its presence? Can't you just pretend it's not there? Every keyboard I've owned since the late 80s has had a numpad and I've hardly ever used it.
Oh never mind, I see your reply to the top post below now. Because it moves the mouse too far away.
It forced me to either move the keyboard too far to the left or the mouse too far the right, the former causing wrist pain in both hands, the latter causing pain in the right wrist.
So, what fixed my pain was the smaller keyboard, not the lack of a numpad. The numpad just happends to be a big, expendable chunk :)
One of the keyboards I got in order to fix this was a Microsoft ergonomic keyboard, which includes the numpad and is also wider than what I've used before. So getting an ergonomic keyboard actually made things worse in one case.
I am an Emacs user with both keys either side of Space bar mapped to Ctrl. And I use Ctrl with either hand using my thumbs bent inwards (or sometimes with my palms).
I very rarely use my mouse while working, and most of the time I stick to touchpad or trackpoint navigation when I need the mouse.
This is one of the reasons I absolutely love the trackpoint: it allows me to use a mouse without my fingers leaving the home row, and the buttons are conveniently placed where my thumb already is. I'm saddened that the trackpoint is a rarity on laptops these days, I hope Lenovo won't drop it as well.
FWIW, when I used focus more on networking rather than development, I always used the numpad for typing in IP addresses. I found it was much faster to use it rather than moving horizontally across the number keys, but YMMV of course. Disclaimer: have a DAS Model S at work and home...can't really do without it (at least when the alternative is a terrible laptop keyboard)
I switched my mouse over to the left side of my keyboard (despite being decidedly right-handed) to avoid the numberpad issue. In the end I still had to ditch straight keyboards to avoid RSI.
(I've since gotten a keyboard without a numberpad and switched back, but I can still use a left-handed mouse pretty well. It's one step below having a trackball as far as confusing people who try to use my computer goes. :P)
I usually use a thumb trackball, but once when my wrist pain got pretty bad I started using one of the ambidextrous trackballs with my left hand for a bit, it was actually pretty nice.
For a long time I used the Filco tenkeyless with Cherry MX brown key switches, together with an Evoluent vertical mouse. That particular combination was very good for my wrists.
Unfortunately, the Filco tenkeyless can be a bit tricky to find (and of course are not backlit).
I have one of these as well (majestouch tenkeyless). My girlfriend routinely threatens to throw it out the window (which would obviously be devastating), but I am holding on to it tightly. In my excitement I bought a version without key markings. In retrospect, this was kind of silly. Theoretically it was supposed to promote touch typing, and so consequently increase my speed. In reality, I don't really notice a difference, and it mostly just serves to deter friends and family from using my computer (probably both a positive and a negative outcome).
It's a "gaming" brand keyboard I guess but it's half the cost of a Filco and comes in 4 different switch types. I just got one, seems pretty nice, although I only use it for gaming and my MS Natural 4000 for typing. Though I wish MS would make a tenkeyless version of the Natural 4000, because I do dislike the extreme width (they're making a new wireless ergonomic keyboard that's tenkeyless but it has scissor switches and I don't really like switches with little travel - almost went crazy when they gave me an Apple thin keyboard during an internship, and I quickly went to their old computer parts storage and got an older Apple keyboard to avoid losing my mind).
I am a Filco 10 keyless and wouldn't go back. I find it crazy that we have this 5" of obligatory keyboard everywhere as through everyone really needs a specialised desk calculator. Its where the mouse is meant to go!
The only drawback I have found is some 3d modelling tools assume a keypad in their default settings. Obv. you can remap the keys but its not as natural and makes following tutorials harder. If I were to use these more I would consider purchasing an external keypad but not to permanently give up such prime desk real estate for it.
I read through that page and it doesn't seem to explain how it actually works. With only one roller how do you move the mouse up and down, left and right?
I was confused at first but I realized I was looking at the scroll wheel surrounded by mouse buttons. Cursor movement is done with the "bar" above the buttons/scroll wheel. Move left/right in a finite lateral motion or up/down in an infinite scroll motion.
Imagine a long rod. Slide a shorter pipe onto it. You move on the X-axis by sliding the pipe left/right on the rod. Move on the Y-axis by rolling the pipe. Click by pushing the entire contraption down.
I tried it and it didn't work for me. Hand size was wrong and the placement of the modifier keys was unintuitive. With my day-to-day usage, I couldn't come up with a mapping that fit my needs.
I agree that with small hands, reaching the number row of a Kinesis advantage can be a challenge (I use one for my RSI issues, and I'm right at the threshold of hand size)
I've been using the plain, MS Natural keyboards for over a decade; all the way back to when they had normal arrow key & home-cluster layouts. I buy one for every computer I use with any regularity, which turns out to be one at home and one at the office.
My biggest complaint is they're not super durable. A single spill of water will destroy the keyboard (I've gone through about 5 this way), and the buttons do wear out over time (my home keyboard's '1' key is wearing out).
As you say, a better built, mechanical MS Natural would be God's Own Keyboard.
I am also using[1] microsoft natural keyboard, because it is the best (for me) combination of ergonomic split-hand slightly skewed keyborad that has normal querty layout. BUT.. the quality of the kyeboard is terrible. I with it the MS Natural would get Cherry MX Clear keys and better wireless tranciever.
Is there actually any evidence ergonomic keyboards reduce risk of RSI? Last time I looked into it it seemed like marketing fluff with no actual studies that backed it up.
RSI is a complex thing. Some people have pain that is fixed by uniquely shaped keyboards, others need to just switch ctrl and capslock, get rid of the numpad or whatever. I don't think there is such a thing as a keyboard that cures any kind of RSI. But I do think something super flexible like the Kinesis Freestyle comes close.
I love emacs, but I can definitely see how rms got RSI.
Like Jeff, I was not content with any of the available keyboards. I have two Kinesis Freestyles (the old one and the new one), and they are both great. But the halves only separate by 20", which is not enough to mount them on armrests.
So, I cut the separator cord one night, only to find that it contained twenty fine, individually shielded wires. At length, I reconnected them with an extension piece (three CAT-5 cables), first with breadboard (proof of concept), and eventually with soldering, heatshrink wrap, etc. I am NOT a hardware guy, and this took forever. But it was worth it.
Freestyle nitpicks: (1) The hardwired keys along the left (C-x, C-C, C-v, etc) are pointless and easy to hit by accident, yet hard to find on purpose. (2) "B" should be on both sides. (3) It would be nice if the two spacebars were distinguishable. I'd map one of them to Ctrl.
Mapping caps lock to ctrl is invaluable. (Except when you're on someone else's machine and you're constantly WRITING IN CAPS.)
Yes, and I tried using AutoHotKey to use spacebar as a modifier. But it's too hard to avoid conflict with "actual" spacebar usage.
You definitely have to be careful with your left pinky. I've started "palming" the corner control, when possible -- even for things like C-v and C-b where you can catch the other key with your thumb.
I've also tried key-chord-mode, with strong but uncommon pairs ("fj" "fk" "dk" "dj") set as a prefix for a custom map. The jury is still out on this, mostly because it's hard to change my habits.
I don't know, but I hasten to point out that the Kinesis isn't one of those generic "ergonomic" keyboards. It's a very different shape. One of its best features is that the keys are vertically aligned in straight columns, so that you're not constantly exercising the muscles to move your fingers slightly to the left or right. It makes a huge difference.
If someone invented a magic laptop that had a built-in Kinesis keyboard but could still close up, I would spend ridiculous sums of money to own one.
FWIW I tried the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard, which is similar to the Kinesis in that it has the keys in straight columns, and I found no discernible benefit. In fact, I ended up going back to my MS Natural 4000 and returning the TEK because even after 60 days I couldn't get used to the layout (it's nice that they let you do that though!). I may have to try the Kinesis though, the curve seems better. TEK looked nice in theory but the flat style didn't really work for me.
Although this is subjective, the kinesis advantage keyboard has really helped me better deal with my RSI; it has clusters of keys under each thumb and is fully programmable so I am able to move problem keys around (for me pinky keys are quite uncomfortable).
For me shift, space, backspace, tab, win, ctrl, alt, esc and enter are all thumb operations.
However I wouldn't go as far as saying it has solved my RSI, but it is definitely part of the solution that allows me to program 40+ hours a week (more like 50-60, 40 hour week professional + hobby programming).
FWIW the other parts include regular exercise, alternating mouse hands and using a trackball on my 'off hand', and a keyboard-heavy system (vim, dwm, etc.).
Buy if for the Ergonomics, keep it for the thumb modifier keys. I can't go back to a normal keyboard now. Having the modifier keys under your thumbs is just to damn nice.
I love ergonomic keyboards too, but they're extremely specialized. A mass market keyboard needs to appeal to as many folks as possible, and using the "classic" standard keyboard layout is the best way to do that.
There is a tenkeyless option if that helps, and there is room at the front for a wrist rest that can be periodically replaced as it wears.
My wrists seem ok, but my finger joints felt like they were developing arthritis, which is a common malady for typists. I bought a couple Leopolds (one with red switches, one brown), learned to type without bottoming out much, and it cleared right up.
I'm the opposite. I used to use ergonomic keyboards, including a Kinesis keyboard many years ago. It never solved my RSI pain.
What did solve my RSI pain was simple: posture. The height of my desk/chair/keyboard/mouse/monitor were not in proper alignment. Once I properly adjusted all heights the pain went away in weeks. I also got a tenkeyless (Filco Majestouch 2) mechanical keyboard, which helped for its form factor.
The middle image is how I used to be. My fixed desk was too high (even with my chair at maximum height) and so my arm/wrist was bent up.
I then got a height-adjustable desk and a monitor stand, and I made my setup more like the top image. However, my monitor is quite a bit higher that what is shown in that first image. I look straight ahead and don't tilt my head down.
I used a Kinesis Advantage for many months as my only keyboard, but did not recover from RSI until I got rid of it.
Now I use Logitech scissor-switch keyboards (the K750 and the K800). Oddly enough, even though it has the same basic scissor-switch design as the Logitech keyboards, I do very poorly with Apple keyboards (and I did use one exclusively for a few months).
I guess there's no single solution to RSI that works for every typist!
P.S. What really got me over my RSI is learning piano teacher Dorothy Taubman's technique for prevention of RSI.
I went through two K800s before giving up and getting a mechanical. The K800 is buggy and broken.
The first K800 I owned, the spacebar broke off within 2 hours of using it. I sent it back for a replacement. I was a lot easier, and cautious with the replacement, which ultimately hindered my typing ability.
There was some kind of key ghosting going on that disallowed me to type "ID" too fast. The D would always miss. I had to purposefully slow down when typing things like UserID, ProductID, things I type all day every day as a programmer. That was the last straw for me.
Just off the top of my head I count over $1000 worth of logitech stuff I own, but the K800 is the first product I would recommend against.
I am glad you wrote because I used the K800 for only 2 weeks. (I bought and returned a K800 because of a consideration that is relevant to only a tiny fraction of users.)
I have owned three K750s though. The K750 is a lot more likely to break than a good mechanical keyboard is, and the (silicone membranes in the) keyswitches get mushy a lot faster than mechanical keyswitches do, with the result that even though the acquisition cost is a half or a third of a good mechanical keyboard, the total cost of ownership is not any lower than with a mechanical keyboard, but I prefer them because their durability is within reason, they're very thin (short in the vertical dimension) and they're more "convenient" (specifically, they're wireless, and I can pick one up with one hand).
The tactile experience is almost as good as with a mechanical board. 90 or 95% as good, in my experience.
I would buy that. I have very large hands and this keyboard is the most comfortable one I have ever used by far. I have a good mechanical keyboard which caused me nothing but pain.
There are plenty of niche mechanical keyboard manufacturers. They even sell these kinds of keyboards as gaming keyboards now so it's not that niche. I got a Ducky which is a Taiwanese company that makes hundreds of different variations of this type of keyboard.
You can choose which Cherry switches you want and the length and pretty much anything you can imagine.
God I love that Ergo keyboard, but how can you stand that mouse? It's so awkward because when I try to move my arm up and down the mouse moves in a diagonal line...
I'd be interested in this if it didn't have a numpad, or maybe a detachable numpad.
I guess everyone has their individual RSI issues, but after experimenting with various devices, I noticed that mine were caused _exclusively_ by that silly old numpad thing I never use anyway. It forced me to place either the keyboard too far to the left or the mouse too far to the right, causing strain in either my left or right hand over time.
I really don't see what use a programmer (or any touch typist) might have for the numpad. I really don't see why they put one on this keyboard.
Other than for very specific ergonomic uses, I honestly don't understand the appeal of a heavy mechanical keyboard; the old IBM buckling-spring Model M keyboard doesn't appeal to me at all. Personally, I do all my work on a ThinkPad keyboard, and I actually have a USB ThinkPad keyboard/mouse for use with non-laptop systems or docking stations. I like the short throw of the keys, I like keys close together (as long as my fingers have room to type, which they do on anything >11" or so), and I like having a mouse on home row.
I agree and use the ThinkPad USB keyboard on my desktop machines - they are great ergonomically, especially if you ditch your mouse. It seems like the USB interface is super cheapie though with lots of missed key presses, or an occasional stuck key. I'd pay a premium for the ThinkPad form factor with higher quality electronics.
You can tear my Model M from my cold dead hands. Ya, when I'm on a laptop, I use a chiclet keyboard like everyone else. But I can feel myself typing with the Model M, my finger energy is returned fairly efficiently on each keystroke, it just feels better for coding tasks.
I do like the Ducky Shine, but this is a 100% custom design that Weyman and I came up with. It's not supposed to look radically different, but much cleaner and minimalistic. The details matter.
Interesting. [0] The choice of colors is cool. I wonder how much RGB LEDs would have added to the cost? I'm guessing quite a bit, especially since you would need to control 3x as many channels.
Anecdotally: I've been programming for over 20 years. I am a fast and accurate typist, but I never learned to touch-type and as a consequence, I need to see my fingers relative to the keys occasionally. I cannot do this in the dark without backlit keys.
You should probably not assume that everyone who uses computers is a touch-typist.
none the less, i consider myself a better typist than average. i don't touchtype, certainly. still, i find it really difficult to orient my hands with respect to the keys if i can't see them. the backlight is helpful for when i'm putting my hands back on the keys.
Thanks. I mostly use the bumps on F and J for that. I guess I do look down when my hands are way off and not finding the right bumps right away; the light from the screen seems adequate then. shrug
Honestly, if I were going to try to solve one problem with keyboards it would be to make cleaning them easier. This seems like a good keyboard and I may consider picking one up if both of my Das Keyboards fail me, but I'm not rushing to get one.
I got a das keyboard at home and at work. Its awesome, and I'd recommend a mechanical to anyone who works on a keyboard for a living. I would never buy anything like this from Atwood, though. His 'expertise' in software, personal attacks on other developers and tedious self-promotion don't really convince me that he's got the know-how to get into hardware production, but rather that he's found a way to make money off his sycophantic fan-base of mediocre programmers who take his word as gospel.
> His 'expertise' in software, personal attacks on other developers and tedious self-promotion...
> convince me that he's got the know-how to get into hardware production
Please, make claims based on things that are related topics.
If you were convinced that he was great at software, attacked nobody and never promoted himself, would you then be justified with evidence that he could get into hardware? Of course not.
I agree with you that this moves are money-motivated, which makes sense as I see him as a businessman first and foremost, but what you've said detracts from that point.
Just wanted to put in my reccomendation for WASD. I got the Cherry MX brown switches (tactile bump). I love the ability to completely customize each key. I've had mine for about 2 years now and I really dig it.
I too have a das keyboard. I wouldn't recommend them to anyone. I just got mine less than a year ago. One of the keys started getting sticky and would not jump back after a key press (the command key.) They haven't answered my email asking for any solution to this.
I saw similar complaints from other recent customers. It seems as though they have shifted production to a new Chinese facility which is causing more of these problems.
It works great, but breaks down quick. If you are in the middle of a coding project or something big, nothing can be more annoying: an awesome keyboard suddenly dying on you and absent customer service.
Well, if it makes you feel better, the new code keyboard also uses Cherry switches, so they may hit the same issues. AFAIK cherry's the only mechanical switch key maker left.
ALPS still makes mechanical keyswitches and I think Filco makes their own, don't they? Also, Unicomp makes "buckling spring" keyswitches for their own use.
ALPS hasn't made their keyswitches for a long time, but Matias [1] has put a slight variant back into production.
(ALPS switches are probably best known from the Apple Extended and other Apple keyboards of that era.)
Interesting! I thought Matias was using ALPS switches, rather than producing their own "ALPS-like" switches -- although that makes sense. I own a Matias Tactile Pro and liked it initially, but over the course of a few weeks I realized it made my fingertips sore in a way that I didn't remember old Apple keyboards doing (or my TRS-80 Model 4 keyboard, way back when, which turned out to use ALPS keyswitches). My favorites now seem to be Unicomp's buckling spring, although the Cherry Blue switches are a close second. (I haven't been able to try any of the other Cherry switches.)
Matias did use ALPS switches until the latest models. (Actually the ALPS production was taken over by another company, and finally discontinued in 2012.)
There were various changes to the ALPS line over the years, presumably to reduce costs, and many (including me) believe quality suffered. The Apple keyboards used the earliest, so-called ‘complicated long’ version, while Matias keyboards before the latest used the final ‘simplified’ version. (All these had various tactile and clicky variations.)
The switches in the big Apple keyboards had rubber bumpers to reduce the impact of bottoming out, which might have been the reason they were easier on your fingers. (On the other hand, buckling springs trigger low and land hard, so maybe not.) The latest Matias Quiet keyboard re-introduces the rubber bumpers. (I haven't tried them.)
Yeah, I have 2 DAS keyboards as well. Got em a few years back and they are so much better to type on. Mine have no letters on the keys so people that can't type don't just come to my desk and "Hop on my machine"
It sounds really cool, but in practice having unlabeled keys has just been tiresome for me. The numpad symbols and F keys always mess me up, and I'm hopeless when it comes to trying to print screen. Also the Cherry MX Blue switches are amazing for typing but not that great for gaming since there's so much dead space between subsequent taps of the same key.
The point is, don't just buy a Das keyboard to hop on the bandwagon. They do have disadvantages.
I have had one too for several years and it's one of the best decisions I've made. It's still holding up quite well and no letters on the keys is great. Though I still, after all these years, have a little trouble being able to type the number keys without the labels on them.
Most people are intimidated by the absense of labels, but my daughter takes it as a challenge and does pretty well without them.
> rather that he's found a way to make money off his sycophantic fan-base of mediocre programmers who take his word as gospel.
From all I know, he was making a decent living from his blog alone before he started StackOverflow. And let's just assume for a moment that SO made him a bit more. Alledging he's doing this for the money is... surprising. Being needlessly offensive doesn't really help your point either.
I briefly owned a das keyboard: loved the touch response of it, but the wacky USB hubs they had built into it caused me no end of trouble on some more niche operating systems due to some non-standard implementation choices.
Also, I hated the high-gloss easily marred plastic on it.
I returned it shortly after purchase and said "never again".
I imagine most big name guitarists don't have much expertise in building guitars, but that doesn't stop manufacturers making custom signature models. The end result is usually a pretty impressive piece of hardware that's tailored to the way the artist plays. The manufacturers gets the PR of having the guitarists attached to their brand, and the guitarist gets their dream guitar. I'm pretty sure the same thing is going on here.
Anyone have any thoughts on the difference between this 87 key keyboard and the leopold tenkeyless? I've been using an ancient wired 87 key apple keyboard that I love but I'm intrigued.
Got to agree with you here, the keyboard is quite overpriced (IMHO).
I'm with an 87 keys with brown switches at the office and at home I use a Das Keyboard with blue switches.
For me it's either brown or blue, clear switches are too much in between. If you're going non-clicky pick brown or even red, if it's clicky, then it's blue all the way.
I have two Leopold 87s w/ Cherry Browns, at work and home. I love them. They also have a solid build quality and with the Cherry Browns, they still have a slight 'clack' but not to loud. Never once had a complaint from a coworker. Never experienced the Cherry Clear switches.
I don't see backlighting as a necessary feature. I almost never have to look at my keyboard. If I do there's generally enough ambient light, even if the lights are off, my monitor throws enough around.
I run Windows so media key's are more than easily compensated for by AutoHotKey. Instead of Fn+Key you can make whatever shortcut you want. Obvously a different equation for other OSs.
I don't want to take anything away from Jeff, good for him for realizing his dream. But claiming that this is the best keyboard for programmers is an overstatement if I ever heard one.
Yes, it's mechanical, yes it has backlit keys and you can do some customizations. But where is everything else? Why are the keys still in the zig-zag formation? Why is the enter key so small? Why is the enter key on the right, where I have to use my pinky to hit it? Ever heard about ergonomics? Can I get one with DVORAK layout printed on? And so on and so forth.
If you want to create the best keyboard for programmers then create one that won't kill our wrists and hands.
You can choose Dvorak, Colemak, QWERTY via dipswitches on the back. As well as Mac (Alt/Command), disable Windows Key, switch Caps Lock with Ctrl, etc.
It comes with a key puller, so you can easily swap the keys with whatever keycaps you like. WASD sells tons of different keycaps.
I love ergonomic keyboards too but for a mass market item we wanted to follow the classic standards everyone knows first and foremost. Perhaps if the base model does really well, we can come back with an ergo model.
I can appreciate that you are trying to appeal to the masses, maybe I was just expecting something more from a $149.99 keyboard. Or better yet, expected more from a keyboard primarily aimed at programmers (that was built by a programmer).
Anyway: I wish you the best of luck and a lot of sales so I can see what you can come up with in the ergonomics department (I'll stick with my TypeMatrix for now :).
Do note that you will need new keycaps to use Dvorak or Colemak. Each row of keys in a WASD keyboard has a slightly different height/slope, so you can't move the keys around between rows (without having all of your keys being different heights, that is). You'd have to order new keycaps with the correct letters AND the right height/slopes.
You shouldn't expect anything less of Jeff Atwood. Every thought out of his head is apparent perfection for programmers, he's the only writer I know that makes people feel like idiots if they dare to do something differently to him. Take everything you read on Coding Horror with a salt lake.
Can anyone who has used the Cherry MX clears comment on them as compared to blues or browns? I've found that I dislike blues, and loathe reds. Browns are hands down my favorite, and the key switch I use both at home and at the office.
I do understand being frustrated in the search for a high quality mechanical backlit keyboard, as there are shockingly few contenders out there. I'm currently using a Max nighthawk (green backlit with brown key switches), and enjoying it. However, the Ducky Shine II was very close to the top of my list.
Clear is sort of like blue without the noise. It's a strong actuation force, closer to real buckling spring keyboards... but without the deafening gunshot sounds every time you press a key. :)
I've got a Ducky Shine II 87-key that's looks extremely similar to the CODE Keyboard. I got mine with Reds, which I don't care for, so I stick to my Filco with Browns or a Leopold with Blues, but the Ducky looks great, has great build quality, and has nearly all the features of the CODE Keyboard.
Clears are heavier browns with a more pronounced bump. IIRC they have springs from the Blacks and the stem protrudes a bit more to make the actuation bump more noticeable. I got a Leopold FC660M from Qtan's ebay store yesterday, liking it more than my Ducky 9008 G2 Pro with Browns that I got in June.
WASD Keyboards (well, Weyman) has given me some of the best customer support over the past few years. They even recently fixed my busted Caps Lock key (my own fault) outside of warranty for just $10. I broke my space bar in-warranty, and it was fixed for free. I wanted some custom settings/layouts the keyboard designer couldn't handle, and they obliged. My WASD has lasted for several years now (including a few minor repairs) and I've had nothing but good experiences with them. I've been waiting for their v2 keyboards (they've been "coming soon" for months) and I'm excited to see they finally launched!
I had RSI. Got over it, but still found mechanical keyboards uncomfortable.
For some reason, I find the MacBook air 13 inch keyboard to be the most comfortable I've ever used.
I don't know why. Part of it may be the low height from the ground, and part is the great trackpad. (I tried the magic mouse and hurt my arm)
I expect other people have different opinions of the air's keyboard. The point is that I don't think there is any one keyboard that works best for everyone.
Scissor switches can be quite comfortable, and the macbook air has quite nice switches (IMO I like the thinkpad x1 carbon's a little better, but it is close), and the location of the trackpad being under the keys is much more comfortable than having a physical mouse to the left or right.
For my desktop I have a kinesis advantage, but I often find using my thinkpad for long periods of time to be very comfortable, I just wish I could find a decent trackpad for my desktop(s).
Why are we continuing to use staggered layouts on keyboards? It is clearly inefficient, and not difficult to switch to a matrix (ie. grid based) layout, since all of the keys are close to where they were before.
Second question - in this day and age of easy connectors, why are numpads attached to the side of keyboards? What do left handed people do? Or people who don't use the numpad? Why not have the numpad detachable? Same goes for the arrow keys.
There's an easy fix for the "staggered" layout problem: type "Z" with ring finger, "X" with middle finger, "C" with index, etc.
It's beyond me why the "Z with little finger" technique is so widespread. It's universally taught, yet you're obviously bending your fingers in an uncomfortable and unnatural direction when you go to press the bottom row.
No one's complaining about the staggered layout of the right-hand keys, because it matches how your fingers bend. Staggering is great when it matches the natural angle of your fingers on the keyboard.
I don't think on the right side it matches either. From J if I move down I always hit between N and M. Actually, at least on my keyboard, I think that the right side is worse - I find myself in a position where my thumb is on the space bar, my middle finger and index finger do all of the typing, and my wrist constantly shifts to hit enter.
On the left side - if I hit Z with my ring finger. If I wanted to type ZERO, normally it would be Z(pinky) E(middle) R(index) O(right ring), but with this the easiest is to hit E and R with the index finger.
Anyway, doesn't make sense to have to hack around a layout whose only purpose was to key mechanics to not jam in typewriters.
Your hands and forearms should be hitting the keyboard at an angle, due to the way your elbows hang outside your shoulders. Don't bend the wrists to make your hands go perfectly vertical; that's a major RSI concern.
At that angle, the U/J/M and I/K/Comma rows, etc., should line up pretty well with the bending of your fingers. Same with E/S/Z and R/D/X. But Q/A/Z (how most people type) requires a completely unnatural bend!
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[ 4.4 ms ] story [ 328 ms ] threadYou can get backlight keys in different colors through sellers that offer Ducky Keyboard brand backlight keys. You can find those in all sorts of colors and ISO/US formats, but nothing more than that unless you join some type of group buy through Geekhack.org or Deskthority.net where you can find all sorts of 'one-off' sets custom keycaps.
For example, I'd think about reclaiming the top row, where the numbers live. On keyboards with a numpad, they're passengers. At the very least, invert the meaning of shift, so the default is to produce sigils.
I mean the next step IMO is to borrow inspiration from some computer game peripherals and allow buttons to be physically laid out in a different way.
And, because I'm a dork, I'd really like one that has no keys printed on it. [1] But that's just because I like showing off.
[1] http://www.daskeyboard.com/product/model-s-ultimate/
...until you hook up a PC to the big TV screen in the living room. ;) Then you'll beg for a good wireless keyboard.
How often do you input text into a computer (or sleep in a bed, or whatever).
What is the hourly (or daily) cost of it over some reasonable timeframe (1 year, for example).
At what price point is owning a better tool worth it? (health wise, opportunity cost wise, etc).
Incidentally, after years of proper piano training I feel like I hold my wrists in such a way that if I mostly keep typing, I won't strain my wrists too hard...and be able to type constantly all day. I only get pain in the wrists when using a Trackpad, surprisingly enough.
This looks pretty good, though. I've been looking for a new mechanical keyboard for a while but haven't found anything that quite fits yet. Would love to hear some reviews once this gets out there.
In my case, I didn't need a curved keyboard or a split keyboard, those things ended up in the cupboard. I just had to get rid of the numpad to change my position from awkward to healthy. So, for me, this keyboard is actually interesting, the variant without the numpad that is.
Oh never mind, I see your reply to the top post below now. Because it moves the mouse too far away.
So, what fixed my pain was the smaller keyboard, not the lack of a numpad. The numpad just happends to be a big, expendable chunk :)
One of the keyboards I got in order to fix this was a Microsoft ergonomic keyboard, which includes the numpad and is also wider than what I've used before. So getting an ergonomic keyboard actually made things worse in one case.
I move my left hand about three inches to get the mouse. With my right hand (using the old MS split keyboard) it was nearly a foot!
I am an Emacs user with both keys either side of Space bar mapped to Ctrl. And I use Ctrl with either hand using my thumbs bent inwards (or sometimes with my palms).
I also try to use mouse minimally.
http://www.a4tech.com/product.asp?cid=1&scid=1&id=54
This is one of the reasons I absolutely love the trackpoint: it allows me to use a mouse without my fingers leaving the home row, and the buttons are conveniently placed where my thumb already is. I'm saddened that the trackpoint is a rarity on laptops these days, I hope Lenovo won't drop it as well.
(I've since gotten a keyboard without a numberpad and switched back, but I can still use a left-handed mouse pretty well. It's one step below having a trackball as far as confusing people who try to use my computer goes. :P)
Unfortunately, the Filco tenkeyless can be a bit tricky to find (and of course are not backlit).
I also use the Das Keyboard "ultimate", which has blank keys. I rarely look at my keys anyhow, so it's mostly a conversation piece at the office :P
It's a "gaming" brand keyboard I guess but it's half the cost of a Filco and comes in 4 different switch types. I just got one, seems pretty nice, although I only use it for gaming and my MS Natural 4000 for typing. Though I wish MS would make a tenkeyless version of the Natural 4000, because I do dislike the extreme width (they're making a new wireless ergonomic keyboard that's tenkeyless but it has scissor switches and I don't really like switches with little travel - almost went crazy when they gave me an Apple thin keyboard during an internship, and I quickly went to their old computer parts storage and got an older Apple keyboard to avoid losing my mind).
The only drawback I have found is some 3d modelling tools assume a keypad in their default settings. Obv. you can remap the keys but its not as natural and makes following tutorials harder. If I were to use these more I would consider purchasing an external keypad but not to permanently give up such prime desk real estate for it.
I have it at the office and it's just amazing.
It's really intuitive.
A mouse has "infinite" movement, the rod only has infinite vertical movementent, unless I'm missing something.
If you are into straight keyboards, http://pckeyboard.com/page/PC122/UB40B5A
My biggest complaint is they're not super durable. A single spill of water will destroy the keyboard (I've gone through about 5 this way), and the buttons do wear out over time (my home keyboard's '1' key is wearing out).
As you say, a better built, mechanical MS Natural would be God's Own Keyboard.
1 - http://urza.cc/pc2013
Like Jeff, I was not content with any of the available keyboards. I have two Kinesis Freestyles (the old one and the new one), and they are both great. But the halves only separate by 20", which is not enough to mount them on armrests.
So, I cut the separator cord one night, only to find that it contained twenty fine, individually shielded wires. At length, I reconnected them with an extension piece (three CAT-5 cables), first with breadboard (proof of concept), and eventually with soldering, heatshrink wrap, etc. I am NOT a hardware guy, and this took forever. But it was worth it.
Freestyle nitpicks: (1) The hardwired keys along the left (C-x, C-C, C-v, etc) are pointless and easy to hit by accident, yet hard to find on purpose. (2) "B" should be on both sides. (3) It would be nice if the two spacebars were distinguishable. I'd map one of them to Ctrl.
Mapping caps lock to ctrl is invaluable. (Except when you're on someone else's machine and you're constantly WRITING IN CAPS.)
You definitely have to be careful with your left pinky. I've started "palming" the corner control, when possible -- even for things like C-v and C-b where you can catch the other key with your thumb.
I've also tried key-chord-mode, with strong but uncommon pairs ("fj" "fk" "dk" "dj") set as a prefix for a custom map. The jury is still out on this, mostly because it's hard to change my habits.
If someone invented a magic laptop that had a built-in Kinesis keyboard but could still close up, I would spend ridiculous sums of money to own one.
For me shift, space, backspace, tab, win, ctrl, alt, esc and enter are all thumb operations.
However I wouldn't go as far as saying it has solved my RSI, but it is definitely part of the solution that allows me to program 40+ hours a week (more like 50-60, 40 hour week professional + hobby programming).
FWIW the other parts include regular exercise, alternating mouse hands and using a trackball on my 'off hand', and a keyboard-heavy system (vim, dwm, etc.).
There is a tenkeyless option if that helps, and there is room at the front for a wrist rest that can be periodically replaced as it wears.
What did solve my RSI pain was simple: posture. The height of my desk/chair/keyboard/mouse/monitor were not in proper alignment. Once I properly adjusted all heights the pain went away in weeks. I also got a tenkeyless (Filco Majestouch 2) mechanical keyboard, which helped for its form factor.
The middle image is how I used to be. My fixed desk was too high (even with my chair at maximum height) and so my arm/wrist was bent up.
I then got a height-adjustable desk and a monitor stand, and I made my setup more like the top image. However, my monitor is quite a bit higher that what is shown in that first image. I look straight ahead and don't tilt my head down.
Now I use Logitech scissor-switch keyboards (the K750 and the K800). Oddly enough, even though it has the same basic scissor-switch design as the Logitech keyboards, I do very poorly with Apple keyboards (and I did use one exclusively for a few months).
I guess there's no single solution to RSI that works for every typist!
P.S. What really got me over my RSI is learning piano teacher Dorothy Taubman's technique for prevention of RSI.
The first K800 I owned, the spacebar broke off within 2 hours of using it. I sent it back for a replacement. I was a lot easier, and cautious with the replacement, which ultimately hindered my typing ability.
There was some kind of key ghosting going on that disallowed me to type "ID" too fast. The D would always miss. I had to purposefully slow down when typing things like UserID, ProductID, things I type all day every day as a programmer. That was the last straw for me.
Just off the top of my head I count over $1000 worth of logitech stuff I own, but the K800 is the first product I would recommend against.
I have owned three K750s though. The K750 is a lot more likely to break than a good mechanical keyboard is, and the (silicone membranes in the) keyswitches get mushy a lot faster than mechanical keyswitches do, with the result that even though the acquisition cost is a half or a third of a good mechanical keyboard, the total cost of ownership is not any lower than with a mechanical keyboard, but I prefer them because their durability is within reason, they're very thin (short in the vertical dimension) and they're more "convenient" (specifically, they're wireless, and I can pick one up with one hand).
The tactile experience is almost as good as with a mechanical board. 90 or 95% as good, in my experience.
I have 4 Microsoft Ergo 7000s in case they ever stop making them.
You can choose which Cherry switches you want and the length and pretty much anything you can imagine.
I'd be interested in this if it didn't have a numpad, or maybe a detachable numpad.
I guess everyone has their individual RSI issues, but after experimenting with various devices, I noticed that mine were caused _exclusively_ by that silly old numpad thing I never use anyway. It forced me to place either the keyboard too far to the left or the mouse too far to the right, causing strain in either my left or right hand over time.
I really don't see what use a programmer (or any touch typist) might have for the numpad. I really don't see why they put one on this keyboard.
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/code-87-key-mechanica...
I guess it's about aesthetics.
Anecdotally: I've been programming for over 20 years. I am a fast and accurate typist, but I never learned to touch-type and as a consequence, I need to see my fingers relative to the keys occasionally. I cannot do this in the dark without backlit keys.
You should probably not assume that everyone who uses computers is a touch-typist.
none the less, i consider myself a better typist than average. i don't touchtype, certainly. still, i find it really difficult to orient my hands with respect to the keys if i can't see them. the backlight is helpful for when i'm putting my hands back on the keys.
(remember Arringtons tablet, anyone?)
> convince me that he's got the know-how to get into hardware production
Please, make claims based on things that are related topics.
If you were convinced that he was great at software, attacked nobody and never promoted himself, would you then be justified with evidence that he could get into hardware? Of course not.
I agree with you that this moves are money-motivated, which makes sense as I see him as a businessman first and foremost, but what you've said detracts from that point.
I'm sure it will be a good keyboard (especially for enthusiasts looking to try out some Cherry MX clears).
http://i.imgur.com/kLWlIVo.jpg
they just came out with an 88 key version I might have to buy for my home office.
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/wasd-v2-88-key-iso-cu...
Check out the customer creations to get some ideas of what you can do: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/gallery2/customer-cre...
I saw similar complaints from other recent customers. It seems as though they have shifted production to a new Chinese facility which is causing more of these problems.
It works great, but breaks down quick. If you are in the middle of a coding project or something big, nothing can be more annoying: an awesome keyboard suddenly dying on you and absent customer service.
[1] http://matias.ca/
There were various changes to the ALPS line over the years, presumably to reduce costs, and many (including me) believe quality suffered. The Apple keyboards used the earliest, so-called ‘complicated long’ version, while Matias keyboards before the latest used the final ‘simplified’ version. (All these had various tactile and clicky variations.)
The switches in the big Apple keyboards had rubber bumpers to reduce the impact of bottoming out, which might have been the reason they were easier on your fingers. (On the other hand, buckling springs trigger low and land hard, so maybe not.) The latest Matias Quiet keyboard re-introduces the rubber bumpers. (I haven't tried them.)
The point is, don't just buy a Das keyboard to hop on the bandwagon. They do have disadvantages.
Most people are intimidated by the absense of labels, but my daughter takes it as a challenge and does pretty well without them.
From all I know, he was making a decent living from his blog alone before he started StackOverflow. And let's just assume for a moment that SO made him a bit more. Alledging he's doing this for the money is... surprising. Being needlessly offensive doesn't really help your point either.
Also, I hated the high-gloss easily marred plastic on it.
I returned it shortly after purchase and said "never again".
Apple/Lenovo have perfected keyboards in their laptops. It's been years since I've wanted an aftermarket one.
Anyway I took a stab and joined the group buy. Apparently the clears have the same actuation force as the MS 4000.
https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware
http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=leopold,tenkeyles...
1. Backlighting 2. Better Aesthetics 3. Cherry MX Clear switches
That's pretty much it. I personally don't think it's worth the 50 dollar premium when I'm just fine with MX Browns.
I'm with an 87 keys with brown switches at the office and at home I use a Das Keyboard with blue switches.
For me it's either brown or blue, clear switches are too much in between. If you're going non-clicky pick brown or even red, if it's clicky, then it's blue all the way.
I don't see backlighting as a necessary feature. I almost never have to look at my keyboard. If I do there's generally enough ambient light, even if the lights are off, my monitor throws enough around.
I run Windows so media key's are more than easily compensated for by AutoHotKey. Instead of Fn+Key you can make whatever shortcut you want. Obvously a different equation for other OSs.
Yes, it's mechanical, yes it has backlit keys and you can do some customizations. But where is everything else? Why are the keys still in the zig-zag formation? Why is the enter key so small? Why is the enter key on the right, where I have to use my pinky to hit it? Ever heard about ergonomics? Can I get one with DVORAK layout printed on? And so on and so forth.
If you want to create the best keyboard for programmers then create one that won't kill our wrists and hands.
It comes with a key puller, so you can easily swap the keys with whatever keycaps you like. WASD sells tons of different keycaps.
I love ergonomic keyboards too but for a mass market item we wanted to follow the classic standards everyone knows first and foremost. Perhaps if the base model does really well, we can come back with an ergo model.
I can appreciate that you are trying to appeal to the masses, maybe I was just expecting something more from a $149.99 keyboard. Or better yet, expected more from a keyboard primarily aimed at programmers (that was built by a programmer).
Anyway: I wish you the best of luck and a lot of sales so I can see what you can come up with in the ergonomics department (I'll stick with my TypeMatrix for now :).
I do understand being frustrated in the search for a high quality mechanical backlit keyboard, as there are shockingly few contenders out there. I'm currently using a Max nighthawk (green backlit with brown key switches), and enjoying it. However, the Ducky Shine II was very close to the top of my list.
http://tigerimports.net/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p...
For some reason, I find the MacBook air 13 inch keyboard to be the most comfortable I've ever used.
I don't know why. Part of it may be the low height from the ground, and part is the great trackpad. (I tried the magic mouse and hurt my arm)
I expect other people have different opinions of the air's keyboard. The point is that I don't think there is any one keyboard that works best for everyone.
For my desktop I have a kinesis advantage, but I often find using my thinkpad for long periods of time to be very comfortable, I just wish I could find a decent trackpad for my desktop(s).
Second question - in this day and age of easy connectors, why are numpads attached to the side of keyboards? What do left handed people do? Or people who don't use the numpad? Why not have the numpad detachable? Same goes for the arrow keys.
It's beyond me why the "Z with little finger" technique is so widespread. It's universally taught, yet you're obviously bending your fingers in an uncomfortable and unnatural direction when you go to press the bottom row.
No one's complaining about the staggered layout of the right-hand keys, because it matches how your fingers bend. Staggering is great when it matches the natural angle of your fingers on the keyboard.
On the left side - if I hit Z with my ring finger. If I wanted to type ZERO, normally it would be Z(pinky) E(middle) R(index) O(right ring), but with this the easiest is to hit E and R with the index finger.
Anyway, doesn't make sense to have to hack around a layout whose only purpose was to key mechanics to not jam in typewriters.
At that angle, the U/J/M and I/K/Comma rows, etc., should line up pretty well with the bending of your fingers. Same with E/S/Z and R/D/X. But Q/A/Z (how most people type) requires a completely unnatural bend!