> “You know what my problem is! We’ve already spoken about it, you told me to come back with more information and I did. I’ve come back four times with the correct documentation and you’re still telling me I won’t be approved?!”
He was asking the wrong kind of questions. I figured out the right question when I was made told "the officer is busy at the moment", and asked to wait in an empty room. After sitting idly for about half an hour, I realized that the right question was "is there a fee that I could pay to make things go faster?" My task was accomplished in the next five minutes.
Of course, I'm Indian, and this was not at a visa office.
I don't mean this as advice to "Alex", but the rusty machine runs on greased palms.
Oh people people apply for a work Visa to India? And India denies it?? I am surprised!
Ok sarcasm apart, I didn't think getting a work Visa to India would be so difficult but yes the bureaucracy is strangling. I had to visit the Passport office 3 times to renew my passport. It's like your whole future depends on the whims and fancies of a single government official.
And there is no coordination between different government departments. For instance India has come with this new SSN like Unique Identification Number (UID) thing called Aadhaar (Support in Hindi). Government says it is a valid proof of identity, it says so on the Passport web site as well as a valid documents accepted for proof of address but as my colleague recently experienced, the passport officers flatly refuse to accept Aadhaar card as proof of address! If you want your passport, produce the document that I ask for, I don't care what the web site says!
tell me I don't have a passport
Reason : My dad refused to pay bribe .
I am fine with it, I will wait for one more year and apply again but without paying bribe
Well, the government side of things certainly sucks. But not as much as this article blows it out to be. And the title is pretty sensational at best.
So, a whole nation is bad because a dozen officers were lazy? I really love the prostitute-ish ways Techcrunch goes sometimes to get pageviews. Well, it's their style anyway (Apple vs Samsung articles, anyone?)
Let's forget Techcrunch now.
First, I would like to point out certain things about the Indian eco-system for Entrepreneurs.
If you plan to run a max-profit, high efficiency startup, India it is. Period.
I say 'high efficiency' because you can optimize a lot of things for maximum profit.
Programmers are dead cheap. By programmers, I mean real programmers. You can hire decent programmers for $150-$200 a month. And that's a pretty standard amount in the IT scenario in India. The last time I checked people were paying $1000-$2000 for an average marketer who cold calls and emails random people in Western countries.
Of course, the next thing you'd argue is about the 'quality' of the programmers. See, these are real people. I know you get to meet a lot of shitty Indians everywhere. They're all over freelancing market places, take your money and do a shitty job. Agreed. But these people are not the 100% of the IT work force in India. They're probably like 30-40% which is large, but they are very much employable. All you need to do is just teach them the right way to do things and they'll grasp. And they improve. Just like everybody else. They're also people like us, right?
Next, I say 'maximum profit' because there's a lot of things that will save you money in India.
Need some office space? Here you go, starting from $60 a month. And these are in posh locations we're talking about (Contrary to popular belief, India has a lot of posh locations which were not shown in Slumdog Millionaire. Again, sensationalism. Oh this bastardized media!)
So, you can get a decent lawyer for $100-200. These guys take care of all your company incorporation, etc. Need an auditor to file taxes? That's just $100 a year.
Let's do the math for an American incorporation?
$200-$600 for Incorporating an LLC
$50-$100/yr for Registered agent.
Attorney fees - $1000-$15000 (decent attorney)
Travel is dead cheap in India. For $10 you can travel between two states comfortably on a Volvo A/C bus. Traveling within the city? That's just $2 cents. Or $1 cent. Actually even less. Depends on your mode.
Safety. I know you've been reading a lot of rape and stuff in the news channel. So, everybody gets to read only the bad parts (Media, again). However, there are a lot of posh, decent areas where there are cops circling around almost 24/7 till night. These places cost slightly extra, but they are totally worth it.
Also, it is very important that you realize that India has rape incidents mean the whole nation is spread out with rapists. Rape cases are most often encountered in the northern region. It's safe to say that Southern India is pretty safe (much much safe) compared to North India, which is almost full of sex-starved assholes (vague generalizaion)
This is not to say that South India has no rape at all. Just like any other country, abuse exists, but it's pretty controlled in the South. The last time a child molester was caught, he was shot dead in an encounter. (encounters of nasty criminals are pretty common here). Just avoid going out in the nights to lonely places and you should be pretty safe. Avoid public transportation if you can, or opt for deluxe buses/trains. India is as safe as any other country if you take some general precautions.
Now back to our start up. If you started up in the United states/United Kingdom, you'd be blowing out money like water. But if you start up in India and seek funding from abroad, most likely people will avoid you because you are an India, and the complications involved. My advice - Setup a C-Corp...
FYI, your programmers are underpaid. Friends of mine who have degrees in the humanities make more than 500 USD a month as programmers working for Indian startups. If you made 200 USD a month, you won't be able to live anywhere halfway decent in Chennai.
It's all about standards of living. There are people working in call centers for $150-200 and still living in Chennai. I'm not saying $200 is enough. I'm saying there are good, employable, but un-employed people in this range.
> By programmers, I mean real programmers. You can hire decent programmers for $150-$200 a month.
This shows you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. A decent programmer will cost you close to $1000/month; a good one with experience will cost you upwards of $2000 per month.
Talk about all those dudes working in their dream MNC's like Wipro, etc?
Dude, everyone starts somewhere - The amount doesn't determine quality. If we go by that logic, you live in India and you're probably a shitty dude because you're not making anywhere as much as your American counter parts. Get over this mentality dude. Price != quality always.
It's true that no one will sue you for rounded corners in India. No, why go through the expense and publicity of a lawsuit, when you can simply bribe the local government and telecom monopoly to deny all your requests?
Electricity went out? Sorry, sir, but all our technicians are busy and we won't be able to come fix the lines for another two or three days. Need a faster internet connection? Sorry sir, we're not handling those requests right now. Need to move into a larger building? All of a sudden the building inspectors are looking very closely at the interior plans of the new office.
This shows what a cliched mindset you have about an entire nation. Electricity doesn't goes out as much as you think. It's hardly an hour in an entire month and it depends on where you live more importantly. And as always you can get inverters for dead cheap here for un-interrupted power supply.
Faster internet connection? Again you have a cliched mentality. You can get an 8Mbps connection with 5min so far for this entire month for $20.
Wake up buddy, this idea that an entire nation is full of shit just because you read articles about a particular place in the news doesn't make sense.
By that logic, everyone in the United States should be eating only burgers, be ridiculously obese and die of heart attack before 30.
What the comment was highlighting was a culture of evasiveness and plausible deniabililty. ie, classic beuracratic tricks of the trade. the electric/internet/etc examples are just placeholders for any problem (mission critical) where you might be at the mercy of this type of behaviour. So, to summarize the stereo-typing is about a certain type of social-interaction, not about technology or intelligence or what not. You may (or may not) want to take issue with the accuracy of this claim, but at least such would be more en pointe.
An hour a month? I wish I lived in that part of India. When I was there, Thursday was typically the day we lost to power cuts. 1 paise for travel? Within city travel was 50-200rs. And $200/month for a good developer? Anyone I'd consider letting near my codebase was at least a lakh a month.
(All numbers for Pune, about 1-2 years ago.)
I did a startup in India, mainly for the cheap labor. I'd happily expand and set up shop in India again, depending on the circumstances. But lets be realistic, rather than pushing hype.
Now that we know how strong you are with Math, I'm not surprised I haven't heard about your startup. And also read my comment fully, I only talk in favor of South India. North India is the real third world.
In a country where you need to pay 40% of your profits in taxes after minting small money after putting 5 years of efforts.
If you think hiring programmers at cheap price is maximizing profit , its exploitation my friend , it's called making profit on misery of unemployment situation in the country.
>If you think hiring programmers at cheap price is maximizing profit , its exploitation my friend , it's called making profit on misery of unemployment situation in the country.
There are un-employed employable people in the $200 range. You'll never understand the scenario in India, because you're not from India. But, you're right, I have a very crude mindset about exploiting these people. I realize my mistake. Sorry.
Your numbers on most things are way off. I returned home end of last year and setup shop this year in Bangalore. I have access to Naukri's database of quality assurance engineers and their current salary listed. I also visited campuses to recruit fresh grads. $200/mo won't get you even fresh grads from the top 20 universities in my state. $60 is no longer rent - it's about 5 to 10 times that for a 2000 square foot 3 bedroom apartment that's not in a very posh area. Setting up a partnership, including legal fees cost me around $400. Travel, you are spot on in that cheap options exist. BTW, days of 2 rupee and 4 rupee bus rides are also over. It's about 5 times that in a regular bus.
I'm giving specific numbers here mainly because there may be Indians who want to return home and start here.
I had Chennai in mind, when I wrote that comment because I know only Chennai and Delhi well (I'm from Delhi).
Banglore is expensive because of the sheer number of IT companies there.
Come to chennai:
I can get you:
a posh OFFICE SPACE (Not a fucking apartment) for $60 in a posh area.
a sole proprietorship for less than $100
a decent grad for $200 - but not from the top Universities, though. Why? Because it's a cliched mindset that the best people come from the best universities. Have you watched Ratatouille?
"Not anyone can become a great artist, but a great artist can come from anywhere."
Please, I urge you to refresh this kind of attitude (Heavier pay = better quality employee, Better University = better grad)
Chennai is my native place and yes, it's cheaper than Bangalore but by less than 20%. Can you update your profile with your email or email me, I'd like details on the $60 office space.
I am aware that good people come from all universities. For me top university is a useful filter. When hiring, especially as a small company, I need some way to filter down to a smaller candidate pool to interview. So my thinking is: better university = higher probability of finding better grad.
> It's safe to say that Southern India is pretty safe (much much safe) compared to North India, which is almost full of sex-starved assholes (vague generalizaion)
Please provide citations or stop pulling statistics out of your own biased opinions. As an Indian, nothing makes me more infuriated than to see this "Oh North India bad! South India good" thing. And I really don't see how this is even remotely related to the discussion and why you had to bring this in.
So.....you are probably not going to be an effective entrepreneur in a country like India if you can't even figure out how to pay the cost of doing business for the visa you need to even start your company. If you don't understand that this is a shakedown/bribe situation you should not be incorporating in India. How could you be an effective leader there if you can't even figure this one out.
I wish they could just say "there's a special fast track fee if you wish" or simply make it an actual fast track fee. But nooo, it has to be all hinthint, winkwink.
And that doesn't concern only India, it's the same thing in all countries with low-mid level corruption. I know they take a risk, but they'd make more money that way AND benefit their country/economy, too.
Any country that demands that you commit illegal acts to be an effective entrepreneur is one that is openly hostile to entrepreneurship. Plain and simple.
Get stuck much? You try to argue this point in every comment on this thread.
Shitty governance may be a cliche, but its a dealkiller in many ways. Its still prevalent in certain areas. Part of it is legal. Part of it is structural. There are some cultural dynamics as to why some things are as they are. Its more beneficial to understand the real problems, to think through them, and to know what you are up against. Than to deny they are figments of the imagination.
This is more or less exactly how foreign engineers trying to get permanent residency or in the States feel.
Both of these systems are horrible, and need exact documentation regarding number of applications processed, along with specific targets. They also need to be staffed with people eager to do their job and welcome people in unless there are specific, real concerns, not actively try to keep them out by any means possible, including infinitely long "processing" delays.
[edit: not exactly sure why I'm being downvoted here, but downvoters, please do try and leave a comment if possible. thanks!]
I'd like to see how you do either - We both have throwaway profiles, commenting about stuff we are offended about and by your definition add nothing to the real discussion ;)
Reading between the lines of the article suggests that the officials wanted a bribe (which is also what several commenters pointed out). I have never, ever been in any experience like that with a US official (been in the US since 2010 on a student visa).
I'm not sure whether said commenters have ever tried to transact business in India, but the picture is slightly more complex than slipping a thousand-rupee note into someone's hand and getting your work done. Often, the average Indian official is overworked, severely underpaid, and has living quarters that are in a far-flung, horrible area which is probably worse than the homeless shelter in a typical American city if you compare the quality of life and amenities. Sometimes, these officials are on the lookout for money, other times they are in a severely strained psychological state, and need some form of empathy.
(Note: I freely admit that is a case that is very different from the States -- just saying that it is not a cut and dried form of corruption, as some seem to insist. And for that matter, the US has a lot of institutionalized corruption in the form of lobbying.)
I have not downvoted you but can tell you why others are. You implied equivalence in the two systems, which is nonsense. India's issues are due to corruption. The US immigration system is instead faced with a very high load, inadequate resources, and a great many people trying to game it, which all cause it to be quite conservative and precise. But it is VERY different from India both in problem and solution.
Why are there "inadequate resources" for the US immigration system? And if there are, why can the same argument be not applied to the Indian case? (There is plenty of illegal immigration into India as well, read up on it if you're interested.)
For what it's worth -- I did not mean to imply that the reasons for why both systems are screwed up are the same, and agree wholly with the statement that it "is VERY different from India". I just meant to highlight the fact that they both are screwed up, and the end result of a feeling of extreme frustration and helplessness for legal immigrants is the same.
Also, trying to suggest that corruption is an issue exclusive to India is pretty ridiculous as well. The US has an ample amount of institutionalized corruption in the form of lobbying and related practices.
> Why are there "inadequate resources" for the US immigration system? And if there are, why can the same argument be not applied to the Indian case?
The resource issue is fundamentally different. The US problem is that there are not enough people to process the enormous number of applications the country receives. The India problem is that the workers aren't paid well enough, resulting in a culture of bribery. Unlike in India, bribery of US visa officials is pretty rare.
> Also, why is it "people trying to game it" when it's the States, and "corruption" when it is in India?
By "people trying to game it", I meant prospective immigrants trying everything they can think of to manipulate the system. For some reason you seem to think that bribery is common in the US immigration system.
> The US has an ample amount of institutionalized corruption in the form of lobbying.
This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
> The US problem is that there are not enough people to process the enormous number of applications the country receives. The India problem is that the workers aren't paid well enough, resulting in a culture of bribery.
I don't exactly see the validity of this argument. There are a lot of people without jobs in the USA right now. Last I checked the unemployment rate was pretty high. So if I understand correctly, what you are saying is that the Government in the States does not have enough money, or for some reason, is not willing to pay people to process these applications.
Neither does the Indian Government. It's pretty cash-strapped as well. You are right that this does lead to bribery in the Indian scenario, and just plain slowness of processing in the US one. The end result for legal immigrants, as I have already said, is pretty similar.
> For some reason you seem to think that bribery is common in the US immigration system.
Not exactly. Look below for why I do think this is true, indirectly.
>The US has an ample amount of institutionalized corruption in the form of lobbying.
In the US, "political lobbying" involving donations of millions of dollars routed through channels too diffuse for the common person to understand can result in laws being changed, leading to "legal" routes to whatever you want. In India, you pay a Government official a wad of notes, and your job is done. I fail to see how one system is inherently better than the other.
The US system is also more fair, since you can't bribe your way to what you want. Transparency does wonders for creating a healthy business environment.
The situation is pretty much identical in Sri Lanka. If you don't know the right people or don't grease the right wheels, whatever proposal you have is pretty much DOA.
Spend cash. Make friends. Then, carry on with your business.
Derek Sivers is working on a new start-up called Wood Egg. Wood Egg is producing "Entrepreneur’s Guides to Asia" that are updated every year. He choose 16 countries in which he combines insights and instructions for starting business in 16 countries in Asia. One of those countries is India.
You can see a list of questions that are answered about operating a start-up in India here: http://woodegg.com/in
If you are not familiar with who Derek Sivers is, you can learn more about him at his website: http://sivers.org/ Most notably, he started CD Baby which he sold for $22M.
I have been seriously considering moving to India to set up an IT development shop for my UK company. It seems the bureaucratic path of least resistance is for my UK company to hire an Indian company to do the work. But I don't want to outsource the work - I want to be the lead programmer and have day-to-day management control.
So here's my proposed solution: I would say to an Indian accountant, "Please set up an Indian company which you own and are the director. The company would (a) rent an office of my choosing; (b) hire employees of my choosing; (c) pay the director's fees; (d) issue a contract to help me get a 5-year business visa. The company would make a profit of exactly zero because its sales to my UK company would exactly cover its costs."
Because there is some truth in "you get what you pay for". The ratio of good to bad programmers in India is the same as anywhere else[1]. But the pool is quite a bit larger than anywhere else, and there is a massive push of people into IT and IS because of the disproportionate pay. This combines to make very, very difficult to find significant talent[2]. It's comparable to the sudden influx of people into comp sci tracks in the US in the late 90s, but with a population base that's triple the size.
If you're looking for people to follow an exact, detailed, spec that you or other senior developer has written -- without exercising any independent though[3]; or if you have already located skilled individuals then it's worth going ahead.
Otherwise, make sure it's the right move for your business. The cost can easily run deeper than expenses. The talent is there, but you're going to have a hell of a time finding it if you don't have an connections.
[1], [2]: experience in hiring while working for a large US company that employed multiple large indian hiring mills, most notably TCS and InfoSys.
[3] the vast majority of the remote hires out of India that I've worked with both at the company above, and subsequent employment.
Thanks for the feedback! I have other non-business reasons to be in India, but yes 'cheaper developers' is certainly one reason.
You are right that you generally get what you pay for, and I've heard numerous horror stories from foreigners who have tried to hire Indian workers. I have no IT-related connections and would be looking to hire programmers who show initiative and are capable of independent thought. That might sound impossible but I think it's worth a shot - I guess I'm trying to be the Oakland A's of software development [1]. If I couldn't find an excellent programmer in a year I would give up and go home, but even in that case I don't think I'd regret the experience.
I studied in India about a decade ago and remember it being the same.
I never faced the shenanigans this guy did, but wow the red tape was mind-boggling.
Just to get admission to the university, I had to get approved by the police commissioner of Hyderabad(then a city of 5 million), which involved an actual meeting with the guy.
This despite being in the country on an Indian Government scholarship.
Welcome to the world of immigration. Common sense makes very little sense that. Is not a case just for India, it is the case for every country out there, including the US.
It is mostly easy to get a short term visa and then extend it, rather than asking for a 5 year visa. lets turn the tables around, would the US issue a five year visa to a entrepreneur trying to come in?
Does that make US a bad place for entrepreneurs? I call bullshit.
54 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 117 ms ] threadHe was asking the wrong kind of questions. I figured out the right question when I was made told "the officer is busy at the moment", and asked to wait in an empty room. After sitting idly for about half an hour, I realized that the right question was "is there a fee that I could pay to make things go faster?" My task was accomplished in the next five minutes.
Of course, I'm Indian, and this was not at a visa office. I don't mean this as advice to "Alex", but the rusty machine runs on greased palms.
1. Have cash ready 2. Know someone in the bureaucracy and 1.
I am yet to figure out a third way.
Ok sarcasm apart, I didn't think getting a work Visa to India would be so difficult but yes the bureaucracy is strangling. I had to visit the Passport office 3 times to renew my passport. It's like your whole future depends on the whims and fancies of a single government official.
And there is no coordination between different government departments. For instance India has come with this new SSN like Unique Identification Number (UID) thing called Aadhaar (Support in Hindi). Government says it is a valid proof of identity, it says so on the Passport web site as well as a valid documents accepted for proof of address but as my colleague recently experienced, the passport officers flatly refuse to accept Aadhaar card as proof of address! If you want your passport, produce the document that I ask for, I don't care what the web site says!
So, a whole nation is bad because a dozen officers were lazy? I really love the prostitute-ish ways Techcrunch goes sometimes to get pageviews. Well, it's their style anyway (Apple vs Samsung articles, anyone?)
Let's forget Techcrunch now.
First, I would like to point out certain things about the Indian eco-system for Entrepreneurs.
If you plan to run a max-profit, high efficiency startup, India it is. Period.
I say 'high efficiency' because you can optimize a lot of things for maximum profit.
Programmers are dead cheap. By programmers, I mean real programmers. You can hire decent programmers for $150-$200 a month. And that's a pretty standard amount in the IT scenario in India. The last time I checked people were paying $1000-$2000 for an average marketer who cold calls and emails random people in Western countries.
Of course, the next thing you'd argue is about the 'quality' of the programmers. See, these are real people. I know you get to meet a lot of shitty Indians everywhere. They're all over freelancing market places, take your money and do a shitty job. Agreed. But these people are not the 100% of the IT work force in India. They're probably like 30-40% which is large, but they are very much employable. All you need to do is just teach them the right way to do things and they'll grasp. And they improve. Just like everybody else. They're also people like us, right?
Next, I say 'maximum profit' because there's a lot of things that will save you money in India.
Need some office space? Here you go, starting from $60 a month. And these are in posh locations we're talking about (Contrary to popular belief, India has a lot of posh locations which were not shown in Slumdog Millionaire. Again, sensationalism. Oh this bastardized media!)
So, you can get a decent lawyer for $100-200. These guys take care of all your company incorporation, etc. Need an auditor to file taxes? That's just $100 a year.
Let's do the math for an American incorporation?
$200-$600 for Incorporating an LLC $50-$100/yr for Registered agent. Attorney fees - $1000-$15000 (decent attorney)
Travel is dead cheap in India. For $10 you can travel between two states comfortably on a Volvo A/C bus. Traveling within the city? That's just $2 cents. Or $1 cent. Actually even less. Depends on your mode.
Safety. I know you've been reading a lot of rape and stuff in the news channel. So, everybody gets to read only the bad parts (Media, again). However, there are a lot of posh, decent areas where there are cops circling around almost 24/7 till night. These places cost slightly extra, but they are totally worth it.
Also, it is very important that you realize that India has rape incidents mean the whole nation is spread out with rapists. Rape cases are most often encountered in the northern region. It's safe to say that Southern India is pretty safe (much much safe) compared to North India, which is almost full of sex-starved assholes (vague generalizaion)
This is not to say that South India has no rape at all. Just like any other country, abuse exists, but it's pretty controlled in the South. The last time a child molester was caught, he was shot dead in an encounter. (encounters of nasty criminals are pretty common here). Just avoid going out in the nights to lonely places and you should be pretty safe. Avoid public transportation if you can, or opt for deluxe buses/trains. India is as safe as any other country if you take some general precautions.
Now back to our start up. If you started up in the United states/United Kingdom, you'd be blowing out money like water. But if you start up in India and seek funding from abroad, most likely people will avoid you because you are an India, and the complications involved. My advice - Setup a C-Corp...
Example? Recent college grads who already code.
This shows you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. A decent programmer will cost you close to $1000/month; a good one with experience will cost you upwards of $2000 per month.
As always, you get what you pay for.
Talk about all those dudes working in their dream MNC's like Wipro, etc?
Dude, everyone starts somewhere - The amount doesn't determine quality. If we go by that logic, you live in India and you're probably a shitty dude because you're not making anywhere as much as your American counter parts. Get over this mentality dude. Price != quality always.
Electricity went out? Sorry, sir, but all our technicians are busy and we won't be able to come fix the lines for another two or three days. Need a faster internet connection? Sorry sir, we're not handling those requests right now. Need to move into a larger building? All of a sudden the building inspectors are looking very closely at the interior plans of the new office.
Faster internet connection? Again you have a cliched mentality. You can get an 8Mbps connection with 5min so far for this entire month for $20.
Wake up buddy, this idea that an entire nation is full of shit just because you read articles about a particular place in the news doesn't make sense.
By that logic, everyone in the United States should be eating only burgers, be ridiculously obese and die of heart attack before 30.
(All numbers for Pune, about 1-2 years ago.)
I did a startup in India, mainly for the cheap labor. I'd happily expand and set up shop in India again, depending on the circumstances. But lets be realistic, rather than pushing hype.
Now that we know how strong you are with Math, I'm not surprised I haven't heard about your startup. And also read my comment fully, I only talk in favor of South India. North India is the real third world.
If you think hiring programmers at cheap price is maximizing profit , its exploitation my friend , it's called making profit on misery of unemployment situation in the country.
There are un-employed employable people in the $200 range. You'll never understand the scenario in India, because you're not from India. But, you're right, I have a very crude mindset about exploiting these people. I realize my mistake. Sorry.
I'm giving specific numbers here mainly because there may be Indians who want to return home and start here.
Banglore is expensive because of the sheer number of IT companies there.
Come to chennai:
I can get you:
a posh OFFICE SPACE (Not a fucking apartment) for $60 in a posh area.
a sole proprietorship for less than $100
a decent grad for $200 - but not from the top Universities, though. Why? Because it's a cliched mindset that the best people come from the best universities. Have you watched Ratatouille?
"Not anyone can become a great artist, but a great artist can come from anywhere."
Please, I urge you to refresh this kind of attitude (Heavier pay = better quality employee, Better University = better grad)
I am aware that good people come from all universities. For me top university is a useful filter. When hiring, especially as a small company, I need some way to filter down to a smaller candidate pool to interview. So my thinking is: better university = higher probability of finding better grad.
Please provide citations or stop pulling statistics out of your own biased opinions. As an Indian, nothing makes me more infuriated than to see this "Oh North India bad! South India good" thing. And I really don't see how this is even remotely related to the discussion and why you had to bring this in.
North India: recently South India: none
When was the last time you heard about a gang rape of young minor?
North India: Recently South India: Wasn't a gang rape, but the suspect was shot in an encounter and this was many many years back
When was the last time you heard about a pregnant woman being gang raped?
North India: Recently. South India: Many years back. Suspect issues death sentence.
So, how exactly is it my own biased opinion?
And that doesn't concern only India, it's the same thing in all countries with low-mid level corruption. I know they take a risk, but they'd make more money that way AND benefit their country/economy, too.
How is that friendly to entrepreneurs when you keep getting bullshit cease and desist letter from shell companies?
Stop this cliched bullshit dude.
This shows what a cliched mindset you have.
Again you have a cliched mentality.
Why? Because it's a cliched mindset.
Get stuck much? You try to argue this point in every comment on this thread.
Shitty governance may be a cliche, but its a dealkiller in many ways. Its still prevalent in certain areas. Part of it is legal. Part of it is structural. There are some cultural dynamics as to why some things are as they are. Its more beneficial to understand the real problems, to think through them, and to know what you are up against. Than to deny they are figments of the imagination.
Both of these systems are horrible, and need exact documentation regarding number of applications processed, along with specific targets. They also need to be staffed with people eager to do their job and welcome people in unless there are specific, real concerns, not actively try to keep them out by any means possible, including infinitely long "processing" delays.
[edit: not exactly sure why I'm being downvoted here, but downvoters, please do try and leave a comment if possible. thanks!]
(Note: I freely admit that is a case that is very different from the States -- just saying that it is not a cut and dried form of corruption, as some seem to insist. And for that matter, the US has a lot of institutionalized corruption in the form of lobbying.)
For what it's worth -- I did not mean to imply that the reasons for why both systems are screwed up are the same, and agree wholly with the statement that it "is VERY different from India". I just meant to highlight the fact that they both are screwed up, and the end result of a feeling of extreme frustration and helplessness for legal immigrants is the same.
Also, trying to suggest that corruption is an issue exclusive to India is pretty ridiculous as well. The US has an ample amount of institutionalized corruption in the form of lobbying and related practices.
The resource issue is fundamentally different. The US problem is that there are not enough people to process the enormous number of applications the country receives. The India problem is that the workers aren't paid well enough, resulting in a culture of bribery. Unlike in India, bribery of US visa officials is pretty rare.
> Also, why is it "people trying to game it" when it's the States, and "corruption" when it is in India?
By "people trying to game it", I meant prospective immigrants trying everything they can think of to manipulate the system. For some reason you seem to think that bribery is common in the US immigration system.
> The US has an ample amount of institutionalized corruption in the form of lobbying.
This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
I don't exactly see the validity of this argument. There are a lot of people without jobs in the USA right now. Last I checked the unemployment rate was pretty high. So if I understand correctly, what you are saying is that the Government in the States does not have enough money, or for some reason, is not willing to pay people to process these applications.
Neither does the Indian Government. It's pretty cash-strapped as well. You are right that this does lead to bribery in the Indian scenario, and just plain slowness of processing in the US one. The end result for legal immigrants, as I have already said, is pretty similar.
> For some reason you seem to think that bribery is common in the US immigration system.
Not exactly. Look below for why I do think this is true, indirectly.
>The US has an ample amount of institutionalized corruption in the form of lobbying.
In the US, "political lobbying" involving donations of millions of dollars routed through channels too diffuse for the common person to understand can result in laws being changed, leading to "legal" routes to whatever you want. In India, you pay a Government official a wad of notes, and your job is done. I fail to see how one system is inherently better than the other.
Spend cash. Make friends. Then, carry on with your business.
You can see a list of questions that are answered about operating a start-up in India here: http://woodegg.com/in
If you are not familiar with who Derek Sivers is, you can learn more about him at his website: http://sivers.org/ Most notably, he started CD Baby which he sold for $22M.
So here's my proposed solution: I would say to an Indian accountant, "Please set up an Indian company which you own and are the director. The company would (a) rent an office of my choosing; (b) hire employees of my choosing; (c) pay the director's fees; (d) issue a contract to help me get a 5-year business visa. The company would make a profit of exactly zero because its sales to my UK company would exactly cover its costs."
Is this a reasonable approach?
Is it just a cost benefit - cheaper developers?
Because there is some truth in "you get what you pay for". The ratio of good to bad programmers in India is the same as anywhere else[1]. But the pool is quite a bit larger than anywhere else, and there is a massive push of people into IT and IS because of the disproportionate pay. This combines to make very, very difficult to find significant talent[2]. It's comparable to the sudden influx of people into comp sci tracks in the US in the late 90s, but with a population base that's triple the size.
If you're looking for people to follow an exact, detailed, spec that you or other senior developer has written -- without exercising any independent though[3]; or if you have already located skilled individuals then it's worth going ahead.
Otherwise, make sure it's the right move for your business. The cost can easily run deeper than expenses. The talent is there, but you're going to have a hell of a time finding it if you don't have an connections.
[1], [2]: experience in hiring while working for a large US company that employed multiple large indian hiring mills, most notably TCS and InfoSys. [3] the vast majority of the remote hires out of India that I've worked with both at the company above, and subsequent employment.
You are right that you generally get what you pay for, and I've heard numerous horror stories from foreigners who have tried to hire Indian workers. I have no IT-related connections and would be looking to hire programmers who show initiative and are capable of independent thought. That might sound impossible but I think it's worth a shot - I guess I'm trying to be the Oakland A's of software development [1]. If I couldn't find an excellent programmer in a year I would give up and go home, but even in that case I don't think I'd regret the experience.
[1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1210166/
I never faced the shenanigans this guy did, but wow the red tape was mind-boggling.
Just to get admission to the university, I had to get approved by the police commissioner of Hyderabad(then a city of 5 million), which involved an actual meeting with the guy.
This despite being in the country on an Indian Government scholarship.
It is mostly easy to get a short term visa and then extend it, rather than asking for a 5 year visa. lets turn the tables around, would the US issue a five year visa to a entrepreneur trying to come in?
Does that make US a bad place for entrepreneurs? I call bullshit.