HN Explorer

T-Mobile Rocks (avc.com)

290 points by zenmaker ↗ HN
Great points from Fred Wilson. And accordingly to Pogue's NYT article, they signed up more new subs in the last quarter than the big 3 combined. But, in light of their service map and much more limited travel, curious if it's enough to make you switch? Trying to figure this out myself...

186 comments

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kiba
My entire family is on t-mobile and I am glad we are. I wish they would tell samsung to drop their samsung cruft, though.
matwood
I'm also moving from AT&T back to t-mo. It will save me a little money, but the main reason is to show t-mo that I support how they treat customers.
e28eta
I just switched to T-Mobile with my iPhone 5S, largely on principle. My monthly bill won't go down much and my service has gotten worse, but I'm so happy to leave AT&T and support what T-Mobile is doing. The new international roaming policy is icing on the cake.
MacsHeadroom
Your bill won't go down much?

5GB of 4g internet with 3g speeds after that, unlimited texting, and 100 minutes of non-wifi talk (unlimited on wifi) per month is only $30 flat on T-Mobile if you buy the start-up kit at Walmart.

If you need more minutes than that you can either call over wifi, pay $0.10/minute or talk all you want for free over Wifi/3g/4g using a VoIP app like GrooveIP.

anxrn
Really? I did the same, my bill went down 50% (this is on top of a sweet discount I had on AT&T). But I see your point, I'd switch even if the savings weren't as good, they treat you like real customers, not sheep.
ImprovedSilence
I would really really like to join T-mobile, but I'm just really hesitant based on coverage area....
mistermcgruff
I just switched off of tmobile to verizon b/c I thought it incredibly unfriendly. They said I'd get 4g in Atlanta. But I didn't on 3 separate devices. I couldn't get service at all at my intown house which seems insane for a major city. When I tried to get out of my contract because they'd said I'd get service and I didn't they pulled up a map of their service area and said I was mistaken. I wrote letters I tweeted etc. They basically told me to fuck off.
bbarn
Interesting. I've never been treated badly by any of their support staff, but I definitely have the "doesn't work in my own home" problem with them, as many other friends do. It perplexes me because AT&T works just fine inside my apartment, and I believe they are on close to the same frequency. Weaker signals perhaps?
selectodude
AT&T has HSPA+ on 850MHz and 1900MHz, T-Mobile uses 1700MHz and 1900MHz, so the building penetration is significantly worse. However, due to the failed AT&T acquisition, T-Mobile phones can now roam on AT&T's 850MHz 3G spectrum, so most of the coverage issues indoors should disappear soon if they haven't already.
bbarn
I didn't realize the frequencies were so dramatically different. If I remember my basic electronics, that's double the wavelength for the AT&T signals and that makes complete sense. Thanks.
kevingadd
I ended up switching to T-Mobile for their $30 prepaid plan - 5GB of data (not at reduced 2G speeds either, actual data) a month, plus a reasonable amount of voice minutes and the ability to text. Way cheaper than what I'd pay on AT&T or other carriers, really simple to set up.
eropple
I was using that plan, but I was finding that I didn't really have enough voice minutes (100 was less than I'd need). T-Mobile does throttle after 2GB on that plan, though that wasn't a big deal for me. The big problem for me was that T-Mobile's coverage area sucks; there were whole areas of Boston and Cambridge where I got absolutely no signal.

I recently moved to the $45 unlimited-everything plan on Straight Talk, which uses AT&T SIMs, and I'm pretty happy with it. (I don't know if they too throttle over 2GB, but I rarely hit it anyway.)

kevingadd
The few months where I need more than 100 minutes, I can just add balance to the account and keep making calls. I usually just use Skype.
gergles
T-Mobile throttles after 5GB on that plan, not 2. Straight Talk straight up terminates your data connection after 2 GB. They claim that they throttle, but they effectively terminate it - the throttled connection is so slow and has so many packets dropped that I couldn't use a single app on my 'throttled' phone without it timing out and giving up.
eropple
I've read that elsewhere, but that doesn't match my experience in the New England area on TMO. I had my connection completely croak after my phone read 2GB of data usage. Maybe the behavior is different in different geographic areas?

(The last time I went over 2GB was a year ago on TMO when my home internet wasn't yet installed, so for me it's basically academic.)

kevingadd
Are you sure you weren't just on a plan with a 2GB cap? Different plans are different.
eropple
$30, "Unlimited" data and text, 100 minutes?
naner
I was interested in StraightTalk but this article scared me a bit:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2414418,00.asp

eropple
Yeah, I've seen that. I don't really care, though - my real number is on Google Voice, so if I get tossed I'll just put my TMO SIM back in my phone. In the meantime, I get way better coverage.
judk
All I see is a giant popup ad bigger than my screen. Is it a news story about cell phones?
MacsHeadroom
So talk using VoIP over 3g/4g and have unlimited minutes.

T-Mobile will not throttle until at least 5GB. In my experience they just don't throttle at all though.

mahyarm
VoIP for me over 3G tends to be not nearly as stable as an actual phone call.
selectodude
I think the plan works over LTE, which would make it a much more tenable position once T-Mobile's LTE rollout is a bit more fleshed out.
hazelnut
Do you have a link to the $30 prepaid plan? I can just find the $50 one (?)
kevingadd
As mcpherrinm said, you can get a SIM for it at Walmart, or you can get it online. I got it online:

http://prepaid-phones.t-mobile.com/prepaid-plans

Scroll down and you'll see '100 minutes talk | Unlimited text | First 5 GB at up to 4G speeds'

You have to buy the SIM card online and have them ship it to you; then you open it up and use the activation info in the box to set up the $30 plan and pay for your first month. It's pretty straightforward. When I did it the SIM only cost like a buck so it's pretty much as advertised - no hidden costs.

bbarn
I love the service I get from T-mobile, as far as the human element goes. I've been with them for a long time and they treat me very well when I need them to.

Unfortunately, I can't tolerate the service the network itself provides anymore. It used to be fairly functional inside city limits here (Chicago), but now it works poorly downtown, often shows max signal on HSPA+ but doesn't actually have a data connection, and if I leave city limits to go for a drive, I'm looking at probably 20 minutes outside the city before I'm on a non-data or roaming connection.

I just started a new job that provides smartphone service, so I'll probably move my t-mobile account to a minimum amount per month and get a little nokia flip phone for when I'm not doing work related things. - Another big plus for t-mobile is they'll be happy to change my monthly plan without some badgering renewal bit, I've done it twice and they always accommodate me.

srikrishnan
"companies sit around trying to figure out what customer charges they can get away with" That is so true! I used to work for a US telco and I've read all the stories about the "mystery charges".

Also, I must say that telcos, and even banks, in India are to an extent like this. Had one bank put a 1.5$ on my credit card statement for an analysis that they did on my spend the previous month - which indicated that 100% of my card spend was towards airfare. I used the card only once, EVER, and I did not ask for that analysis! I ended up spending 3$ (counting just travel cost) fighting the 1.5$ charge, but I absolutely wasn't going to let them have it!

Imagine telcos making an extra 1$ on some random charge on some 10 million customers. Even that is a lot of money!

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arikrak
I think the two thing that matter are reception and price. T-mobile clearly wins on price, but in many areas its reception is not as good as AT&T or Verizon.
skrause
> Because if all of us move to T-Mobile, the other carriers will have no choice to join them in being customer friendly.

No, if all people move to T-Mobile, they will just start behaving like the other carriers. The only reasons they're customer friendly is because they have a low market share and try to win customers, not because it's their company culture. Just look at their German parent company, Deutsche Telekom is the German AT&T.

stevenleeg
But at least there are no 2 year contracts to keep us locked into T-Mobile if they ever turn into dirtbags!
jamiepenney
Until they get big enough to put them in. I've run through this cycle before with ISPs here in New Zealand - they're great while they're small, then once they hit a double digit percentage of the market, they shit all over you - raise fees, cut service centres (or outsource them), and add fixed term contracts and other bollocks.
noloqy
Though T-Mobile seems to have adopted an interesting strategy in the US - as a European customer I find their proposition not to be notably better than that of other carriers. Here, it takes European commissioners to lower international roaming charges. T-Mobile doesn't rock across the globe.
timthorn
As an EU customer, try roaming to the USA and seeing if the Commissioner has done anything about those charges...
kuschku
The commisioners only lowered the charges for users in the EU roaming in other EU-countries. For example, if you bought your contract in Germany, you'll have to pay only 0.10 € / minute while you're in Denmark.

(Which is quite funny, 'cause I have to pay 0.11€ / minute for calling to other german carriers.)

Shivetya
I am so tired of two year contracts, but I have a list of 'approved' carriers I can choose from and have my phone partially paid for. Until recently T-Mobile was not on the list. Now all I need to do if wait out my current two year with the other guys.

There is certainly nothing smart about paying seventy, eighty, or more, per month for a smart phone. If anyone is smart its the guys charging for it and getting it.

greenmountin
Two year contracts are a lie, a prop, an illusion. If you break it, you basically pay back the prorated part of the phone discount you got. If you go to a carrier without phone subsidies, they'll charge you less month-to-month an amount equal to the monthly prorated phone discount.

This was my realization when pricing out basic phone service with T-Mobile, ATT, etc. You have to really work hard to pay different. Just don't be afraid to break the contract, it's not a real penalty.

goggles99
You clearly have never used an MVNO(Reseller)

I just went to Verizon and chose a free SmartPhone (Droid 4) with a 500MB data plan. It was $80/mo 2 yr contract

I can buy that phone outright (brand new) for $300.

If I go to PagePlus (Verizon MVNO) and sign up for their $1200 Minute, $3000 Text/MMS 500MB $30/mo plan here is what I paid after two years.

Verizon - $80 * 24 = $1,920

PagePlus - $30 * 24 + $300 (phone) + $50 roaming (average usage cost for 2 yrs) = $1,020

And what did I get for my $900 difference? (That is $37.50/mo BTW) A big "Verizon" label on my phone, and a two year contract.

You could get two plans and phones from PagePlus and still pay less.

I realize that there are other factors like level of customer service, and no roaming charges that VZW and ATT die-hards will tell you about. Well, in my experience, the service is no better and most people almost never use roaming service while using a Verizon MVNO. I would say that i have only spent around $20 in the last two years from roaming.

Other factiods: Have Verizon or ATT and want to change your plan options (Minutes, Data amount ETC)? Sure - that will require a new two year contract. Don't want a new phone. Well you will still be paying the same regardless. Break the contract and you will still pay the same penalty. This seems to refute your claim that you are just paying back a subsidy.

Want a new phone with your new contract? OK, choose a "free" one from a list whose retail prices have a $150-$200 difference in price. Are you going to pay less per month if you opt for the cheaper (3g) free one? If your statement was true you should.

mynameisvlad
Generally, MVNO customers have lowest priority on a network. I know AT&T, for example, gives network priority to Postpaid first, then Prepaid, then MVNOs. So on a congested network, you'd be the first to be kicked off.
Hengjie
Generally speaking, I don't think the experience would be as bad as you say. Yes they get the lowest priority but given how good AT&T's network is, you generally won't be kicked off and would probably incur a reduction in speed. The reality is, you aren't going to need (insert super fast speed here) on a day to day basis. There are exceptions of course, such as tethering or streaming content, but really, how often would you be doing that and need it? This is why I don't buy the 4G argument, especially when there're carriers that ask us to pay more simply to be on 4G.
commandar
I think that's going to depend heavily on where you are. I was in Chicago last week for work and found out the hard way that VZW LTE is severely over capacity inside the Loop. I'm a postpaid customer and had to force my phone to CDMA data on a few occasions just to get a usable connection.

Knowing that I'm going to be travelling a fair amount in the near future on business, I'm not sure if it'd be worth gambling that the host network for my MVNO wouldn't be similarly over capacity elsewhere resulting in me getting lower priority.

draebek
FWIW, Verizon MVNOs do not get to use Verizon's LTE network AFAIK. Actually, that may be the case with AT&T too? I'm not sure.
anonymoushn
AT&T MVNOs other than the two owned by AT&T do not seem to get to use LTE. That said, non-LTE 4G is fine.
bsimpson
I made a spreadsheet for my girlfriend when she bought the iPhone 5s. She was debating between AT&T, StraightTalk, and AIO wireless. On AIO, you're still better off on AT&T over the course of a 2 year contract by $90. If you choose StraightTalk, you'll save $174 over 2 years. (That savings goes up to $299 if you buy an AT&T phone and then immediately cancel and pay the ETF; both prices combined are less than the $749 sticker price.)

The trick is that most people don't replace their phones on a schedule. Some phones don't hold enough of a charge after 18 months and get replaced early; some people are still happy with their 4 year old phone. If you are on a pay-as-you-go plan and hold onto a phone for longer than 2 years, the savings start to really add up.

The other trick is that many people can get pay-as-you-go prices on contract, through their corporation, credit union, or university. When I was on AT&T in 2009, I used my university's alumni association to bring my cost down to $55 per month.

judk
What phones from the 2009 still have a serviceable battery and USB/charge port? And what are the 2013 versions of these phones?
officemonkey
A friend of mine is still using an original iPhone.
askew
Crikey. They must have the patience of a saint! Ended up having to use a 3GS when my 4 failed, and the number of times I wanted to throw it against a wall while trying to browse the web on it...
officemonkey
He pretty much just uses it to make phone calls.
alexpopescu
I think this is quite incorrect. I've recently got the new iPhone and looked at the possible options across AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile (I haven't included Sprint for a reason I cannot recall right now).

If you calculate the costs over a 2 year span, the differences are quite significant: http://jots.mypopescu.com/post/61007400356/iphone-5s-choosin...

_nb_: I haven't included any interest/depreciation rates though.

dwaltrip
T-Mobile savings might be enough to more than cover the cost of breaking your contract. Their best plans are $30-$50 a month.
001sky
But at least there are no 2 year contracts...

The usa was 5 years behind the eu in forcing contracts, so yes this is just another marketing gimmick. classic bait & switch tactic. all of the carriers forced contracts after they bought out the regional mobile providers during the decade 1995-2005.

tomca32
Exactly.

In Croatia, T-Mobile is absolutely the worst carrier. Highest fees, worst customer support. They can get away with it because they have the most customers and it's just too much of a hassle to change providers.

At least that's how it was around 3 years ago. I don't live there anymore so maybe something changed (I doubt it).

devx
Then you move to the "next" T-mobile. The point is to encourage this behavior, and punish the bad one by leaving as soon as it happens (same goes for Verizon/AT&T) now.
faddotio
The marketplace isn't static. If all people move to T-Mobile, other carriers will be forced to become less hostile to their customers.
arrrg
Yeah, the goal is to have a marketplace where market pressures lead to all competitors being incentivized to behave like T-Mobile does currently. I’m just not sure whether that’s possible.

And I agree, Deutsche Telekom in Germany is awful and incompetent when it comes to customer service. If only their network weren’t so goddamn great … (It feels like a reversal of the situation in the US: Their technology is great and they are very competent at building their infrastructure – but how they treat customers is the exact opposite of that. And when I say technology I mean the network, not the technology they use to interface with customers. Stupid story time: Recently, after changing some notification SMS setting online, I got an e-mail thanking me for my change in contract and telling me that my monthly fee is €50, not the €50 minus €10 online ordering discount I knew I got when I entered into the contract. When calling their support hotline I was told that their system is apparently unable to display individual discounts on any and all communication with the customer except the monthly bill. The support agent also told me that I wasn’t the first person to call him because of that …)

thirdsun
Did you ever try D2/Vodafone? Not that they are significantly better - after all and as you know they are the other big one - but their prices are more competitive in my opinion and more importantly in my experience their network/infrastructure is far ahead. I'm always surprised by the weak reception some of my friends that actually use t-mobile suffer from - and this is not limited to certain areas, but more of a general impression I got.
commandar
>And I agree, Deutsche Telekom in Germany is awful and incompetent when it comes to customer service. If only their network weren’t so goddamn great … (It feels like a reversal of the situation in the US: Their technology is great and they are very competent at building their infrastructure – but how they treat customers is the exact opposite of that. And when I say technology I mean the network, not the technology they use to interface with customers.

Amusingly, you just described VZW in the United States. Fantastic network, absolutely awful at dealing with their customers.

thirdsun
I was just going to say the same thing - here in Germany Deutsche Telekom is at the very opposite end of the spectrum: expensive plans, premium prices, no innovations to be found anywhere.

It is interesting how even huge corporations like Telekom adjust their marketing and overall strategy depending on their market position. I like how they handle their role as an underdog in the US, but I'm not under any illusions. This isn't a grand gesture of goodwill, but a necessary evil in their eyes, I guess.

rogerbinns
T-Mobile in the US is a separate company. The German parent has tried to sell it in the past, and no doubt would gladly sell it in the future should a willing suitor come along and the regulators okay it (that caused the last sale to fail).
hkmurakami
To elaborate, Sprint and T-Mobile have been trying to merge, arguing that scale is fundamental in competing in the market. Regulators have argued that 4 carriers are essential to keeping parity and competition in the market.
Guvante
Actually Sprint and T-Mobile have never officially tried to merge. So far all the executives have done is deny that such talks are in progress.

At one point AT&T tried to buy T-Mobile, citing Verizon being bigger as why it was okay. They even put a bunch of money on the line if it fell through. Regulators decided that either they wanted 4 parties, or that Verizon would be forced to buy Sprint to compete, leaving 2 parties. (I am not 100% certain which they said was the reason)

maxsilver
Actually, Sprint and T-Mobile are both on-record as planning on merging. They aren't planning to do so in the immediate future, but they both see the long-term end game being just three carriers in the entire US.

All they are waiting for is the DOJ to make a mistake and let it slip through.

"T-Mobile exeutives say Sprint merger the 'logical conclusion'" http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/25/4769794/t-mobile-executive...

"Sprint executives echo T-Mobile merger message" http://www.kansascity.com/2013/09/26/4509601/sprint-executiv...

tracker1
Aren't Sprint and T-Mobile using fairly different tech? Also, sprint is way over-sold
tammer
Good point. I've been trumpeting T-mobile lately for all the reasons cited in the article, but you're correct the real problem is a lack of regulation. T-mobile is the underdog only because they haven't had the benefit of decades of scheming and lobbying.
joelrunyon
The purpose isn't to pledge loyalty to one company forever - it's to vote with your dollars to encourage the type of behavior you'd like to see.

If enough people switch - the others will have to make some changes in order to stay competitive. He's not suggesting that we all pledge loyalty to t-mobile until the end of time.

Ntrails
I used a tethered unlimited data iphone 4 as my only internet for 18 months after I got my first job (and thus treated myself to a smartphone). Three (UK Carrier) never complained - even when I was downloading seasons of shows or 20gb games from steam. My usage was hundreds of GB.

As far as I am concerned that is worthy of loyalty, and I intend to remain with them unless they change their behaviour - even if not the absolute cheapest.

Bizarre that them doing what they said they would should surprise me and engender loyalty ofc, but it did. Just my 2 cents.

joepour
You say it like they are not already a massive telco. They might not have the market share in North America, but elsewhere they are very established.
walshemj
And its industry nick name was "Deutsche Bunders Pest" :-)
the1
what's wrong with virgin mobile?
mhurron
Nothing. I switched from Virgin to T-Mobile when it looked like I may be traveling internationally so I wanted a phone that would work in Europe. My coverage is a little better with T-Mobile and the ability to roam to other carriers in the event I am out of T-Mobile's coverage areas is nice. They had a better choice of phones too.

The only bad thing I would say with Virgin Mobile is about the roaming, but if you are sure you say in Sprints coverage area (in the US) then you probably won't have a problem. Other than that, I'll still recommend people look at Virgin when they are looking for new plans.

tfigment
I have Virgin and agree with the points here. Basically roaming on the $35/mo plan is non-existent but I have never had an issue with my phone not working in the areas I live and visit (unless there was a tower down). Sprint's 4G coverage is very poor so if you expect that then good luck but my phone is not so I don't mind yet and can easily switch to another carrier like T-Mobile when I do.
maxerickson
Virgin Mobile USA is owned by Sprint and only works on Sprint towers, roaming is explicitly non existent.
iSnow
The funny thing is, T-Mobile is not exactly renowned for customer friendlyness in their home market, Germany.
denysonique
Not sure about T-mobile being so great in the UK either
coherentpony
Tesco. I'm telling you, man, Tesco's customer service is so badass. Never had a problem with them. They also piggy-back off of O2's network, so I never have coverage problems unless I'm out in the sticks.
phaus
I'm glad that T-Mobile has become a customer focused company in recent months, but let's not forget that just a short while ago, they were just like all of the other major carriers.

T-Mobile had a sudden change of heart not because they give a shit about their customers, its because their network wasn't good enough for people to put up with typical carrier bullshit. As a normal carrier, they were losing money and customers so fast that they had to either change or go out of business.

I highly doubt they would have made the same philosophical changes if they had been successful doing things the scummy way.

chimeracoder
> I'm glad that T-Mobile has become a customer focused company in recent months, but let's not forget that just a short while ago, they were just like all of the other major carriers.

Not just that, but in other countries (not the US) where they have the dominant market position, they seem just as despised as Verizon and AT&T are in the US.

Not that I'm complaining; I enjoy the consumer-side benefits of competition as much as the next guy - it's just good to remember exactly where things stand.

cracker_jacks
T-Mobile had a sudden change of heart because they had a sudden change in CEO in 2012. He's the one that's been pushing the 'uncarrier' movement within the company.
mortenjorck
John Legere is... interesting. Check out the original 'uncarrier' press event from this summer: http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/26/4148836/stop-bullshit-says...

  "Carriers are really nice to you... once every 23 months.
  This is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard in my 
  entire life. Do you have any idea how much you're paying?"
This is not a quote from an angry blog commenter. This the CEO of the United States' fourth largest mobile service provider speaking at a press conference.

Refreshingly bizarre.

wyclif
Refreshingly honest, I would say.
phaus
It is refreshing to see a telecom executive make a statement like that, but its hard not to feel as if it might just be a clever marketing tactic.

Apparently he used to be the Chief Executive of AT&T Asia. I wonder how cellular service plans are structured there. I know that Europe has traditionally favored the no-contract plans that are just now starting to get attention in the U.S., I wonder if perhaps Asia does too.

alive-or-not
Same as Apple - when they were almost dead they had to use and contribute to open source projects and treat the customer fair. Nowadays they are making it clear all iThings out there belong to Apple and working hard to wall Mac OSX as well.
X-Istence
Apple still contributes to open source A LOT.
kunai
Barely. OpenDarwin is dead. WebKit was stolen from KHTML. CUPS has barely any development anymore. Apart from LLVM, what have they really contributed to OSS? Okay, it's more than Microsoft, but net contribution is still nothing compared to Google or Sun (when they were still alive).
matthewmacleod
KHTML was not stolen - it was used as the basis for Webkit in compliance with its licence, which is exactly how Open Source is supposed to work.

Have a look at http://www.apple.com/opensource/ - which outlines the Open Source components that Apple use and contribute to. You're right - it might not be as much as some other companies (though I don't know if it's practically less than Google or Sun) but they are consistently among the largest participants in Open Source among large tech companies.

dylandrop
I think my biggest beef with them is that they tend to make up for their small amount of OSS in a negative way by being such patent trolls. This is more true of their presence in the hardware world.
awad
Also note that Google's Blink project did the exact same
mikeash
WebKit is itself open source, so you can't discount that just because it was derived from another open source project.

Aside from LLVM/clang and WebKit (both of which are significant enough to deserve massive accolades all by themselves), you also have stuff like launchd (which didn't catch on outside Apple, but hardly their fault), libdispatch, and mDNS.

But apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

idupree
Historical note: Launchd might have caught on if Apple had open-sourced it sooner.

The author of the Upstart init system, Scott James Remnant, wrote in 2006,

"How does [Upstart] differ from launchd?

launchd is the replacement init system used in MacOS X developed as an “Open Source” project by Apple. For much of its life so far, the licence has actually been entirely non-free and thus it has only become recently interesting with the licence change.

[...]

Had the licence been sufficiently free at the point we began development of our own system, we would probably have extended launchd rather than implement our own. At the point Apple changed the licence, our own system was already more suitable for our purposes."

http://netsplit.com/2006/08/26/upstart-in-universe/

eonil
So what's the contribution of Google, Sun and MS? It's you who should show example if you want to claim.

Do you have any access to Google Search API? Or BigTable source? How about Google Maps? Google Apps? What Google is releasing is "Chrome" which stole(as like your word) from WebKit, and Android. (which actually stolen from Sun, so still in lawsuit)

Well there's more. V8, Dart and Go. Maybe bunch of funny dead projects can be included. But I don't see much difference with LLVM/Clang case. Let's treat them just apart.

IMO, Google is worse than Facebook or Twitter in perspective of server-side software contribution.

judk
Google is a major committer to Linux and to Java Guava, the premier general purpose library (standard library extension/replacement). And they paid Guido to work on Python for years.
phaus
Wasn't it Google that made a huge donation to Kubuntu after Ubuntu pulled the plug on supporting them?
gaadd33
From Sun? You mean Java, Solaris, DTrace, ZFS, etc?
rdtsc
> Apple still contributes to open source A LOT.

Oh wow you capitalized "A LOT". I am sure you'll be able to list at least 30 large known open source projects actively maintained or contributed to by Apple.

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jamesbritt
but let's not forget that just a short while ago, they were just like all of the other major carriers.

I've been using T-Mobile for five years or so and have always had really good customer service.

rscale
Why T-Mobile made the change is unimportant to me. I care that they made the change, and that they committed to it via zero lock-in contracts. If I feel that I'm not getting sufficient value at some point in the future, I can simply walk away from T-Mobile without spending $325/line in termination fees.

And as for the network, I'm fortunate that it's not a trade-off for me. T-Mobile's coverage has proven superior to AT&T's for my precise work/home/travel combination.

esw
>I'm glad that T-Mobile has become a customer focused company in recent months

I was a T-Mobile customer until the first iPhone came out, and they were fantastic back then. I'd switch back now if it weren't for the fact that they have lousy coverage in Vermont.

tytso
I've always had really good customer service with T-mobile. I remember once time almost 5-10 years ago when I needed help getting the right AT commands to connect to GPRS using Linux. The help desk heard me use the appropriate technical terms (AT commands, chat script, GPRS, etc.) and immediately forwarded me to the level 3 help desk folks who actually could handle technical questions, and they helped me even when I told them I was using Linux and could set up my own chat/expect script once I knew the required parameteres for their GPRS network.

Compare and contrast that with my previous experience with AT&T, and there was absolutely no comparison.

wyclif
Yes, disagree with the parent for this reason. I've been with T-Mobile since 1999/2000-ish when they were known as VoiceStream (they renamed it T-Mobile in July 2002). That was my personal phone. When I used company-issued phones on AT&T, Sprint and Verizon, the difference was readily apparent: T-Mobile always had better quality customer service than the other carriers, more appealing plans, easier to change plans when you wanted, &c.
lobster_johnson
Interestingly, just a couple of months ago T-Mobile had great online customer service -- you could log into your account and open a chat with a customer support person. They removed that in favour of a generic "support community" based on Jive. So now you have to "start a discussion" if you have a problem, or, annoyingly, call their support line.
drpgq
As a Canadian, I'm curious about the international roaming.
3825
If you are going back and forth often and end up spending more time than half the time south of the border, it might just work for you :)

Here is a quote from their fine print

> Not for extended international use; you must reside in the U.S. and primary usage must occur on our U.S. network. Device must register on our U.S. network before international use. Service may be terminated or restricted for excessive roaming or misuse.

throwawayyyz
I don't understand how they're paying $2000 a month to AT&T. We have 5 iPhones and 1 AT&T iPad on a family plan with unlimited text and very high number of minutes (can't remember exactly) and pay not more than $450.
nilkn
I was blown away by that number as well.
SwaroopH
I love T-mobile whenever I am in the US. Coupled with Google Voice and Nexus 4 (LTE works!), I pay way less than an AT&T contract + phone. The only time I was unhappy with their coverage was in my apartment in Mountain View this fall. Apart from that, I've never had to call their customer service. Every time I come back to US, I simply recharge my account online and get going in minutes.

I am curious to try out the Walmart plan (refer comments) next time and cut my costs by half.

stratosvoukel
2000 dollars per month? is this reality in the us? :/
21echoes
200, not 2000. for a family plan (reads like 4 or 5 people, so that's around $50 a month per person)
jeena
The article states $2000
anxrn
T-Mobile is shaking up the industry like Apple should have (and could have) done with the launch of the iPhone in 2007.
raverbashing
Yes

Too bad they turned down the iPhone when it was offered to them.

mikeash
Let's not discount what Apple pulled off. Before the iPhone, carriers ruled handsets with an iron fist, dictating what features they would have and what apps would be available.

Apple completely smashed that. Carriers now, for the most part, accept that they don't get to decide what your phone does, only how you use your connection with them. The carriers used to do things like disable Bluetooth and charge you extra to turn it back on, or force all apps to go through their own internal approval process and purchasing.

I'm not terribly happy with the status quo Apple has left us with. Rather than place control with us where it belongs, they've just moved control to Apple. Apple is a far better overlord to have than the carriers, but it's still not great. However, we should still recognize that Apple pulled off a massive change that nobody really thought could be done.

thirdsun
To be fair this seems to be a US-exclusive experience. Things like these were unheard of in Europe. I feel that some european carriers just rather recently learned a thing or two from the US-carrier playbook, like charging for tethering, approving/delaying software updates, etc.

Still, I'm glad that the invention carrier-approved and net-locked phones never/rarely made it across the ocean.

anxrn
Keep in mind when the first iPhone released, there was no App Store. And no plan for one, supposedly [1]. Apple had as much control over your phone as the other carriers did. And much more than it does now.

My comment was more about the leverage it had over the carriers and completely squandered. IIRC, AT&T was paying Apple $10 or so per user per month. A carrier paying a handset manufacturer a fee seems like a lot of leverage. At this point, Apple had the potential to turn the industry away from fleecing customers. Instead, in 2013, we're lauding an upstart-ish company for contract-free smartphones. Great progress, but its taken far far too long.

[1] http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jul/10/business/la-fi-tn-if...

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consonants
All carriers are shit, T-Mobile is no exception.
trimbo
I prefer to say they suck less.
tmzt
I'm wondering if there's a purpose-built, fast FirefoxOS device that works on T-Mobile that could help Fred make the transition.

Is there's anybody that knows of something faster than the ZTE-based phones?

jeena
I'm really confused when reading articles like this because it sounds like a different company to the one I know which was formed out of "Deutsche Post" during the 90ies and patronizing and shitting on its customers ever since, at least in Germany.

The biggest thing with them this year was their 384kbps Speed Throttle[1], where after your family consumed 75GB of data (download and upload) the speed of your DSL (flatrate) will go down to 384kbps for the rest of the month.

Ok you could say "this is Deutsche Telekom, the parent company, but T-Mobile is very different!" but sorry, that is not the case.

I wanted to buy a Alcatel One Touch Fire with Firefox OS when I was on holidays in Poland this year so I went to a T-Mobile store and well, there was advertising and everything and they even sold them there. But only together with a contract, which I didn't want (because I can't use it in Sweden where I live). They send me to another store so I went there, they told me the same and send me to a third store where they told me that they only sell a couple of them without a contract and only in the main cities.

I mean wtf? They have been doing advertisement all over the place that they sell it for 404 zl without a contract, even in those shops, but they wouldn't sell them to me, or they would but only with a two years contract which ended up costing around 1200 zl. So I gave up.

At home again I checked their website[2] again, and yep, there they still (and to this day) advertise it for 404 zl.

I later found out that if you have a polish ID you can order one for 404 zl from their website which I did with help of my fathers ID.

So they were just fucking with me, again, and yeah, this was not the first time. I had big time problems back then when I still lived in Germany and chose a different DSL provider after being very disappointed with T-Online. Basically they didn't send a technician for two months who would fix the tech so the new provider could provide me with internet so I was without internet for two months. That is kind of a big thing if you're working from home.

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/13/technology/deutsche-teleko... [2] http://www.t-mobile.pl/pl/indywidualni/telefony/telefon-ze-s...

hack_edu
T-Mobile US is almost entirely independent from the larger company in it's services and day to day operations.

And the bar is pretty low in most regards when you're up against Verizon and AT&T's business practices...

josh2600
So, shitty real answer:

It's not profitable for T-Mobile to sell you that device at $404 if they can get someone else to pay $1200. Yes, that's shitty, but from an economic perspective it doesn't make sense for them to sell that equipment to you. The equipment, even unsubsidized, is a loss leader for the service.

In short, it would be a good customer experience if they should you the phone, but it doesn't make economic sense.

Also, sort of unrelated, but I really don't understand all this T-Mobile love. The carriers went from eating a $400+ subsidy on every phone to eating $50 or less to acquire a new subscriber. The plans aren't THAT much cheaper, and they're still a joke compared to the cost of delivery (but I digress!).

I think T-Mobile is pro-consumer the same way AT&T is pro-consumer. They just happen to do a better job marketing it.

jeena
I wouldn't mind if they didn't advertise it for 404 zl (ca. $130) in the shop, on TV, the radio and in newspapers.
jrockway
T-mobile in the US has basically nothing to do with T-mobile in Europe. You can't even use a European T-mobile Wifi hotspot if you are a US T-mobile customer.
bsimpson
I bought a 1 month unlimited plan the last time I was in Germany, but went through 100MB in less than 3 days (and I was trying to be fairly conservative with my usage); the remainder of my trip had speeds so slow I could basically only use e-mail.
smcl
I'm usually not one to complain about what hits #1 spot on Hacker News, but this boils down to "I like T-Mobile, their customer service is good and I have a good plan with them" but not much else. Would it have been so highly upvoted if it wasn't from the "A VC" blog? I suspect not.
throwaway9848
Ting, Ting, Ting. A thousand times Ting.

A customer, not an employee. I won't gush, see ting.com, it's an MVNO on the Sprint network.

EDIT: It kind of bothers me that someone downvoted this. It's not like I used an affiliate link or stand to benefit from this. Sorry for sharing :P

jrockway
I don't think you actually save any money on Ting. Their biggest data plan is 3000M for $55 (with no text messages and no phone service), compared with T-mobile's unlimited everything for $70. The innovation they offer is that if you don't use anything and know you never will, you only pay $6 a month. But then again, I could get you the complete lack of calling, data, and text for $0 a month. You don't even have to buy a phone.
throwaway9848
I save a significant amount of money, but you're right that if you're a heavy mobile data user other plans might make more sense. I am not: less than 1K voice minutes, 1K texts, and 250MB data between 2 lines (~$800 up-front for pretty decent smartphones). I pay $35-50/month. And not having a contract is nice.

I would be remiss not to give them a huge amount of credit for their support staff. They really care about that. The only time I called in, a live person answered the phone after 1 or 2 rings and then proceeded to solve a somewhat technical problem without transferring me.

Anyway, I don't want to sound like a paid plug for them. But I like them a lot.

georgeott
Another very happy Ting.com customer here. We paid $150 a month for our 2 smartphones on Sprint. Now we pay $50 a month for both on Ting. Sure, we use wi-fi as much as possible. Our data use is 1gb per month. Could not be happier saving $100 a month!
ISL
Disclaimer: I liked Ting enough to buy Tucows stock.

My experience with Ting as a customer has been excellent. Rates are great, flexible, and sensible. Customer service has been good. Flexibility with onboarding used and refurbished phones has been easy.

For about what I paid for voice and SMS on Verizon a year ago, we have two smartphones and a hotspot running both a person and some hardware across the country. My tightwad father's adopted the service (his first cell phone), and has since added another line.

T-mobile is starting to do the right things, but Ting already is.

aestra
Only do light users save money. Heavy users pay more.

Only reason I didn't sign up is Sprint has bad reception here. If I wanted bad reception, I would have stayed with T-mobile.