There is such thing as having 'enough' in life. For many people, having a mediocre job is OK if you can simply take care of your family, and have a happy home life.
I for one, will never judge anyone who chooses happiness and life balance over career success.
It's the people giving up all those things for a tiny chance at career success that are the insane ones. Those 3 things are non-negotiable to me, and frankly, don't prevent career success.
I would want to add that our education system does not support/encourage a start-up/business/creative mindset.
Even today, most of the bachelors degree courses are oriented towards teaching for and endorsing high grades (just to qualify for jobs and PG entrance exams) rather than developing critical thinking.
I couldn't agree more. Dude, I am going through the same. Here is my solution.
Flat := I am not buying one. Life-long-renting rocks.
Marriage := No marriage till my business settles.
Family := My parents understand what I am doing. And I don't give a shit about anyone else.
A bit immature, shall I say? Everybody finds their own mojo in life, for some it is entrepreneurship. You will not be successful just by being in a profession, you have to be outstanding in that profession. Understand and appreciate other's choices. Entrepreneurship needs some wisdom too.
"Of course, she’s happily married and I, having failed 2 startups in the past, am still building another startup! (I hope this post reaches you, lady!)"
I'm not sure that this is specific to India - I think there's an obvious incompatibility between taking on financial responsibility for others and the level of risk inherent in start-ups.
The difference may just be that Indian's marry younger so it kicks in earlier.
I get what he's trying to say, but the rant is far too sophomoric.
> These relatives are probably the ones whose kids would have done “nothing” in their lives
The point could have been made without insulting their kids.
> One of my ex girlfriend had started talking about marriage barely when we had graduated ... Of course, she’s happily married and I, having failed 2 startups in the past, am still building another startup! (I hope this post reaches you, lady!)
> In another relationship, [my girlfriend] asked “Abhinav, hum ghar kab lenge?” [Abhinav, when will we buy a home?] That day itself I knew – she wasn’t the one! No wonder that relationship didn’t last long.(I am quite sure you’re reading this!)
Nothing classier than getting on an internet soapbox to tell your exes they were wrong.
> one such highly respected family member told me to look for a career in animation, back in 2007-08. Recently, I met him at another family gathering a few months back and he said “tum animation me kuch kyu nahi try karte?” [Why don't you try something in animation?] I was like…dude? You are still the same! Your thoughts are still stuck where they were 4-5 years back!
The author has, as of that moment, been involved in two failed startups and is working on the third. The other guy, doubting the author's ability to win the startup lottery, helpfully suggests a career in a rapidly-growing industry.
Author's response: Make fun of him for suggesting the same industry twice. Wat.
Agreed, I'm disappointed this made the front page. It's more or less a rant on people with different ideas than the author.
> graduated from some (worthless) A league institution in India and landed a fat paying job. And believe me these are absolutely good for nothing folks. If you are a startup guy, you already know that, don’t you ;)
I stopped reading after that, it reads like a YouTube comment.
Why do Indian devs feel compelled to blame their parents, families, wives, society for everything?
Come on guys, this is 2013 and not 2005. There are tons of product startups in Delhi/Bangalore/Pune/Chennai. If you don't find one that works for you, start one on your own.
Sure India isn't the US or Israel. But neither is it the India of 10 years back. Carpe diem!
Yes, it is 2013, but most of the population is still stuck in 1980s mindset, they use whatsapp to chat but never really cared about "what the heck is android"? People still believe in child marriages (http://world.time.com/2013/10/14/india-snubs-u-n-on-child-br...), families/society still think it is prestigious for them and their kids to work at Big IT/Non-IT/Govt Firms irrespective of their (kids) interest, rather than starting their own or working with startups. I think that's what author is actually trying to point out, that it is hard nut to crack.
I won't defend the quality of the article itself and rants are never a good thing, but Westerners are never really going to understand how crippling societal norms in the Indo-Pak region are.
Maturity has differing definitions in the East compared to the West and personally I think it's a little unfair to make comparisons. What's considered mature in the west can often be considered immature in the east. The youth that belong to ethnic minorities in the west often under go major identity crises, and takes them a very long time to come to terms with it.
Yes, we're in 2013 and there are great start-ups in India, but I'll be the first to tell you these are still huge exceptions to the rule. Things are starting to change, definitely and things are starting to move, but it's still going to take time.
You cannot begin to imagine the pressure young easterners face from their parents and their families to live to the ideals of their parents and extended families. I live in the UK, I could give you over 20 examples of my own life that held me back - Now i've learned to ignore those pressures and am taking corrective action, but believe me it's not easy.
I could give you over a 100 examples of others. Even when living within the West, ethnic minorities have huge pressures from the sub-culture.
It's never good to blame anything or anyone - that I agree with, but to suggest that it's easy to overcome the cultural obstacles would be an unfair statement.
I'm sorry but I don't agree. Cultural notions and societal pressures exist in all cultures, and India is no different.
Yet in a world that is being "eaten by software", if young, educated and ambitious software developers are bemoaning centuries-old practices for their inability to take risks, the blame lies closer than they think.
If they can't handle the heat, they shouldn't be in the kitchen. Get a safe, salaried job and shut up. Else cope with it. Society isn't going to change overnight, so stop moaning about it.
I'm sorry if I sound harsh but I'm been seeing more than a few of these whiny posts on HN lately.
IMO author isn't blaming anyone here. He has failed in 2 startups and riding the 3rd one, so he pretty much seems to be trying than just complaining. He is sharing his opinion about society with a catchy title (which isn't the only take away) and should be valued.
> Flat, marriage and family – 3 reasons why young Indians don’t turn entrepreneurs!
Um, the whole point of the post is to blame those three reasons - all external, societal or environmental - for personal decisions that educated and young programmers don't make.
But societal pressures and economic pressures are at least 1 if not 2 orders of magnitude higher in Indian and Arabic cultures than there is for white kids in the west.
The blame does indeed lie closer than we think. That's exactly my point. The problem is that those that are within that region are not recognising this fact until much later in their lives compared to their Western Counterparts. Only when you live in it, breathe it and feel it can you really recognise it's impact. It takes a long time to realise that this is where the problem lies. Not least because no one, and I mean NO ONE is talking about it. They're not talking about it, because they don't KNOW about it.
I don't disagree for a second that the only person responsible for their success or lack thereof is that person themselves, but to get to that realisation takes those in the eastern culture much longer. The weight of the emotional baggage is huge.
No Eric Ries, Tim Ferriss or any other 'Start-up Celebrity' is even mentioning it, because it's not even on their radar. If there had been a movement such as the Lean Start-Up movement that had addressed this problem, then those in the East would have recognised this issue much sooner and done something about it. We've had to do this all on our own.
If you haven't experienced it for yourself personally, then taking a stance such as the above is presumptious - and it's not your statement of the facts that perturbs me, it's your lack of empathy.
Maturity is peculiar because it has only the definition that you make yourself.
If you're mature, you're able to define maturity and your life goals yourself independently from "the pressure young easterners face from their parents and their families to live to the ideals of their parents and extended families". If you can't - then it's simple, you're not mature yet.
That's called being True to yourself. Maturity has a very different definition in the East. A youngster who acted as if he was "true to himself" would be considered dis-obedient and maybe even a rebel.
Would you say Prince William lacks maturity because he has to uphold royal values even though at times he may feel it gets a bit too much? Does that make him immature?
Actually, Prince William does not have to uphold royal values - he can (and probably does) choose to do so.
He could also choose not to uphold royal values and choose to have a completely different life (as for example, Edward VIII) - and it is entirely his choice to make.
Being a disobedient rebel is an option - and often harder, as family support is very useful and wanted; However, it is orthogonal to maturity.
I'd define maturity as the ability to know if you'd be happier while fitting in your social ties or 'rebelling', and doing so. I'd define immaturity as rashly accepting any of those options without understanding what you are - blindly obeying elders against your own morals would be immature; and regretted rebellion out of spite is clearly also immature.
>"give me codes" mentality which is quite visible on dev forums.
Related: I found this comment[1] on the blog post highly amusing:
> Dude!! If only there was some way I could pass this on to my parents and aunts! I’ll send you their email addresses, can you please email them the link to this page?
I long for the days, long past gone, when people waited to be successful in their endeavors before stepping up onto a soap box to tell us why everyone is wrong for not embracing the same lifestyle as them.
saying that marriage and kids discourages entrepreneurship, is not entirely correct. think it depends on the person, yes your risk profile changes once you are married, and some would be discouraged. not all will be, I quit my job for a startup with a 1 year old daughter. Granted I had saved up to last me 6 months though its not enough.
The challenge however is when your wife has a different risk profile, 3 months in of living on the bare minimum, eating noodles/beans everyday she may convince you to get a real job. The challenges faced my married entrepreneurs are different, you have to manage the expectations and sell them on the dream. If your partner is not sold, it can cause probs in the marriage.
Also it can be a serious motivator, you will do anything hustle your way to makr sure you can at least eat and pay the rent.
Certainly if you're going to enter into this sort of venture when you're married with a young family, it's a decision you need to make as a family rather than make yourself and try to impose on them.
Other than the capacity for risk and relative poverty elements, two other things I'd throw out there as factors are:
1) Exhaustion: I've two young children and the first few years of their lives I was exhausted most of the time and I know that I wasn't at my best professionally (lack of sleep makes you stupid and forgetful). It really isn't the best state to be risking everything on your own abilities.
2) Balancing work and life: If you're going to have kids you probably want (that's genuinely want rather than feel obliged) to spend time with them. It's different to a lot of other things you might want to do with your time in that there are things you can't say "I'll do later in life". They grow up incredibly quickly in those early years and it's not something you get a second shot at experiencing - you can't go back and see your infant child five years down the line when your business is settled.
And that's before the practicalities of child care and everything else that goes with it...
To be fair, I don't think the author expected the rant to be critically analyzed at HN. He probably just wanted to vent, share some anecdotes and move on - won't be happening now.
Either way, what he said is not completely untrue. Obviously India has a very family oriented culture. A lot of educated young people are first generation educated, and thereby there are always expectations. Expectations, that are not just limited to settling down but that also lean towards making people risk averse. Times are changing, but the hangover of the days when people used to join one company right after college (preferably a government job) and retire after 40 years are still here.
Couple that with the fact that our higher education system is pretty much a mess, with very little directly applicable skills taught. And you can see why such questions are part & parcel of life if you have been out of college for 3-4 years.
Not all bad though, the big cities are seeing an enormous number of startup events. I cover startups and have seen very passionate student startups coming out of even Tier2/3 colleges and there are plenty of incubators/accelerators around.
If you are a young aspiring entrepreneur, you will have far more complex things to worry about than an occasional relative asking, "When are you getting married"
Rant or now, too direct or not this post is spot on. I am not Indian but can relate to what he is writing about. Young Africans are facing the same problem. Its not until recently I decided to take my own path not that which was dictated by family and society. Kudos bra for having the courage to write THIS as it is.
32 comments
[ 2.1 ms ] story [ 72.1 ms ] threadI for one, will never judge anyone who chooses happiness and life balance over career success.
It's the people giving up all those things for a tiny chance at career success that are the insane ones. Those 3 things are non-negotiable to me, and frankly, don't prevent career success.
I would want to add that our education system does not support/encourage a start-up/business/creative mindset.
Even today, most of the bachelors degree courses are oriented towards teaching for and endorsing high grades (just to qualify for jobs and PG entrance exams) rather than developing critical thinking.
"Of course, she’s happily married and I, having failed 2 startups in the past, am still building another startup! (I hope this post reaches you, lady!)"
erm, what?
The difference may just be that Indian's marry younger so it kicks in earlier.
> These relatives are probably the ones whose kids would have done “nothing” in their lives
The point could have been made without insulting their kids.
> One of my ex girlfriend had started talking about marriage barely when we had graduated ... Of course, she’s happily married and I, having failed 2 startups in the past, am still building another startup! (I hope this post reaches you, lady!)
> In another relationship, [my girlfriend] asked “Abhinav, hum ghar kab lenge?” [Abhinav, when will we buy a home?] That day itself I knew – she wasn’t the one! No wonder that relationship didn’t last long.(I am quite sure you’re reading this!)
Nothing classier than getting on an internet soapbox to tell your exes they were wrong.
> one such highly respected family member told me to look for a career in animation, back in 2007-08. Recently, I met him at another family gathering a few months back and he said “tum animation me kuch kyu nahi try karte?” [Why don't you try something in animation?] I was like…dude? You are still the same! Your thoughts are still stuck where they were 4-5 years back!
The author has, as of that moment, been involved in two failed startups and is working on the third. The other guy, doubting the author's ability to win the startup lottery, helpfully suggests a career in a rapidly-growing industry.
Author's response: Make fun of him for suggesting the same industry twice. Wat.
> graduated from some (worthless) A league institution in India and landed a fat paying job. And believe me these are absolutely good for nothing folks. If you are a startup guy, you already know that, don’t you ;)
I stopped reading after that, it reads like a YouTube comment.
Come on guys, this is 2013 and not 2005. There are tons of product startups in Delhi/Bangalore/Pune/Chennai. If you don't find one that works for you, start one on your own.
Sure India isn't the US or Israel. But neither is it the India of 10 years back. Carpe diem!
Maturity has differing definitions in the East compared to the West and personally I think it's a little unfair to make comparisons. What's considered mature in the west can often be considered immature in the east. The youth that belong to ethnic minorities in the west often under go major identity crises, and takes them a very long time to come to terms with it.
Yes, we're in 2013 and there are great start-ups in India, but I'll be the first to tell you these are still huge exceptions to the rule. Things are starting to change, definitely and things are starting to move, but it's still going to take time.
You cannot begin to imagine the pressure young easterners face from their parents and their families to live to the ideals of their parents and extended families. I live in the UK, I could give you over 20 examples of my own life that held me back - Now i've learned to ignore those pressures and am taking corrective action, but believe me it's not easy.
I could give you over a 100 examples of others. Even when living within the West, ethnic minorities have huge pressures from the sub-culture.
It's never good to blame anything or anyone - that I agree with, but to suggest that it's easy to overcome the cultural obstacles would be an unfair statement.
Yet in a world that is being "eaten by software", if young, educated and ambitious software developers are bemoaning centuries-old practices for their inability to take risks, the blame lies closer than they think.
If they can't handle the heat, they shouldn't be in the kitchen. Get a safe, salaried job and shut up. Else cope with it. Society isn't going to change overnight, so stop moaning about it.
I'm sorry if I sound harsh but I'm been seeing more than a few of these whiny posts on HN lately.
Um, the whole point of the post is to blame those three reasons - all external, societal or environmental - for personal decisions that educated and young programmers don't make.
I don't disagree for a second that the only person responsible for their success or lack thereof is that person themselves, but to get to that realisation takes those in the eastern culture much longer. The weight of the emotional baggage is huge.
No Eric Ries, Tim Ferriss or any other 'Start-up Celebrity' is even mentioning it, because it's not even on their radar. If there had been a movement such as the Lean Start-Up movement that had addressed this problem, then those in the East would have recognised this issue much sooner and done something about it. We've had to do this all on our own.
If you haven't experienced it for yourself personally, then taking a stance such as the above is presumptious - and it's not your statement of the facts that perturbs me, it's your lack of empathy.
Edit: Spelling/Grammar
If you're mature, you're able to define maturity and your life goals yourself independently from "the pressure young easterners face from their parents and their families to live to the ideals of their parents and extended families". If you can't - then it's simple, you're not mature yet.
Would you say Prince William lacks maturity because he has to uphold royal values even though at times he may feel it gets a bit too much? Does that make him immature?
He could also choose not to uphold royal values and choose to have a completely different life (as for example, Edward VIII) - and it is entirely his choice to make.
Being a disobedient rebel is an option - and often harder, as family support is very useful and wanted; However, it is orthogonal to maturity.
I'd define maturity as the ability to know if you'd be happier while fitting in your social ties or 'rebelling', and doing so. I'd define immaturity as rashly accepting any of those options without understanding what you are - blindly obeying elders against your own morals would be immature; and regretted rebellion out of spite is clearly also immature.
Related: I found this comment[1] on the blog post highly amusing:
> Dude!! If only there was some way I could pass this on to my parents and aunts! I’ll send you their email addresses, can you please email them the link to this page?
[1]: http://abhinavsahai.com/flat-marriage-and-family-3-reasons-w...
The challenge however is when your wife has a different risk profile, 3 months in of living on the bare minimum, eating noodles/beans everyday she may convince you to get a real job. The challenges faced my married entrepreneurs are different, you have to manage the expectations and sell them on the dream. If your partner is not sold, it can cause probs in the marriage.
Also it can be a serious motivator, you will do anything hustle your way to makr sure you can at least eat and pay the rent.
Other than the capacity for risk and relative poverty elements, two other things I'd throw out there as factors are:
1) Exhaustion: I've two young children and the first few years of their lives I was exhausted most of the time and I know that I wasn't at my best professionally (lack of sleep makes you stupid and forgetful). It really isn't the best state to be risking everything on your own abilities.
2) Balancing work and life: If you're going to have kids you probably want (that's genuinely want rather than feel obliged) to spend time with them. It's different to a lot of other things you might want to do with your time in that there are things you can't say "I'll do later in life". They grow up incredibly quickly in those early years and it's not something you get a second shot at experiencing - you can't go back and see your infant child five years down the line when your business is settled.
And that's before the practicalities of child care and everything else that goes with it...
Flat, marriage and family. That's 2 reasons.
Some style guides promote use of it, some do not.
Either way, what he said is not completely untrue. Obviously India has a very family oriented culture. A lot of educated young people are first generation educated, and thereby there are always expectations. Expectations, that are not just limited to settling down but that also lean towards making people risk averse. Times are changing, but the hangover of the days when people used to join one company right after college (preferably a government job) and retire after 40 years are still here.
Couple that with the fact that our higher education system is pretty much a mess, with very little directly applicable skills taught. And you can see why such questions are part & parcel of life if you have been out of college for 3-4 years.
Not all bad though, the big cities are seeing an enormous number of startup events. I cover startups and have seen very passionate student startups coming out of even Tier2/3 colleges and there are plenty of incubators/accelerators around.
If you are a young aspiring entrepreneur, you will have far more complex things to worry about than an occasional relative asking, "When are you getting married"