I'm now working for a San Jose startup from North Carolina ... and not from RTP, but from a much less tech-focused area. My wife's family lives here and that's great for our daughter. Our house here costs 20% what an equivalent house would have in San Mateo, my bay area home from 1995 to 2013.
This place has a nice downtown, a pretty diverse population (a lot of medical research and university action). The food's pretty good and somewhat varied (no Shalimar Pakistani unfortunately, I miss my Saag Gosht).
I miss the bay area but can now get back at least every two months or so to see old friends. If you can swing it, give it a try.
Went to Wake Forest from 2001-2005 and stuck around until my wife graduated from Salem College. I can't say I share your enthusiasm (I live in Denver now and couldn't be happier), but I am glad that you enjoy the place! Please feel free to hit me up with any ?'s you may have - I spent close to 8 years there in various phases of life.
As someone who escaped a tech job in Winston-Salem in the 90's, and now lives in Marin county, I'm curious about how things have improved. What VCs are making life better for startups? Or is it just a cheaper spot with decent internet?
Wake Forest class of 2005 here, now working in the Valley. I can't help but be jealous of my college friends when I go back home and see their humane cost of living. Everybody I know in NC owns a home that would cost seven figures in Mountain View, CA. Everybody I know in California rents and lives dorm-style with roommates.
Making a Silicon Valley salary remotely in Winston-Salem would let you live like a king.
Besides, the Carolina skies are just breathtaking, and not available at any price. I recently visited Winston with my California native girlfriend, and we were both charmed by the beauty and open space of Carolina.
I also think North Carolina is beautiful. A drive through the countryside on a two-lane road is amazing. The epitome of evil here is to not mow your lawn or keep up your landscaping or to not apply that coat of paint, so everyone's place looks great. And the city of Winston Salem itself has improved in the last fifteen years tremendously from what I've heard. Many old-timers shun downtown for what it used to be, but 4th Street is busy every single night of the week. And for good work/hangout places, Camino Bakery is awesome, and Krankies Coffee beats any coffee shop in SF Bay Area hands down for atmosphere -- and coffee. SF would go nuts if the place were transplanted into The Mission.
But on my first visit to the San Jose area in six months I was struck by how beautiful the place I left really is, too. In NC the trees are a bit suffocating. I like seeing the hills around the bay. And the NC trees are all the exact same shade of green during the summer. The hike I took at Purissima along Skyline Blvd was beautiful. And even the crowded housing everywhere has its charm.
We made our choice and moved on to NC, but I'm real glad to be working for a bay area company again.
When you head to Raleigh, be sure to stop by Royal India on Capital Blvd. It's Indian, not Pakistani, but they excellent dishes including a saag gosht.
I think Raleigh is the best bang for the buck for tech, food, drink, and residence anywhere in the U.S.
Downtown Raleigh has art festivals, music festivals (Hopscotch, Wide Open Bluegrass), Red Hat amphitheater, and Duke Energy Center for the Performing Arts (including Meymandi Concert Hall, Fletcher Opera Theater, Kennedy Theater, Memorial Auditorium), etc. There are a lot of great restaurants within walking distance of some nice/fun bars. You don't even have to walk or ride; they have a Trolley you can ride for free (or rent!), a Trolley Pub (bike bar), rickshaws, etc. There are clubs (various kinds and each age groups), but that's not as much my scene anymore. They are to a saturation point with microbrewing companies in the area, they have so many: http://www.ncbeer.org/brewery-map/ And that's not all of Raleigh, e.g. North Hills has been having great free outdoor concerts with a few great bars (and a great grocery store if you want to be cheap) right next to it, which has been our fav recently. It is basically everything you love about a "small town" (great people, community, lower cost of living) in a well-educated and resourced area (NCSU, UNC-CH, Duke Univ. and too many tech companies to mention) with plenty of great places to eat and things to do.
But, Durham has DPAC, lots of great restaurants, a good startup scene, including areas devoted to startups like the Underground in the American Tobacco District next to DPAC and the Durham Bulls ballpark (where they do concerts, too.), etc.
And for the best hole-in-the-wall places to eat, you just have to ask around enough, like anywhere else. It might be a hot pot Chinese place in some random Morrisville strip mall, etc.
Used to live there. Now live in SF. Could never live in Raleigh again and I only go to visit family. It's entirely too car focused and the tech community is trivial in size compared to SF. The only active meetup group I came across while visiting recently with solid engineers was the Ruby Brigade. However with Relevance in Durham, I imagine there is a solid Clojure community in the area as well.
If you don't mind cars, the quality of live if pretty great, however it kills me that it is just far enough from the mountains and the beaches for either to be convenient. Freshwater lakes aren't too far, but too much of those nearby are in the watershed supplying water to the area so recreational usage is highly restricted.
It just depends what you're looking for and what you mean when you say "tech commnunity". Most of the big guys have either a major presence or a remote office here, and even more have work-from-homers. Even with Ericsson gone, IBM dwindling and Nortel out of business (but Ciena & Genband are doing great and picked up quite a bit of Nortel real estate in RTP), they've been replaced by Cisco, eXtreme Networks, NetApp, EMC, RedHat, SAS, etc. Heroku, Google, Salesforce, Zend, and a whole bunch more have smaller presences and you regularly run into people working either for startups or smaller tech companies as remote staff. Yes, it's indisputable that the culture is 180 degrees from SV, but if you're past the post-uni honeymoon period and are raising a family, I think most would be hard pressed to quantify SV as preferable to RTP using most measures. Public schools are far better (and there are very good private schools for the so-inclined), everyone is more relaxed, we have four seasons, real estate is affordable (my very nice 4300sqft house in a neighborhood of similar homes was under $500k), and the populace is very well educated (Chapel Hill supposedly has the highest PhD population per capita in the country). It's just that the people living here generally are here because their priorities are different than technology professionals in LA/SF/SV/NY.
And besides all the actual tech companies, there are great tech opportunities in banking if you go to Charlotte, in biotech (all the big pharmas and a lot of the smaller/startups are in and around RTP), and pure science. Just like the Bay Area has Stanford & Berkeley, we have Duke, UNC, and NCSU -- similarly high quality educations, just with a different focus.
In any case, I'm not trying to convince anyone you're wrong, but there are multiple angles to every story and RTP is definitely a good option for a lot of people. Two of my best friends in my neighborhood are relos from California (one from the LA area and one who worked for Heroku in SF), actually.
The whole Silicon Valley advantage is fading. I went there back in 1997 when it was very hard to find technical jobs in my country (Canada) because a lot of those kinds of jobs gravitated to head office cities for large companies, and many Canadian companies were subsidiaries of large American companies. In Silicon Valley, I learned that most startups fail or are acquired within in a year or so. It's like a lottery. Then I headed to London England, found a job fairly easily and lived there for 10 years or so. Not long ago I returned to Canada, Vancouver this time, and found it loaded with startups and other tech businesses that were more established. Another Canadian city that I am familiar with is Waterloo Ontario and it is in a similar condition. I'm told that Toronto is also overflowing with opportunities both startup and more established stuff. If you are going to play the startup lottery, why not do it among folks you know.
And in case you are wondering what this has to do with Miami, I agree with the OP, just stay home and build your business (startup or otherwise) right there. You still have a ticket in the startup lottery if that is the way you want to go, but just like in SV itself, most of those startups don't last very long.
However, unlike SV, if you stay where you are then you have a better chance of building a normal business that grows incrementally by serving profitable customers, reinvesting profits, and taking a longer term view.
Readers of HN should be very aware that there are startups all over the place, and not just in American cities but in most countries of the world. Silicon Valley just isn't as special as it once was because computers and tech and Internet connectivity is now virtually everywhere that there are cities.
I always find it interesting how a company that takes off and IPOs outside SV seems to gain almost no attention even when they have profits that would dwarf most of the hot startups. I work down the street from a startup that IPO'd a couple years ago for hundreds of millions, does double digits of daily trading on the NASDAQ, and seemingly nobody has heard of. Instagram selling for a billion is cool and all, but there are many companies like this who fly 100% under the radar. If I had to guess, it is probably a focus on B2C vs B2B. (Don't have the source, but I think I read it in Inc. this month) 80% of the startups filing for IPO this year are B2B. Food for thought.
Is it really under the radar though? If you're aiming for TechCrunch front page then being in SF is probably a much better bet, but beyond that hype bubble you can still do very well. There are certainly talented people all over the country and of course you're going to save money on rent, salaries, and basically everything else if you go outside of San Francisco.
Not having ever founded a company I could be extremely wrong here but my take is that SF could be detrimental to certain startups.. If you have $x saved up to support you while you start a company it's going to last you much longer in basically any other city in the country other than perhaps Manhattan. At that point you basically have to decide which is going to be more of a factor in your success, extra time with which to build your product or physical proximity to an entrepreneurial community? Of course there's no one right answer, but I suspect that for many web-based startups the extra time and savings would be more important than the surrounding environment.
I think it's more what HN specifically pays attention to, than what gets attention in a global sense. My read is that the community here is focused on web-oriented, low-capital, low-time-to-MVP markets (Y Combinator's preferences sort of set the tone, but lots of bootstrappers have similar aims). That tends to make higher-capital, higher-time-to-market, high-R&D or high-sales-touch, slower-growth businesses a bit off the radar here.
I think partly it's that people are inspired by the category of businesses that seem like: given $30k and two years in a garage, I could do that! This requires a particular kind of company, and lots of success stories just don't seem like the kind of thing you could do in a garage, so they aren't part of this particular corner of the Valley mythos. For example, one of the top tech IPOs of 2013 is CDW, a Chicago-based B2B firm that's been slowly growing since 1984 by building partnerships and logistics infrastructure, and is now IPO'ing 29 years later. Totally different kind of company.
I think the location actually matters a bit less. People probably do pay more attention to SF-based companies just because that's where a lot of the startup-sector media is, but companies from elsewhere that fit the model I described also get press, like 37signals (Chicago) or SoundCloud (Berlin). A number of the more prominent HN posters with startups are also from outside the Valley, like tptacek (Chicago) and cperciva (Vancouver).
In light of the current (and ongoing) discussion on editorializing titles on HN:
The article title “Why I moved to Miami & you should too” is very different from the HN submission “Before moving your startup to NYC or SFO”.
I don’t always agree with HN moderators’ title changes, but in this case, I can see why the title would be reversed (it hasn’t been yet, as of me writing this.)
It's pretty common to use the main airport name as a synecdoche referring to the city. I regularly see CPH used instead of Copenhagen, OSL instead of Oslo, BCN for Barcelona, etc. Doesn't work for all cities, of course.
It's a shibboleth in social media to show that you travel by air often. It's even sillier when Canadians do it because what the everloving crap does YYZ or YUL tell you if you don't already know what they mean.
I can't say for sure, but I think CPH as airport code comes from the common abbreviation for the city, rather than the other way around. KBH (København) is also used in Danish fairly commonly, and isn't any airport's code. It's possible that KBH is a backformation from CPH, though, come to think of it. Might try to dig into that if I have some spare time.
I've looked at the projections, and Manhattan's not nearly as screwed as Miami. Our foundation is mostly rock, I think, and a lot of this island has a relatively high elevation (as anyone who has walked up the giant hill to CCNY would happily tell you). Of course, the financial district will probably be toast, but things will just get pushed further into the bronx/inwood areas as is already happening now due to rent prices. I don't think anyone will care if we have to abandon Staten Island...
Miami, on the other hand, is mostly flat and is sitting on a porous foundation, in addition to being right next to the everglades. There was a really interesting article recently on it:
Ironically - that picture from the RS article is right in front of the 1Sale.com office. I feel compelled to share that it does not look like that often (maybe 1-2 days a year during hurricane season)!
Yeah, but I'll take the weather in Redwood City (mid peninsula) over the oppressive heat and humidity (and cockroaches and mosquitos) of Florida any day. For reference: I've lived both places.
My second invention idea when I was a lad was for a jacket that was a self contained climate control device. This was after my I created sketches for my first invention, a levitating car commute system. My friend took both to his father, who at the time was an executive at a Korean auto manufacturer. Still waiting to see those 2 materialize.
There are so many great places to live outside of SF and NYC. For the price of my old Bay Area rental, I rented the upper half of a gorgeous house in the Old Town of Park City, Utah. I was a 35 minute commute from Salt Lake (half of my SFBA commute) and my front doorstep was two short blocks from the ski lift. I could walk or ride my bike to everything that I needed. Sundance screenings were half a block away. In the summer, I could come home after work and still get a two hour mountain bike ride in, with the trails one block away. In the winter, I could ski all weekend or even get in some night runs after work at PCMR. Northern Utah has a thriving tech/startup community so there's plenty of local support.
Sadly, I left Utah to follow my wife's (military) career to Tacoma, WA. When she retires in 9 years, you can bet that we'll head back.
These numbers are rarely reflective of actual encounters because many people who are nominally included in the LDS figure choose not to practice or observe.
Still, 35% nominally LDS is very low for Utah. Summit County is the one place in Utah that leans blue in most elections, and is a common settling place for wealthy persons who like skiing, hence the diminishing LDS population.
Now you can build a startup community almost anywhere leveraging the benefits of the particular area.
We're doing it in Myrtle Beach, SC: WhyNotTheBeach.com based off the low cost of living, high quality of life, big city amenities, fiber to the home, etc.
I'm not sure if others have experienced this, but my brain doesn't function very well in tropical heat and humidity. It just seems to slow down, and mental games don't seem as interesting. It may be that I've been conditioned by many episodes of tropical vacations growing up, but whatever the reason, I can't (and indeed, don't really want to) code below about 30 degrees latitude.
I'm sure most start ups in Miami have A/C, so I'm not sure what your concern is. Most apartments too.
Anyway, I live in an area that reaches 43c in the summer and -6c in the winter. When I first moved here it definitely threw me off, but I got acclimated to it quickly.
As someone who grew up in Milwaukee and moved to Charleston, I agree 100%. One of my largest clients is in Milwaukee now and I can say definitively that I have lost all tolerance for that bitter cold. And to all you Canadians living north of the wall... I don't know how you do it.
Well, not quite. In the summer Vancouver/Victoria are both way nicer than SF. I personally don't think there is a nicer place to be in August. In the winter, they're both colder.
Neither compare to the peninsula though. It's still mid-20s in Palo Alto during the day right now whereas its mid-teens in Vancouver.
I actually really prefer the Winter. I personally think when you start feeling like a Canadian is when you enjoy the winter weather.
For whatever reason the sun in Canada really seems to burn(at least in Toronto area) and it can get really humid in the summers. But in the winter you can always just bundle up and feel comfortable.
I'm a canadian, I really appreciate the weather down in the bay area after growing up in seattle weather for my childhood and college years. Don't miss the rain and the cold, or the 'lack of seasons' some friends seem to complain about.
Yes, but the effect is not pronounced. I seem to do well in relatively cool, dry environments. The humidity, I think, is what affects me the most. I live in LA, which isn't exactly cold, but the humidity is always low, which makes it comfortable. But when it gets hot, my brain does get sluggish. It's true that AC helps, a lot. :)
Having once lived in Florida, there is a greater culture of AC in the far south than in the far north. I have been more uncomfortable during the summer in Connecticut than I ever was in Florida.
That said, I think there is a mindset to enjoying the heat as well. You should probably not expect to go hiking through the woods in the summer in Florida. It's just not pleasant to be in such places in such humidity with such insects. If you live in Florida, your weekends should be spent at the beach (and please do not call it the shore, it's like calling it soda vs. pop). Sand will get into everywhere and everything, so learning how to deal with sand is a major part of enjoying Florida.
I'm the opposite. My brain works well as soon as I'm no longer shivering. Sweat doesn't phase me too much. It's great for me out here in Phnom Penh, would be too hot/humid for most folks in the long run, but suits me perfectly. Oh yeah, no AC or fan going in my home office here either!
Back north, outside of 2 months of summer you keep having to adjust heating or put on/take off layers of clothing as the time of day progresses, and the slightest shiver gives me a "what is this, I shouldn't have to live this way, I give up, brain shut-down initiated" wave of misery :D hence, tropics suit me best and I do manage to get stuff done here. .
I don't mind sweating at all, as long as I'm wearing swim trunks and nothing else. Sweating at the office, wearing underwear, pants, and a t-shirt - that rises to the top of my conscious mind, poking me repeatedly.
To show you my agreement with this, I usually go to the beach in end of Sep/early October in the mid-Atlantic. I don't get lots of swimming or sun bathing in, but there's very few people and the early Autumn storms makes the Ocean magnificent (plus all the stores and tourist places want to move inventory out for the off season so lots of cheap activities and things to buy).
Are we seeing more quality of life decisions being a bigger and bigger factor in startups? I've met with at least 3 nyc startups that are moving to Miami in the last few weeks because their runway is twice as long here. Although I know they aren't going to stay here permanently, I do like the idea that new blood is coming into the area. New blood equals new ideas which in turn leads to even more new startups.
A lot of weird stuff goes down in florida. The pan handle is deep south. Its basically an odd mix. (My college roomate lived in Tampa after graduating umass)
Collecting the weird stories has become an internet meme.
That being said the everglades national park is one of the most beautiful places I've been. (Just don't go during mosquito season)....
edit: I can't believe I was the second reference to fark on this thread....
>Disgruntled ex-boyfriend left thousands of voicemails on his ex-girlfriend's phone, adds sound effects like gunshots in the background for that added criminal charge[1]
Former Floridian who've lived all over the country and couldn't agree with you more. It's not just it's in the South. Texans are far better and nicer than the average Floridian. There's something very, very wrong with that state. People there are so cynical and always assume the worst about everything. More often than not though, they are right.
As a native S. Floridian I just want to point out that most Floridians are from the NE. I'm an immigrant myself but in school half the population were Cuba and Haiti. Some were from Florida and the rest were from Brooklyn, Mass., upstate NY, and NJ. The kids from the NE, collectively, hated Florida, hated their parents, and wanted to move back.
Chances are you are meeting the adult version of the cynical kids I grew up with. Some of them tried to move back to NYC, Boston, NJ and found the neighbourhood had changed and no one remembered them or cared.
I spent a few years in Texas -- another zero income tax state, before moving back to the Midwest.
Something to consider is whether or not you've got kids. Right now my family lives in an affordable neighborhood with a tolerant culture and excellent public schools that my two kids attend. In Texas, it seemed more like getting a good secular education for your kids was something that you had to pay a lot for, one way or the other -- either living in a super affluent neighborhood or finding private schools. Financially, I think that I may actually come out ahead living in one of the so-called "education states."
Granted, my cultural biases show themselves in this post.
thus the effing quoties. I live here I know theyre both in king county. But thanks for being both pedantic and stupid. it keeps smart people in SV and away from trying to get my job.
Basically, Bellevue and Kirkland (as well as Kenmore, Bothell, Renton, etc...) are just like any other suburb outside of the Bay Area. As for the rest of the state, most of my family lives in the Spokane area and were originally from Walla Walla...
> In Texas, it seemed more like getting a good secular education for your kids was something that you had to pay a lot for, one way or the other -- either living in a super affluent neighborhood or finding private schools.
I have to disagree with this. I graduated from a regular public school in Texas and there was nothing sectarian about the education and it was far better than the public high school I attended in the SF Bay Area (they could actually afford things like copy paper, something my CA high school stopped buying due to budget cuts. They also dropped all advanced courses, this in a neighborhood with houses reaching $1 million).
I lived in an affluent neighborhood in Texas, yes, but the bar to afford such a neighborhood isn't very high here. ~$250k homes in that area for some of the top-ranked high schools in the nation.
I grew up in a very affluent school district in Texas, and I still had to deal with being harassed for being an atheist and having my biology teacher preface her lessons on evolution with "Now, this is not what I personally believe, but...".
That said, even with those little unpleasantnesses, I did get an excellent education.
I did think about it. And not eating is a style of cuisine. The flavors of your body slowly eating itself are euphoric to some. There are plenty of annoying atheists who are trying to convince people they are right. It's the same as the Mormons showing up on your front step.
If rushed judgements of religious groups irritate you, a good first step might be not to engage in exactly the same behaviour. "Let he who is without sin..."
What does that have to do with anything? He's talking about having to deal with crazy creationists (also known as religious extremists). That doesn't mean he is one himself.
I can speak for Houston at least. The suburbs (Sugar Land, Katy, etc.) all have pretty good schools, and the homes zoned to them are generally affordable to middle class families ($250-300k is probably the sweet spot).
If you live in an urban inner-city neighborhood, though, then yes, you have to pay an extraordinary amount to get a good education for your kids through private school. On the plus side, Houston has some incredibly strong private high schools (e.g., St. John's School) if you can afford the $20-25k/year tuition on top of the super expensive real estate and the 3% property taxes.
Yes it's hot (& most definitely humid) but bad weather is not really that common (at least for me in the last 2 years) & I think the sky & sunsets are flippin' beautiful!
I definitely sympathize with the tax burden component. Here in New York, I only end up taking home half what I'm paid which is especially frustrating for a contractor who could theoretically be working remotely.
There are plenty of great places to build your startup. I don't think SF is one of them, but I'd live on the street in SF before living in Miami (again).
As Miami as the Miami Dolphins.. are you suggesting that Miami is drastically different than it's surrounding area.. the city limits of Miami are quite large, and have many different types of neighborhoods. I love that everyone that lives in Miami thinks they are different, and never want to be grouped with 'outsiders' (folks that live in neighboring counties), but anyone that doesn't, considers all Broward, Dade, and Palm Beach the same. It's always referred to as SFL, South Florida.. All the startups, investors, etc mentioned in articles like this are not located IN Miami.. they are spread across SFL.
I made the decision a long time ago that people come first. Comparing the people of San Francisco to those of Miami, well, in this case you get what you pay for. I feel like a rock star wild man anywhere else. In San Francisco I feel like I'm surrounded by people smarter, more creative, and better at life than me. That's worth every penny.
I'll take a hovel in SF over a mansion in Miami any day.
Besides, the defense of Miami in this article stinks of all that is wrong with America - that it's filled with great places to consume. Don't get me wrong, I love my fancy hipster bars, restaurants, and shops - but those aren't what makes SF the best city for me.
The implication of this post is that people in Miami are dumber, less creative, and "worse at life" than those in San Francisco.
The population of Miami is around 410,000. When someone tries to "comparing the people of X", where X is a population of 410,000, I think the bigger insight is to be gleaned from the writer's preconceptions than their conclusions.
San Francisco is a magnet for talented, ambitious, creative, brilliant, audacious people. It's hard to argue against this, and by accepting that as true, you must also accept the clear corollary - that there are proportionally more of those extraordinary people in San Francisco and fewer in Miami. And yes, that makes huge difference.
While it may not be politically correct to say that one city is "dumber, less creative, and 'worse at life'," it seems to be politically fine to say San Francisco is filled with creative, smart, "good at life" people. Of course, those statements are logically equivalent, so it's really just politics you are arguing.
You can frame it any way you want, especially with vague terms like "talented, ambitious and creative". Art Basel is a world renowned event that surely involves tons of talent, ambition and creativity. Strange that it's in Miami and not in San Francisco.
Another true statement is that San Francisco is a magnet for homeless drug addicts. It turns out there are a lot of people in both places and you can find really good and really bad parts of each.
If only there were some way we could compare large groups of people. Maybe we could have a federal agency that does that. It sounds pretty useful; maybe we should put that in the constitution.
Snark aside, 26% of Miami has Bachelor's degrees. San Francisco county is 51%. Marin, 54%. San Mateo county, 46%.
San Francisco attracts people who want to do Big Things. It attracts people with technical and business smarts. I do not think it follows, though, that it attracts people with general life smarts or, as you put it, people who are "better at life." The sort of strike-it-rich personalities that are drawn to the San Francisco gold rush are not always the same personalities that are conducive to good old-fashioned happiness and contentment. And it's certainly going to attract a lot of people who will put work and Big Things over the raising of a family.
Taxes here in the states are overall disgusting, though you don't realize it until your salary inches upwards. When your making 40K to 55K here in the states the amount of taxes taken seems like a fair share. Though when you almost double that you wonder what's the point of making more money on paper as in your pocket you only make 60 to 65 percent of of your earnings - WTH?
The point would be making more money. Also, perhaps, being more productive, accomplishing more, having great responsibility, and contributing more to society.
Of course, the people still making your old salary surely feel terrible that your now-doubled salary is filling you with discussed. If you ask nicely, I bet they'll trade paychecks with you so you feel better.
Umm check out toomuchtodo's post above and think to yourself.... yeah I've worked hard and smart and now I'm making 120K on paper, yet in my pocket after all the taxes I only get 60K? WHAT!?!
But if you make 50K your gonna see 38K in your pocket. 12K in taxes is a fair amount as I'm all for taxes for roads and services I use.
Though taking half of what you make each year in the various taxes is insane and again for me makes me think why work harder and smarter. The majority of my rewards will be taken from me!
Regardless, you seem to be upset that we have a progressive tax system, where the rich proportionally pay more. That seems fine to me. Paying for "what you use" is a terrible standard. The whole thing has to get paid for.
My pay per consulting contract fluctuates. I am fortunate and happy to be doing better then previously.
Though what percentage is a fair share? I was fine with 25 percent tax, but damn after working hard and smart your reward is a little more money in your pocket and a lot more in Uncle Sam's pocket....
Living in Denmark, I'd say 50% or so is fair. :) Half for my individualized personal needs, and half for the provision of general goods and services that everyone can use, including me (healthcare, parks, transit system, education, social safety net, police, etc.).
I guess it's not only about the amount of taxes, but also what you get out of them. Recently I was considering moving from Germany to California, and decided it's not worth it money wise. Yes, the nominal salary is a bit better, and nominal taxes are a bit lower in the USA, but what would I get for it? Here, I get full health insurance included in my taxes, retirements contribution also. In addition, I get 4k€/year in child support, free quality education all the way through the university, subsidized education for grown ups and only 60€/month full day child care. If I were to go to USA, I guess my complete taxes would be used for harassing other countries, and I'd still have to pay a lot more for things that here I get for "free".
This is why I contemplate moving to Europe. In Illinois, I'm making ~$120K/year salary. After payroll taxes, I see ~$72K of that. Then take into account sales tax (10%) and property taxes (~$3K/year).
I'm effectively paying EU tax rates without any of the benefits (child care, universal healthcare, etc).
I don't really get the whole aversion to taxes. "Just being aware of a state that doesn't have a 0% state income tax makes me quiver". Really? I use the roads, I like public parks, I enjoy cheap public transportation, what's wrong with taxes? I'll happily contribute if it means better communal life in my city/state. As someone else mentioned further down, some EU countries pay up to 65% taxes. This guy quivers at the thought of >0%?
Can someone explain to my why its an advantage to live in a state with zero income tax? Does it really matter how the state makes its money. If it does not come from your paycheck directly they get it other ways.
For instance in Florida you pay ~2% property tax on your assessed value and in california you pay ~1% on your purchased value. If you bought property at 500k and its appreciated to 1 million in CA you pay 5k in FL you pay 20k.
Sure, but consider that the majority of people in SF/SV are priced out of the market and are instead renters -- they're getting the worst of both worlds.
The point is that as a non-homeowner, you don't pay property tax so you don't benefit from low property tax rates. Instead you're paying rent that's among the highest in the nation. And your salary, which better be large to deal with the outrageous rent, is being taxed at one one of the highest rates in the country. It's the absolute worst tax situation to be in.
That's for state tax only - federal would be another good chunk on top of that - but yeah, assuming that's all straight-up income (not investments or anything), just the state-level taxes should be about 100k at California's current rates.
You assume both states ultimately take in the same amount of money, which is false. California just takes more money from its residents. Florida isn't 'hiding it' in other taxes.
It often happens that someone outside new york talks about the amaaaazing food in their city. I used to laugh, or correct them. Nowadays I just feel pity.
Nothing compares to the food of new york city. Absolutely nothing. Don't even fucking try.
"I live within walking distance of two zagat top 10 rated restaurants." There are sixty restaurants within walking distance of my apartment and they're all better than anything in miami. Fuck, 5 of them are run by Top Chef winners. And there are 10 more that are better than those because the food network doesn't even get the top talent.
No, I've been around the block. There is a legitimate and drastic difference between everywhere else (in the U.S. and Europe, at least) and this city. The only other place in the U.S. that competes is L.A., and S.F. but only for burritos (why doesn't NYC have burritos?).
wow, you've been to the US AND THE EU... impressed. I'm impressed that only SF and LA have burritos. YOU ARE A WORLD TRAVELLER. Whee, immediate -4 karma.
But seriously nyc has some good food but it doesn't have a stranglehold on great ingredients. The west coast in fact has better access and makes better use of it because it's natural to just assume that those things exists.
Some of the best food I've had is actually in local quality resturants in detroit, stl, pittsburgh, and boston, when they are showing off their natural 300 mile radius ingredients and how to use them in season.
Noted. Though I have to say that while LA does have good food, they should get out more and compare. Not the people who make the food, they obviously get out. The people who eat the food. Well they get out, but not OUT. But all in all, good food. Well and a lot of shit overpriced food. But lots of great food in really shitting looking locations. And lots of really shitty food in really great looking locations.
I presume this is just trolling, but in case you actually think that, for New York, Michelin lists 7 three-star restaurants, 9 two-star, and 46 one-star. San Francisco's numbers are 2, 6, and 39. [1] So not as high, but given that the SF Metro area has a third the population of New York, we do ok.
(For those unfamiliar, Michelin stars are sort of like the Academy Awards of food. Even a 1-star restaurant is an extraordinary meal, and you should expect to pay $100-200 a person. 3-star places are reputedly the best of the best; a meal there runs $300-600 per person.)
Some of the ones in NYC that have 1 star appear to just be regular American style Chinese takeout type places. Not sure how pretentious they are (or can be).
You have to be careful though, because Michelin-starred restaurants aren't where most people eat, and the correlation between the sort of high-end exotics that get the stars and the overall food-scene is going to vary from place to place... It can go either way of course.
If you're a super rich socialite, then yeah, focus on the stars, but otherwise....er, well. [No diss on Michelin-starred restaurants intended! I've eaten at such places a couple of times in my life and they were very nice.]
I've eaten well in every major city of the east coast, and a few in the UK. NYC is a monoculture of food. A distinct culture of its own, but a monoculture nonetheless. You won't find good BBQ in NYC. Decent fried chicken is easier to find in some backwards farm town of Pennsylvania than it is in NYC. I still assert that the best burger in the world is in Harrisburg, PA, and I specifically look and test everywhere I go. Pizza comes in one form, as do Ramen noodles. Yes, there are some amazing French restaurants there, but there is no shortage of amazing French restaurants in the country. And they have no clue what they are doing with a crab.
It's a bit of a monoculture, but one that spans more cuisines than anywhere else. There are definitely certain aesthetics that are prized over others that are arguably worthwhile, but it's cross-cutting. You can get more diversity in, say, fried chicken, in PA, but you can't get the same diversity across cuisines, combined with the same depth and quality of execution, anywhere else.
That is not a critique, that is a statement. Pizza comes in one form, and that form is NY/Neapolitan style. The rest is some kind of bizarre cheese/tomato pie bread thing.
You have terrible taste if you can only appreciate a dish in one form. Deep Dish is different but its great. Personally I think its even better. Deep dish feels more special and like a meal, but I would only ever want to it once a month.
I like NYC pizza, at least from the major famous places. Your typical corner pizza is no better than any other corner pizza place on the east coast.
I live in Tokyo right now and I definitely eat better than I did in NYC. NYC only has Tokyo beat on prices, since both places only have mediocre Mexican food.
You have terrible taste if you can only appreciate a dish in one form. Deep Dish is different but its great. Personally I think its even better. Deep dish feels more special and like a meal, but I would only ever want to it once a month.
I like NYC pizza, at least from the major famous places. Your typical corner pizza is no better than any other corner pizza place on the east coast.
I live in Tokyo right now and I definitely eat better than I did in NYC. NYC only has Tokyo beat on prices, since both places only have mediocre Mexican food.
Where in Harrisburg? I've found many burgers in NYC to be substantially better than anything I was able to find in Harrisburg, admittedly more expensive.
Good fried chicken, I would expect can be found outside of midtown/downtown Manhattan although I haven't explicitly gone looking. Good BBQ is pretty easy to find, especially compared to most places on the East Coast, obviously it doesn't compare much to SC or KC proper.
A place calle The Jackson House near the capitol complex. It is difficult to get in there, as they are only open for lunch on weekdays. By noon, the line is out the door.
If I hadn't just been to NY recently this comment would have sounded really conceited. For everyone wondering, if you get a chance to go to NYC just do it. Even if you think you hate big cities, do it.
I'm always happy to have friends visit me here. I'm from the midwest, and most of my friends there have never been to NYC. It blows their minds, every time.
funny, it's blows my nyc friends mind to come to the midwest and eat at a real resturant. Non-argentine beef, local cheese and milk, local well yeah. Not as great as what you can get locally west coast but the beef and game are awesome in the midwest.
Ah, there are some good places in the midwest, too. But there's many more independent restaurants here, all doing different things. I don't know what a "real" restaurant is to you, but to me, the biggest city in the united states certainly has more than a few of them.
Compare this to where I grew up: the only places to eat closeby were mcdonalds, wendy's, and burger king type places. We didn't even have (and still don't have) a starbucks, and it was a ~big deal~ when chipotle and then a panera came in.
I do miss cheap gas station slushies, though. They're hard to find here in NYC.
Go into any city in the Midwest and you'll find plenty of good non chain restraints. I'm not disagreeing with the mass of restaurants in nyc. I'm saying the food tastes better closer to the source.
I'm sorry you choose to live somewhere that only had McDonald's close.
Uh, I didn't "choose" to live there, considering I was a kid. That doesn't change the fact that most of the midwest is sparsely populated and has little to no food selection. The place I lived as a kid was still a city, despite your claim that "any midwest city" has better dining than the biggest city in the nation.
We have plenty of food close to the source here in nyc, too. Try union square on a saturday, or any one of the many places that makes things from local ingredients. It's actually much more common to see that here than the midwest. Plus, there are tons of different ethnic food places that aren't even available in less diverse states.
There's also this thing called "the Atlantic ocean." Good luck getting fresh sea food where you live, if being ~close to the source~ is so important to you.
- http://www.restaurantpi.com/ is good but it's not the best. Obama loves it and pissed of chicago for it though
- Seriously though, pizza is a regional thing. I'm not going to convince you that your pizza is shit no matter how crap the ingredients and the velveta topping are. You're not going to convince a CPK fan that their pizza is shit.
- The best Chicago style pizza is actually in STL. That's a challenge and a threat.
As an immigrant I'm struggling to find a way to parse that sentence that isn't at least slightly derogatory.
Isn't pizza an "immigrant" food? Or General Tso's chicken? California rolls? In the context of being in the USA, wouldn't French food be "immigrant food"?
I'm not trying to be purposely obtuse - but like the word "ethnic food" I can't see any reasonable definition that doesn't betray an unfamiliarity with what's being discussed.
I have a feeling that "immigrant food" falls into the same category as "I like ethnic food" - it's a concept that doesn't even parse if you've got even a basic familiarity with a wide range of cuisines.
So my NYC experience is Buddakan, Hillstone, LAVO, DINER in Williamsburg, Foodswings in Williamsburg & Lombardi's. They're all pretty great, but I can name very very competitive restaurants for each of them in Miami (Scarpetta, J Alexander, Prime Italia, Gigi in Wynwood & choices in Brickell).
I'm not saying the food is better than NYC, you guys win on sheer volume, I'm just saying it's damn good & really easy to find (unlike the suburbs I grew up in)!
I lived in NYC for a year, working right next to Hell's Kitchen. While the food is great, it's certainly not "incomparable". Paris has better restaurants. Tokyo has better restaurants (cheaper too in that case). Even San Francisco has comparable food standards.
You end up sounding just like so many New-Yorkers --annoying and conceited. But no, living there doesn't make you special. It's just a big city, and not the only one in the world.
Why are you so defensive? Are you worried you are going to find out you've just been enjoying the taste of your own smugness rather than spectacular food?
I've lived both in SF and NY, and NY significantly has more. Not saying SF has bad food, it does, but it pales in comparison to NY. Of course--that is--excluding Burritos. There's nothing smug about saying the truth.
I think once you're hitting the level of "one of the biggest cities in the world" there's almost guaranteed going to be really awesome cuisine. I thought Paris had really great food when I was there, I'm sure Tokyo's got delicious offerings as well (I love Japanese food, mmm).
I just moved to NYC, though, and the food options here are incomparable to anywhere else in the US I've been. (Note: I haven't been to San Francisco, and while I'm sure it has good food too, NYC's excellent transit system means I have wider access to places.)
I'm continuously surprised by how CHEAP things are, too! Yesterday I paid $1.50 for a box of strawberries, $0.75 for some cherry tomatoes, and $2 for a sizeable package of freshly chopped and peeled kiwis. (In the midwest, I'd pay almost that much just for the strawberries.) To top it off, I had the best lamb and rice meal I've ever had...for $5 from a halal food cart. (I actually spent an hour today looking for the cart again, I liked it THAT much, but it was nowhere to be found. I will look again tomorrow!!)
Of course, I still haven't found anywhere that sells a gallon of milk for less than $4, but I'm going to keep searching. I kind of enjoy exploring places and mentally marking down which place has the cheapest offering of a certain thing.
> To top it off, I had the best lamb and rice meal I've ever had...for $5 from a halal food cart. (I actually spent an hour today looking for the cart again, I liked it THAT much, but it was nowhere to be found. I will look again tomorrow!!)
If I were to guess, I'd say it was Halal Boys Platters on 53rd and 6th. Those guys are legendary.
Actually, it was over on...86th and Broadway? Might have been 82nd. After seeing this comment, I went and tried halal guys the other night, but I didn't like the texture of their rice quite as much, and I accidentally put too much hot sauce on. That was my own fault, of course, but I felt like it was more of a chemical burn than a spicy burn. It's not awful, and it's still a good deal for $6 or so, but.
The quest to find the mysteriously vanishing halal cart continues.
I heard Anthony Bourdain being interviewed in SF (on City Arts and Lectures, I think.) Somebody asked him what he thought of the food in SF, and I thought his answer was really interesting. He thought that at the very top end, New York won without question. But that the average restaurant in SF was substantially better.
I can honestly tell you that New York City has absolutely zero good tacos though. The ones that exist are sad and laughable things. This alone is reason to leave the city.
Yeah, Miami can't hold a candle to NYC food. NYC is great because it's just so DENSE. Very little time required to get somewhere awesome, and what travel time you have you can spend reading or whatever.
but that's exactly what makes food taste better. Having to work for it. Thats why sunflower seeds are better than shelled, Wings better than nuggets, unwatched human children mggriddles better than processed mcgriddles.
"Lastly the weather is unparalleled from Nov thru March." Yeah and it's fucking gawdawful for the rest of the year. You can put on more clothes when it's cold but you can't put on more cold when it's hot. But you do get warm water for 6 months of the year. To each their own. Just don't tell me I'm stupid for picking mine. Tell me what's better. Fucking Hot and Humid is not a reason.
Hey, I'm really sorry! I didn't mean to come off as suggesting you're any less smart for your decisions. I just wrote this up as a formalization for when my friends ask me why I live in Miami. I didn't expect for it to front page HN.
No way not a problem. I live in Seattle and it's gorgeous for 2-6 months a year. 6 on a good year fingers crossed for global warming. But the rest of the year means a shit ton of snow and I LOVE snow. If I didn't I'd be in Austin or the south.
I agree with you, it's absurd for most of these people to live in SF.
I'm sure you were just trying to scare off the Californians.
Seattle Cascade snow is wet and icky; it's not the dry soft powder they get in Utah or other places in the Rockies. There are way better places for snow than Seattle.
And it's great snow the day it falls and isnt wet until it gets close to thaw temps. We also get a lot more snow a year over all at lower altitudes than anywhere else. Sure ours not always champagne powder, but with several hundred days skiing/boarding in co and ut, I feel I can make a comparison. Even heavy powder is still a shit ton of fun.
Also because it snows more you are less likely to have tracked out conditions any day of the week.
If you're ever up here check out Crystal or baker.
Just keep telling your California friends it sucks up here in the Woods and I'll keep telling mine about how bad the Mormons are in utah and we'll both be safe.
I'm a native Washingtonian (Bothell/UW grad) so I know the snow at Crystal and Stevens. I also did my phd in SLC, the snow is much better there. These days I live in snowless Beijing.
I would say anything to keep the Californians out; its part of our culture.
As a native born Miamian studying CS the University of Miami, this excites me. I grew up in Bal Harbour and around college time I knew leaving would be a mistake. Nothing compares to the Aventura/ South Beach/ Coral Gables environments. However, It's been really hard to get into the tech community here, even though theres an amazing potential for startups in this city. I'm working on something myself but it seems as if theres no support and I always assumed I'd have to move to California or up north if I wanted to be a serious programmer, so this is great news!
P.S. If anyone needs an intern, I make a great cuban coffee! jacobmizraji@gmail.com
as a person who's been telling SF and NYC to FU, you should really go try other parts of the country and see what you like. Then come back to FLA if you like it.
other than good coffee can you code? or market on social networks. check out our game punsr.com. research us, find me, looking for cs interns. we do more than punsr.com. we are in the grove.
I lived in Florida for 5 years. Lived in St. Louis for 15. It's not a myth, being in a hotter state makes you lazier, more tired, and decreases your productivity levels (unless you're indoors 100% of the time). It's the heat & sun and the way it affects productivity and thinking, and blood distribution.
For me at least, being in the heat would just drain me of my energy and focus. When I lived in Orlando, Florida my productivity just hit rock bottom. I didn't want to do anything. Neither did anyone around me. My neighbors were all lazy, everyone was lazy, the parks had a lot less people than parks up north. Every thing was just slower. Less people walked. Everyone was just inside. The sun is just intense since Florida's closer to the equator, the heat is extreme during the summer and since there's so much humidity your body can't cool itself off through sweat evaporation. Also, when you're in the heat your body sends more blood to circulate in your skin and uses a lot more energy to keep itself cool. And even simple things like going outside to check my mail would just be a burning pain. I'm serious, we all stayed indoors. We were like prisoners. Miami is even worse. And Key West was just... a boiling oven.
Compare the productivity levels, development, & innovation of colder countries with warmer countries. Is it really a surprise that so many 3rd world countries are hot countries near the equator (with very little availability of air conditioning)?
"According to this theory, about 70% of the economic development of a country can be predicted from the distance between that country and the equator. In other words, the further from the equator the more developed a country tends to be." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_determinism
After my Florida experience I'm staying away from the south. Some people love it there though.
pretty sure that it's because you don't get the cold to make you feel less fat after big ass cuban sammiches. Sure you get the AC but then you walk out the door and sweat congeals all over your fat. I know. In the colder climates you just put a packers jersey over it and you sweat on the inside.
I just moved from SF to Miami Beach a month ago. I loved SF but if you have the ability to work from home as I do, financially it does not make sense to stay. I honestly would have preferred to move to Honolulu over here but the only area I liked (Tantalus/roundtop/pacheights) really didn't (at the time) have any nice houses for sale that were under 5 million.
Also, while the cost of living is way down here, so is the income you will get from working a local job. I talked with a few people and there is scant a developer pulling in over 90k here. Compare that to SF where 100k salaries are the norm and it all evens out.
With that said, I like MB/Miami. The tech scene is in its infancy though. I don't believe there is any real institutional venture funds here. Basically, raising a 'A' round is going to be very difficult. You might be able to pull it off with latin american based VC but it will be a struggle.
I will say that the people I have met so far out here have been very nice and welcoming and there is a very good vibe. I am looking forward to building things out here.
I did an internship at IBM's Boca Raton site back in '95, where Microsoft used to work with IBM on OS/2 and NT. There used to be a much more vibrant tech scene in that area in the 90s, before everything moved to....Texas.
I used to work in Boca Raton in 03-05. The tech scene is very much financial services based. I would say most of the SFla tech is financial services. Not the actual stock market, but mortgages, banking, and refi, and normalized payments (the monthly income you would get from winning the lottery or lawsuit).
I was a game beta tester at that IBM site in 96, later called T-REX. $17/hr for a 16yo was way better than anything McDonalds would pay.
Honolulu's cost of living is comparable. Housing costs are slightly lower but food is much more expensive. I make just a little over 90k as a senior engineer and still living pay check to pay check. I probably can make almost double in SF from talking with other engineers I know there so it may be better for me to move.
I recently moved to Orlando from Hawaii for the cost benefits.
Pros:
- Florida was the hit the hardest by the housing collapse, so it's like houses are having a 50% off sale.
- Lots to do. Many cities here like Orlando and Miami were built on tourism, so there's a lot of interesting things to do compared with cities built for business as usual.
- Decent beaches and nice weather in season.
Cons:
- The state government seems extremely backwards/frustrating. Even getting your driver's license switched over requires ~7 documents. Florida representatives frequently say stupid things, so you get to see comedians like Jon Stewart tear them apart on a regular basis.
- The weather. You have to put up with hurricanes and regular storms. My sinuses bug me a lot more here.
- Social life. If you're more progressive/liberal, you'll have to get used to being the odd-man-out. You can also feel left out if you don't speak Spanish in many places here.
Interesting note on politics - always got the impression that Florida was the 'center-of-road swing state' from elections. Is it different on the ground/in social life?
It's barely fair to even refer to Florida as a singular place, because South Florida and "The Rest of Florida" are two different cultures. South Florida is the nice beaches, upscale stuff, and the progressive, educated, imported population. The "Rest of Florida" has small slivers of tourist spots along the coast but for the most part resembles any other southern state, and tends to be quite red politically.
gotta say that sinuses bug out moving a lot. I moved from STL to SEA and had sinuses bug out for first time in 30+ years even though the allergens are way lower in SEA.
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[ 0.17 ms ] story [ 284 ms ] threadThis place has a nice downtown, a pretty diverse population (a lot of medical research and university action). The food's pretty good and somewhat varied (no Shalimar Pakistani unfortunately, I miss my Saag Gosht).
I miss the bay area but can now get back at least every two months or so to see old friends. If you can swing it, give it a try.
Making a Silicon Valley salary remotely in Winston-Salem would let you live like a king.
Besides, the Carolina skies are just breathtaking, and not available at any price. I recently visited Winston with my California native girlfriend, and we were both charmed by the beauty and open space of Carolina.
But on my first visit to the San Jose area in six months I was struck by how beautiful the place I left really is, too. In NC the trees are a bit suffocating. I like seeing the hills around the bay. And the NC trees are all the exact same shade of green during the summer. The hike I took at Purissima along Skyline Blvd was beautiful. And even the crowded housing everywhere has its charm.
We made our choice and moved on to NC, but I'm real glad to be working for a bay area company again.
Downtown Raleigh has art festivals, music festivals (Hopscotch, Wide Open Bluegrass), Red Hat amphitheater, and Duke Energy Center for the Performing Arts (including Meymandi Concert Hall, Fletcher Opera Theater, Kennedy Theater, Memorial Auditorium), etc. There are a lot of great restaurants within walking distance of some nice/fun bars. You don't even have to walk or ride; they have a Trolley you can ride for free (or rent!), a Trolley Pub (bike bar), rickshaws, etc. There are clubs (various kinds and each age groups), but that's not as much my scene anymore. They are to a saturation point with microbrewing companies in the area, they have so many: http://www.ncbeer.org/brewery-map/ And that's not all of Raleigh, e.g. North Hills has been having great free outdoor concerts with a few great bars (and a great grocery store if you want to be cheap) right next to it, which has been our fav recently. It is basically everything you love about a "small town" (great people, community, lower cost of living) in a well-educated and resourced area (NCSU, UNC-CH, Duke Univ. and too many tech companies to mention) with plenty of great places to eat and things to do.
But, Durham has DPAC, lots of great restaurants, a good startup scene, including areas devoted to startups like the Underground in the American Tobacco District next to DPAC and the Durham Bulls ballpark (where they do concerts, too.), etc.
And for the best hole-in-the-wall places to eat, you just have to ask around enough, like anywhere else. It might be a hot pot Chinese place in some random Morrisville strip mall, etc.
If you don't mind cars, the quality of live if pretty great, however it kills me that it is just far enough from the mountains and the beaches for either to be convenient. Freshwater lakes aren't too far, but too much of those nearby are in the watershed supplying water to the area so recreational usage is highly restricted.
And besides all the actual tech companies, there are great tech opportunities in banking if you go to Charlotte, in biotech (all the big pharmas and a lot of the smaller/startups are in and around RTP), and pure science. Just like the Bay Area has Stanford & Berkeley, we have Duke, UNC, and NCSU -- similarly high quality educations, just with a different focus.
In any case, I'm not trying to convince anyone you're wrong, but there are multiple angles to every story and RTP is definitely a good option for a lot of people. Two of my best friends in my neighborhood are relos from California (one from the LA area and one who worked for Heroku in SF), actually.
And in case you are wondering what this has to do with Miami, I agree with the OP, just stay home and build your business (startup or otherwise) right there. You still have a ticket in the startup lottery if that is the way you want to go, but just like in SV itself, most of those startups don't last very long.
However, unlike SV, if you stay where you are then you have a better chance of building a normal business that grows incrementally by serving profitable customers, reinvesting profits, and taking a longer term view.
Readers of HN should be very aware that there are startups all over the place, and not just in American cities but in most countries of the world. Silicon Valley just isn't as special as it once was because computers and tech and Internet connectivity is now virtually everywhere that there are cities.
Not having ever founded a company I could be extremely wrong here but my take is that SF could be detrimental to certain startups.. If you have $x saved up to support you while you start a company it's going to last you much longer in basically any other city in the country other than perhaps Manhattan. At that point you basically have to decide which is going to be more of a factor in your success, extra time with which to build your product or physical proximity to an entrepreneurial community? Of course there's no one right answer, but I suspect that for many web-based startups the extra time and savings would be more important than the surrounding environment.
I think partly it's that people are inspired by the category of businesses that seem like: given $30k and two years in a garage, I could do that! This requires a particular kind of company, and lots of success stories just don't seem like the kind of thing you could do in a garage, so they aren't part of this particular corner of the Valley mythos. For example, one of the top tech IPOs of 2013 is CDW, a Chicago-based B2B firm that's been slowly growing since 1984 by building partnerships and logistics infrastructure, and is now IPO'ing 29 years later. Totally different kind of company.
I think the location actually matters a bit less. People probably do pay more attention to SF-based companies just because that's where a lot of the startup-sector media is, but companies from elsewhere that fit the model I described also get press, like 37signals (Chicago) or SoundCloud (Berlin). A number of the more prominent HN posters with startups are also from outside the Valley, like tptacek (Chicago) and cperciva (Vancouver).
The article title “Why I moved to Miami & you should too” is very different from the HN submission “Before moving your startup to NYC or SFO”.
I don’t always agree with HN moderators’ title changes, but in this case, I can see why the title would be reversed (it hasn’t been yet, as of me writing this.)
Not necessarily contradicting you, just offering another data point.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/jul/29/climate-n...
Down in LA someone is trying to build a skyscraper on an active fault line: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-hollywood-fault-mill...
A good portion of Manhattan will be under water if sea levels rise as well.
Then we all know what happened to New Orleans.
People seem to enjoy evacuating after the fact, not before.
Miami, on the other hand, is mostly flat and is sitting on a porous foundation, in addition to being right next to the everglades. There was a really interesting article recently on it:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-the-city-of-mi...
Ironically - that picture from the RS article is right in front of the 1Sale.com office. I feel compelled to share that it does not look like that often (maybe 1-2 days a year during hurricane season)!
Sadly, I left Utah to follow my wife's (military) career to Tacoma, WA. When she retires in 9 years, you can bet that we'll head back.
Still, 35% nominally LDS is very low for Utah. Summit County is the one place in Utah that leans blue in most elections, and is a common settling place for wealthy persons who like skiing, hence the diminishing LDS population.
I agree there are many geographically desirable locations in WA and OR. However, like the other posters, I'm not what it has to do with anything...
We're doing it in Myrtle Beach, SC: WhyNotTheBeach.com based off the low cost of living, high quality of life, big city amenities, fiber to the home, etc.
Anyway, I live in an area that reaches 43c in the summer and -6c in the winter. When I first moved here it definitely threw me off, but I got acclimated to it quickly.
Neither compare to the peninsula though. It's still mid-20s in Palo Alto during the day right now whereas its mid-teens in Vancouver.
For whatever reason the sun in Canada really seems to burn(at least in Toronto area) and it can get really humid in the summers. But in the winter you can always just bundle up and feel comfortable.
Mother nature is apparently great at causing Stockholm syndrome. You're lucky to have gotten out unscathed. :)
That said, I think there is a mindset to enjoying the heat as well. You should probably not expect to go hiking through the woods in the summer in Florida. It's just not pleasant to be in such places in such humidity with such insects. If you live in Florida, your weekends should be spent at the beach (and please do not call it the shore, it's like calling it soda vs. pop). Sand will get into everywhere and everything, so learning how to deal with sand is a major part of enjoying Florida.
I grew up on the Gold Coast. I love sand. :)
Back north, outside of 2 months of summer you keep having to adjust heating or put on/take off layers of clothing as the time of day progresses, and the slightest shiver gives me a "what is this, I shouldn't have to live this way, I give up, brain shut-down initiated" wave of misery :D hence, tropics suit me best and I do manage to get stuff done here. .
Not quite so far south, great weather, big city amenities, even lower cost of living, fiber to the home...
http://www.fark.com/topic/florida
"Have you ever been to Florida? It's basically a criminal population. It's America's Australia." - Jack Donaghy, 30 Rock
Collecting the weird stories has become an internet meme.
That being said the everglades national park is one of the most beautiful places I've been. (Just don't go during mosquito season)....
edit: I can't believe I was the second reference to fark on this thread....
>Disgruntled ex-boyfriend left thousands of voicemails on his ex-girlfriend's phone, adds sound effects like gunshots in the background for that added criminal charge[1]
[1]Sun Sentintal
https://twitter.com/_FloridaMan
http://filmdrunk.uproxx.com/tag/florida-friday
Chances are you are meeting the adult version of the cynical kids I grew up with. Some of them tried to move back to NYC, Boston, NJ and found the neighbourhood had changed and no one remembered them or cared.
Something to consider is whether or not you've got kids. Right now my family lives in an affordable neighborhood with a tolerant culture and excellent public schools that my two kids attend. In Texas, it seemed more like getting a good secular education for your kids was something that you had to pay a lot for, one way or the other -- either living in a super affluent neighborhood or finding private schools. Financially, I think that I may actually come out ahead living in one of the so-called "education states."
Granted, my cultural biases show themselves in this post.
Also, what are the "education states" and why?
Though unless you're planning on sending your kids to one of these schools I don't think this really tells you much of anything.
Of course compared to the rest of the state...
I have to disagree with this. I graduated from a regular public school in Texas and there was nothing sectarian about the education and it was far better than the public high school I attended in the SF Bay Area (they could actually afford things like copy paper, something my CA high school stopped buying due to budget cuts. They also dropped all advanced courses, this in a neighborhood with houses reaching $1 million).
I lived in an affluent neighborhood in Texas, yes, but the bar to afford such a neighborhood isn't very high here. ~$250k homes in that area for some of the top-ranked high schools in the nation.
That said, even with those little unpleasantnesses, I did get an excellent education.
You wouldn't believe the lengths some people go to to spite believers.
"Not eating is a style of cuisine, just like Ethiopian or Italian, because those darn anorexics are just so vehement about it."
If you live in an urban inner-city neighborhood, though, then yes, you have to pay an extraordinary amount to get a good education for your kids through private school. On the plus side, Houston has some incredibly strong private high schools (e.g., St. John's School) if you can afford the $20-25k/year tuition on top of the super expensive real estate and the 3% property taxes.
Lies :P I've lived in Miami. March to November, it's super-hot and super-humid. And it has hurricanes.
Miami in May: http://instagram.com/p/ZFur0VQWkM/
June: http://instagram.com/p/aBqCq_QWhp/
Yes it's hot (& most definitely humid) but bad weather is not really that common (at least for me in the last 2 years) & I think the sky & sunsets are flippin' beautiful!
and oh god that last picture makes me cringe and wrap myself in my 30 degree blanket.
I'll take a hovel in SF over a mansion in Miami any day.
Besides, the defense of Miami in this article stinks of all that is wrong with America - that it's filled with great places to consume. Don't get me wrong, I love my fancy hipster bars, restaurants, and shops - but those aren't what makes SF the best city for me.
The population of Miami is around 410,000. When someone tries to "comparing the people of X", where X is a population of 410,000, I think the bigger insight is to be gleaned from the writer's preconceptions than their conclusions.
While it may not be politically correct to say that one city is "dumber, less creative, and 'worse at life'," it seems to be politically fine to say San Francisco is filled with creative, smart, "good at life" people. Of course, those statements are logically equivalent, so it's really just politics you are arguing.
Another true statement is that San Francisco is a magnet for homeless drug addicts. It turns out there are a lot of people in both places and you can find really good and really bad parts of each.
Snark aside, 26% of Miami has Bachelor's degrees. San Francisco county is 51%. Marin, 54%. San Mateo county, 46%.
Source: US Census, by way of http://chronicle.com/article/Attainment-Interactive/125995/
Of course, the people still making your old salary surely feel terrible that your now-doubled salary is filling you with discussed. If you ask nicely, I bet they'll trade paychecks with you so you feel better.
But if you make 50K your gonna see 38K in your pocket. 12K in taxes is a fair amount as I'm all for taxes for roads and services I use.
Though taking half of what you make each year in the various taxes is insane and again for me makes me think why work harder and smarter. The majority of my rewards will be taken from me!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/09/19/h...
Regardless, you seem to be upset that we have a progressive tax system, where the rich proportionally pay more. That seems fine to me. Paying for "what you use" is a terrible standard. The whole thing has to get paid for.
Though what percentage is a fair share? I was fine with 25 percent tax, but damn after working hard and smart your reward is a little more money in your pocket and a lot more in Uncle Sam's pocket....
I'm effectively paying EU tax rates without any of the benefits (child care, universal healthcare, etc).
For instance in Florida you pay ~2% property tax on your assessed value and in california you pay ~1% on your purchased value. If you bought property at 500k and its appreciated to 1 million in CA you pay 5k in FL you pay 20k.
Also you have to live in CA. And in SF. Double whammy.
I don't even get a decent startup scene for that.
As a simple example:
If you make 1 million a year and live in a 2 million dollar house.
Property tax in Cali : 20k Income tax in Cali : ~65k
Property tax in FL : 40k Income tax in FL: Zero
So in this example, you are 100% better off being in florida.
Only 65k taxes on 1 million in income? In California? I'll pay you to do my taxes.
So on 1m you will pay ~350k to the fed gov- That leaves you with 650k 'net' remaining. CA taxes you on this amount. Hence the 65k for Cali.
Nothing compares to the food of new york city. Absolutely nothing. Don't even fucking try.
"I live within walking distance of two zagat top 10 rated restaurants." There are sixty restaurants within walking distance of my apartment and they're all better than anything in miami. Fuck, 5 of them are run by Top Chef winners. And there are 10 more that are better than those because the food network doesn't even get the top talent.
But seriously nyc has some good food but it doesn't have a stranglehold on great ingredients. The west coast in fact has better access and makes better use of it because it's natural to just assume that those things exists.
Some of the best food I've had is actually in local quality resturants in detroit, stl, pittsburgh, and boston, when they are showing off their natural 300 mile radius ingredients and how to use them in season.
(For those unfamiliar, Michelin stars are sort of like the Academy Awards of food. Even a 1-star restaurant is an extraordinary meal, and you should expect to pay $100-200 a person. 3-star places are reputedly the best of the best; a meal there runs $300-600 per person.)
[1] http://sf.eater.com/archives/2012/10/23/michelin_guide_2013_...
If you're a super rich socialite, then yeah, focus on the stars, but otherwise....er, well. [No diss on Michelin-starred restaurants intended! I've eaten at such places a couple of times in my life and they were very nice.]
That is not a critique, that is a statement. Pizza comes in one form, and that form is NY/Neapolitan style. The rest is some kind of bizarre cheese/tomato pie bread thing.
I like NYC pizza, at least from the major famous places. Your typical corner pizza is no better than any other corner pizza place on the east coast.
I live in Tokyo right now and I definitely eat better than I did in NYC. NYC only has Tokyo beat on prices, since both places only have mediocre Mexican food.
I like NYC pizza, at least from the major famous places. Your typical corner pizza is no better than any other corner pizza place on the east coast.
I live in Tokyo right now and I definitely eat better than I did in NYC. NYC only has Tokyo beat on prices, since both places only have mediocre Mexican food.
Good fried chicken, I would expect can be found outside of midtown/downtown Manhattan although I haven't explicitly gone looking. Good BBQ is pretty easy to find, especially compared to most places on the East Coast, obviously it doesn't compare much to SC or KC proper.
And get out of my way. [1]
1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LmPBPWHJu4&noredirect=1
Compare this to where I grew up: the only places to eat closeby were mcdonalds, wendy's, and burger king type places. We didn't even have (and still don't have) a starbucks, and it was a ~big deal~ when chipotle and then a panera came in.
I do miss cheap gas station slushies, though. They're hard to find here in NYC.
I'm sorry you choose to live somewhere that only had McDonald's close.
We have plenty of food close to the source here in nyc, too. Try union square on a saturday, or any one of the many places that makes things from local ingredients. It's actually much more common to see that here than the midwest. Plus, there are tons of different ethnic food places that aren't even available in less diverse states.
There's also this thing called "the Atlantic ocean." Good luck getting fresh sea food where you live, if being ~close to the source~ is so important to you.
- You win no favors with the trump and SP on that
- http://www.restaurantpi.com/ is good but it's not the best. Obama loves it and pissed of chicago for it though
- Seriously though, pizza is a regional thing. I'm not going to convince you that your pizza is shit no matter how crap the ingredients and the velveta topping are. You're not going to convince a CPK fan that their pizza is shit.
- The best Chicago style pizza is actually in STL. That's a challenge and a threat.
As an immigrant I'm struggling to find a way to parse that sentence that isn't at least slightly derogatory.
Isn't pizza an "immigrant" food? Or General Tso's chicken? California rolls? In the context of being in the USA, wouldn't French food be "immigrant food"?
I'm not trying to be purposely obtuse - but like the word "ethnic food" I can't see any reasonable definition that doesn't betray an unfamiliarity with what's being discussed.
I have a feeling that "immigrant food" falls into the same category as "I like ethnic food" - it's a concept that doesn't even parse if you've got even a basic familiarity with a wide range of cuisines.
I'm not saying the food is better than NYC, you guys win on sheer volume, I'm just saying it's damn good & really easy to find (unlike the suburbs I grew up in)!
You end up sounding just like so many New-Yorkers --annoying and conceited. But no, living there doesn't make you special. It's just a big city, and not the only one in the world.
I just moved to NYC, though, and the food options here are incomparable to anywhere else in the US I've been. (Note: I haven't been to San Francisco, and while I'm sure it has good food too, NYC's excellent transit system means I have wider access to places.)
I'm continuously surprised by how CHEAP things are, too! Yesterday I paid $1.50 for a box of strawberries, $0.75 for some cherry tomatoes, and $2 for a sizeable package of freshly chopped and peeled kiwis. (In the midwest, I'd pay almost that much just for the strawberries.) To top it off, I had the best lamb and rice meal I've ever had...for $5 from a halal food cart. (I actually spent an hour today looking for the cart again, I liked it THAT much, but it was nowhere to be found. I will look again tomorrow!!)
Of course, I still haven't found anywhere that sells a gallon of milk for less than $4, but I'm going to keep searching. I kind of enjoy exploring places and mentally marking down which place has the cheapest offering of a certain thing.
If I were to guess, I'd say it was Halal Boys Platters on 53rd and 6th. Those guys are legendary.
The quest to find the mysteriously vanishing halal cart continues.
Again, I'm sorry for offending you!
I agree with you, it's absurd for most of these people to live in SF.
Now rain on the other hand....
Seattle Cascade snow is wet and icky; it's not the dry soft powder they get in Utah or other places in the Rockies. There are way better places for snow than Seattle.
Also because it snows more you are less likely to have tracked out conditions any day of the week.
If you're ever up here check out Crystal or baker.
Just keep telling your California friends it sucks up here in the Woods and I'll keep telling mine about how bad the Mormons are in utah and we'll both be safe.
I would say anything to keep the Californians out; its part of our culture.
P.S. If anyone needs an intern, I make a great cuban coffee! jacobmizraji@gmail.com
I lived in Florida for 5 years. Lived in St. Louis for 15. It's not a myth, being in a hotter state makes you lazier, more tired, and decreases your productivity levels (unless you're indoors 100% of the time). It's the heat & sun and the way it affects productivity and thinking, and blood distribution.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/09/24/a...
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865562780/Hot-news-The-be...
For me at least, being in the heat would just drain me of my energy and focus. When I lived in Orlando, Florida my productivity just hit rock bottom. I didn't want to do anything. Neither did anyone around me. My neighbors were all lazy, everyone was lazy, the parks had a lot less people than parks up north. Every thing was just slower. Less people walked. Everyone was just inside. The sun is just intense since Florida's closer to the equator, the heat is extreme during the summer and since there's so much humidity your body can't cool itself off through sweat evaporation. Also, when you're in the heat your body sends more blood to circulate in your skin and uses a lot more energy to keep itself cool. And even simple things like going outside to check my mail would just be a burning pain. I'm serious, we all stayed indoors. We were like prisoners. Miami is even worse. And Key West was just... a boiling oven.
Compare the productivity levels, development, & innovation of colder countries with warmer countries. Is it really a surprise that so many 3rd world countries are hot countries near the equator (with very little availability of air conditioning)?
"According to this theory, about 70% of the economic development of a country can be predicted from the distance between that country and the equator. In other words, the further from the equator the more developed a country tends to be." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_determinism
After my Florida experience I'm staying away from the south. Some people love it there though.
Also, while the cost of living is way down here, so is the income you will get from working a local job. I talked with a few people and there is scant a developer pulling in over 90k here. Compare that to SF where 100k salaries are the norm and it all evens out.
With that said, I like MB/Miami. The tech scene is in its infancy though. I don't believe there is any real institutional venture funds here. Basically, raising a 'A' round is going to be very difficult. You might be able to pull it off with latin american based VC but it will be a struggle.
I will say that the people I have met so far out here have been very nice and welcoming and there is a very good vibe. I am looking forward to building things out here.
I was a game beta tester at that IBM site in 96, later called T-REX. $17/hr for a 16yo was way better than anything McDonalds would pay.
I paid $1,600/month a few winters ago for basically a wooden shack with tin roof and high speed internet (across the street from V-land).
Nice work/life balance, code, surf, code, surf, woohooo ;-)
Pros:
- Florida was the hit the hardest by the housing collapse, so it's like houses are having a 50% off sale.
- Lots to do. Many cities here like Orlando and Miami were built on tourism, so there's a lot of interesting things to do compared with cities built for business as usual.
- Decent beaches and nice weather in season.
Cons:
- The state government seems extremely backwards/frustrating. Even getting your driver's license switched over requires ~7 documents. Florida representatives frequently say stupid things, so you get to see comedians like Jon Stewart tear them apart on a regular basis.
- The weather. You have to put up with hurricanes and regular storms. My sinuses bug me a lot more here.
- Social life. If you're more progressive/liberal, you'll have to get used to being the odd-man-out. You can also feel left out if you don't speak Spanish in many places here.