Article seems to imply that there is no way to replace the headphone jack because it's soldered to the pcb, but presumably someone with the right equipment could unsolder it and put a new one on?
On a lot of laptops, the jack is mounted to the case with a single screw and connected to the motherboard via a short pigtail connector. This eases in repair since you can very easily swap in a new connector without having to do any desoldering.
Yes, the headphone jack was emphasised as if it's a big thing - but come on, how else should headphone jacks be attached? On my old PCs the hearphone jacks are soldered on to the motherboard, and can still be replaced by anyone capable of holding a soldering iron; unlike, say, soldered-in RAM chips which can't really be upgraded that way.
Realistically, you can only blame them for glued in battery and and soldered in RAM. But then, RAM upgrade is an (overpriced) option. And it's not like there are number of options to upgrade to 32 or 64 GB.
The score is arbitrary value, which is dictated by the market. And we all pretty well know what the market is like.
Just when you thought they could not make their hardware any more repair unfriendly, they find a way.
I think iFixit needs to start having a minus score on the repairability score - this can earn a one, it surely has to lose that for extra soldered and glued parts alone.
Compare it to the user serviceability of a 1950s muscle car versus a 2013 Tesla.
They're not making it one piece to say "screw you, HN user who wants after market RAM!" -- they're doing it because it makes the machine physically smaller and lighter.
If you don't like their new work, you can still go to HP and buy a laptop with a DVD drive, a bluray drive, two VGA ports, a PS/2 port, and a proprietary six inch wide docking station port.
Well, iFixit says even trying to remove most things from inside the machine has a chance at breaking other parts irreparably (e.g. removing the battery (which takes 30 minutes of practice) has a good chance at slicing your trackpad I/O cable).
The user hostile screws are just trying to say "Look, we're trying to save you from yourself. There's nothing in here you can fix without ripping cables and rendering your machine into an ineffective boat anchor."
I bought a new ThinkPad W530 back in May along with an SSD and 4x8GB sticks of RAM to upgrade myself. I spent five minutes looking over the service manual and another five minutes doing the upgrades, thanks to the standard screws that Lenovo chose to use.
When I bought my last MBP, I had them (at the Apple Store) upgrade the RAM, which meant I had to wait around for 90 minutes for them to do it.
To be fair, changing RAM and putting in an SSD in a unibody MBP would only take a few minutes if you did it yourself too. The only "tricky" piece was disconnecting the battery (not strictly necessary), and that only needed a triwing screwdriver.
Might be, I still find it ironic, given that the founding fathers of Apple grew out of the open hacking/engineering community where all the designs were out in the wild and you could mess with things at will.
I think I repeat this every time Apple releases a new Macbook model, but here it is anyways.
I was a Swiss trained watchmaker before I switched careers and became a software developer. Back in the 40s through 60s, both the Swiss and American watch companies standardized on a 6-point case back that was removable with a two or three-pronged adjustable wrench. The same design is still being used for the most part in middle luxury brands. Though, if you ever look at the back of a modern mid-100 dollar watch (Casio, off-brands, etc.), you'll probably see a little lip where you can place the blade of a knife. Giving the knife a slight twisting motion easily pops the back off, giving anyone the ability to change the battery. But go take a look at some of the higher luxury brands and you'll see various variations of case backs. Rolex uses a fluted design unique to themselves. Breitling uses a design similar to the older 6-point, but it's more like a 18-sided polygon that requires a wrench with flat jaws. Omega uses a design with a number of deep holes in the case back, requiring a wrench with points that fit loosely on the back (instead of tightened onto it).
The reasons for the "proprietary" case back designs, especially with Rolex, is exactly the same as Apple using non-standard Pentalobe screws, which you point out. These things are not serviceable to 95% of the population (and if you think that number is high, go visit the mid-west for a week and get out of the big city costal echo-chambers). I can't tell you how many times some wiseguy walked into my shop with a small container containing all but a couple pieces of his watch asking me to put it back together after they took it apart to do some trivial task, most of the time one that probably didn't require any disassembly to begin with.
If you think you can personally take apart a retina MacBook Pro and replace the trackpad, no one is stopping you from buying the special screwdriver and doing it yourself with help from iFixit, but Apple certainly isn't going to honor that warranty. Requiring at least one hoop for you to jump through in order to even get the back off is enough evidence for them to know that anyone walking through their door with their product rattling around in an altoids tin intentionally decided to disassemble the thing themselves. It's a premeditative action, instead of an accidental impulse.
I don't want to have to pay someone to undust the fan of my laptop after a year of usage. I am a grown up, I accept that the warranty will not be valid past that point and that I might break something. I paid for the thing and I have the right to do with it whatever I want.
The clock thing above isn't a fair comparison, a computer doesn't fall apart into two hundred pieces once you unscrew the case, there are just a few discrete components and most of the time one just replaces one of them completely, almost nobody attempts to repair surface mounted components with a soldering iron, even at the repair shops. You don't have to have any special knowledge to do those things, just know a few tricks, ironically mostly related to opening things the producer didn't want you to open, and handle it with some care.
By the way, am I not, accidentally, at a site called "Hacker News"?
>By the way, am I not, accidentally, at a site called "Hacker News"?
The parent's point wasn't that Apple was trying to lock out the standard HN reader, or that an HN reader shouldn't try to repair the device. His point was that Apple is putting an obstacle in the way of a nontechnical person shooting themselves in the foot.
>The clock thing above isn't a fair comparison, a computer doesn't fall apart into two hundred pieces once you unscrew the case
I think it's a good comparison. As the grandparent mentions as an example, removing the battery risks slicing the trackpad I/O cable. While that's not falling apart into hundreds of pieces, it certainly hinders use of the computer.
Removing the battery risks slicing the trackpad I/O cable because they designed it this way without any apparent reason, and they glued the battery to the case. I do understand that there are engineering tradeoffs sometimes between ease of maintenance and form factor or safety, but it's certainly not the case in all of the cases mentioned in the article.
It's Orwellian or perhaps Huxley-an to me that people buy into the rhetoric that they close up every single thing they make in a closed ecosystem just because of this oh so great care about the customer. Apple is a company, they might not have evil plans to conquer the world, but the most important thing for them is to make profit - one shouldn't fall in love with a company, no matter how good their products.
Yeah, I was a bit worried at first when I got my Mid-2011 MacBook Pro (first machine I'd got with a glossy display) but it turned out to be fine - I've never really had any issues with it. If there's glare, usually you just tilt it slightly and it's fine... And it really does make a big improvement to colour saturation.
Improvement? For watching movies maybe, or a vacation slide show. But for working with color, I haven't found a better option than a well calibrated matte display on the mid-2012 MBP.
I guess shiny displays and vibrant colours make sense for watching movies and the like. For working however I'm more than willing to trade sharpness for comfort.
I don't know what's "comfortable" about staring at text through a cheese cloth all day. I find the graininess to be fatiguing. The best setup is a non-matte display with good anti-glare coating and good room lighting.
The best display I've seen for coding is probably the one on the Surface Pro, which is optically bonded to further increase clarity and reduce reflections. I haven't spent much time with an rMBP though.
This is what's stopping me from upgrading. Right now I have a non retina display with an ssd and an HDD in the optical drive spot. Im about to upgrade my RAM to 16gb so I can run my windows VM with more than enough RAM.
I like to upgrade the internals without paying an arm and a leg. You can almost upgrade your ram and ssd for what apple charges to go from 8-16gb of RAM.
We're in the same Apple computer boat. I'm on a 2010 MBP with 2x2.5" 240GB SSD and I'm maxed out at 8 GB RAM.
But—the new high-end rMBP by default has 512 GB SSD (much smaller physically) and 16 GB RAM soldered on (takes up less space than using RAM on interchangeable headers).
[Nobody seems to complain about non-socketed CPUs in laptops.]
The arrow of Apple Progress doesn't go backwards. We're not getting replaceable RAM in mobiles again.
Agreed, the days of modding your laptop are going to be gone (for apple and probably everyone if ultra books take hold for the masses).
The newly released rMBP's are more appealing than last year. That 256 or 512 ssd sounds like more than enough especially coupled with that nice retina display. Especially if I can convince my girlfriend to use her education discount.
I have the same setup with my 15" MBP, that was probably the last upgradeable Apple laptop ever.
I'd love a retina display, but I'll be holding on to that outdated MBP for as long as I can. I don't really care for the reduction in thickness and weight these mono-block designs have purportedly made possible. It's not even about them overcharging me for parts I can easily upgrade myself for half the price, although they do.
For me the main problem is the fact that as these machines are mere appliances now, their capabilities are fixed from the moment of purchase. There is no way to upgrade RAM, or to replace a damaged part. Now, any kind of defect means the device is bricked. And I will never be able to extend it beyond its original functionality.
This is not OK for a device that costs € 3000+ and has an expected service life of 2-3 years. These devices are simply too expensive for a design that treats them as mere disposables. Because that's what they have become.
If those tightly-integrated hunks of plastic were getting cheaper, I'd say this is just the way things go: a rapid buy-and-replace cycle with a solid recycling process behind it. But that's not the direction Apple is going. They seem to be focusing on customers for whom a frequent multi-thousand dollar expense is no issue.
Increasingly, I just get the sense that Apple is screwing me and the profit margin on those devices is a good indicator for that.
They are turning their product lines into ipad/iphone like, they are not upgradable. Even a broken iPhone 5 front glass screen requires a whole new panel.
I am horrified to think what will happen if I get a new rMBP and a year later something breaks. I dont buy apple care, so will I be stuck paying 1,000 for a whole new logic board because all the pieces are soldered on?
MBP has a newer Thunderbolt 2 compare with iMac, and iMac will not see an upgrade until next spring. So the notebook is more powerful than desktop in this respect.
Since they're making it harder and harder to do any repairs or upgrades yourself, I don't think I'd buy a Mac laptop without AppleCare. For iPad/iPhone, AppleCare+ may or may not be a good deal (I'm more likely to upgrade in a year, and have amex coverage on some damage, and think theft is more likely than damage due to using a case, so unclear). I'd probably get it for a Mac Pro, but maybe not for a personal-use Mini.
The problem is the useful life for an iPad/iPhone is usually more like 2-3y, vs. 1-2y, and for a computer, maybe even up to 5y vs. 3y. I guess if it breaks after AppleCare, as long as you have backups, you just buy a replacement early. I miss the 5y service contracts with onsite service from IBM, though (and even better than Apple for take-in service in non-US countries; there aren't Apple Stores in every country, but there were IBM ThinkPad service locations essentially everywhere).
The loophole where you used to be able to buy valid applecare certs for about half price on eBay seems to have closed, so now they're only 20-30% cheaper than Apple.
As a general observation on extended warranty programs (without claiming this is the case for Apple, I have no idea), it might not be uncommon to time the program length shy of the expected breakage time of the device. To look at it from another perspective the companies providing them need to make money out of the extended warranty services after all
Which component? I imagine these are for all of the little things that need GPIO, like power and under-keyboard lights, the lid close sensor, etc. There's no use powering up the main CPU to slowly strobe the power light at you when you can offload that to a component that sips power.
If you look at the datasheet for that component[1] you'll see that it's actually a really slow (24MHz) "M8C" core, which turns out to be a MIPS core[2]. It's got a ton of GPIO and various other interfaces (I2C, SPI, serial) as well as USB. I would bet that that chip drives a bunch of the little stuff.
I get that repairability is their shtick and all, but I dislike the way they present it without any reference to the underlying engineering tradeoffs. E.g. they kvetch constantly about laminated LCD's, but I'd never buy a machine without a laminated LCD it this price point. Getting rid of the air gap does huge things for contrast and clarity. Also, they fail to distinguish between compromises to repairability that do or do not carry their weight. E.g. the Chromebook Pixel is similar in size to the rMBP, but the rMBP fits a substantially bigger battery (74 Whr versus 59 Whr).
Also, Apple will replace your battery for $99 (iPad), $130 (MBA), or $200 (rMBP). Lenovo charges $150 for a replacement battery for the X220. If you replace the battery midway through a 4-year service life of the machine, how much is the non-repairability costing you? $100 over four years?
I agree, though not about the battery. There's a world of difference between being able to instantly replace the battery with a spare and not being able to do so and sit on the charger. To me it's the difference between a device made for actually traveling, and a device that you can only use during a commute.
The vast majority of people are better served by longer battery runtime. The need to maintain that second battery charge is something that you have to keep up on, and if you don't you have a $150 brick.
But Apple is extremely upfront about that. There is no sneaky attempt to disguise the fact that you cannot swap batteries on the go. If that’s what you need then this laptop is not for you and that’s that. Buy something else. Just, please, recognise that not everyone has the same needs as you.
To some extent - but if you've got a battery life of 9 hours (rMBP) or up to 14 hours (Air), then the distinction starts to melt away. There can't be that many people who won't have access to power in that timeframe.
What I mean is that they will try to print bare chips on their own motherboard to save space and weight. They can afford ordering custom chips without industry standard enclosure in volume - why not do that if it saves space.
This is really self serving nonsense. Of course its going to be harder to repair a computer that is made up of fewer and fewer discrete parts - the batteries bonded to the case means that the case itself is the battery and should be considered the minimal replacement part.
When my volvo died on the freeway, the "fix" was to replace the engine control unit, not some part of that computer.
This would be like complaining that just because you could replace the MMU on a Mac II in 1988, apple screwed you over by using a 68030 with on board MMU.
Who cares. I do not care one bit if I can replace or repair my MacBook or MacBook Air. You know what I care about - the fact that it is very light and I can use it on the flight from San Francisco to Tokyo. Everyone that cares really need to get over themselves. Welcome to the world of solid state. Heck, if it made them more reliable and run longer they could fill the inside with gel for all I care. I buy this because it works and when it does not Apple fixes it. Just to be clear I no longer fix or repair my:
1. car
2. LCD TV
3. stereo
4. every other piece of electronics made after 2006 or so
They are just to complex anymore and I just do not care.
Some of us do care. We care about paying more for overpriced RAM upfront because we cannot upgrade later. We care that we have to leave our laptop with Apple for long periods of time to do repairs of any kind (do they repair? Probably replace). We also care about the environment. Shiny is nice, but shiny comes at a cost way above the dollar sales ticket.
Nice, down voted for speaking the truth. Let me try again with a bit more detail.
Look, if you do not like a product then do not buy it. That is the way it works. Apple makes higher priced higher quality kit and they charge for it. If you are not willing to pay for that then buy something else. If the world agrees with you then they will start to loose sales and change the thing that bugged you. I for one have no issues paying for the level of quality and service I get from Apple. In the life time of the device I buy that extra 10% just does not really matter.
Agree with you up a point. But I don't think this is a BMW/Ford issue.
I do think that glued in memory is a dumb thing. Memory is almost like a consumable and prices tend to vary dramatically within the service life of a laptop. Bigger chips come out, prices drop, etc. If 1% of the population is capable of doing a trackpad or screen replacement, 15% are capable of doing a ram upgrade.
Also your needs change. I never did video editing, ever -- then we had a baby. That new need drove me to upgrade my 2008 iMac, as it just didn't have the juice. Memory is different, there are lots of elegant ways to approach that problem without compromising the design aesthetic -- in fact Apple has done this with other computers.
Saying "buy a Ford" isn't a useful response. Apple is the sole owner of the Mac OS platform. I can buy an HP laptop, but I miss out on the value that the platform brings -- I don't want Windows or Linux.
67 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 81.9 ms ] threadThe score is arbitrary value, which is dictated by the market. And we all pretty well know what the market is like.
I think iFixit needs to start having a minus score on the repairability score - this can earn a one, it surely has to lose that for extra soldered and glued parts alone.
They're not making it one piece to say "screw you, HN user who wants after market RAM!" -- they're doing it because it makes the machine physically smaller and lighter.
If you don't like their new work, you can still go to HP and buy a laptop with a DVD drive, a bluray drive, two VGA ports, a PS/2 port, and a proprietary six inch wide docking station port.
The user hostile screws are just trying to say "Look, we're trying to save you from yourself. There's nothing in here you can fix without ripping cables and rendering your machine into an ineffective boat anchor."
When I bought my last MBP, I had them (at the Apple Store) upgrade the RAM, which meant I had to wait around for 90 minutes for them to do it.
I was a Swiss trained watchmaker before I switched careers and became a software developer. Back in the 40s through 60s, both the Swiss and American watch companies standardized on a 6-point case back that was removable with a two or three-pronged adjustable wrench. The same design is still being used for the most part in middle luxury brands. Though, if you ever look at the back of a modern mid-100 dollar watch (Casio, off-brands, etc.), you'll probably see a little lip where you can place the blade of a knife. Giving the knife a slight twisting motion easily pops the back off, giving anyone the ability to change the battery. But go take a look at some of the higher luxury brands and you'll see various variations of case backs. Rolex uses a fluted design unique to themselves. Breitling uses a design similar to the older 6-point, but it's more like a 18-sided polygon that requires a wrench with flat jaws. Omega uses a design with a number of deep holes in the case back, requiring a wrench with points that fit loosely on the back (instead of tightened onto it).
The reasons for the "proprietary" case back designs, especially with Rolex, is exactly the same as Apple using non-standard Pentalobe screws, which you point out. These things are not serviceable to 95% of the population (and if you think that number is high, go visit the mid-west for a week and get out of the big city costal echo-chambers). I can't tell you how many times some wiseguy walked into my shop with a small container containing all but a couple pieces of his watch asking me to put it back together after they took it apart to do some trivial task, most of the time one that probably didn't require any disassembly to begin with.
If you think you can personally take apart a retina MacBook Pro and replace the trackpad, no one is stopping you from buying the special screwdriver and doing it yourself with help from iFixit, but Apple certainly isn't going to honor that warranty. Requiring at least one hoop for you to jump through in order to even get the back off is enough evidence for them to know that anyone walking through their door with their product rattling around in an altoids tin intentionally decided to disassemble the thing themselves. It's a premeditative action, instead of an accidental impulse.
The clock thing above isn't a fair comparison, a computer doesn't fall apart into two hundred pieces once you unscrew the case, there are just a few discrete components and most of the time one just replaces one of them completely, almost nobody attempts to repair surface mounted components with a soldering iron, even at the repair shops. You don't have to have any special knowledge to do those things, just know a few tricks, ironically mostly related to opening things the producer didn't want you to open, and handle it with some care.
By the way, am I not, accidentally, at a site called "Hacker News"?
The parent's point wasn't that Apple was trying to lock out the standard HN reader, or that an HN reader shouldn't try to repair the device. His point was that Apple is putting an obstacle in the way of a nontechnical person shooting themselves in the foot.
>The clock thing above isn't a fair comparison, a computer doesn't fall apart into two hundred pieces once you unscrew the case
I think it's a good comparison. As the grandparent mentions as an example, removing the battery risks slicing the trackpad I/O cable. While that's not falling apart into hundreds of pieces, it certainly hinders use of the computer.
It's Orwellian or perhaps Huxley-an to me that people buy into the rhetoric that they close up every single thing they make in a closed ecosystem just because of this oh so great care about the customer. Apple is a company, they might not have evil plans to conquer the world, but the most important thing for them is to make profit - one shouldn't fall in love with a company, no matter how good their products.
I guess shiny displays and vibrant colours make sense for watching movies and the like. For working however I'm more than willing to trade sharpness for comfort.
I mean, from your link, look at this: http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o139/callsign_vega/PICT00...
Which side of the screens looks best for coding honestly?
The best display I've seen for coding is probably the one on the Surface Pro, which is optically bonded to further increase clarity and reduce reflections. I haven't spent much time with an rMBP though.
I like to upgrade the internals without paying an arm and a leg. You can almost upgrade your ram and ssd for what apple charges to go from 8-16gb of RAM.
But—the new high-end rMBP by default has 512 GB SSD (much smaller physically) and 16 GB RAM soldered on (takes up less space than using RAM on interchangeable headers).
[Nobody seems to complain about non-socketed CPUs in laptops.]
The arrow of Apple Progress doesn't go backwards. We're not getting replaceable RAM in mobiles again.
The newly released rMBP's are more appealing than last year. That 256 or 512 ssd sounds like more than enough especially coupled with that nice retina display. Especially if I can convince my girlfriend to use her education discount.
I'd love a retina display, but I'll be holding on to that outdated MBP for as long as I can. I don't really care for the reduction in thickness and weight these mono-block designs have purportedly made possible. It's not even about them overcharging me for parts I can easily upgrade myself for half the price, although they do.
For me the main problem is the fact that as these machines are mere appliances now, their capabilities are fixed from the moment of purchase. There is no way to upgrade RAM, or to replace a damaged part. Now, any kind of defect means the device is bricked. And I will never be able to extend it beyond its original functionality.
This is not OK for a device that costs € 3000+ and has an expected service life of 2-3 years. These devices are simply too expensive for a design that treats them as mere disposables. Because that's what they have become.
If those tightly-integrated hunks of plastic were getting cheaper, I'd say this is just the way things go: a rapid buy-and-replace cycle with a solid recycling process behind it. But that's not the direction Apple is going. They seem to be focusing on customers for whom a frequent multi-thousand dollar expense is no issue.
Increasingly, I just get the sense that Apple is screwing me and the profit margin on those devices is a good indicator for that.
I am horrified to think what will happen if I get a new rMBP and a year later something breaks. I dont buy apple care, so will I be stuck paying 1,000 for a whole new logic board because all the pieces are soldered on?
The problem is the useful life for an iPad/iPhone is usually more like 2-3y, vs. 1-2y, and for a computer, maybe even up to 5y vs. 3y. I guess if it breaks after AppleCare, as long as you have backups, you just buy a replacement early. I miss the 5y service contracts with onsite service from IBM, though (and even better than Apple for take-in service in non-US countries; there aren't Apple Stores in every country, but there were IBM ThinkPad service locations essentially everywhere).
The loophole where you used to be able to buy valid applecare certs for about half price on eBay seems to have closed, so now they're only 20-30% cheaper than Apple.
The extra ARM cores tend to be integrated into 802.11 controllers or storage controllers.
Cypress Semiconductor CY8C24794-24LTXI Programmable System-on-Chip
[1]: http://www.cypress.com/?mpn=CY8C24794-24LTXI
[2]: http://eessential.blogspot.com/2010/11/survey-of-microcontro...
Also, Apple will replace your battery for $99 (iPad), $130 (MBA), or $200 (rMBP). Lenovo charges $150 for a replacement battery for the X220. If you replace the battery midway through a 4-year service life of the machine, how much is the non-repairability costing you? $100 over four years?
The vast majority of people are better served by longer battery runtime. The need to maintain that second battery charge is something that you have to keep up on, and if you don't you have a $150 brick.
Oh c'mon. “Device made for traveling” is Macbook Air, —weightless and with over 10h life. Not a monster with swappable batteries
Still? It never will be because Apple tries to make MacBooks as small as possible.
When my volvo died on the freeway, the "fix" was to replace the engine control unit, not some part of that computer.
This would be like complaining that just because you could replace the MMU on a Mac II in 1988, apple screwed you over by using a 68030 with on board MMU.
1. car 2. LCD TV 3. stereo 4. every other piece of electronics made after 2006 or so
They are just to complex anymore and I just do not care.
Still. Some don't care.
Look, if you do not like a product then do not buy it. That is the way it works. Apple makes higher priced higher quality kit and they charge for it. If you are not willing to pay for that then buy something else. If the world agrees with you then they will start to loose sales and change the thing that bugged you. I for one have no issues paying for the level of quality and service I get from Apple. In the life time of the device I buy that extra 10% just does not really matter.
I do think that glued in memory is a dumb thing. Memory is almost like a consumable and prices tend to vary dramatically within the service life of a laptop. Bigger chips come out, prices drop, etc. If 1% of the population is capable of doing a trackpad or screen replacement, 15% are capable of doing a ram upgrade.
Also your needs change. I never did video editing, ever -- then we had a baby. That new need drove me to upgrade my 2008 iMac, as it just didn't have the juice. Memory is different, there are lots of elegant ways to approach that problem without compromising the design aesthetic -- in fact Apple has done this with other computers.
Saying "buy a Ford" isn't a useful response. Apple is the sole owner of the Mac OS platform. I can buy an HP laptop, but I miss out on the value that the platform brings -- I don't want Windows or Linux.
However, the high-end model also has a GT 750M, so would presumably be almost identical to the previous model.