Founder/CEO here. This data is from hundreds of thousands of offers made by dealers on CarWoo! This is likely one of the purest sources of new car pricing anywhere. Would love to answer any questions.
I had a 170lb St. Bernard at one point and she sort fit into a subaru outback. This was a while ago.
Fitting a 200lb dog is a matter of perspective too. What do you mean by fitting? I have a 100lb dog right now and he fits into my crv just fine, but he fits into our Odyssey a lot better. He can lie completely spread out, doesn't have to curl up, etc.
Sites that have tried to do things like this in the past have been very cumbersome and ultimately unuseful.
You need to decide if you dog can fit into a compact SUV or if you need a medium sized SUV/crossover. There is a big difference in size/mpg/and cost between those two categories of vehicle.
If you want a compact SUV look at ford edge/subaru forester or outback/mazda CX-5/toyota rav4/honda CRV or subaru tribecca on the compact, but larger size. The CRV will have your best real world mpgs there, but gives up a lot in power.
If you get into larger crossover/SUVs you should look at the honda Pilot/toyota highlander-4runner/subaru tribeca/mazda cx-9/ford explorer or flex (if you don't care about off road at all).
The problem is they all have their good and bad things and some of the stylings are way off. Also, reported mpgs and real life mpgs are sometimes very different. The best thing to do is to troll user forums for these vehicles and learn as much as you can. Good luck!
I've actually had an idea for something like this for a number of years (I used to work for ClickMotive) but it's so very hard to gather this data.
The use cases that lead to my thought were:
- what cars on the market, both new and used in the last 4 years, offer a 3rd row of seating?
- what cars offer a big enough back seat for two rear facing car seats and a twin stroller? (far fewer than you'd believe)
Edmunds tells me what invoice is, what MSRP is, and what most people end up paying for each of the trim levels. I don't see much information on CarWoo, other than for the base model.
What we're doing is looking at the actual MSRP offered by dealers on vehicles in inventory inclusive of options. On Edmunds, KBB or any other pricing site what you're looking at is what you theoretically would pay if the vehicle you wanted existed in inventory and doesn't really represent true pricing at the moment. Their pricing isn't really representative of what happens when you go to a dealership and say I want this car, with these options. Many/most times that exact configuration of vehicle doesn't exist. (With a few exceptions... Honda's and Toyotas are different). Our AVG MSRP is really a view of the price with options included in dealer inventory and not just the MSRP as configured by the manufacturer. What people have told us is that they want to know how much it's actually going to cost me when I go to the dealership to buy a Mazda 5 (enter your favorite car here) . Our pricing reflects that almost perfectly.
Site layout is clean and effective. The "Most Discounted X" takes into account the largest retail to selling price differential but displays the percentage instead of the price.
This caused an immediate disconnect when I looked up the price of the Ford Explorer. The discount percentage averages out to 10.4% but the Infiniti is instead shown on the front page at with a 7.1% discount.
Also, I would add a "by Discount %" sort to the table, since that is a sexy driving factor in how I process the page information.
Is there anything close to CarWoo for the used car market?
I recently purchased a three year old car, and when researching how car dealerships work, it seems like the pricing for used cars is substantially different than new cars, making used cars much harder to make sense of.
With new cars, you're dealing numbers that aren't impossible to come buy -- MSRP, dealer invoice, holdback, buyer incentives, and dealer incentives. With very few assumptions, it seems like you can figure out approximately how much money a dealer stands to make off your purchase (not including upsells or finance incentives) and you can figure out their bottom line, which improves your bargaining power.
With used cars, from what I've gathered, dealers are buying these things from off-lease auctions and then use some sort of networked system that changes used-car pricing in real-time. But the pricing is still all over the place from dealer to dealer and the amount of money paid by the dealer at auction is completely unknown.
When I negotiated my car, I did a simple search of the +/- 1 year, make and model in a 100 mile radius of real ASKING prices (not pricing guides like Edmunds or Blue Book, who, by the way, the dealer was VERY quick to start quoting because they're quoting prices in the dealer's favor). The spread was nearly $10,000 and even isolating mileage to a smaller range produced a spread of several thousand dollars.
I wanted to test out negotiating techniques when I actually went in to buy, so the first day, I negotiated through several rounds, finally landing on my bottom-line price and it was soundly rejected without the "sales manager" even bothering to meet me. During negotiations, I presented no data to back up my price, but was claiming to have done the research.
I went in the next day and I brought in actual print outs from other dealers, took a lower-end price, marked it up a bit, told them that it was a reasonable price and from my estimates they'd still be making reasonable money off of it. If that deal wasn't accepted, I had alternative dealers to work with and would also consider other brands (this tactic, I thought, was good because the brand wants to rope in younger buyers to try and turn them into lifelong customers). They accepted it without any substantial pushback and it was less than the price they had refused to accept the previous day.
Thanks for the link. I think with the substantial increased popularity of leased vehicles since the article, the idea that used cars are mostly bad cars isn't as on-point as it may have been. Most "newer" used cars, which most financial people tell you are the best deals, are cars that have come off of original leases, not vehicles that were fully purchased and traded back in.
Cars are also higher quality and many dealers offer certified pre-owned warranties that would cover most issues for some time.
But overall, the idea of information asymmetries in the used car market is dead on. There is some data like Black Book pricing, but since the costs are derived from auction prices, which I have to assume are done in the open, even with restricted access, I'm still surprised there isn't some better cost data published like with new cars.
How is it different from eBay Motors? Most of the cars have free carfax, they have cheaper pricing to get the car history and I am covered by eBay buyer protection [1].
If it says no CarWoo dealers in my area, do I get any benefit out of going through the CarWoo dealer contact interface? Or am I essentially just going through the service to give local dealers the ability to call me whenever they want?
Not trying to be negative but this data compares MSRP to carwoo price, but no one buys at MSRP anyway.
The data that would have been valuable in showing the value of carwoo is how its price compares to what non carwoo buyers who negotiate on their own pay, or even the no-haggle fleet pricing which is available via AAA, Costco and others.
I recently used Car Woo as part of my car buying process. I wouldn't rely upon these numbers or those from TrueCar, Edmunds, etc. I have been using my bank's car buying service, TrueCar, and direct emailing of dealers. New Car pricing is highly variable on the dealer, dealer's stock, sales, per-dealer deals from, hold back, quota-bonuses, per salesman specific bonuses etc.
It is important to remember that a middleman service operates either on a flat fee or a commission. This is money the dealer cannot use to negotiate down with you. I do not know CarWoo's sales structure, but TrueCar makes 300-400[1][2] per sale. So if this is data based on CarWoo deals it will not reflect the best deals, because the cars all had to include this price. Now, that said most people are not prepared or comfortable buying a car or negotiating. Given that you get some degree of anonymity and can haggle back and forth online is nice and you are paying for the convenience. Many people will likely save more money than if they tried to do it on their own.
This is an application of the wisdom of crowds to determine a market price. It is a good indication of what the market is willing to pay, but not the best deal you can get. Savings as a representation of MSRP are misleading; think about how many things you buy off the shelf and the price is usually much less than MSRP for any number of per-store pricing or sales, coupons, etc. Car buying is no different.
In the case of the model I am looking for, the CarWoo price is close to the two offers I got on CarWoo, but the offers I got directly or through my bank are much lower( Best Direct quote I received was through my Bank's no haggle direct car buying service, which is about 7% lower than the CarWoo average).
Mean averages on their own are not very helpful in evaluating offers, perhaps if we saw a distribution or standard deviation? Prices over time (later in the model year should higher prices be used in the average, are they still relevant or should they at least be weighted?) would also be good for the car buyer.
I also have a hard time believing CarWoo would publish this information if it were not in the best interest of their customers (the dealers, car buyers are the product). Therefore, I would be lead to believe that this data only serves to keep buyers from trying to negotiate lower rates based on the average. Then again, maybe a tech startup has not yet considered this and just thought it would be cool to share data and be transparent.
It's a cool service and it's probably a good fit for many people. You could also just create a new email address and use a google voice number for privacy reasons. At any rate, I would advise you to do your research and try every tactic and service you can to optimize your wallet spent and time spend.
Tried Car Woo for the first time a few weeks ago when we were ready to buy a new car and was quite disappointed. I thought it'd be a revolutionary way to not deal with scummy dealerships and I ended up getting 1 shitty offer (total).
That was it. No communication from CarWoo, no tips on how to get more offers. Just a scummy offer from yet another typical car sales guy.
Having now gone through the new car buying process, I can confidently say that it is "ripe for disruption" and somebody needs to level the playing field.
26 comments
[ 1.9 ms ] story [ 47.5 ms ] threadIf only car sites alllowed for this sort of discovery process!
Fitting a 200lb dog is a matter of perspective too. What do you mean by fitting? I have a 100lb dog right now and he fits into my crv just fine, but he fits into our Odyssey a lot better. He can lie completely spread out, doesn't have to curl up, etc.
Sites that have tried to do things like this in the past have been very cumbersome and ultimately unuseful.
You need to decide if you dog can fit into a compact SUV or if you need a medium sized SUV/crossover. There is a big difference in size/mpg/and cost between those two categories of vehicle.
If you want a compact SUV look at ford edge/subaru forester or outback/mazda CX-5/toyota rav4/honda CRV or subaru tribecca on the compact, but larger size. The CRV will have your best real world mpgs there, but gives up a lot in power.
If you get into larger crossover/SUVs you should look at the honda Pilot/toyota highlander-4runner/subaru tribeca/mazda cx-9/ford explorer or flex (if you don't care about off road at all).
The problem is they all have their good and bad things and some of the stylings are way off. Also, reported mpgs and real life mpgs are sometimes very different. The best thing to do is to troll user forums for these vehicles and learn as much as you can. Good luck!
The use cases that lead to my thought were: - what cars on the market, both new and used in the last 4 years, offer a 3rd row of seating? - what cars offer a big enough back seat for two rear facing car seats and a twin stroller? (far fewer than you'd believe)
https://carwoo.com/new-car-prices/M80025559-2013-mercedes-be...
4 Door Sedan S550 RWD
AVG MSRP $102,604
AVG PRICE $421,414
AVG DISCOUNT -290.0%
How are you getting an average price of 421k?
http://carwoo.com/new-car-prices/T85363842-2014-mazda-mx-5-m...
Versus
http://www.edmunds.com/mazda/mx-5-miata/2014/?style=20048458...
Edmunds tells me what invoice is, what MSRP is, and what most people end up paying for each of the trim levels. I don't see much information on CarWoo, other than for the base model.
This caused an immediate disconnect when I looked up the price of the Ford Explorer. The discount percentage averages out to 10.4% but the Infiniti is instead shown on the front page at with a 7.1% discount.
Also, I would add a "by Discount %" sort to the table, since that is a sexy driving factor in how I process the page information.
Hope this helps!
I recently purchased a three year old car, and when researching how car dealerships work, it seems like the pricing for used cars is substantially different than new cars, making used cars much harder to make sense of.
With new cars, you're dealing numbers that aren't impossible to come buy -- MSRP, dealer invoice, holdback, buyer incentives, and dealer incentives. With very few assumptions, it seems like you can figure out approximately how much money a dealer stands to make off your purchase (not including upsells or finance incentives) and you can figure out their bottom line, which improves your bargaining power.
With used cars, from what I've gathered, dealers are buying these things from off-lease auctions and then use some sort of networked system that changes used-car pricing in real-time. But the pricing is still all over the place from dealer to dealer and the amount of money paid by the dealer at auction is completely unknown.
When I negotiated my car, I did a simple search of the +/- 1 year, make and model in a 100 mile radius of real ASKING prices (not pricing guides like Edmunds or Blue Book, who, by the way, the dealer was VERY quick to start quoting because they're quoting prices in the dealer's favor). The spread was nearly $10,000 and even isolating mileage to a smaller range produced a spread of several thousand dollars.
I wanted to test out negotiating techniques when I actually went in to buy, so the first day, I negotiated through several rounds, finally landing on my bottom-line price and it was soundly rejected without the "sales manager" even bothering to meet me. During negotiations, I presented no data to back up my price, but was claiming to have done the research.
I went in the next day and I brought in actual print outs from other dealers, took a lower-end price, marked it up a bit, told them that it was a reasonable price and from my estimates they'd still be making reasonable money off of it. If that deal wasn't accepted, I had alternative dealers to work with and would also consider other brands (this tactic, I thought, was good because the brand wants to rope in younger buyers to try and turn them into lifelong customers). They accepted it without any substantial pushback and it was less than the price they had refused to accept the previous day.
Cars are also higher quality and many dealers offer certified pre-owned warranties that would cover most issues for some time.
But overall, the idea of information asymmetries in the used car market is dead on. There is some data like Black Book pricing, but since the costs are derived from auction prices, which I have to assume are done in the open, even with restricted access, I'm still surprised there isn't some better cost data published like with new cars.
eBay Motors: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-Accord-EX-2008-honda-accord-ex...
Carwoo: http://carwoo.com/new-car-prices/T85363842-2014-mazda-mx-5-m...
[1]: http://pages.ebay.com/motors/buy/purchase-protection/index.h...
Looks like the "I prefer to be contacted through email" selection is broken...
Or
NYC area car dealers are extremely pushy and brazenly ignore said request...
;)
The data that would have been valuable in showing the value of carwoo is how its price compares to what non carwoo buyers who negotiate on their own pay, or even the no-haggle fleet pricing which is available via AAA, Costco and others.
It is important to remember that a middleman service operates either on a flat fee or a commission. This is money the dealer cannot use to negotiate down with you. I do not know CarWoo's sales structure, but TrueCar makes 300-400[1][2] per sale. So if this is data based on CarWoo deals it will not reflect the best deals, because the cars all had to include this price. Now, that said most people are not prepared or comfortable buying a car or negotiating. Given that you get some degree of anonymity and can haggle back and forth online is nice and you are paying for the convenience. Many people will likely save more money than if they tried to do it on their own.
This is an application of the wisdom of crowds to determine a market price. It is a good indication of what the market is willing to pay, but not the best deal you can get. Savings as a representation of MSRP are misleading; think about how many things you buy off the shelf and the price is usually much less than MSRP for any number of per-store pricing or sales, coupons, etc. Car buying is no different.
In the case of the model I am looking for, the CarWoo price is close to the two offers I got on CarWoo, but the offers I got directly or through my bank are much lower( Best Direct quote I received was through my Bank's no haggle direct car buying service, which is about 7% lower than the CarWoo average).
Mean averages on their own are not very helpful in evaluating offers, perhaps if we saw a distribution or standard deviation? Prices over time (later in the model year should higher prices be used in the average, are they still relevant or should they at least be weighted?) would also be good for the car buyer.
I also have a hard time believing CarWoo would publish this information if it were not in the best interest of their customers (the dealers, car buyers are the product). Therefore, I would be lead to believe that this data only serves to keep buyers from trying to negotiate lower rates based on the average. Then again, maybe a tech startup has not yet considered this and just thought it would be cool to share data and be transparent.
It's a cool service and it's probably a good fit for many people. You could also just create a new email address and use a google voice number for privacy reasons. At any rate, I would advise you to do your research and try every tactic and service you can to optimize your wallet spent and time spend.
[1] http://www.dealerelite.net/profiles/blogs/true-car-and-zag-c... [2] http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/12/truecar-versus-hond...
That was it. No communication from CarWoo, no tips on how to get more offers. Just a scummy offer from yet another typical car sales guy.
Having now gone through the new car buying process, I can confidently say that it is "ripe for disruption" and somebody needs to level the playing field.