"Asked about the spying revelations in a separate interview, Abbott said: "To use the term spying, it's kind of loaded language … researching maybe. Talking to people. Understanding what's going on.""
No, that's just Tony Abbott. Expect more hilarity in the years (days?) to come. If you can't wait, just Google some of his past statements. If you like prejudice, two-dimensional thinking and more meaningless rhetoric than you can shake a stick at, then you're going to love Tony Abbott.
Let's see where he can take a country that ranked #2 on the Human Development Index and the highest of 34 countries on the OECD Better Life index. Should be interesting, considering he was voted in by the "Aussie battlers" who were enjoying a better quality of life than they've ever experienced in Australian history (notice Australia doesn't move on the HDI even when you account for inequality? The US sure does, from #3 to #16). Should be great when, under the Trans-Pacific Partnership he sells out to the US to trade a few horses [1] and our healthcare/pharmaceutical industry emulates the American system. Good times ahead.
[1] "there's always horse-trading in these negotiations, but in the end … everyone is better off" - Tony Abbot, November 14, 2013
If I think pessimistically, between the TPP, NBN and carbon "tax", this government could do 50+ years worth of damage to Australia's economy, not to mention damage to reputation.
There's any number of controversial bills that could trigger a Double Dissolution. The near doubling of the debt ceiling is one, though I expect Hockey to capitulate and take the 400 billion option.
Clive Palmer's senate team are the ones to watch as they will be key in blocking the passage of any supply bills.
Worth noting that the spying incident occurred in April 2009, which was under the leadership of Kevin Rudd... who would have been Prime Minister if Abbott hadn't won. Voting the other way may not have reduced the impact of this incident at all.
I think all we can do is stop looking to government to solve everything for us. Work on your own sphere of influence, what you can improve yourself. All sides of politics are failing Australia right now, maybe it's better to just bypass government wherever you can, do things yourself or work with the people who can do things directly.
I for one, am leaving. Wasn't born here anyway, if I'm not careful they'll consider me fishing in the river in my tinny "illegal boat person", etc. sigh. What happened? :(
Globalisation of western politics? IDK but I feel like every single country is trying to emulate each other; Particularly America. I personally would like to leave but because of the absurd immigration policies of the countries I'd prefer, I cannot afford to leave or scared to go through some arduous transfer.
Why does everything have to have this bureaucratic boloney in the way?
I just want to be somewhere that doesn't have some group thinking they are at war with some people for some reason. So they then can repress/punish/victimise them for some form of gain (power, greed, jealousy, stupidity, etc). All the while they do this under the guise of their morality to protect their people.
Are we supposed to be surprised at this? Appalled? Impressed? Isn't it normal for countries to spy on each other? What do we think intelligence agencies do?
I'm Australian, so I'm probably biased, but the relationship between the two countries is complex, and layered. And it's definitely not a case of yes salah.
And if you think the Indonesians didn't know we were spying on them (and they probably on us), then there's a bridge I can sell you...
>I'm Australian, so I'm probably biased, but the relationship between the two countries is complex, and layered.
How's that making any difference to the matter? Colonial powers' relations with their colonies were "complex and layered" too.
>And if you think the Indonesians didn't know we were spying on them (and they probably on us), then there's a bridge I can sell you...
Again, what difference does it makes if they knew? A local power (and a US lackey) spies on them, and they know it. Is that much better than if they didn't know it?
It's not like you don't get to enjoy the benefits of spying, blackmailing, upper hand in trade negotiations, etc because they know or suspect you're spying.
And it's not like an (essentially) third world country had any major benefits by their feeble attempts at spying at you themselves...
n an extraordinary admission Indonesia says it bugged Australia’s embassy in Jakarta during the East Timor crisis and has tried to recruit Australians as spies.
Retiring Indonesian intelligence chief General Abdullah Mahmud Hendropriyono has claimed his agency tapped Australian civil and military communications and politicians’ phone calls.
His agency’s attempt to recruit Australians to spy for Indonesia had been unsuccessful, he said…
Hendropriyono, who headed the Badan Intelijen Negara under president Megawati Soekarnoputri’s government, said it was well known that governments tapped each other’s communications and Indonesia had much evidence its embassies abroad were bugged.
“Here, also, we did the same thing. We want to know what is really discussed about us,” he told Sunday .
“We can say this is a public secret. You know, secret but the whole public knows. This is quite common intelligence activity.”
We find Indonesia’s political system opaque, riddled with corruption and prone to nationalist outbursts. We don’t regard Indonesia as true friends (certainly not in the way, for example, we view New Zealand or our other “Five Eyes” partners) and we don’t rule out the possibility that someday, perhaps in the distant future, they may be a threat…
Thirdly, Indonesia is also how to muslim extremists. I think we would want to spy on them considering they have repeatedly attacked Australians:
12 October 2002 — The coordinated bomb attacks occurred on in the tourist district of Kuta, Bali. The attack was claimed as the deadliest act of terrorism in the history of Indonesia according to the current police general, killing 202 people, (including 88 Australians, and 38 Indonesian citizens).
5 August 2003 — A suicide bomber detonated a car bomb outside the lobby of the JW Marriott Hotel, killing twelve people and injuring 150. The hotel located on Mega Kuningan, South Jakarta, Indonesia. All those killed were Indonesian with the exception of one Dutch businessman, one Danish, and two Chinese tourists.
9 September 2004 — A one-tonne car bomb which was packed into a small delivery van, exploded outside the Australian embassy at Kuningan District, South Jakarta, at about 10:30 local time (03:30 UTC), killing 9 people including the suicide bomber, and wounding over 150 others.
1 October 2005 — Series of suicide bomb and a series of car bombs exploded at two sites in Jimbaran Beach Resort and in Kuta, Bali. The terrorist attack claimed the lives of 20 people and injured more than 100 others. The three bombers also died in the attacks
17 July 2009 — The JW Marriott and Ritz-Carlton Hotels in Jakarta, were hit by separate suicide bombings five minutes apart. Three of the seven victims who were killed were Australians, two from the Netherlands, and one each from New Zealand and Indonesia. More than 50 people were injured in the blasts.
I am not sure what is there that this makes a news (and that too on HN). Spying is a very old tool in the art of statecraft. It is neither inherently immoral nor illegal.
Even when we show outrage against NSA's snooping program, the only valid argument is that NSA perhaps can not snoop on American citizens as per the 4th amendment.
The only locus standi that we as tech people can have is that we should focus building on technologies that are more and more government proof and beneficial to the tech community and government. We should fight tooth and nail with any attempts by government that might force us to put backdoors, bugs and deliberate vulnerabilities which can ease any governments job.
I wouldn't say that Indonesia is a smaller nation than Australia, and by GDP ranked by countries they appear close to each other.
Australia has had a strange relationship with Indonesia, for example Whitlam's involvement in Indonesia and Australia's involvement in Timor.
The most recent interaction has been the people smugglers and the Bali bombings.
So even though I am skeptical on countries spying on their citizens, the reason Australia spies on Indonesia ( and probably vis versa ), may be for very relevant reasons.
> I am not sure what is there that this makes a news
This is not news for all the initiated. It is news for the general population that is not aware of the extend that current spying takes. This also makes it important news for the general population since secret services undermine fundamental principles of democracy: Transparency and accountability. All revelations in the wake of Snowdens leak show that secret services around the world try to extend their capabilities and at the same time evade their responsibilities to report correctly to their government appointed controllers - be it the senate or the bundestag or whatever you call it in your country.
Also, spying is illegal, namely by the laws of the country you're spying on. It's also immoral, at least in the cases where your president signed a treaty promising not to spy and still, someone obviously ignored that agreement.
> Even when we show outrage against NSA's snooping program, the only valid argument is that NSA perhaps can not snoop on American citizens as per the 4th amendment.
The much better argument is maybe that while it's technically not illegal, the cost-benefit analysis shows a net negative. Circumvention of legal checks and balances is another one. Just because some action may be legal doesn't make it a good thing in all cases - see ciscos latest losses.
Whether it's moral surely depends on whether you think people have a right to private communication. If you think it's immoral for someone to monitor your personal communications, then someone monitoring Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono's phone is surely immoral too.
I don't buy that it's someone less immoral because the stakes are higher.
30 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 68.5 ms ] threadhttp://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/20...
Is this the onion?
Let's see where he can take a country that ranked #2 on the Human Development Index and the highest of 34 countries on the OECD Better Life index. Should be interesting, considering he was voted in by the "Aussie battlers" who were enjoying a better quality of life than they've ever experienced in Australian history (notice Australia doesn't move on the HDI even when you account for inequality? The US sure does, from #3 to #16). Should be great when, under the Trans-Pacific Partnership he sells out to the US to trade a few horses [1] and our healthcare/pharmaceutical industry emulates the American system. Good times ahead.
[1] "there's always horse-trading in these negotiations, but in the end … everyone is better off" - Tony Abbot, November 14, 2013
What can we do?
Clive Palmer's senate team are the ones to watch as they will be key in blocking the passage of any supply bills.
I think all we can do is stop looking to government to solve everything for us. Work on your own sphere of influence, what you can improve yourself. All sides of politics are failing Australia right now, maybe it's better to just bypass government wherever you can, do things yourself or work with the people who can do things directly.
He's incredible repugnant & stupid. It is definitely damning when someone like him actually could get elected. What a time to live in...
I just want to be somewhere that doesn't have some group thinking they are at war with some people for some reason. So they then can repress/punish/victimise them for some form of gain (power, greed, jealousy, stupidity, etc). All the while they do this under the guise of their morality to protect their people.
A man can dream.
Are we supposed to be surprised at this? Appalled? Impressed? Isn't it normal for countries to spy on each other? What do we think intelligence agencies do?
Bad acts aren't justified by being normal. If anything, it means the problem is systemic and therefore needs to be dealt with even more urgently.
(And an inability to use www.google.com... - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia%E2%80%93Indonesia_rel...)
I'm Australian, so I'm probably biased, but the relationship between the two countries is complex, and layered. And it's definitely not a case of yes salah.
And if you think the Indonesians didn't know we were spying on them (and they probably on us), then there's a bridge I can sell you...
How's that making any difference to the matter? Colonial powers' relations with their colonies were "complex and layered" too.
>And if you think the Indonesians didn't know we were spying on them (and they probably on us), then there's a bridge I can sell you...
Again, what difference does it makes if they knew? A local power (and a US lackey) spies on them, and they know it. Is that much better than if they didn't know it?
It's not like you don't get to enjoy the benefits of spying, blackmailing, upper hand in trade negotiations, etc because they know or suspect you're spying.
And it's not like an (essentially) third world country had any major benefits by their feeble attempts at spying at you themselves...
From http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/11/14/1100384426722.h...
n an extraordinary admission Indonesia says it bugged Australia’s embassy in Jakarta during the East Timor crisis and has tried to recruit Australians as spies.
Retiring Indonesian intelligence chief General Abdullah Mahmud Hendropriyono has claimed his agency tapped Australian civil and military communications and politicians’ phone calls.
His agency’s attempt to recruit Australians to spy for Indonesia had been unsuccessful, he said…
Hendropriyono, who headed the Badan Intelijen Negara under president Megawati Soekarnoputri’s government, said it was well known that governments tapped each other’s communications and Indonesia had much evidence its embassies abroad were bugged.
“Here, also, we did the same thing. We want to know what is really discussed about us,” he told Sunday .
“We can say this is a public secret. You know, secret but the whole public knows. This is quite common intelligence activity.”
Should Australia really stick its head in the sand? Secondly, there are many good reasons why we would want to spy on them, from http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/can...:
Canberra just doesn’t trust Jakarta…
We find Indonesia’s political system opaque, riddled with corruption and prone to nationalist outbursts. We don’t regard Indonesia as true friends (certainly not in the way, for example, we view New Zealand or our other “Five Eyes” partners) and we don’t rule out the possibility that someday, perhaps in the distant future, they may be a threat…
Thirdly, Indonesia is also how to muslim extremists. I think we would want to spy on them considering they have repeatedly attacked Australians:
12 October 2002 — The coordinated bomb attacks occurred on in the tourist district of Kuta, Bali. The attack was claimed as the deadliest act of terrorism in the history of Indonesia according to the current police general, killing 202 people, (including 88 Australians, and 38 Indonesian citizens).
5 August 2003 — A suicide bomber detonated a car bomb outside the lobby of the JW Marriott Hotel, killing twelve people and injuring 150. The hotel located on Mega Kuningan, South Jakarta, Indonesia. All those killed were Indonesian with the exception of one Dutch businessman, one Danish, and two Chinese tourists.
9 September 2004 — A one-tonne car bomb which was packed into a small delivery van, exploded outside the Australian embassy at Kuningan District, South Jakarta, at about 10:30 local time (03:30 UTC), killing 9 people including the suicide bomber, and wounding over 150 others.
1 October 2005 — Series of suicide bomb and a series of car bombs exploded at two sites in Jimbaran Beach Resort and in Kuta, Bali. The terrorist attack claimed the lives of 20 people and injured more than 100 others. The three bombers also died in the attacks
17 July 2009 — The JW Marriott and Ritz-Carlton Hotels in Jakarta, were hit by separate suicide bombings five minutes apart. Three of the seven victims who were killed were Australians, two from the Netherlands, and one each from New Zealand and Indonesia. More than 50 people were injured in the blasts.
Even when we show outrage against NSA's snooping program, the only valid argument is that NSA perhaps can not snoop on American citizens as per the 4th amendment.
The only locus standi that we as tech people can have is that we should focus building on technologies that are more and more government proof and beneficial to the tech community and government. We should fight tooth and nail with any attempts by government that might force us to put backdoors, bugs and deliberate vulnerabilities which can ease any governments job.
Torture and genocide are also very old tools in the 'art' of statecraft, so that's not much of an endorsement.
If the supporters of this stuff are really down to 'well everybody does it', perhaps that's a sign that it's really just bad behavior.
Australia has had a strange relationship with Indonesia, for example Whitlam's involvement in Indonesia and Australia's involvement in Timor.
The most recent interaction has been the people smugglers and the Bali bombings.
So even though I am skeptical on countries spying on their citizens, the reason Australia spies on Indonesia ( and probably vis versa ), may be for very relevant reasons.
This is not news for all the initiated. It is news for the general population that is not aware of the extend that current spying takes. This also makes it important news for the general population since secret services undermine fundamental principles of democracy: Transparency and accountability. All revelations in the wake of Snowdens leak show that secret services around the world try to extend their capabilities and at the same time evade their responsibilities to report correctly to their government appointed controllers - be it the senate or the bundestag or whatever you call it in your country.
Also, spying is illegal, namely by the laws of the country you're spying on. It's also immoral, at least in the cases where your president signed a treaty promising not to spy and still, someone obviously ignored that agreement.
> Even when we show outrage against NSA's snooping program, the only valid argument is that NSA perhaps can not snoop on American citizens as per the 4th amendment.
The much better argument is maybe that while it's technically not illegal, the cost-benefit analysis shows a net negative. Circumvention of legal checks and balances is another one. Just because some action may be legal doesn't make it a good thing in all cases - see ciscos latest losses.
Whether it's moral surely depends on whether you think people have a right to private communication. If you think it's immoral for someone to monitor your personal communications, then someone monitoring Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono's phone is surely immoral too.
I don't buy that it's someone less immoral because the stakes are higher.