I do not use short Internet "slangs." I type as correct as I can --which can be difficult while using english, as it is not my mother tongue. The lack of proper capitalization and punctuation irks me, it does not matter the medium.
attempting to be helpful: it should be 'as correctly as I can' because 'correct' is an adjective and not an adverb ('*I type correct' is not grammatical, 'I type correctly' and 'My typing is correct' are both grammatical).
also, it should be 'teenage child' not 'teenager child' because teenager is a noun, not an adjective (you can also say just 'My teenager follows my path').
I honestly had no idea this was a phenomenon and I'm part of the demographic which is ostensibly supposed to be aware of these new nuances in texted language.
I have a very inconsistent typing style when on IM or IRC, but I've never really seen anyone respond differently because of subtle punctuation differences like adding or omitting periods from the end of a sentence.
I don't deny that this is a real occurrence, but it seems quite ridiculous. The "because [noun]" thing at least has practical use in conveying implicit meaning through brevity.
Wow, that is strange. I must be old, but I sometimes interpret the exact opposite: a sentence without a period must have a twinge of... bitterness? sarcasm? lack of care?
Comments here currently call this strange. I personally thought this was common knowledge, and it's not a new thing, either. I own a large video game IRC community and we've used periods for this purpose as long as I can remember (since ~2001? it's a bit fuzzy...) "fine." is about as passive-aggressive as it gets. TFA is spot on about line breaks being the new periods, as well.
It's also a bit odd when people use capitalization beyond "I"--one of the best ways to tell newer users from older users.
I feel so weird dropping by, say, freenode, where the customs are so different.
(EDIT: Since people here are mentioning age, for the record, I am soon to be 26)
I feel so old now. I always capitalize every IM or SMS I write and I try to make the punctuation as correct as possible. By that I mean that I don't stop at using the full stop as required, but also worry about commas, colons, semi-colons and even dashes. I'm also "guilty" of having read "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" by Lynne Truss and agreeing with it.
It's not fair that being almost 35 I should feel so old, is it? ;-)
I'm with you there, I'm pretty anal about keeping my texts as correct as possible. Proper grammar, capitalization, and spelling make messages so much easier to read and comprehend, so why wouldn't you take the extra few seconds to make sure they're correctly formatted? Especially these days, when your phone will auto-correct mistakes for you!
I much prefer communicating without capital letters. I have a hand injury and I find any extra keystrokes to be annoying.
For IRC or chat, it doesn't make sense to use capitalization or most punctuation. The beginning of the line serves as a delimiter between messages; capitalization is redundant in this capacity. Likewise, the end of the line serves a similar purpose, which makes periods (generally) redundant. The addition of a period in this medium adds extra emphasis to the message, which is often interpreted as aggressiveness (hence this article).
Also, it is unfair to associate lack of capitalization with poor grammar and spelling. Poor grammar is associated with lack of education. Lack of capitalization should not be! You probably were not implying an association, but many others I have spoken to over the years have. (For some reason, I've had a lot of conversations about this stuff...)
Written communication is hard, and one of the keys to good written communication is leaving as little room for misunderstanding as possible. Using proper capitalization, spelling, and grammar are a few of the ways you can make your text more readable and less prone to misinterpretation.
That being said, there are plenty of reason to eschew writing best practices, and you have to be pragmatic about it (for your own sanity, if nothing else). Have a hand injury? Skip the shift key once in a while if it saves you some pain. You're trading readability for speed/comfort/whatever, but depending on the situation that might be the better decision.
It's a mistake to think of "correct punctuation" as some sort of abstract goal to attain. Communication is about making yourself understood, and punctuation is a means to that end. When people expect a period to mean one thing because most people use a period in that fashion then what do you accomplish by defecting from that common usage?
In meatspace you can rely on nonverbal cues, online you cannot. So if we can overload the semantics of a period and of capital letters to help compensate for the lack of nonverbal communication, all the better. Full sentences and proper grammar don't go away -- they just take on a different meaning. Clear communication is hard enough as is, why complicate matters further by limiting yourself to perfect sentences and lose out on the extra nuance?
Funny, that's precisely why I'm trying to make my punctuation correct -- to compensate for the lack of nonverbal cues. I believe that by using "proper" punctuation -- and I'll explain my idea of "proper" shortly -- I can structure my sentences in such a way as to help the reader understand the nuances of what I intended to say, instead of having the reader try to guess it while parsing my sentences. Think of it as optimization hints for a compiler ;)
Also, you'll notice that I don't hold fanatically to punctuation rules or rely on punctuation alone: for example, I use emoticons to try to convey my "tone" and if my sentence ends with an emoticon, I don't include the full stop.
As for what I believe to be "correct punctuation", I guess my definition of "correct" stems from an increasingly outdated and somewhat romantic belief that people read books ;)
My rationale is that the multitude of authors use punctuation more or less consistently, which trains readers to have a certain set of expectations. If my punctuation doesn't match their expectations, I'm more likely to provoke a miscommunication.
So it all boils out to assumptions and expectations, which is why I said I feel old: mine are outdated ;)
> why complicate matters further by limiting yourself to perfect sentences and lose out on the extra nuance?
My problem with that, and I'm sympathetic to both situations, but it seems as though the rules of proper grammar have been replaced with new rules that are less expressive than the old rules.
Sure, if the community infers a period as hostile, then clearly, one attempting to avoid seeming hostile would be wise to avoid using periods. However, why is that the case? How did it get there in the first place?
Yes, I know it's been this way for awhile, but the editor in my soul won't allow me to craft broken sentences, even where I know that they'll be more effective at communicating. Yes, I acknowledge that's a problem of mine, but I would argue that the bigger problem is that people are looking for more expressiveness by arbitrarily assigning connotation to things that otherwise bear none, while completely disregarding that there are ways to be more expressive through regular old English.
Only number 2 is correct grammatically. You can expand the list with other versions of no (nope, no-no) and with other punctuation (exclamation mark, ellipsis). There are easily 20 different versions of "no" I can think of from the top of my head. Clearly being able to pick the "no" that fits best is an expressive advantage. I agree that there are ways to express yourself precisely in correct/formal English, but it's a lot more verbose.
Language is really pliable. It's quite strange that "fuck no" offends only puritans but "uhm... no." can set off fireworks with nearly anybody. I guess we all just have to adapt.
> Language is really pliable. It's quite strange that "fuck no" offends only puritans but "uhm... no." can set off fireworks with nearly anybody.
I'd be more offended by the former than the latter, though I wouldn't be all that offended in either case.
> I guess we all just have to adapt.
I agree, if by adapt you mean we can all just chill out a little and be better listeners. I think the graph of grammatical and punctuation expectations is growing a longer tail.
There seems to be a common point of confusion in this discussion.
It isn't the case that using a period implies hostility or anything else, it's using a period in a context where it's unexpected. In other words: if you avoid using periods in most messages, then use a period, it conveys just as much information about your tone as ending with an emoticon.
If you always use a period, it's meaningless - but people don't, and therefore it has meaning in those situations.
I find this to be more true when using short phrased, singular thoughts. With shorthand being more common in IMs and texts, a single period may be a misinterpreted that they intend the entire conversation to end, not just one message.
You're confusing a spec with real-life implementation. The article is discussing the latter. The study of linguistics is separate from the study of language and grammar.
I interpret the lack of capitalization and correct punctuation as a sociopathic desire to undermine the very foundation of modern civilization--by destroying written language as a medium of communication. So in a way, I am pissed when I end a sentence with a period: I'm pissed at all the people who can't be bothered to use one. And when I use colons and em dashes, that should be interpreted as hate crimes.
> I'm gonna give up on GTA IV; I just can't get into it, especially after playing V.
You know, I've always attributed the increased frequency of semicolons in the writing of coders (my own included) to their commonness in programming languages, but I wonder if period-aversion among the tech savvy is a factor as well.
There's nothing wrong with using a period in that line instead of a semicolon, yet I would probably punctuate it the same way if I were writing it. Periods feel monotonous and final, and that can't be attributed to C-style languages alone.
A semicolon is different than a period in that it carries the connotation that the adjacent clause is a continuation or modification of the idea introduced by its immediate predecessor, not a separate thought (regarding the same topic, lest a new paragraph begin).
I don't think it has much to do with the commonality of the glyph in code, where ; usually represents a conclusion, not a continuation. It may simply be that coders and/or internet-savvy readers have more exposure to writing that utilizes semicolons and they obtain the habit by osmosis.
"Here is a lesson in creative writing. First rule: Do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites representing absolutely nothing. All they do is show you've been to college." --Kurt Vonnegut
Yes, I've heard this before. But I do find use for semicolons, and I appreciate their use in works by other authors. Kurt Vonnegut is (was) not obligated to use them.
I think a lot of us who're heavy into IRC/IM have developed this habit, but it's important to be conscious of it and recognize that the "enter key is not punctuation", as one /topic puts it. I agree that in some contexts it is more effective to write that way, but it's a habit that can come back to bite you if you do it in the wrong context.
I've always felt that the English language is somewhat ambivalent, but the construction of the language via writing is not ambivalent. To complete the idea, imagine how language is used. Certainly, we don't think in punctuation-able sentences at all times - we think in streams.
However, when constructing a logical presentation of ideas, we would think in more grammatically anatomically correct forms.
The implications of the writing are a form of protocol in my opinion, and as any good protocol requires, must be interpreted to some standard. Unfortunately, the complexity of the standard for the English language is far and above the complexity for a given programming language, and we unfortunately don't really have a linter for conversation.
Hyperbole, perhaps; but it's true at its core: people only receive meaning if they have some sort of roadmap for the symbol and the symbolized.
Why is this surprising? Punctuation's usage, rules, and meaning have always had a history of differing based on context. The most obvious and similar is the effect of punctuation in poetry.
Apparently, I'm strange in this (meaning HackerNews) group of people. I've been an avid instant messenger for several years; and, while I consistently try to have correct, or at least almost-correct punctuation in my instant messages, as well as a love for the semi-colon, I tend to finish my instant messages without a period.
I finish posts on message boards like this one with them; but, when I'm using an IM client, then period follows this article's alleged usage of meaning irritation or annoyance. Notably, this only applies to the last sentence in a message and only when the messages are between 0 and 1 paragraph. I haven't analyzed my own chat-style writing beyond a single paragraph, so I have no comment around anything beyond that.
The people I know tend to be the same, as far as I know, ending sentences without a period. We do often end them with things other than a period, though, like exclamation points, question marks or a few other group-specific symbols, such as emoticons, to make sure that it's known the message is ended and it is of a particular tone. The period is just one of those tones and that tone is almost always perceived as a sharp one, unless it is one of the group that has a rabid dedication to the period-is-end-of-sentence style.
All of that said, the people I tend to speak with also tend to have strong pet-peeves around they're/their/there, than/then and other commonly misrepresented words. They also tend to demand that people spell out whole words rather than using r for are and u for you, unless you're being ironic. Punctuation is very important to us, we have just redefined the terminating mark.
I don't think this is necessarily accurate -- you really need to have context and history with a person to determine how they use punctuation to signify tone. For instance, the person I most frequently text always uses punctuation, while I rarely do. I think it also depends on how you were introduced to messaging/texting.
What I have noticed is that the period assumes a meaning, despite the traditional syntactical one, depending on the situation.
On the article's example a period means an non-friendly way to answer (like being 'pissed'). In other cases I've noticed that the period assumes the meaning of talking seriously (since it's more formal to use it). In other cases I've also seen having the meaning of sureness (like when we end a sentence with the word 'period').
In a nutshell: the period has a meaning of completeness; what I've said ended just there. In a informal conversation, where period is not required or it's not traditionally used, using it acquires a meaning. And this meaning is completely dependent on the people and the subject involved.
I love these subtle differences in the way we communicate. I'm not only not against it, as many people are, but I also nourish it. It's more fun, more clever to do this way. Why not to say it: more humane.
The article mentions it only briefly, but the usage of ellipses (or just long strings of periods) in chat is even more fascinating to me. I once had a freelance client whose mood I could gauge by the number of dots in her Skype messages. Read this and try not to cringe:
no... that's not what we agreed to.......
It almost felt manipulative. I always imagined her sitting across the table from me, forcing an awkward silence in an attempt to make me renege.
So imagine my consternation when a friend of mine started using tons of periods in her text messages:
hey.... let's get a drink tonight..........
Interestingly, in her case, the extra periods apparently didn't mean anything. As she later explained, "that's just how I text...... not sure why.."
Amazing how much emotional weight a simple dot can carry, even when it's not intentional.
Ellipses are a really good example of a case where the meaning is much different in chat than in standard written English. My favorite is the double dot, .. , which I often use with some friends because a period seems formal or angry, whereas a double dot conveys a thought/sentence but in a more open ended sense. I wouldn't chat with someone in a professional context in that way though, and I have no idea how common that particular usage is even. I think it's kind of like handwriting where people and groups develop a style and then it becomes second nature and hard to explain.
I've wondered about the use of ellipsis in Hacker News comments, e.g. "That's quite... unusual". I guess it's supposed to indicate that the writer had to stop and think hard to find the right word, but I feel like there's some semantic meaning I'm missing. Has anyone else noticed this?
I use it (I think) to indicate not only that I had to stop and think about what word to use, but also to indicate that what I'm saying is my opinion or thoughts on the matter.
When I'm stating something factually I never do it, but when you ask if I want Pizza or Burgers, I'd say, hmmm.... Pizza sounds good :)
There is another phenomena that appears related to this. Younger americans are adopting an interrogative tone for sentences that are supposed to be statements. I really enjoyed that restaurant? The salmon was really good?
I really noticed this in my German class. There are students from various countries, and one of the students was an American girl in her early 20s. She was a nice person, but you could really see people going through the "are you telling me or asking?" confusion all the time. I think there's something deeper going on here. I don't want to wax philosophical too much, but our current culture appears suspicious of statements. As if uttering them is crass in some way. I don't claim to understand why.
63 comments
[ 4.3 ms ] story [ 112 ms ] threadMy teenager child follows my path.
Apologies if you did not want corrections.
Arya Stark: My mother served Lady Dustive for many years, my Lord. She taught me how to speak proper--properly.
2. "English" is capitalized.
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1997/06/09/1997_06_09_110_T...
I have a very inconsistent typing style when on IM or IRC, but I've never really seen anyone respond differently because of subtle punctuation differences like adding or omitting periods from the end of a sentence.
I don't deny that this is a real occurrence, but it seems quite ridiculous. The "because [noun]" thing at least has practical use in conveying implicit meaning through brevity.
It can seem very passive aggressive.
A counter-example are the McDonalds billboards that have shown up over the last year. They don't use capitalization, but still end with periods.
It's also a bit odd when people use capitalization beyond "I"--one of the best ways to tell newer users from older users.
I feel so weird dropping by, say, freenode, where the customs are so different.
(EDIT: Since people here are mentioning age, for the record, I am soon to be 26)
It's not fair that being almost 35 I should feel so old, is it? ;-)
For IRC or chat, it doesn't make sense to use capitalization or most punctuation. The beginning of the line serves as a delimiter between messages; capitalization is redundant in this capacity. Likewise, the end of the line serves a similar purpose, which makes periods (generally) redundant. The addition of a period in this medium adds extra emphasis to the message, which is often interpreted as aggressiveness (hence this article).
Also, it is unfair to associate lack of capitalization with poor grammar and spelling. Poor grammar is associated with lack of education. Lack of capitalization should not be! You probably were not implying an association, but many others I have spoken to over the years have. (For some reason, I've had a lot of conversations about this stuff...)
That being said, there are plenty of reason to eschew writing best practices, and you have to be pragmatic about it (for your own sanity, if nothing else). Have a hand injury? Skip the shift key once in a while if it saves you some pain. You're trading readability for speed/comfort/whatever, but depending on the situation that might be the better decision.
In meatspace you can rely on nonverbal cues, online you cannot. So if we can overload the semantics of a period and of capital letters to help compensate for the lack of nonverbal communication, all the better. Full sentences and proper grammar don't go away -- they just take on a different meaning. Clear communication is hard enough as is, why complicate matters further by limiting yourself to perfect sentences and lose out on the extra nuance?
Also, you'll notice that I don't hold fanatically to punctuation rules or rely on punctuation alone: for example, I use emoticons to try to convey my "tone" and if my sentence ends with an emoticon, I don't include the full stop.
As for what I believe to be "correct punctuation", I guess my definition of "correct" stems from an increasingly outdated and somewhat romantic belief that people read books ;)
My rationale is that the multitude of authors use punctuation more or less consistently, which trains readers to have a certain set of expectations. If my punctuation doesn't match their expectations, I'm more likely to provoke a miscommunication.
So it all boils out to assumptions and expectations, which is why I said I feel old: mine are outdated ;)
My problem with that, and I'm sympathetic to both situations, but it seems as though the rules of proper grammar have been replaced with new rules that are less expressive than the old rules.
Sure, if the community infers a period as hostile, then clearly, one attempting to avoid seeming hostile would be wise to avoid using periods. However, why is that the case? How did it get there in the first place?
Yes, I know it's been this way for awhile, but the editor in my soul won't allow me to craft broken sentences, even where I know that they'll be more effective at communicating. Yes, I acknowledge that's a problem of mine, but I would argue that the bigger problem is that people are looking for more expressiveness by arbitrarily assigning connotation to things that otherwise bear none, while completely disregarding that there are ways to be more expressive through regular old English.
2. No.
3. no.
4. No
5. no
Only number 2 is correct grammatically. You can expand the list with other versions of no (nope, no-no) and with other punctuation (exclamation mark, ellipsis). There are easily 20 different versions of "no" I can think of from the top of my head. Clearly being able to pick the "no" that fits best is an expressive advantage. I agree that there are ways to express yourself precisely in correct/formal English, but it's a lot more verbose.
Language is really pliable. It's quite strange that "fuck no" offends only puritans but "uhm... no." can set off fireworks with nearly anybody. I guess we all just have to adapt.
I'd be more offended by the former than the latter, though I wouldn't be all that offended in either case.
> I guess we all just have to adapt.
I agree, if by adapt you mean we can all just chill out a little and be better listeners. I think the graph of grammatical and punctuation expectations is growing a longer tail.
It isn't the case that using a period implies hostility or anything else, it's using a period in a context where it's unexpected. In other words: if you avoid using periods in most messages, then use a period, it conveys just as much information about your tone as ending with an emoticon.
If you always use a period, it's meaningless - but people don't, and therefore it has meaning in those situations.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/07/07
(and http://www.penny-arcade.com/archive/results/search&keywords=... )
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/09/02
Definitely a pissed-off period.
Did not know that when clicked.
"k." being the worst offender imo.
You know, I've always attributed the increased frequency of semicolons in the writing of coders (my own included) to their commonness in programming languages, but I wonder if period-aversion among the tech savvy is a factor as well.
There's nothing wrong with using a period in that line instead of a semicolon, yet I would probably punctuate it the same way if I were writing it. Periods feel monotonous and final, and that can't be attributed to C-style languages alone.
I don't think it has much to do with the commonality of the glyph in code, where ; usually represents a conclusion, not a continuation. It may simply be that coders and/or internet-savvy readers have more exposure to writing that utilizes semicolons and they obtain the habit by osmosis.
And I've never been to college.
I'm gonna give up on GTA IV - I just can't get into it - especially after playing V
However, when constructing a logical presentation of ideas, we would think in more grammatically anatomically correct forms.
The implications of the writing are a form of protocol in my opinion, and as any good protocol requires, must be interpreted to some standard. Unfortunately, the complexity of the standard for the English language is far and above the complexity for a given programming language, and we unfortunately don't really have a linter for conversation.
Hyperbole, perhaps; but it's true at its core: people only receive meaning if they have some sort of roadmap for the symbol and the symbolized.
http://www.brigitsflame.com/litlib/stylistic-suggestions/rie...
I finish posts on message boards like this one with them; but, when I'm using an IM client, then period follows this article's alleged usage of meaning irritation or annoyance. Notably, this only applies to the last sentence in a message and only when the messages are between 0 and 1 paragraph. I haven't analyzed my own chat-style writing beyond a single paragraph, so I have no comment around anything beyond that.
The people I know tend to be the same, as far as I know, ending sentences without a period. We do often end them with things other than a period, though, like exclamation points, question marks or a few other group-specific symbols, such as emoticons, to make sure that it's known the message is ended and it is of a particular tone. The period is just one of those tones and that tone is almost always perceived as a sharp one, unless it is one of the group that has a rabid dedication to the period-is-end-of-sentence style.
All of that said, the people I tend to speak with also tend to have strong pet-peeves around they're/their/there, than/then and other commonly misrepresented words. They also tend to demand that people spell out whole words rather than using r for are and u for you, unless you're being ironic. Punctuation is very important to us, we have just redefined the terminating mark.
Language is interesting.
(fwiw)
Sometimes. just. emphatic.
On the article's example a period means an non-friendly way to answer (like being 'pissed'). In other cases I've noticed that the period assumes the meaning of talking seriously (since it's more formal to use it). In other cases I've also seen having the meaning of sureness (like when we end a sentence with the word 'period').
In a nutshell: the period has a meaning of completeness; what I've said ended just there. In a informal conversation, where period is not required or it's not traditionally used, using it acquires a meaning. And this meaning is completely dependent on the people and the subject involved.
I love these subtle differences in the way we communicate. I'm not only not against it, as many people are, but I also nourish it. It's more fun, more clever to do this way. Why not to say it: more humane.
I love language hacking...
[1] http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_(signe)#Le_point_diplomat...
So imagine my consternation when a friend of mine started using tons of periods in her text messages:
Interestingly, in her case, the extra periods apparently didn't mean anything. As she later explained, "that's just how I text...... not sure why.."Amazing how much emotional weight a simple dot can carry, even when it's not intentional.
0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONrNetxS1Fs
I use it (I think) to indicate not only that I had to stop and think about what word to use, but also to indicate that what I'm saying is my opinion or thoughts on the matter.
When I'm stating something factually I never do it, but when you ask if I want Pizza or Burgers, I'd say, hmmm.... Pizza sounds good :)
I really noticed this in my German class. There are students from various countries, and one of the students was an American girl in her early 20s. She was a nice person, but you could really see people going through the "are you telling me or asking?" confusion all the time. I think there's something deeper going on here. I don't want to wax philosophical too much, but our current culture appears suspicious of statements. As if uttering them is crass in some way. I don't claim to understand why.
(actually my cracked phone screen will do this sometimes, the comma is right next to space on the touch screen keyboard)