Want to get comfortable sleeping only 4-6 hours a day? Have a baby.
Seriously, though, while the page is a bunch of marketing bullshit I'd be interested in buying if it came out as a product. There really seems to be something to timing your wakeups to coincide with your sleep cycle. I have a very predictable 90 minute cycle and fall asleep very quickly, so I've had good luck with those sleep timer apps that wake you up at multiples of 90 minutes.
This may be a good device for monitoring sleep, but for those considering a polyphasic sleep schedule, try reading one of many HN threads on the topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1464142
WHY OH WHY is polyphasic sleep so attactive? Read about it a little bit, and realize that it is totally, TOTALLY unnatural, nearly impossible to maintain for any length of time, and possibly dangerous to your long-term well-being.
Go hack something else. Leave your circadian rhythms alone. You cannot redesign them or improve them.
If you are working on a submarine, then maybe polyphasic sleep is useful, because of the extraordinary circumstances. Otherwise, it is simply a bad idea.
You're probably right about polyphasic sleep. Biphasic sleep is worth considering, however, either in the flavor of daily naps, or simply getting up for an hour or so in the middle of the night. There is some evidence for the notion that this was the norm before artificial light: http://www.history.vt.edu/Ekirch/sleepcommentary.html
That's pretty much what I do now. My daughter (at one!) still needs a bottle around 2-3 am, so I'll feed her then tidy up or move the wash to the dryer or something. I think it's at least worthwhile to explore how you sleep, even if you're not trying to do the whole polyphasic thing. Just sleeping at a regular time every day, and timing your wakeups to coincide with a sleep cycle can make you feel better and give you a lot of extra hours on the weekend (no sleeping in!)
Well, I'm certainly not an expert in the field, but from that same wikipedia article it seems as though a large number of human societies have practiced biphasic sleep cycles, but there's no historical reference to having more phases than that. If it were that advantageous, why haven't there been entire societies practicing it?
First of all, what 'advantageous' means has changed a lot. Our priorities and needs nowadays are completely different then back in early history. Food is abundant, physical work is much less common, etc.
The benefits from having more awake time might not be enough to propagate such a change. Or the lost flexibility might have mattered much more back then.
I'm not claiming everyman is clearly and strictly better than mono or biphasic sleep. We have to find out, and the only way we can find out is by people actually trying it. But saying that monophasic sleep is the only way to sleep is silly.
That is so funny. I was thinking the same thing exactly!
Slightly unrelated, I also wonder about stomach sleepers. it seems like all of these things are designed for back and side sleepers. I know that stomach sleeping isn't considered "healthy" (for back/neck reasons) but there are some things that just are the way they are.
Do you like sleeping, or do you like feeling well rested? Most people when they say they like sleeping mean the second, and the point of polyphasic sleep is to get to that without wasting 8-10 hours a day.
I am usually sucker for these things, but man, oh man :), polyphasic really! I thought this was busted long time ago as a myth.
Steve Pavlina was trying to do it and in the end had to admit it is just a way to be constantly sleepy.
Mask looks really nice, I would prefer it was a brain entrainment device of sorts. However, to end on more positive note, Kickstarter is great because they have a chance to show us their idea and gauge how much we are interested or not in it. So yay for Kickstarter!
Pavlina is not exactly a reputable source. His ex-wife and business partner is a telephone psychic, and he takes her 'job' seriously in many blog posts.
They're either both cranks, or scammers. In either case you shouldn't take him seriously.
Your "cranks, or scammers" assessment raises an interesting question. Let's assume psychic powers don't exist. If someone who believes in them calls a for-pay psychic hotline, with which of the following 'telephone psychics' will their interests be best-protected?
(a) a psychic true-believer, who also cares about the caller
(b) a psychic true-believer, who simply wants to maximize their own income at the caller's expense
(c) a non-believer willing to pretend they are psychic, but who also cares about the caller's welfare
(d) a non-believer willing to pretend they are psychic, who simply wants to maximize their own income at the caller's expense
The 'psychics' of (a) and (b) are irrational/superstitious (or maybe even outright insane): that is, 'cranks'. The 'psychics' of (b) and (d) are amoral criminals: 'scammers'.
But (c) is kind of an interesting case. They're telling pleasing lies to someone, but that might be the best the caller can get. (Compare the 'white lies' often told to children, or people in psychological distress.) But the 'psychic' is still sane and empathetic. For example, they're not going to tell someone with a real health issue to skip professional treatment for just 'manifesting health'. They might give reasonable advice... under cover of 'psychic insight'. They won't view the solution to every issue as 'pay our hotline more money until you're broke'.
I have no idea about the details of Mrs. Pavlina's practice. I just think that given the existence of devoutly-believing psychic-seekers, and the existence of magical-thinking (a)- and (b)-type 'psychics', and cynically exploitative (d)-type psychics, the most compassionate response by rational and ethical people might not be just debunking/avoiding the whole enterprise. It might involve some practicing (c)-type 'psychics'... a little like harm-reducing clean needles for drug addicts.
That's a very fascinating breakdown, and it's sort of a sad testament to American society and attitudes towards mental healthcare that case (c) might actually be a legitimate way to provide counseling to people who otherwise would not have sought it out. And perhaps it's cheaper, too.
I have to agree. I used to be a huge Pavlina fan for the personal development and productivity stuff, but over the years got really turned off by all the posts about law of attraction and solipsism (though he disputed that's what he was going on about).
Which makes no sense to anyone who has actually managed to switch to polyphasic sleep, even for just a week or two.
Pavlina is so inconsistent in his description of his polyphasic sleep experiences that the consensus on the polyphasic mailing list I ran for a while was that he was a lying about doing it at all.
I don't know of any credible claims that managed it for more than a couple of months, and even that was on a semi-anonymous internet mailing list :)
My personal record was 3 weeks, not including the adjustment time, but I would always get derailed by a cold. I'm really need my sleep though, I'm sure that someone with less need for sleep could do better.
I found that by perfecting the napping-on-command first (for several months, too) rather than the going without sleep, I was able to make the transitions relatively painless, until I would get sick.
Stealing from a post I made on the same subject 932 days ago:
I've read some reports from people who are tired all the time because they haven't "adjusted" - and the punchline is they never will. I think Pavlina's and others are in denial; while the social aspect is obviously negative, it gives them a convenient excuse. If the only downside was not having a schedule that worked with the rest of society, there would be someone, somewhere who would not have done it, but would being doing it. But there isn't, because that's not how sleep, for us, works.
I did polyphasic sleep for three months. It is possible and it does work, but what is overlooked is how perfect your sleep schedule needs to be. When you're hitting all of your naps perfectly, you're really not ever tired and you wake up without an alarm usually.
But... if you miss one nap, life is very difficult for a good 24-48 hours. Miss another nap in that timeframe and the problem compounds. Maybe this mask will help with that, or maybe not-- I have no idea. For me the problem was being near a good sleep location every four hours. I'd try to sleep in my car, but a third of the time or so I wouldn't be able to sleep and I'd be screwed.
Anyway-- I'm glad to see people working on this. I've thought about getting back on it, but the completely hellish 5 day transition period and rigidity have held me back.
I found that I somehow kept getting colds when I was trying to get into the Uberman schedule even though it was the middle of summer so I'd be interested to know if it's somehow related.
I did this a long time ago, so I don't remember exactly. Typically I would get my nap in on time, but sometimes wouldn't be able to fall asleep for some reason or another.
I think going to sleep 20 minutes late wouldn't be that big of a deal... 1 hour late would probably mess things up considerably.
Or you could sleep for a regular amount hours on a regular basis.
This kind of brain-hackery bullshit is just marketing fluff. I envy and pity anybody with too much money and not enough brains, but this is just blatant pandering to nitwits and morons.
This is right up there with homeopathic medicine, magnetic wristbands to improve blood oxygenation, and compression nylon clothes to improve blood circulation. It's pseudoscientific bullshit.
I'm no MD, but I did see a Stanford sleep psychologist for a long period to deal with my sleeping issues.
As usual, the answer to whether polyphasic sleep works isn't very attractive. In a nutshell, it will work for some people, but probably not for most. We evolved to sleep at night, plain and simple.
That being said, I would love more details on how this would help you manage your regular sleep. I see it supports "monophasic" mode, I would have definitely bought in at a lower price point.
Many sleep scientists say that the most natural sleep for people is divided into two parts: night and at noon. The polyphasic sleep is directed to people who can't afford such amount of sleep for example because of their work. They can try the polyphasic sleep for some time. That's why this kind of sleep is only some NeuroOn functionality. In biphasic or monophasic sleep modes (as you said, the natural for people) this device helps you by waking up gently avoiding doing it during deepest sleep. That's why it is much more pleasant than using normal alarm clock.
So uh, I don't really care about the polyphasic stuff. Would this device improve normal sleep? I struggle to find comfortable sleep masks. I suppose it's kind of expensive, although the sleep monitoring stuff is cool.
Check out the "Mindfold" for a no-gimmick sleeping mask: http://www.mindfold.com/. It's really comfortable to wear and 100% pitch black dark. I actually found it via HN some time ago and I like it a lot.
"NeuroOn has technology that lets you induce lucid dreaming, whenever you want" - polyphasic sleep is pretty interesting, but this is what does it for me... IF it's possible.
This looks useful even to just monitor and (hopefully) improve normal sleep patterns. I've been using an Up band for sleep tracking, and it has some accuracy issues, but is still useful; a device monitoring brainwave patterns could be more accurate.
Might be fun to hack around with for other brainwave monitoring purposes, such as meditation/biofeedback.
I'm really interested in this project, but wish they had left polyphasic sleep entirely out of it. The sleep data they provide (REM and NREM monitoring, etc) seems fantastically useful, and the lucid dream induction is intriguing, if dubious; however, the inclusion of polyphasic sleep makes me suspicious of the scientific rigor of the project on a whole. It's making it hard to decide whether to go ahead and back - on the one hand, I sleep with a mask anyway, definitely want the sleep monitoring capabilities the device offers, but on the other, can I trust it?
Yeah, I'd like one just to figure out how much I'm really sleeping and how much of that is deep sleep, etc.
Hardware-wise, it sounds a lot like the old Zeo Personal Sleep Manager. I was interested in getting one of those, but then the company went other and shutdown their API, bricking all their devices. I hope these guys don't make the same mistake.
I can replace the lipo battery with another one with the same capacity. However, I will have to expand the case. My current plan is to seal the battery in a few layers of aluminum tape and to 3D print a "gasket" system.
The company going out of business doesn't "brick" anything, at least for my older system. There are programs that can read the data format.
I presume that the way the lucid dream induction works is by blinking an LED when the onset of REM sleep is detected. There are other products out there already that do this; the idea is that you'll train yourself to notice any blinking red lights or objects in your dreams and associate that with realizing that you're dreaming.
I think that if you need the product to increase the amount of workable hours in a day, you're doing something wrong to begin with. The idea of Polyphasic sleep in itself is interesting, but do it for the right reasons (more time to communicate with friends/family who are in a different timezone, work nightshifts etc.).
One other thing to consider is the fact that sleeping less means you've got more time to spend, also during hours when almost nobody else is awake. For some this isn't an issue, but for others this could prove to be difficult. I for one would opt for an Everyman cycle, since it allows you to be awake during relatively "normal" hours.
One serious concern I have with polyphasic sleep is the suppression of pineal gland secretions like melatonin from exposure to blue/green light. 470mn is the most potent frequency (looks like "sky blue" to me) though humans have shown some sensitivity to frequencies as high as 505nm. What's more, humans have shown sensitivity to intensities as low as 0.5 lumens. (Especially for prolonged exposures. That sliver of light coming underneath your door? Bad.)
What this means: If you are doing computer work at night, you are probably messing up your circadian rhythm and endocrine system. This is true, even if you have installed software like f.lux.
Note: We have done research into melatonin levels, but there are other pineal secretions that are probably affected the same way. The receptors involved are not the ones used for sight. Also note that we uncovered that the deepest phases of sleep are involved in actually removing certain materials from your brain!
Do not mess with sleep! (Disclosure: I am currently developing an iPhone app that will help evaluate the presence of melatonin suppressing light in your environment.)
From all of their marketing material it appears that they're based out of Poland. I wonder if setting your kickstarter location to SF is the cool thing to do.
63 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 124 ms ] threadSeriously, though, while the page is a bunch of marketing bullshit I'd be interested in buying if it came out as a product. There really seems to be something to timing your wakeups to coincide with your sleep cycle. I have a very predictable 90 minute cycle and fall asleep very quickly, so I've had good luck with those sleep timer apps that wake you up at multiples of 90 minutes.
Go hack something else. Leave your circadian rhythms alone. You cannot redesign them or improve them.
If you are working on a submarine, then maybe polyphasic sleep is useful, because of the extraordinary circumstances. Otherwise, it is simply a bad idea.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep#Claimed_sleep...
Source? because the studies I know usually show polyphasic sleep as the most natural, and wikipedia agrees (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep)
> nearly impossible to maintain for any length of time
crazy schedules like uberman, perhaps, but I know people that have been on everyman for years.
> possibly dangerous to your long-term well-being
So is monophasic sleep.
> Leave your circadian rhythms alone. You cannot redesign them or improve them.
Unless you can.
First of all, what 'advantageous' means has changed a lot. Our priorities and needs nowadays are completely different then back in early history. Food is abundant, physical work is much less common, etc.
The benefits from having more awake time might not be enough to propagate such a change. Or the lost flexibility might have mattered much more back then.
I'm not claiming everyman is clearly and strictly better than mono or biphasic sleep. We have to find out, and the only way we can find out is by people actually trying it. But saying that monophasic sleep is the only way to sleep is silly.
Regardless of whether polyphasic is best, it looks like it also supports biphasic and a variety of other sleep modes.
if left unchecked i usually end up with a couple of 2-3 hour naps in a 24hr period instead of a big sleep.
although i'm sure its not good for me. :)
That it is nearly impossible to maintain for any length of time explains why things that can make it easier to maintain is attractive.
The only real objection you are presenting is that it possibly is dangerous.
> Go hack something else. Leave your circadian rhythms alone. You cannot redesign them or improve them.
Do you have any actual basis for this claim, or are you just making another appeal to nature?
Slightly unrelated, I also wonder about stomach sleepers. it seems like all of these things are designed for back and side sleepers. I know that stomach sleeping isn't considered "healthy" (for back/neck reasons) but there are some things that just are the way they are.
Steve Pavlina was trying to do it and in the end had to admit it is just a way to be constantly sleepy.
Mask looks really nice, I would prefer it was a brain entrainment device of sorts. However, to end on more positive note, Kickstarter is great because they have a chance to show us their idea and gauge how much we are interested or not in it. So yay for Kickstarter!
They're either both cranks, or scammers. In either case you shouldn't take him seriously.
(a) a psychic true-believer, who also cares about the caller
(b) a psychic true-believer, who simply wants to maximize their own income at the caller's expense
(c) a non-believer willing to pretend they are psychic, but who also cares about the caller's welfare
(d) a non-believer willing to pretend they are psychic, who simply wants to maximize their own income at the caller's expense
The 'psychics' of (a) and (b) are irrational/superstitious (or maybe even outright insane): that is, 'cranks'. The 'psychics' of (b) and (d) are amoral criminals: 'scammers'.
But (c) is kind of an interesting case. They're telling pleasing lies to someone, but that might be the best the caller can get. (Compare the 'white lies' often told to children, or people in psychological distress.) But the 'psychic' is still sane and empathetic. For example, they're not going to tell someone with a real health issue to skip professional treatment for just 'manifesting health'. They might give reasonable advice... under cover of 'psychic insight'. They won't view the solution to every issue as 'pay our hotline more money until you're broke'.
I have no idea about the details of Mrs. Pavlina's practice. I just think that given the existence of devoutly-believing psychic-seekers, and the existence of magical-thinking (a)- and (b)-type 'psychics', and cynically exploitative (d)-type psychics, the most compassionate response by rational and ethical people might not be just debunking/avoiding the whole enterprise. It might involve some practicing (c)-type 'psychics'... a little like harm-reducing clean needles for drug addicts.
Pavlina is so inconsistent in his description of his polyphasic sleep experiences that the consensus on the polyphasic mailing list I ran for a while was that he was a lying about doing it at all.
My personal record was 3 weeks, not including the adjustment time, but I would always get derailed by a cold. I'm really need my sleep though, I'm sure that someone with less need for sleep could do better.
I found that by perfecting the napping-on-command first (for several months, too) rather than the going without sleep, I was able to make the transitions relatively painless, until I would get sick.
I've read some reports from people who are tired all the time because they haven't "adjusted" - and the punchline is they never will. I think Pavlina's and others are in denial; while the social aspect is obviously negative, it gives them a convenient excuse. If the only downside was not having a schedule that worked with the rest of society, there would be someone, somewhere who would not have done it, but would being doing it. But there isn't, because that's not how sleep, for us, works.
But... if you miss one nap, life is very difficult for a good 24-48 hours. Miss another nap in that timeframe and the problem compounds. Maybe this mask will help with that, or maybe not-- I have no idea. For me the problem was being near a good sleep location every four hours. I'd try to sleep in my car, but a third of the time or so I wouldn't be able to sleep and I'd be screwed.
Anyway-- I'm glad to see people working on this. I've thought about getting back on it, but the completely hellish 5 day transition period and rigidity have held me back.
Not to mention what happens when you get a cold.
I found that I somehow kept getting colds when I was trying to get into the Uberman schedule even though it was the middle of summer so I'd be interested to know if it's somehow related.
I think going to sleep 20 minutes late wouldn't be that big of a deal... 1 hour late would probably mess things up considerably.
This kind of brain-hackery bullshit is just marketing fluff. I envy and pity anybody with too much money and not enough brains, but this is just blatant pandering to nitwits and morons.
This is right up there with homeopathic medicine, magnetic wristbands to improve blood oxygenation, and compression nylon clothes to improve blood circulation. It's pseudoscientific bullshit.
As usual, the answer to whether polyphasic sleep works isn't very attractive. In a nutshell, it will work for some people, but probably not for most. We evolved to sleep at night, plain and simple.
That being said, I would love more details on how this would help you manage your regular sleep. I see it supports "monophasic" mode, I would have definitely bought in at a lower price point.
(straps on a big ugly Neuroon ski-mask thing)
_disrupted._
YEAHHH!
Might be fun to hack around with for other brainwave monitoring purposes, such as meditation/biofeedback.
Hardware-wise, it sounds a lot like the old Zeo Personal Sleep Manager. I was interested in getting one of those, but then the company went other and shutdown their API, bricking all their devices. I hope these guys don't make the same mistake.
http://imgur.com/rHZmTY3
I can replace the lipo battery with another one with the same capacity. However, I will have to expand the case. My current plan is to seal the battery in a few layers of aluminum tape and to 3D print a "gasket" system.
The company going out of business doesn't "brick" anything, at least for my older system. There are programs that can read the data format.
Whether it actually works or not I can't say.
One other thing to consider is the fact that sleeping less means you've got more time to spend, also during hours when almost nobody else is awake. For some this isn't an issue, but for others this could prove to be difficult. I for one would opt for an Everyman cycle, since it allows you to be awake during relatively "normal" hours.
What this means: If you are doing computer work at night, you are probably messing up your circadian rhythm and endocrine system. This is true, even if you have installed software like f.lux.
Note: We have done research into melatonin levels, but there are other pineal secretions that are probably affected the same way. The receptors involved are not the ones used for sight. Also note that we uncovered that the deepest phases of sleep are involved in actually removing certain materials from your brain!
Do not mess with sleep! (Disclosure: I am currently developing an iPhone app that will help evaluate the presence of melatonin suppressing light in your environment.)
Let me know how that works for you, dreaming for 16 hours straight and waking up tired.