Ask HN: Should I validate a client's idea?
The app will be entering into a very competitive marketplace, with a slightly different spin. However, the founder has almost no experience of web development and what it takes to get an app off the ground.
Given what I have seen so far, I don't think that he understands what it takes to make this thing successful. I don't know, maybe he gets lucky or something, but lets just say its unlikely. Its going to take a LOT more money in marketing than he believes and I get the impression that he thinks that people will just come to the website and use it. He is throwing out numbers that he thinks are attainable and, having started a few web apps myself, I know that he is being unrealistic.
I'm not sure that in all good conscience I can take on a project that is going to cost him a lot of money and not be successful.
I honestly don't have the time to get more involved, and start giving him advice on all the different aspects from a business point of view. Technically, though, I can get the job done to an awesome standard. But not on the business side.
Do I just lay the cards on the table, and let him make the decision?
41 comments
[ 4.5 ms ] story [ 87.3 ms ] threadThe right approach is the exact opposite: make this a time and materials contract, where you bill every month for the hours of work done that month. He will be able to ask for fixes to things which are outright bugs (depending on how the law and the contract specify the warranty provisions), but tweaks or enhancements will cost him money. Using this kind of contract makes it very easy to stick to your guns over this.
Don't ever go agile with a client you know up front has unrealistic expectations. Screw "customer collaboration over contract negotiation", you cannot collaborate with a client that isn't operating on the same level of reality.
This kind of client will screw you over the first chance they get, and the worst part is that half the time they won't even be aware of it.
If you can afford to say no, say no. If you can't, make sure you have a bullet proof contract, fulfill the contract diligently and then run.
Oh, and add a considerable percentage of overhead costs to your offer. Because even during the process you're going to be spending an awful lot of time explaining, negotiating and documenting everything.
Finally, check this client's network. If he has a lot of contacts and influence, and he can't manipulate you into doing lots of free extra work to salvage his project, he's likely to publicly blame you for his failure. One thing people with unrealistic expectations have in common is that failure is never their fault.
Your phone ringing off the hook will only happen when he thinks he might get what he's asking for; which is a different problem altogether.
Generally I've learned to never dissuade someone from chasing their dreams, no matter how unrealistic I feel it is. I have learned to tell them what I feel they would benefit most from focussing on.
Here's the work that I will do for this milestone. It will take me approximately x days and cost y.
I then get the client to sign off on that before commencing work. This make sure that I get paid for work that I do on a regular basis. If the client doesn't pay on time for the last milestone, then I stop work. It keeps everyone honest.
You can propose to create a MVP and just show screenshots of early twitter and facebook...
Say it will cost him less money and it will help him validate the idea. Show him some Analytics of some of you're apps.
Then notice that most of the stuff for the finishing product is in the current sprint backlog and explain that ain't a MVP.
Then start to filter stuff away for what isn't "required", the more you filter, the more it will become an MVP.
"I see challenges..." [and list them honestly, but don't overstate] is all you need to (and should) say. We've all looked at pre-successful businesses and thought they couldn't possibly work. Don't be so sure his will fail due to marketing requirements or any other shortcomings you perceive. Surprises surprise us all the time.
I'd say tell them exactly what OP has written here. If they press on about it and you haven't got the bandwidth to educate them then perhaps connect them with a mentor or two. If the client wants to pay OP to help him make a successful business then I'd say that's a win.
I'm reminded of the words of Daniel Kish, a blind man who has struggled against the wrap-them-in-cotton-wool approach generally taken in the raising of blind children:
> Running into a pole is a drag, but never being allowed to run into a pole is a disaster. [1]
Tell him about the pole, and about the pain of running into poles, but if he choses to run, don't try to stop him.
[1] http://www.mensjournal.com/article/print-view/the-blind-man-...
But we are operating only few months, so it may be only the learning how to do business and communicate it that is hard.
Company web: http://6artisans.com
I like the idea for your company, but the "artisan" angle ain't making me trust you. Instead it's making me laugh. Please take this as constructive criticism. I'm sure you folks know what you're doing. Just stop taking it so seriously.
So, you believe that you have knowledge that the client does not. And the lack of that knowledge will cause him to make a mistake. I would say that you have a professional obligation to advise him that the webapp is unlikely to succeed, but that this should not be used to override his freedom of action. If you explain your concerns and he still wants to proceed, then take the work.
The degree of any ethical obligation you might have depends on the harm that might be done to him by his failure. If he is wealthy and can absorb the cost of failure then, in warning him, you've probably discharged your ethical obligation too. On the other hand, if the client has re-mortgaged his house to pay for the app and he and his family would end-up homeless when it fails then I'd say you have a duty not to involve yourself. Obviously, the grey-area in-between is tricky.
If you don't think there is any ethical component to this then your decision will presumably be easier. I hope that is not the case.
Honestly, the best you can offer is advice - it's worth highlighting any particular problem areas that you may be able to help solve as part of the technical process.
However, at the end of the day, this guy's probably going to go ahead and build this app regardless of whether or not you agree to take it on. So the choice is a) it doesn't work, and you get the money or b) it doesn't work, and someone else gets the money. Sure, if there are going to be long-term ramification for you, of the "Hey, aren't you that guy who developed that awful website" kind, then maybe think twice. But it's realistically not your job to validate business ideas, and it's better not to even start down that road - because you'll end up sharing responsibility.
Just make sure that you're paid before launch!
A project like this seems to warrant an Agile approach; mitigating risk for both yourself and the client.
Love this attitude. There are too many people who simply don't care.
I agree with many others on this thread, lay the cards on the table (if possible with examples of your own apps and difficulties they've faced) and let him choose. Potentially also point him in the direction of a marketing/pr firm that may be able to help (ideally someone you're friendly with and can talk to beforehand). That way you're increasing the chances for him, reducing blame for yourself and paying forward with some work for a friend.
Good luck!
Mind your own business. Literally. Every startup is a bad idea until it makes money. Then, magically, it becomes an amazing idea.
That said, yes, it will likely fail.
I have been in similar situations many times. An experienced client means very little, I assure you. They engage in similar stupidity, the only difference being that they will couch their nonsense as an "exploration" or "learning experience".
It's their money and they can spend it however they wish. My job is to deliver a product according to spec.
Now, I will politely inform them that based on my business acumen, understanding of the market, etc. that the success of their venture is extremely low. But that's as far as I go.
How do these projects end? Usually quite abruptly, when they run out of money. There is no hope of turning a client like this into a long-term client, because quite simply, they don't have any cash flow. They have cash, but it's a one time thing unless their business takes off, which it won't. But isn't that the definition of a startup?
This is not remotely true. For example, Dropbox was not a bad idea until it made money; it was a brilliant idea with an unproven business model.
Twitter was a bad idea. A stripped-down social networking site in a crowded marketplace ... unlikely to succeed. But succeed it did. Now it's a wonderful idea. But making a twitter clone now ... bad idea.
Now, a twitter clone with a 2 character limit, that's not a bad idea. That's a stupid idea.
I take on bad idea projects all the time, albeit with a warning to the client. I refuse to take on stupid ideas. I don't do crazy.
My advice is to pass on the opportunity from the technical implementation side and pitch some business consulting instead for a reduced or nonexistent fee. Then you can accomplish the following:
1) Help him out and not leave him completely hanging.
2) Remain engaged in case his business does take off and you gain enough confidence to take on some technical work.
3) Pass along the work to some contacts who might enjoy the technical work more than you would.
> I'm not sure that in all good conscience I can take on a project that is going to cost him a lot of money and not be successful.
No one can ultimately say a project will be successful or not as there have been good ideas that died, and bad ideas that took off.
Take the money, build the best web app that you can build.
Meanwhile they ran out of money and didn't pay our invoices.
So don't. It sounds like you have quite a bit of work landing at your door to make the above claim. If that's the case then choose to work on the projects that you feel have the most potential to succeed. Doing so will, assuming you're correct, build a better portfolio and reputation for you, which will then lead to more opportunities and better pay.
+ If a project is unsuccessful in a business sense, many clients will blame you, even if you deliver a perfect product.
+ If a client is bootstrapping with his own money (or friends/family), then the client will often try to get as much out of you as possible for as little as possible.
+ If a client does not listen to your recommendations and you feel it is irrational, you may find the client hard to work with.
+ If a client wants a "kitchen sink" product and often tells you things will be "easy", then the client may have unrealistic expectations for you too and/or continually want revisions.
Note that the core problem with many of these is that the client has a small budget and/or does not respect your time/work. If you can ensure that these are not problems, it is probably safe to proceed hourly/weekly but not for a flat rate.