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Ask HN: What's the best way for a foreigner to improve English to a great level?

34 points by simonebrunozzi ↗ HN
My wife and I are Italian, and we live in San Francisco. She's trying to find a job but feels stuck because her English is not good enough (I think she's at an acceptable level, but clearly she can't speak or listen as good as a mother tongue). She's looking for advice on what's the best way to dramatically improve it in 4 months, 25 hours a week or so. Thanks!

43 comments

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mlyang
Go onto Meetup.com and see if there are any relevant meetups in the San Francisco area for people looking to practice English. Alternatively, just go to any Meetup for a topic she's interested in (e.g. crafts, health, etc.) and she can talk and interact with the people there.

I would recommend that she volunteer somewhere (a non-profit or a clinic) where she'd be talking to people for most of the day. The best way to improve is just by practicing. I think that'll be more efficient and effective than any of these language sites/products.

bane
Accent can be a big perceptive issues for non-native speakers. It'd be worth it to look for an accent coach. Even if the rest of her English isn't perfect, being clearly understood for the rest of it might be worth it.
ma2rten
First identify what your weakness is (vocabulary and idioms, grammar, accent, comprehension). Then do something specific to improve on that: for instance for vocabulary the best is to read books or articles.
tomlu
I believe the human brain is best capable of picking up a language by being subjected to it. Hence I prefer reading and speaking over artificial practice, at least beyond bootstrap level.

Here's what worked for me:

1. Get an acceptable grasp using traditional methods (you are already here).

2. Read about three books while looking up every single word you don't understand. This may be easier when reading on a tablet. Warning: This will be slow going. Perhaps pick some favourite books you've already read.

3. Read another twenty or so books, but you shouldn't have to use the dictionary very often. Concentrate on flow.

This will take care of your vocabulary and grammar. To master conversational English and pronunciation you have to speak to people, but the foundation you built above will help.

Four months is an ambitious goal if you're looking for complete fluency, but you should see solid improvements.

marveller
Watch netflix videos w/ subtitles on. Mimic lead character's speech. Record your speech and compare it, repeat. It always worked for me.
brickcap
I have always believed that best way to learn a new language is to spend time with it. Read as much as you can. Watch subtitled movies and you will instinctively pick up on pronounciation.

Above all speak and write it. As you spend more time with it you will gain confidence.

amcnett
Play Cards Against Humanity with a couple understanding, native English-speaking friends. My girlfriend's sister's boyfriend is Swiss, and CAH has helped him learn a number idioms rather quickly.
simonebrunozzi
We just bought it a few weeks ago! We'll use it more often :)
azrealus
1. Surround yourself with native speakers and spend as much time as you can with them carrying on daily conversations. 2. Stop worrying about your accent or the fact that people won't always understand you.
hysan
Talk to yourself (in your head or out loud, whatever floats your boat) and think in English. Do this constantly when you're walking alone, doing the dishes, folding laundry, etc. It's a good way to practice and get yourself used to not having to rely on your mother tongue during downtime when you cannot do focused study/practice.
gallerytungsten
Take notes at all times; every time there's a word or phrase she should write it down and google it later. Learn idiomatic phrases and "think" in English.
nobozo
The first thing to do is to always be listening to people speaking English. Try to be aware of how they pronounce things and compare them to how you do it. Be aware of little things like verb conjugations. People will still understand you if you do it wrong but you'll definitely stand out as a foreigner. Also, don't talk too fast.

In your case this won't work, but try to stay away from other speakers of your native language. I see students at UC Berkeley who end up getting roommates from their same country. This is a very bad idea because they won't be forced to adapt their brain to the new language. I always found that having a girlfriend who speaks the language I'm trying to learn was a good idea.

Reading books will help your vocabulary but it probably won't help your understanding of spoken language. What I did when I was living in a foreign country trying to learn the language was to watch children's TV shows. Once I was able to speak and understand at a 5 year old's level I felt like I was ready to expand my horizons.

[dead] nobozo
The first thing to do is to always be listening to people speaking English. Try to be aware of how they pronounce things and compare them to how you do it. Be aware of little things like verb conjugations. People will still understand you if you do it wrong but you'll definitely stand out as a foreigner. Also, don't talk too fast.

In your case this won't work, but try to stay away from other speakers of your native language. I see students at UC Berkeley who end up getting roommates from their same country. This is a very bad idea because they won't be forced to adapt their brain to the new language. I always found that having a girlfriend who speaks the language I'm trying to learn was a good idea.

Reading books will help your vocabulary but it probably won't help your understanding of spoken language. What I did when I was living in a foreign country trying to learn the language was to watch children's TV shows. Once I was able to speak and understand at a 5 year old's level I felt like I was ready to expand my horizons.

ef4
If you have friends or coworkers who are native speakers, ask them to please correct you when you say something that isn't perfectly fluent.

Otherwise most people will ignore your mistakes, rather than risk insulting you.

pmiller2
This is one situation where watching TV as a background activity might actually be helpful. The best way to learn English is to surround yourself with English as much as possible. So, read, watch TV, talk to people, and to speak English at home as much as possible.

On the other hand, I bet her English is actually better than she thinks it is. I've met a lot of non-native English speakers who have unnecessarily apologized for perfectly intelligible (if accented) English.

wyclif
As a former ESL teacher, I think TV can be helpful but it's better to be very selective about which shows you watch. Pick shows that have a lot of dialogue in English.

Older TV shows tend to be more dialogue-centric. If you have the TV Land channel, I'd suggest: MASH, All in the Family, I Love Lucy, The Honeymooners, The Dick Van Dyke Show, &c.

Contemporary shows that would be good for this purpose might be: Modern Family, NCIS, Mad Men, Big Bang Theory, Parks and Recreation, Arrested Development, Parenthood (advanced: lots of simultaneous talking).

pmiller2
Good point. I think I might actually avoid comedies at first though, because it can be hard to get the jokes.
patio11
I'd recommend taking an intensive ESL course, which you presumably have many options for at local universities. (My wife, who is Japanese, is similarly looking into options.)

If that isn't an option:

For listening comprehension, and eventually speaking, practice "shadowing." Have her listen to interest-appropriate TV shows and say exactly what the speaker is saying, in real time. (You can also do this exercise with transcription.) It will be maddeningly difficult at first, but with literally hours a day of doing it, she will see radical gains.

This is a large part of the training for professional translators/interpreters. In my experience it works very well. It is also some of the most frustrating work I've ever done.

simonebrunozzi
Thanks patio11 (you're one of my favorite HN commenters, BTW :D). I found out that Japanese and Italian, as languages, have a lot in common in terms of pronunciation, and IT and JP speaking people have similar issues when trying to learn English. I will definitively tell my wife to look into this.
zkirill
Read books out loud. My English, both speech and vocabulary, improved dramatically after I spent weeks sitting outside on the balcony reading Lord of the Rings out loud to myself.
sifarat
Even though I had my personal interest to learn English, back when internet was not common, or not very accessible due to dialup, i would buy English newspapers and study them, and always keep a dictionary with them.

However, that was bit silly and a lot more time consuming.

The best to improve English is to be part of a community (an online forum). it's up to you which you want to join. Only join the one which interests you. Get involved in lengthy debates and discussiona, I know it's not cool, but just for the sake of learning and improving your English.

If you follow up above advice, your English skills will skyrocket in a very short time compared to traditional methods.

Pitarou
As a qualified, practising teacher of English as a foreign language, I guess I should be able to help.

For competence, once you've got past the basics of grammar, it's mostly about memory. Create a database of words, phrases, and example sentences, and use some kind of Spaced Repetition System (e.g. Anki) to keep reviewing them.

Fluency is harder. First, what does it mean to be fluent?

Last time you were in a shop and the shopkeeper handed you your change, what did you say?

Thank you.

Did you plan ahead? Did you think, "Oh heck. The shop keeper's just given me some change. What should I say now?" Of course not. The words just came to your lips. You were following a script that you'd internalised at a subconscious level. That's fluency.

So you need to internalise more scripts. How are you going to do that? Learn them. Seriously ... that's all there is to it. Just memorise huge chunks of text. Songs, movies, passages from your English textbook, and so on.

In particular, try shadowing. (I.e. speaking in synchrony with the audio version.) At first, do it with the printed version in front of you. Then do it purely from memory. Try exaggerating the accent when you do it, too. It may sound ridiculous, but to native speakers it will sound better than your normal Italian accent.

You'll see the benefits of all this hard work when you're in conversation. Fragments of memorised dialogue will pop into your head exactly when you need them, just like when you said Thank you. to the cashier.

By the way, children do this instinctively. That's why they love to watch the same movie, or hear the same story, over and over again.

gamegoblin
It's nice to hear this from a professional. I am an English speaker who speaks a couple foreign languages. When I am alone in my car, I talk to myself in foreign languages or have mock conversations. I repeat them over and over again. Then in a real conversation, I mix and match large phrases from my vault of mock conversations rather than translate word for word.
auctiontheory
Wow. When the NSA gets around to listening to their smartphone-recorded tapes of you, they're going to be very, very worried.

(Yes, "tape" is a colloquialism - I realize they probably use solid state media.)

gamegoblin
Actually, one of the most common things I repeat to myself is the first chapter of the Quran (it's only a paragraph) just because I think it sounds lovely when lyrically recited in arabic. So their tapes probably sound something like me talking to myself in French, answering myself in Spanish, and then bursting into a minute of Quranic recitation...

Before going full force into computer programming, I was mainly interested in linguistics, and threw myself into learning languages and traveling. So I wouldn't be surprised if my digital communications set off various automated flags, since I chat with friends around the world (Europe, China, Latin America, some in the Arab world, notably Saudi Arabia) on a daily basis in ~4 languages. I hope they take me off their lists when they realize we are just making small talk or discussing English grammar or {{ their language }}'s grammar.

rmc
Try exaggerating the accent when you do it, too. It may sound ridiculous, but to native speakers it will sound better than your normal Italian accent.

Someone gave me great advice once, they said to pronounce French with a French accent. When you think about it, it's obvious why that results in good spoken French.

vishaldpatel
There's a story of a Korean boy who learned English after coming to the United States by watching Simpsons episodes with the subtitles on. He'd write down every word / sentence that he didn't understand, find it's meaning and learn it. Then when the same episode was aired again later in the week, he'd watch it again to make sure that he understood.
veritech
When I'm alone I try to describe my surroundings in another language, It great for identifying adjectives and verbs that I don't already know. Coupled with a good dictionary app it really helps fill in the blanks.
yawz
Only practice can take her English at the desired level somewhat quickly. I'm trilingual with a forth language under my belt and in my opinion she has to spend as much time as possible with native English speakers (or with people who speak English very well). Unfortunately you aren't a native speaker so more than likely she's exposed to Italian more than English. This is a major hurdle. Reading is good. Listening is great but nothing beats discussing. One-on-one conversation classes could be great. You could look for people willing to practice Italian in exchange for English practice. Check "meetup"s in your region so that you can meet people and discuss in English (in whatever topic that is of interest to you). There's no doubt that she has to study grammar and vocabulary. She has to read a lot (It is important to use tools/apps/dictionaries that can speak the searched words). But I would concentrate heavily on English communication.
auctiontheory
I've been in this situation in another language: nothing beats (1) reading and (2) listening and (3) forcing yourself to speak.

It sounds like (3) may be a problem for your wife because of her lack of confidence. Forcing herself to speak English, as if there is no option, will make the difference.

If you two were to speak English to each other, so that she could literally stay in English-only mode all day, every day, that would help. Don't call mom. Does she read a newspaper? Read the Chronicle or NY Times or Guardian. Listen to the radio? Listen to NPR, or BBC. Etc.

BTW, do not set as a goal to speak American-accented perfectly idiomatic English. That will never happen, and is not necessary or even desirable. Italian accents rock.

simonebrunozzi
We will always keep "some" Italian accent, don't worry :)
hammadd
I'll give you my honest suggestion? Do not waste 4 months learning the language. Just let her go to work. At work, she will interact with all kinds of people which effectively exposes her to the language. That way she will learn the language more quickly and naturally rather than coaching or lessons or whatever.

I live in Saudi Arabia and as a non Arab I had a very difficult time speaking Arabic. I too spent a lot of time trying to learn the language before hand but it's nowhere effective to what you learn in a real situation with people.