Why do you think that? Please elaborate! HackerNews isn't supposed to be about trolling.
Personally, I like the idea and i'm going to use it. However, it relies on people downloading the extension. If there are enough people using it (which is definitely possible) then it would be successful.
It need demonstrate only one useful real world application for you to be wrong. It does not need to become universal.
As others have said, a web site that validates the consistency of its own content seems to have potential.
I would also consider the Internet of Things; a Thing having its own IPv6 address and its own domain name. QR Codes can help take care of the intractability of long hashes.
This is really cool. This is my favourite kind of idea; one that changes something fundamental in a succinct way.
This makes me wonder how important domains are at all. My mum never even thinks about the domains for the websites she visits, she just types in 'ebay' and Google does everything for her.
The only time I think about URLs (outside of coding) is when I have to share a link with someone, but I wonder if even that could be replaced with a sufficiently advanced search engine.
Google search indexing might be one downside of this system, as Google tends to give a lot of weight to domains that match your search term. But in this case the actual domain is a "nonsense" hash.
Perhaps the browser extension could be set so that whenever a search term is entered, it submits Google searches for both the raw text and its hash. If Google has indexed a domain that is a hash, and that exact hash is submitted as a query, you would get the right result as #1 every time.
RealNames was a company founded in 1997 by Keith Teare. Its goal was to create a multilingual keyword-based naming system for the Internet that would translate keywords typed into the address bar of Microsoft's Internet Explorer web browser to Uniform Resource Identifiers, based on the existing Domain Name System, that would access the page registered by the owner of the RealNames keyword.
Really? Searching for Pepsi gives me www.pepsico.com, www.pepsi.com and the Pepsi wikipedia page as the top three results, while +Pepsi gives me Google Plus pages for Pepsi as the top three results.
Thanks for the reminder of the name of this company. I was racking my brains to remember the exact name. I visited them back in the day (we were going to sell them IP location technology - deal never happened). They had awesome offices (foosball tables, nice cubes, etc.). Unfortunately they had zero ability to create user adoption. The lesson? Doing a proprietary thing that competes with a universally accepted thing is hard to be successful at. Even with $130 million in funding.
My favourite alternative domain name startup is "Bango," which back in the early days of the mobile internet wanted to make domain names easier to type on phones by replacing them with numbers: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/07/20/numeric_domain_name_...
They can, but there are limitations. For example, ä can only be used in certain countries (for example, a country where a large number of people speak a language that uses ä).
Well, DNS is nothing but a mapping from a domain name to an IP address. All this is is a mapping from a piece of text, to a domain name to an IP address. Alternatively, a mapping from a piece of text to an IP address. In other words, it's nothing but a domain name with different syntax.
This reminds me about how many people don't use domain names at all anymore. Many people probably type the name of their bank into the search bar and visit the first result. I've seen people literally pull up google to search for yahoo mail or ebay.
Domain names are still useful, for a start they provide some level of authentication when mixed with cryptography. (If you visit https://news.ycombinator.com, you can be relatively sure there is no MITM with certain conditions present).
It would be interesting to see how this system can be adapted to work with our current Internet infrastructure.
--2014-01-01 16:45:59-- https://news.ycombinator.com/
Resolving news.ycombinator.com (news.ycombinator.com)... 198.41.191.47, 198.41.190.47
Connecting to news.ycombinator.com (news.ycombinator.com)|198.41.191.47|:443... connected.
ERROR: The certificate of `news.ycombinator.com' is not trusted.
ERROR: The certificate of `news.ycombinator.com' hasn't got a known issuer.
One downside of this is that you're using a secure one-way hashing function. This means that if for some reason you have the hashed url you can't get the clean one back.
You could use something something like base64 instead.. might work better but it would remove the ability to use files as domain names.
With SHA1 the chances of that happening are so close to zero that you'd have to create trillions of keywords before you even approach a minuscule chance of hitting a collision.
If you find a hash collision, let us know. As security people, we'd be very, very concerned if you can find even one collision or even engineer a collision in SHA1 or especially SHA256.
I love the idea, I've been thinking along similar lines.
I would add less strict spelling, ie. spelling correction for existing domains, and for domains that are not recognized, go straight to search engine search (ie. google).
Neat idea! One quibble: since the essence is specifying a domain-name in a new way, it'd be good if the 'escaping' convention didnt' clobber/assume a single protocol/scheme. As it stands, it's not clear how this would be used for other schemes, even 'https'.
I might be missing something, but I completely don't get this idea, especially with the examples provided by the author. I have two major concerns:
> Bind searches to domain names, eg "food in chicago" => f02970848a63988965aa40cd368ffcf9046209ca.com
This IMO is bad, and goes in completely wrong direction. We've invented search engines to have such phrases not bound to a particular domain. Who would handle the "#://food in chicago" domain? Would it be Google? Bing? Yelp? Local restaurant chain? Or maybe some scammers? And who would maintain the completely different website "#://food in Chicago", and why "#://Food in Chicago" wants to silently install me some malware?
The reason searching for such phrases makes sense, while having them as domains does not, is that things like "food in chicago" are poorly defined, fuzzy concepts. It would feel weird to change one letter in a query, or replace word "food" with, eg. "something to eat", and see completely different website. Moreover, major search engines are more or less egalitarian wrt. buisnesses. Yes, there's the whole SEO thing, but you can't get full control of what food joints are listed near your location just because you've managed to get the register first. I can (and do) trust listings from Google; they have both incentives and track record of being fair. I will never trust listings from random-autogenerated-squat-scam-business-site.
Which brings me to the second point,
> Good domain names are pretty scarce. It's a source of frustration for anyone who has ever tried to buy a domain.
Yes, they are, and the primary source of frustration is that they are mostly taken by various squatters and other scums of the Internet. What will happen is that, the moment there's any real possibility such hash-domain scheme is introduced, all those evil people and companies will take all the domains like "#://microsoft", "#://android" and "#://insert any popular keyword or phrase here" in order to sell them back to real businesses for boatloads of money. And then we'll be back to square one, with maybe a little bigger domain space than we have right now. Bad people win, good people loose and nothing changed.
So, again, the concepts behind this idea elude me.
"and the primary source of frustration is that they are mostly taken by various squatters and other scums of the Internet"
"Scums of the Internet"? Oh please.
Where are you getting this all from exactly? You've just decided that since you weren't able to buy a domain [1] that you wanted at a price that you could afford to pay that all domains "are mostly taken by various squatters and other scum of the Internet".
I mean "scum"? How unfair that something that you want isn't available at a price YOU can pay. And if that price was affordable that someone else wouldn't have beaten you to buying it (which is already what happened, right?). I mean it would just be sitting there because nobody else ever thought of using or buying, say "hackernews.com" until PG decided to start Hacker news.
Or perhaps you think that domains are a "public trust" and that there should be some official board designated that decides who is worthy of a particular domain and whether they are "using" that particular domain "the right way". You know to make things fair.
Is that it? Further you are talking about .com because in general and with maybe a few exceptions, you can find many names in other TLD's (you just don't want them) or make a slight modification and have the domain you want in .com.
By the way are you aware that google owns duck.com and refuses to sell it [2] at any price at all? (And has turned down $500,000 for it iim.) Of course they aren't "using it" [3] and only have it because they bought the company that previously owned it
At least if it was owned by a person such as you refer to it would be available for sale at some price.
[1] Or perhaps that wasn't even the case maybe you have just read about other people or know someone that this was the "aggrieved" party?
[2] I was involved in trying to do this. And I communicated and had back and forth with high level people at google who in the end simply said "sorry not interested at any price". And this isn't the first time this has happened with a company either.
[3] It redirects to google.com as if they need that traffic.
I believe "creating anything useful" in this context means "doing any useful task"; I don't believe the original poster intended to put nurses, cops, or any service job in the same group as investment banker and domain squatter.
In that sense, investment banker is still a useful and necessary job, unlike domain squatter.
So in your opinion is a domain squatter worse, the same, or better than a real estate investor? That is someone who identifies something that has value that might be able to be sold at a higher value at a later date and buys it for less than they intend to sell at that later date?
IMO domain squatters are worse (and definitely more annoying). While real estate investing still seems like a parasitic activity and I'd be happy for it to disappear, at least when it comes to houses, a buyer usually doesn't care about a particular building - one can equally well live in a house next door, or next street. Whereas domains are almost never interchangable; if someone squats on my-company-name.com (and similar forms), I won't settle for company-my-name-friendshipismagic.com; I am pretty much forced to either buy from them or change the company/product name.
With respect to real estate investors provide liquidity as there is not always an end user who is willing to buy at the time you want to sell.
As far as "squatting on my company name" the majority of the vitriol on HN regarding domain names is not directed at "squatting on my company name" (to which there are clearly defined rules and procedures for recovering a domain (UDRP)) but just at the general idea of someone getting a domain and holding it to sell at a later date.
As far as "to either buy from them or change the company/product name" we are talking the year 2014 here. If you are starting a new company you should be taking into account whether the domain name you want is available. People don't, I know this for multiple reasons. One is that I get assignments to buy domains for startups that have already branded (which they shouldn't have done) and then come and say "I need this domain what can you do for me?" (in so many words).
Now if you are an established company and all the sudden woke up in 2014 and want your domain well then I guess that's to bad. Even back 10 years ago big corporations had this problem because the people they hired didn't know enough to lock up their domains. Either because they were inept or because they didn't feel it was important to have (so what can you say about that?)
From the three Fs? From a customer who wanted some playground equipment? From a crowdfunded philanthropic project that wanted to build some playgrounds? By saving up their income from previous jobs before making a go of a new company?
Basically, from the same places that the manufacturer gets their money from in order to pay dividends to the investors.
Investment banking is _a_ lubricant of industry, not _the_ lubricant, certainly not the fuel.
Wow. How much do you know about business and how long have you been around business?
Do you think that crowdfunding has replaced needing to raise capital through the legacy process of initial public offerings and also that companies that use investment bankers to not seek out a merger or acquisition of another company don't serve a purpose?
What do you think you just need millions to expand and walk into the bank or go to kickstarter?
Aren't investment bankers the ones providing money when one needs to build a new shipyard, oil rig or a power plant? It's definitely out of range of "Three Fs" or Kickstarter.
Squatters took the .com.au domain that I owned for my old business that didn't get re-registered due to the partnership folding. I went to get it 6 months later, and literally some squatting company had taken it and wanted to "auction it off" -- despite the fact that prior to me, no-one wanted it (its weirdly specific) and seeing as 5 years later they still have it and have just plastered it with ads, no-one still does.
Oh, and that goes against Australian domain regulations, but auDA refuse to do anything about it, sigh. Oh well, they can own a useless (to them) domain if they want to. I just think its silly.
Squatters are scum. They add nothing of value and make a resource artificially scarce for their own profit. If domain names had no value and people could just buy another one, then squatters wouldn't be making money in the first place.
I guarantee every person on here complaining about squatters being scum would jump at the opportunity to buy something that could potentially be of interest to someone else later on.
Your logic is similar to a used car dealer buying cars that they don't plan to drive themselves, or grocery stores buying all of the food to resale in their own store.
If you have such a problem with this why don't you buy all of the domain names and then decide on who should be allowed to buy them from you? The short answer is your a lazy, unhappy individual who hates anyone who is more ambitious than yourself.
I can't reply to you for some reason, nick2021, so replying to myself.
It's different because the squatter is essentially leeching off of everyone else. If it wasn't for them the people who wanted the domains could have gotten it for free or at least less. They add nothing of value at all.
One could argue the same for people who squat other scarce natural resources that they paid nothing for.
I agree with you. However making a resource artificially scarce to push the price up is what humans do. From where I am sitting I can see multiple items where this happens gold, diamonds (wife's ring), water (in a glass) electricity (well, a turned in light), several things with brand names on them (the copyrighted logo seems to keep that price up by ensuring that only one supplier exists, keeping supply low). I'd be quite surprised if there was much in the room which wasn't artificially price inflated.
Sort of but it's not exactly the same thing. Physical items generally take effort to build or to extract, and they generally pay for the land or materials or whatever. Copyright is meant to artificially inflate the value, for the benefit of the author who wrote it.
If there is a case of someone just inflating the price and adding literally no value at all then I would say that is just as bad.
First-to-claim is a really poor way of allocating any kind of resources, and yes, someone who just claims a bunch of stuff under such a system and then waits for it to become valuable due to other people's efforts is scum.
Solutions? I'd like to see something like a tax proportionate to asking price on domains, analogous to a land value tax, to discourage claiming domains that you're not actually using.
I get it, you work for a registrar, so you are naturally defensive (which I understand).
But like individuals who buy empty lots from the Forest Service to resell at a premium, can't you understand why this seems like an inefficient market outcome? Sure, it may be desirable/profitable, but not ideal?
Squatting may be a result of our domain registration system, but is it really desirable? to me it seems like a negative externality, that over-uses free domain names and which sells them for 100x times the price from a registrar, despite their non-use.
Why is a squatter adding any value? Should all domains be bought by one person who uses none for his one purposes, and sells each for 1k?
Explain what you mean by ideal? I'm not sure I get where you are going with that. Domain pricing is determined by economic forces.
"Why is a squatter adding any value?"
Value? What is the value of gambling at the casino or horse racing? Is value the demarcation point of economic activity that is acceptable?
What value does anyone provide who has enough knowledge (and or capital) to be able to buy something in advance anticipating that someone else might find it of value at a later date? We aren't talking about cornering the market on insulin here are we? Am I allowed to buy high volume scanners on craigslist and then sell them on ebay and make money? Am I providing "value"?
"Should all domains be bought by one person who uses none for his one purposes, and sells each for 1k?"
Well what prevents you from doing this to make money? Is it that you a) don't have the capital or b) don't have the knowledge to determine what would sell at a later date or c) you just find it objectionable and desire to not be in that business. (Like porn for example..)
If "c" then can you understand that it's a valid business model, is not illegal and in a sense is about as "fair" as someone buying real estate years ago in a hot area and now expecting to make a profit off that real estate? After all there is a risk in using your capital "a" to take this chance, right? You certainly don't believe that buying a bunch of domains that you think might go up in value is guaranteed do you?
This won't work because to me this is similar in concept to URL shorteners. The difference being in the shortening algorithm and the use of expensive domains.
I would be in favor of this idea if a little more thought was put into how the hashing function works.
As it stands, someone typing in:
food in Chicago
will get a different URL than:
food in Chicago
And the same goes for: Chicago food, chicago food, food near Chicago, etc.
Every one, with a single character difference (extra space, different word order, capitalization difference, regional spelling like theatre vs theater, etc) will result in a different hash.
You've now made 'humanized URLs' into 'no one will guess your domain'.
It's an interesting approach to avoiding search engines, but it doesn't solve the problem that search engines do solve: multiple similar but different entries resulting in the same "appropriate"/top website result.
With this approach, not even face book, Facebook, and facebook would result in the same .com (and please don't suggest just purchasing a billion domains and redirecting them all).
Are you sure? I just pasted both into my UTF8-encoded Linux terminal running `od -tx1` and got the same hex octets. (Also tried in Chrome's JS terminal "<paste string>".split("").map(function(s) { return s.charCodeAt(0); }) ) It's quite probable I don't know what I'm doing, so I'd appreciate knowing how to do it properly.
Also, since these strings would be typed, I'm not sure the homograph attack applies. Why would someone slip in a Cyrillic letter or something while typing the URL themselves? If extended to clickable links that displayed the pre-hash text, I could see the issue, but pudquick specifically said "someone typing in" the two URLs.
You could add a normalizing step before hashing in the extension, similarly to what's usually done to email addresses typed in by users:
- Remove duplicate spaces and punctuation
- lowercase entire query (just like DNS)
- Detect and normalize homographs (is this a impossible problem, or are there solutions out there already?)
This mechanism is half way to a suggested scheme for domains that are less vulnerable to single-actor take-downs, posted here on HN a few days ago; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6964090 .
In short; instead of merely mapping to [hash].com the extension could map to [hash].com, [hash].se , [hash].ly, [hash].is, [hash].ch and then use a quorum consensus of whatever answer 3 or more of those names agree on. Effectively each TLD registry (and each of your registrars), along with their regulatory environment, would lose the ability to take down your name without international agreement.
For certain niches, such a feature might be a good enough value proposition to ordinary users to convince them to install an extension.
Other observation; 36-ary is probably a better encoding for the hash data than hex. DNS isn't great with lengthy answers and every byte is worth conserving. But it's cool to see something interesting like this in the form of a browser extension.
The is a horrendously horrible idea, for the same reason why unicode domain names are a bad idea. Domain names are important because they provide a reasonable amount of trust. If I type http://apple.com, I'm 99.99999% certain that I've connected to Apple's website. This gets nasty with unicode, because a person can spam your email account and get you to click on a URL which looks very similar to something like apple.com, but really points to a malicious site (thank you cyrillic characters).
Hash based domain names would be even worse. You have no idea what site is lurking behind some big string of hex digits. You could argue that a person should just compare the hash to some known set of hashes, but that's a. cumbersome and b. unrealistic. If it's done by humans, it's error prone (a malicious site could spoof the first few chars to point to their site), and if it's done by computers, what's the point? You've now effectively created a really shitty replacement for DNS.
Until we can figure out something that doesn't suck, yes. Look, I'm sympathetic with a huge chunk of the world's population having to deal with a (potentially) unfamiliar character set, but what can you do about it? There has to be some standard that everyone can agree to which doesn't compromise the integrity of the net.
This might at first sound like a xenophobic, anglocentric position, but it actually makes quite a bit of sense. There are a number of instances in which it is advantageous / critical to adopt a lingua franca -- that is, a single language that everyone in the world agrees to use for a particular purpose. In the case of domain names, Patrick is right: If we allow characters that appear to be one thing but are actually another, it opens up a whole bunch of evil possibilities.
There is some middle ground between opening up all of UniCode and just Latin characters.
It seems that generally a subset of sufficiently distinct characters should mostly suffice. I don't think e.g. Latin, Hebrew and Chinese have much visual overlap.
This is already a solved problem in every major browser. They will show mixed script domains as punycode instead of their unicode equivalent[1][2]. ICANN does not even allow all unicode characters[3]. There's so much FUD going around.
Great links. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it's a "solved problem" when there are four different behaviours from four separate browsers, but I'm glad each browser is taking homograph attacks seriously. In the first link, I compared Chrome and Firefox and they do work differently.
Couldn't this also be mitigated by making all domains mandatorily delegated from a national ccTLD? Eliminate/redirect apple.com to apple.com.us, then make sure it conforms to the rules for US domains (Latin character set only, etc) whereas apple.com.ru comes under the rules of the Russian registrar?
I like this solution. However, ICANN already made profit on .us/.ru domains, when I really think that they should have come as 'free' suffixes to registrations.
e.g.
I buy 'apple.com' and while if I want to leave it as this, fine. However, I should also have 'apple.com.us' and 'apple.com.ru' so that I can handle these appropriately. It's not perfect, but it at least gives my users a chance to say "hey, I probably prefer (english|russian), so please give me that page."
Of course, this is also a bit lazy and somewhat of a non-solution, as this only addresses the issue for English speakers. A russian speaker using the .ru namespace is already willing to "play by the ascii rules."
People going to 'apple.com' really expect to go to the webpage of the American electronics company. One could assume this by the TLD. Users sending a request to 'apple.рф' would be doing something somewhat strange (user sends english base label, followed by a cyrillic tld). This isn't that absurd though, as english company names become loanwords (at least in russian -- see "xerox" or even ask a russian if he owns a 'yabloko makkniga pro' or an 'apple macbook pro' for example). Should the presence of a non-unicode TLD trigger country-specific mode in browsers for the sake of security? How do we handle loanwords (spoiler to above: russians say 'apple' when referring to the brand, even though it shadows the actual Russian word for apple) with non-ascii TLDs?
Language and nation are not the same thing. Sadly, a policy like this would open up a can of worms.
Should the Cherokee syllabary be permitted in .us domains? If so, you are still open to homograph spoofing against the Latin character set(e.g. Ꭹ for y or Ꭲ for T). If not, isn't it a trifle rude to declare that writing system "unamerican"?
What about immigrant languages other than English? Why are Latin-charset language users more American than e.g. Hebrew ones like the long-standing and well-known Yiddish population of New York?
You could ban mixing of code ranges in domains. That might help, but how do you sensibly restrict a code range? Turkish is a Latin charset language, but contains a few extra characters that pose a homograph risk. How do you work out whether a domain is Turkish (and allowed to contain ı) or not Turkish? Also, what if you wanted to differentiate the website for your California-based Yiddish-named restaurant from a similarly named competitor in New York?
Should the governments of Morocco and Algeria be empowered to blanket-refuse Tifinagh domain names? What about when Georgia was part of Russia?
> I'm sympathetic with a huge chunk of the world's population having to deal with a (potentially) unfamiliar character set, but what can you do about it?
Well, seeing as that "huge chunk" is a large majority, then the solution isn't "learn english because I'm used to typing URLs _this_ way."
I understand that English is the current lingua franca, but it's aggressive to expect everyone to deal with it just to use the internet.
Why not use our country tlds? It might mean that ICANN has to actually do some work, but I think that the uppermost tld for countries should actually be reserved for suffixes.
e.g.
apple.us #should have never been sold
apple.com.us #there, none of that scary unicode
apple.com.ru #same unicode problem abound (but at least it addresses the first issue)
Yet, we can all agree the Greek alphabet was first.
It is important to be first, because those who are first define the market. The market was defined in English, and what Patrick is saying, unfortunately for non-native English character set readers, is true.
They would need to invent their own separate internet, as your rebuttal suggests.
I hate to break it to you but Unicode domain names are here and have been for a while. For instance this English language page has a couple of graphs about registrations in the .РФ domain. http://кто.рф
Note that you can't just type it in because kto.p? is not the right letters and that last one is obviously not on your keyboard. But cut and paste should work fine.
That's pretty harsh, although you may be entirely correct. I'm not smart enough to know. Please remember that the author did this for fun and despite whatever flaws it may have, it is still interesting to think about.
Is it impossible to overcome the flaws you pointed out? Is there a way to abstract away the risk from the end user? Are there other applications for this where trust is not an issue? At risk of sounding like an idiot, could some sort of distributed proof-of-work/proof-of-stake protocol alleviate some of the trust problem?
I think the popularity of url shorteners shows that people are willing to click on links where they have no idea what is lurking behind an unintelligible string.
As for the apple site, there are other (better) systems in place for supplying identity information than just the url.
Unicode domain names are no more dangerous than HTML emails, which can also be used to fool people into clicking links that look like one site but go to another.
Unicode or not, if you type in apple.com on your English keyboard, you will go to the website of Apple, Inc. (Unless your DNS cache has been poisoned.)
> Unicode domain names are no more dangerous than HTML emails, which can also be used to fool people into clicking links that look like one site but go to another.
Except in the case of a carefully selected unicode domain, the address bar will say 'www.paypal.com', not 'www.paypallolimstealingyourlogin.com'.
To the extent that TLD's are namespaces of hostnames, it's just adding the equivalent of another TLD, but implementing it as a weird proprietary extension on top of .com.
I dont really want my mid-level domains to potentially be hashes - I want domains at all levels to be intelligible and, optimally, to be named what they are, i.e. foodinchicago.com or food_in_chicago.com or food in chicago.nlp_name
Perhaps enabling spaces in domain names is possible? Since spaces in filenames are allowed I don't see why spaces in names shouldn't be allowed. And then you could have a default root domain for natural language names - .nlp, for instance, and then just assume that name when someone types in a natural language URI with no tld.
We could use something like NameCoin for this TLD to avoid collisions.
I don't get the benefit .. the only 'pro' I can think of (spaces in domain names) would be better answered by allowing a space-to-double-hyphen transcoding so
hxxp://food in chicago.com/ encodes to hxxp://food--in--chicago.com
Pros:
* Domains can now have spaces
Cons:
* Domains are now case sensitive
* You visit a domain and it isn't reversible
* The google-juice assigned to domain names is gone
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Personally, I like the idea and i'm going to use it. However, it relies on people downloading the extension. If there are enough people using it (which is definitely possible) then it would be successful.
This makes me wonder how important domains are at all. My mum never even thinks about the domains for the websites she visits, she just types in 'ebay' and Google does everything for her.
The only time I think about URLs (outside of coding) is when I have to share a link with someone, but I wonder if even that could be replaced with a sufficiently advanced search engine.
Perhaps the browser extension could be set so that whenever a search term is entered, it submits Google searches for both the raw text and its hash. If Google has indexed a domain that is a hash, and that exact hash is submitted as a query, you would get the right result as #1 every time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RealNames
RealNames was a company founded in 1997 by Keith Teare. Its goal was to create a multilingual keyword-based naming system for the Internet that would translate keywords typed into the address bar of Microsoft's Internet Explorer web browser to Uniform Resource Identifiers, based on the existing Domain Name System, that would access the page registered by the owner of the RealNames keyword.
I'm certainly glad they stopped treating + as a search operator so we could get that feature in return.
The name for this is Direct Connect, and they announced it in 2011. http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/11/google-pages-connect-...
"food in chicago.com" becomes "food⋅in⋅chicago.com" becomes "xn--foodinchicago-lj4hc.com"
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalized_domain_name
Domain names are still useful, for a start they provide some level of authentication when mixed with cryptography. (If you visit https://news.ycombinator.com, you can be relatively sure there is no MITM with certain conditions present).
It would be interesting to see how this system can be adapted to work with our current Internet infrastructure.
You could use something something like base64 instead.. might work better but it would remove the ability to use files as domain names.
Really cool idea, though.
One of my favorite analogies for SHA collisions: http://stackoverflow.com/a/4014407/690258
I would add less strict spelling, ie. spelling correction for existing domains, and for domains that are not recognized, go straight to search engine search (ie. google).
Perhaps allow 'scheme#' (where naked '#' implies 'http#'), or move the convention entirely to the domain-name area rather than scheme area. ('#food in chicago' -> 'http://#food in chicago' -> 'http://f02970848a63988965aa40cd368ffcf9046209ca.com')
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petname
> Bind searches to domain names, eg "food in chicago" => f02970848a63988965aa40cd368ffcf9046209ca.com
This IMO is bad, and goes in completely wrong direction. We've invented search engines to have such phrases not bound to a particular domain. Who would handle the "#://food in chicago" domain? Would it be Google? Bing? Yelp? Local restaurant chain? Or maybe some scammers? And who would maintain the completely different website "#://food in Chicago", and why "#://Food in Chicago" wants to silently install me some malware?
The reason searching for such phrases makes sense, while having them as domains does not, is that things like "food in chicago" are poorly defined, fuzzy concepts. It would feel weird to change one letter in a query, or replace word "food" with, eg. "something to eat", and see completely different website. Moreover, major search engines are more or less egalitarian wrt. buisnesses. Yes, there's the whole SEO thing, but you can't get full control of what food joints are listed near your location just because you've managed to get the register first. I can (and do) trust listings from Google; they have both incentives and track record of being fair. I will never trust listings from random-autogenerated-squat-scam-business-site.
Which brings me to the second point,
> Good domain names are pretty scarce. It's a source of frustration for anyone who has ever tried to buy a domain.
Yes, they are, and the primary source of frustration is that they are mostly taken by various squatters and other scums of the Internet. What will happen is that, the moment there's any real possibility such hash-domain scheme is introduced, all those evil people and companies will take all the domains like "#://microsoft", "#://android" and "#://insert any popular keyword or phrase here" in order to sell them back to real businesses for boatloads of money. And then we'll be back to square one, with maybe a little bigger domain space than we have right now. Bad people win, good people loose and nothing changed.
So, again, the concepts behind this idea elude me.
You receive a phrase, then get its hash, enter that hash and geta hashed url?
"Scums of the Internet"? Oh please.
Where are you getting this all from exactly? You've just decided that since you weren't able to buy a domain [1] that you wanted at a price that you could afford to pay that all domains "are mostly taken by various squatters and other scum of the Internet".
I mean "scum"? How unfair that something that you want isn't available at a price YOU can pay. And if that price was affordable that someone else wouldn't have beaten you to buying it (which is already what happened, right?). I mean it would just be sitting there because nobody else ever thought of using or buying, say "hackernews.com" until PG decided to start Hacker news.
Or perhaps you think that domains are a "public trust" and that there should be some official board designated that decides who is worthy of a particular domain and whether they are "using" that particular domain "the right way". You know to make things fair.
Is that it? Further you are talking about .com because in general and with maybe a few exceptions, you can find many names in other TLD's (you just don't want them) or make a slight modification and have the domain you want in .com.
By the way are you aware that google owns duck.com and refuses to sell it [2] at any price at all? (And has turned down $500,000 for it iim.) Of course they aren't "using it" [3] and only have it because they bought the company that previously owned it
At least if it was owned by a person such as you refer to it would be available for sale at some price.
[1] Or perhaps that wasn't even the case maybe you have just read about other people or know someone that this was the "aggrieved" party?
[2] I was involved in trying to do this. And I communicated and had back and forth with high level people at google who in the end simply said "sorry not interested at any price". And this isn't the first time this has happened with a company either.
[3] It redirects to google.com as if they need that traffic.
Creating nothing useful is in the definition of "Investment Banker".
In that sense, investment banker is still a useful and necessary job, unlike domain squatter.
As far as "squatting on my company name" the majority of the vitriol on HN regarding domain names is not directed at "squatting on my company name" (to which there are clearly defined rules and procedures for recovering a domain (UDRP)) but just at the general idea of someone getting a domain and holding it to sell at a later date.
As far as "to either buy from them or change the company/product name" we are talking the year 2014 here. If you are starting a new company you should be taking into account whether the domain name you want is available. People don't, I know this for multiple reasons. One is that I get assignments to buy domains for startups that have already branded (which they shouldn't have done) and then come and say "I need this domain what can you do for me?" (in so many words).
Now if you are an established company and all the sudden woke up in 2014 and want your domain well then I guess that's to bad. Even back 10 years ago big corporations had this problem because the people they hired didn't know enough to lock up their domains. Either because they were inept or because they didn't feel it was important to have (so what can you say about that?)
Basically, from the same places that the manufacturer gets their money from in order to pay dividends to the investors.
Investment banking is _a_ lubricant of industry, not _the_ lubricant, certainly not the fuel.
Do you think that crowdfunding has replaced needing to raise capital through the legacy process of initial public offerings and also that companies that use investment bankers to not seek out a merger or acquisition of another company don't serve a purpose?
What do you think you just need millions to expand and walk into the bank or go to kickstarter?
Oh, and that goes against Australian domain regulations, but auDA refuse to do anything about it, sigh. Oh well, they can own a useless (to them) domain if they want to. I just think its silly.
Your logic is similar to a used car dealer buying cars that they don't plan to drive themselves, or grocery stores buying all of the food to resale in their own store.
If you have such a problem with this why don't you buy all of the domain names and then decide on who should be allowed to buy them from you? The short answer is your a lazy, unhappy individual who hates anyone who is more ambitious than yourself.
It's different because the squatter is essentially leeching off of everyone else. If it wasn't for them the people who wanted the domains could have gotten it for free or at least less. They add nothing of value at all.
One could argue the same for people who squat other scarce natural resources that they paid nothing for.
If there is a case of someone just inflating the price and adding literally no value at all then I would say that is just as bad.
Who is worthy of the domain? At least the one actually intend on using it is more worthy than the one intending to sit on it to ask for rip-off money.
Squatter are scums.
Solutions? I'd like to see something like a tax proportionate to asking price on domains, analogous to a land value tax, to discourage claiming domains that you're not actually using.
But like individuals who buy empty lots from the Forest Service to resell at a premium, can't you understand why this seems like an inefficient market outcome? Sure, it may be desirable/profitable, but not ideal?
Squatting may be a result of our domain registration system, but is it really desirable? to me it seems like a negative externality, that over-uses free domain names and which sells them for 100x times the price from a registrar, despite their non-use.
Why is a squatter adding any value? Should all domains be bought by one person who uses none for his one purposes, and sells each for 1k?
"Why is a squatter adding any value?"
Value? What is the value of gambling at the casino or horse racing? Is value the demarcation point of economic activity that is acceptable?
What value does anyone provide who has enough knowledge (and or capital) to be able to buy something in advance anticipating that someone else might find it of value at a later date? We aren't talking about cornering the market on insulin here are we? Am I allowed to buy high volume scanners on craigslist and then sell them on ebay and make money? Am I providing "value"?
"Should all domains be bought by one person who uses none for his one purposes, and sells each for 1k?"
Well what prevents you from doing this to make money? Is it that you a) don't have the capital or b) don't have the knowledge to determine what would sell at a later date or c) you just find it objectionable and desire to not be in that business. (Like porn for example..)
If "c" then can you understand that it's a valid business model, is not illegal and in a sense is about as "fair" as someone buying real estate years ago in a hot area and now expecting to make a profit off that real estate? After all there is a risk in using your capital "a" to take this chance, right? You certainly don't believe that buying a bunch of domains that you think might go up in value is guaranteed do you?
Or AFLAC.
(characters used, length, common sub-strings ...)
http://www.datagenetics.com/blog/march22012/index.html
So for example with current shorteners you have:
http://shorturl.com/{algorithm for unique URL goes here}
In the above case using a browser plug in can also eliminate any server side resolution of domains.
With this proof of concept:
http://{algorithm for unique URL goes here}.com
... Except the implementation costs $ if it is to be accepted... And to be accepted it needs to have a benefit that isn't solved by URL shorteners.
As it stands, someone typing in:
food in Chicago
will get a different URL than:
food in Chicago
And the same goes for: Chicago food, chicago food, food near Chicago, etc.
Every one, with a single character difference (extra space, different word order, capitalization difference, regional spelling like theatre vs theater, etc) will result in a different hash.
You've now made 'humanized URLs' into 'no one will guess your domain'.
It's an interesting approach to avoiding search engines, but it doesn't solve the problem that search engines do solve: multiple similar but different entries resulting in the same "appropriate"/top website result.
With this approach, not even face book, Facebook, and facebook would result in the same .com (and please don't suggest just purchasing a billion domains and redirecting them all).
>food in Chicago
>will get a different URL than:
>food in Chicago
Why?
Also, since these strings would be typed, I'm not sure the homograph attack applies. Why would someone slip in a Cyrillic letter or something while typing the URL themselves? If extended to clickable links that displayed the pre-hash text, I could see the issue, but pudquick specifically said "someone typing in" the two URLs.
- Remove duplicate spaces and punctuation - lowercase entire query (just like DNS) - Detect and normalize homographs (is this a impossible problem, or are there solutions out there already?)
In short; instead of merely mapping to [hash].com the extension could map to [hash].com, [hash].se , [hash].ly, [hash].is, [hash].ch and then use a quorum consensus of whatever answer 3 or more of those names agree on. Effectively each TLD registry (and each of your registrars), along with their regulatory environment, would lose the ability to take down your name without international agreement.
For certain niches, such a feature might be a good enough value proposition to ordinary users to convince them to install an extension.
Other observation; 36-ary is probably a better encoding for the hash data than hex. DNS isn't great with lengthy answers and every byte is worth conserving. But it's cool to see something interesting like this in the form of a browser extension.
Hash based domain names would be even worse. You have no idea what site is lurking behind some big string of hex digits. You could argue that a person should just compare the hash to some known set of hashes, but that's a. cumbersome and b. unrealistic. If it's done by humans, it's error prone (a malicious site could spoof the first few chars to point to their site), and if it's done by computers, what's the point? You've now effectively created a really shitty replacement for DNS.
So, you suggest that non english speakers should just "learn it" to use DNS?
It seems that generally a subset of sufficiently distinct characters should mostly suffice. I don't think e.g. Latin, Hebrew and Chinese have much visual overlap.
[1] http://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/idn-in-g...
[2] http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/governance/policies/secur...
[3] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5892
e.g.
I buy 'apple.com' and while if I want to leave it as this, fine. However, I should also have 'apple.com.us' and 'apple.com.ru' so that I can handle these appropriately. It's not perfect, but it at least gives my users a chance to say "hey, I probably prefer (english|russian), so please give me that page."
Of course, this is also a bit lazy and somewhat of a non-solution, as this only addresses the issue for English speakers. A russian speaker using the .ru namespace is already willing to "play by the ascii rules."
People going to 'apple.com' really expect to go to the webpage of the American electronics company. One could assume this by the TLD. Users sending a request to 'apple.рф' would be doing something somewhat strange (user sends english base label, followed by a cyrillic tld). This isn't that absurd though, as english company names become loanwords (at least in russian -- see "xerox" or even ask a russian if he owns a 'yabloko makkniga pro' or an 'apple macbook pro' for example). Should the presence of a non-unicode TLD trigger country-specific mode in browsers for the sake of security? How do we handle loanwords (spoiler to above: russians say 'apple' when referring to the brand, even though it shadows the actual Russian word for apple) with non-ascii TLDs?
Should the Cherokee syllabary be permitted in .us domains? If so, you are still open to homograph spoofing against the Latin character set(e.g. Ꭹ for y or Ꭲ for T). If not, isn't it a trifle rude to declare that writing system "unamerican"?
What about immigrant languages other than English? Why are Latin-charset language users more American than e.g. Hebrew ones like the long-standing and well-known Yiddish population of New York?
You could ban mixing of code ranges in domains. That might help, but how do you sensibly restrict a code range? Turkish is a Latin charset language, but contains a few extra characters that pose a homograph risk. How do you work out whether a domain is Turkish (and allowed to contain ı) or not Turkish? Also, what if you wanted to differentiate the website for your California-based Yiddish-named restaurant from a similarly named competitor in New York?
Should the governments of Morocco and Algeria be empowered to blanket-refuse Tifinagh domain names? What about when Georgia was part of Russia?
Well, seeing as that "huge chunk" is a large majority, then the solution isn't "learn english because I'm used to typing URLs _this_ way."
I understand that English is the current lingua franca, but it's aggressive to expect everyone to deal with it just to use the internet.
Why not use our country tlds? It might mean that ICANN has to actually do some work, but I think that the uppermost tld for countries should actually be reserved for suffixes.
e.g.
apple.us #should have never been sold apple.com.us #there, none of that scary unicode apple.com.ru #same unicode problem abound (but at least it addresses the first issue)
It is important to be first, because those who are first define the market. The market was defined in English, and what Patrick is saying, unfortunately for non-native English character set readers, is true.
They would need to invent their own separate internet, as your rebuttal suggests.
Note that you can't just type it in because kto.p? is not the right letters and that last one is obviously not on your keyboard. But cut and paste should work fine.
Using phone number doesn't require you to "learn" Math.
Is it impossible to overcome the flaws you pointed out? Is there a way to abstract away the risk from the end user? Are there other applications for this where trust is not an issue? At risk of sounding like an idiot, could some sort of distributed proof-of-work/proof-of-stake protocol alleviate some of the trust problem?
As for the apple site, there are other (better) systems in place for supplying identity information than just the url.
Unicode or not, if you type in apple.com on your English keyboard, you will go to the website of Apple, Inc. (Unless your DNS cache has been poisoned.)
Except in the case of a carefully selected unicode domain, the address bar will say 'www.paypal.com', not 'www.paypallolimstealingyourlogin.com'.
Why?
Perhaps enabling spaces in domain names is possible? Since spaces in filenames are allowed I don't see why spaces in names shouldn't be allowed. And then you could have a default root domain for natural language names - .nlp, for instance, and then just assume that name when someone types in a natural language URI with no tld.
We could use something like NameCoin for this TLD to avoid collisions.
hxxp://food in chicago.com/ encodes to hxxp://food--in--chicago.com
Pros: * Domains can now have spaces
Cons: * Domains are now case sensitive * You visit a domain and it isn't reversible * The google-juice assigned to domain names is gone