Ask HN: What's the best way to get 5% on a million dollars?

47 points by hpvic03 ↗ HN
What do you think is the best way to get the lowest risk, 5% annual return on a million dollars?

I'm also interested in how you could get 8% or 10%, though I know that would likely include more risk.

85 comments

[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 153 ms ] thread
BitCoin
I wouldn't disagree, except I'd only recommend putting a small percentage, like 1%, into it, unless the OP is a big believer. In that case, maybe 5% max. And in all cases, only put in what you can (really) afford to lose without losing too much sleep.
I think you're looking at this the wrong way. Decide the level of risk first. That dictates your stock/bond mix. After that, you get whatever the market gives you.

If you're looking for a guaranteed 5%, it doesn't exist right now, and it won't be back unless inflation spikes close to 5%.

Agreed - a well diversified portfolio of stocks and bonds across sectors and geographies is the right approach to maximise return versus risk.

I'd keep a little aside for investing where you have an unfair advantage versus Wall St. That might be getting into a tech stock early, or investing in an early stage company through friends. For the latter don't expect to get your money back soon, if ever.

(comment deleted)
AT&T pays a 5.3% dividend. Given they're still effectively splitting a monopoly with Verizon, that's pretty close to guaranteed. You'd want to track the company's quarterlies, the competition (risk of a combined Spring + T-Mobile hurting them), and any big business moves, but otherwise it's predictable. The stock itself - and your principle - would get compressed in any market down turn though. The nice thing about holding T, is that you can liquidate your entire principle at any time easily.
Even if they pay a 5.3% dividend every year, if it ends up going down even 3% in a year, suddenly you're getting effectively a 2% dividend since you've lost capital (rough numbers, no inflation, you get my point).
But not 9% that would just be weird...
I'm specifying those numbers because I expect they will each come with different risk levels. 9% is fine too.
Move to India. 9% annual return, 0 risk.
Is that the interest rate of bank accounts in india?
For Fixed deposits, Yes. Senior citizens get an additional 1%. Savings accounts are at around 4%
India's inflation is almost as high, making the real return much lower
India's inflation is around 11%. Plus after taxes you're down to 6-7%. (Indian here)
how did u arrive with the 6-7% number, just curious
(comment deleted)
There are going to be a lot of appropriately downvoted Bitcoin comments, but consider what effects the true believers being correct might have on traditionally safe investments, like bonds.
http://www.dogsoftheseason.com/

Is this true?

If not, please explain why not?

He doesn't say how to choose the right stocks. And I assume he's choosing them after the fact for his graph.

I'd be curious to see a random sampling of S&P 500 in autumn vs. spring. That would give a better idea of if it works.

(comment deleted)
> And I assume he's choosing them after the fact for his graph.

So it's possible to edit tweets or change their timestamps?

https://twitter.com/DogsOfTheSeason

Hi, I'm Tomo - the owner of the DogsOfTheSeason site.

I don't know about the timestamps, but I guess it's possible to write several stock recommendations and delete the ones that do not make profits. Also, it is possible to build dozens of sites like DOTS and promote only those who consistently earn money.

I can assure you that I don't do any manipulations with my performance. I don't do almost any marketing for DOTS. The number of my subscribers is very small and if it starts to grow significantly, I'll limit the maximum number of subscribers or raise the subscription price.

I guess there are sites that do manipulate with the performance, so you have to decide for yourself whether you're going to believe me or not.

I noticed that links on my page http://dogsoftheseason.com/subscribe (actual emails) were not working due to a missing script. Now this is fixed.

I'd buy a small newer (post 1979 construction so no rent control) rental property in San Francisco. With that much down you should be able to get it cash flow positive plus increase your equity at the same time if you needed to liquidate.
I realize this is San Francisco we are talking about but the idea that $1,000,000 is merely a down payment for a small living space is mind boggling to me (yes, I live somewhere much less desirable and much cheaper).
(comment deleted)
I think what he means is that with $1MM you'd be able to pay off a large chunk of the house which would reduce the amount of interest owed. It doesn't necessarily equate to just being a 20% down payment.
That's an interesting idea. I'll look into that.
I've been pretty lucky with Canadian bank stock.

In Canada, there's pretty much zero competition in the banking industry because of how it's regulated. The risk is generally minimal (not factoring macro economic risks) and the returns somewhat steady.

These stocks typically will return a 3% dividend plus some minimal growth. Add it all up and it's fairly easy to get a 5% return if you diversify a bit. I personally own BMO and RY. It has worked well.

I'll preface this with a disclaimer: I don't have a million dollars and I am not an investment professional. That said, as an amateur investor, my gut says that with the fed keeping interest rates low for the short term, you won't see 5% without taking on some risk. With the 10 year treasury at about 3% [1], that's about the best you will see for the time being as far as low-risk investments go. Slightly more risky but still pretty safe would be AAA corporate bonds, which are currently 4.6% [2]. To get to 8 or 10%, you'd have to get pretty risky, and go with junk bonds, or high yield dividend stocks like REITs (I've gotten 11% returns over the past 3 years with these). If you want anything higher, then you'd have to take on more risk than I have the appetite for, like angel investing.

1. http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/in... 2. http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/AAA

Can you recommend some good REITs for high dividends? Is there anything special you do when researching them?
Like I said, I'm just an amateur, so I wouldn't be qualified to recommend any stock in particular. I signed up for a an account at dividend.com and looked at their ratings to see what to invest in. Anything above 20% seemed too good to be true, so I focused on a few with yields between 10 and 15% that had long histories of paying out.
I always assumed anything that pays over 5 or 6% these days has some fundamental problem and I should stay away.

Is that not necessarily the case? Why aren't more people buying good high dividend stocks and pushing the yields down?

REITs are different from normal stocks in that they get a tax break if they distribute at least 90% of their taxable income to shareholders each year, so their yields are much higher. REIT yeilds (and stock prices) should continue to rise now that housing prices are rising, and the overall improvement in the economy is creating growth in commercial real estate.
Disclaimer: I'm not a financial advisor, I don't play one on TV, and I don't have a million dollars or equivalent.

Take $10,000 (1%), and accept it as money worth spending. Network well, contact friends, family and ideally successful professionals and discover a financial advisor you can trust. Get empirical proof of this, as many may just be out to fleece clients - and worse, think they're actually doing a good job.

In terms of getting good advice, accept that money will have to be on the table. People have to make a living, and if there's nothing to gain, then why should a good professional waste their time? My hunch is that a good financial advisor will be happy to take a lump sum consultancy fee, rather than a percentage management fee, just to give you general advice - especially one that knows their clients are your friends and will react to any stupidity the financial advisor says.

With that money set aside and taken as ceded to the task of figuring out how to manage your money, take some time out and learn enough to make reasoned decisions. Research, study, understand the basics and importantly - understand the absolutely stupid and worst options, and the worst that sound like the best. It won't get you that much time, but it gets you more than nothing.

Given you're making 5% minimum, a 1% loss can be fixed in a year and regain you access to any of the funds that you fell below the minimum for. But the time and effort spent now is better than finding out in ten years that the risk-free 5% growth option was actually highly risky indeed....

> In terms of getting good advice, accept that money will have to be on the table. People have to make a living, and if there's nothing to gain, then why should a good professional waste their time? My hunch is that a good financial advisor will be happy to take a lump sum consultancy fee, rather than a percentage management fee, just to give you general advice - especially one that knows their clients are your friends and will react to any stupidity the financial advisor says.

Perhaps if OP consults a sworn fiduciary? I've not much experience with either of these, but theoretically a fiduciary is supposed to legally act in your benefit at all times where as a financial advisor isn't really.

I have no idea, though. I don't have much money. This is something I read somewhere.

While I agree with the general concept, investing 10k comes with a substantially different cost/risk/benefit profile to investing 1,000k. The 1% rule is a great general rule for a single investment, but to invest 99% of your porfolios gain on 1% risk seems like asking for 1995 google stock.

My personal investment in this profile is about 10k per position [equity] and up to 15k per position [option risk] - where a position is defined by the total risk as affected by the underlying stock - you still could end up with 100 positions with a 1mm portfolio, but usually by 20-30, you find ones that you understand well and have reason to believe are undervalued -- those are when you break the 1% rule, and you do it a couple of times. Some will become worth less than 1%, some more than 10%. Re-balance judiciously, hold if it produces income greater than its risk, and sell anything not nailed down when someone offers you a gold-laying goose for it -- you can always by short-term risk with options if you're that confident, and cash is infinantly more exchangeable to immediate needs than paper stocks held at the DTC are to your grocer.

Depending on your age, if you have little to no investment experience, i'd check out the professional lists at fool.com (rule your retirement, etc) - those are the profiles I put my family in. If you're bored and looking to day-trade, there are similar lists for options, but those are for play money or experienced readers, not retirement money.

Great comment, although I think I didn't make the intended use of the 10k quite clear enough. Whilst one way of spending it is in live experimentation, yes, and that can be a very good option, I meant it more in a "be prepared to pay for help, with the only return being knowledge" sense
Buy a flat in Battersea, London, get some letting agency to manage it for you and reap the rewards:

http://www.londonpropertywatch.co.uk/average_rental_yield.ht...

Who cares if you are pricing someone else out of a place to live in London? Seemingly nobody cares. The government love it that there is rampant house price inflation. The ride should be good for a while. Wherever you put your money it will not be immune to the next big crisis of capitalism, in London property you will be well insulated.

As well as the return in rental, you will also have a property that will appreciate in value over time. Sure you might have to sit things out when the property market is depressed, but I would be surprised if your $1M flat is worth less than that in 5+ years time even if the whole housing market goes 2008-style again.

Use it all to buy shares of DNP. At today's closing price of 9.34, the monthly dividend of 6.5cents will net you 8.35% per year (not counting compounding, higher if you have a divident reinvestment plan). After taxes you should still be above 5%.
Please be careful and understand what type of fund this is before choosing this investment.
The best and only way is to educate yourself, so that you won't be at the mercy of financial advisors (who are just salesmen) or flawed financial products.
Yes. Increase your financial IQ, as it were. My wife and I run a service business to keep bread (organic) on the table, hired our first coach, researched, and are now purchasing investment properties that realize >= 9% on investment, and since they cash flow, continue providing returns. In addition to all of the tax advantages (we live in the US, so US tax law, but similar elsewhere).

Now we just hired our second coach, and will be learning paper asset strategies for cash flow and for capital generation to continue purchasing real estate.

FWIW: I think that we are successful so far because we believe in ourselves and put in the hours and sweat.

(comment deleted)
If you use Wealthfront (www.wealthfront.com), a risk score of 6.5/10 supposedly has a median return of 5%/year.

Pretty risky, though. Over 70% stocks.

How does that compare to Betterment?
Wealthfront is very rigid on its asset allocation. You pick a risk score, and that's it.

Thus, they can do some pretty interesting things that Betterment can't. Such as, if your assets are more than 500k, they replace the S&P 500 index with all 500 stocks, which increases the amount of tax loss harvesting.

Municipal bonds will yield 5-7%, very safe, all will be state tax free, some are also federal tax free.

LendingClub can yield 10%+. You have to be pretty engaged, since you'll need to loan a small amount to a lot of people. At $1M, probably $2,500 to each of 400 people so the risk of default (there will be defaults) is diversified. You'll have to actively re-invest the principle/interest. But it pays back monthly and is kind of like paying yourself a salary in some respects.

Do you have personal experience with LendingClub? I'm curious as to how reliable their returns are and how much work it takes.
Yes. I've been experimenting for about 8 months. You need to attend to it at least on a monthly basis. The payments start to add up and you either want to take them out for spending, or reinvest them to keep the interest coming.

The key metric for LendingClub is the predicted default rate. If they are accurate, you can have good predictability of results and good returns. If not, then it's a long term problem for them. One might assume that their algorithm should improve as they get more data, and I'd love to hear from their modeling statisticians how that works, though it seems pretty close to their core IP. So I am taking it on faith a bit that they will get that part right.

My experiment was to lend $25 to 100 people. I loaned to the same rated borrowers so I did not have to deal with too much tracking. All pay 17.6% and there was a 5% predicted default rate and about 0.65% fees. Net yeild to me was predicted to be 11.95%. Fees are only paid on what is actually paid back to me.

At this time, 8 months in, I have 99 current 3 more than 31 days late 0 defaulted 0 charged off 2 repaid in full 11 sold at full price

The reason there are 115 total is that I loaned to more borrowers as payments came in.

I also put 15 up for sale on LendingClub's sister site to see how one might exit. 11 sold in a couple of days. The other 4 are still offered. Not sure why they have not sold yet, I put them up for sale last Friday.

The actual 'Net Annualized Return' as calculated by LendingCLub on my notes is 18.07%. That is expected to drop each time there is a charge-off.

I do expect some of the >31 day late to fall into charge off, but you can review the contact history between LendingClub and the borrower when LendingClub is trying to collect late payments. Checking one right now, I see that a payment is processing, so it looks like they are back on track.

I just searched on http://www.infochoice.com.au/banking/savings-account/term-de...

and it returned a 5% p.a. term deposit with RaboDirect for a 5 year term on amounts from $1000 to $2,000,000.

http://www.infochoice.com.au/banking/term-deposits/rabodirec...

I suspect the OP has USD, and that the RaboDirect account will be in AUD. Investing in AUD would be a bold investment approach, and certainly not risk free.
Probably!

Interestingly, if I had $1m to invest and split it with my wife, with Australia's tax cutting in at 19c for each $1 over $18,200 up to $37,000, we would pay $2584. Since we have children, we qualify for a tax break called the family tax benefit [1], which would pay $13,773 per year. Total post-tax return would be $61,189. A yield of 6.12%, risk free! Now where did I put my million dollars?

[1] http://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/enablers/online-est...

Clearly not a good question to ask on HN... surprised bitcoin hasn't been mentioned yet :-)

edit: it has now. I rest my case.

(comment deleted)
Just buy the S&P and make 30% a year. The Fed's got your back! If that's not good enough, buy the Nasdaq or Russell.
I would buy property in Marin County if I had a million dollars. One house. A neighbor moved next to me. I scared him away--I think? (another story). He was in his house for 5 months and made 90 grand on on a $650,000 investment. It's a weird market here.

I'm thoroughly convinced 90% of stock gains are made through inside information. I thought the Internet would level out the playing field, but it seems like the wealthy "connected" types are always in a bull market? (This year was an exception--everyone seemed to make money if they bought stocks?)

As to leveling out the winners in the stock market; I hope some young dude makes an app--a app that would help investors who don't have wealthy friends. And Stocktwits in not that app.

(I see a lot of posters advising on making money off renters. Personally, I couldn't live with myself making a huge profit on Renters. A nice family moves in and can just afford the rent, and the Landlord continually raises the rent. It's not moral. Sorry, but a place to stay, especially if the family has kids, is more than just a Revenue Stream. )

Buy a house in Australia.