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Aren't there antitrust laws to protect against this exact sort of thing?
Indeed. This is not a good thing for consumers. Comcast is way too big as it is and does not need to dominate the market any more than it already does.

My former company was the market leader and acquired the #2 player and gov't eventually stepped and force sold off a significant part of the acquired company including allowing the new buyer to give hire offers to anyone in that company which probably 75% of them took (or left). My guess is Comcast has better lobbyists and nothing will happen and execs will be congratulated by the regulators.

It doesn't violate anti-trust laws to buy another company you do not compete with. And there are very few, if any, territories where Comcast and TWC directly compete at present – depending on where you live, you can subscribe to one or the other (or some other cable company), but not both.
but... they only don't compete because of govt sanctioned monopoly status in the first place, no?
Originally (and perhaps still in some specific areas), yes. Most regions have deregulated though, which is why FiOS, U-Verse and Google Fiber TV are able to exist.

But the infrastructure costs for Comcast to build out a brand new network in TWC territories (or vice-versa) on a mass scale would be pretty high.

For the sake of comparison (Google Fiber): http://news-beta.slashdot.org/story/12/12/08/1810244/nationw...

"pretty high" but they've got $45b to 'invest' in buying out competition, instead of spending a fraction of that to compete head to head in specific markets, then eventually more markets?

If it's deregulated, then they can enter the market and compete on service and price, not buy up the competition so there's no chance of anyone else ever being able to enter. TWC has been pretty active in trying to prevent municipal fiber in NC, and I suspect with even more money/muscle/lobby power behind them, it will be easier to squash any semblance of competition in any form.

It's an all-stock deal though. Comcast isn't actually paying any money (in fact I believe they still have a significant amount of debt from buying NBC), instead they're proposing giving TWC shareholders the equivalent of $45B in new Comcast shares in exchange for giving up their collective ownership of TWC.

But yeah, Comcast and TWC's recent lobbying efforts in general sound pretty suspect. Not defending that aspect by any means.

As a TWC customer I've been long certain based on conversations with others that I have the second worst cable company in the country. So my reaction to this announcement is approximately "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK."
I can confirm that you do.

Nothing in your life has prepared you for Comcast.

We had Comcast in Cali, in Texas TW was a breath of fresh air, about 3 years ago all these weird fees kept showing up. A year ago we were fed up and dropped all but Internet, went digital TV OTA (over the air) plus Roku and Netflix (my brother clued me in that Netflix actually had streaming now). Roku has some interesting channels we never got on any cable.

Now we could be back with ... Comcast? Yuk. Hey as long as they don't mess with our current unlimited plan with TWC, I guess we can deal with them.

Have you ever noticed the prices on the TWC site for new subscribers? How they say something like "down from." What does that mean to you? To me, it means the regular price is one thing but that new subscribers get a deal.

As it turns out that is incorrect. The higher price is an arbitrary number, not the retail value of the package.

I asked a TWC representative once where on their website I can find the retail price of their plans and his response was "You won't find them anywhere."

The baseline I had from years of living in a Comcast market is so rotten that I really was deeply, fervently in love with TWC for the first year or so after I moved to a market that they own. It was hard for me to believe that a cable company could really be that awesome.

Upshot being. . . yeah, Comcast is so heinous that simply spending any amount of time in contact with them will actually warp your mind.

In the past 5 years, I've had Comcast, Insight, TWC, and FIOS. (TWC bought out my previous ISP, Insight, less than a year ago)

By far Comcast was the worst of my experiences.

I was proud of the DOJ Antitrust division when they objected to the ATT/T-Mobile merger. I can only hope they do the same here.
It's a bit different in this situation. Comcast and Time Warner do not currently compete with each other.
Something tells me that if that's the linchpin for the deal going through, it's not an accident.
It's definitely not, these companies trade territory, and when an upstart that's not part of the collusion (like Verizon FIOS) comes in, they finally upgrade and cut prices on that part of their network to be competitive, so that it's not profitable for them to come in.
Sad but true. They should deny the acquisition and then launch a lawsuit for unfair competition/collusion.
and now, they never will, which would be the focal point of any antitrust attack.

Also, the DOJ does not have sole authority to challenge. Here is the breakdown for telecommunications (taken from DOJ website, http://www.justice.gov/atr/icpac/3b.htm)

  Telecommunications. Mergers involving telecommunications    
  service providers usually are subject to competition policy 
  review or challenge by:


  One of the federal antitrust agencies (only the DOJ has 
  jurisdiction to review mergers involving telephone 
  companies; both the DOJ and the FTC have reviewed mergers 
  between cable television firms);

  The Federal Communications Commission (FCC);(8)

  The PSC of each state in which the parties do business 
  (although most state PSCs lack jurisdiction over cable   
  television mergers and some lack jurisdiction over mergers);

  In the case of cable television, county and municipal   
  authorities with responsibility for granting and overseeing 
  cable franchise agreements;

  The attorney general of each state in which the merging 
  parties do business; and

  Private entities such as competitors to the merging parties.
  As with mergers involving electric power firms, review by 
  any of these entities is nonexclusive. Approval of a 
  transaction by one entity does not preclude a separate 
  challenge by any of the other entities, nor does it bar 
  another entity from seeking adjustments that exceed 
  concessions that resolved the concerns of other bodies.

I suspect the DOJ (who has sole jurisdiction in telecommunications) will object, and that comcast is just willing to fight it out in court.
Isn't that simply because they have a "gentlemans agreement" not to have overlapping coverage, so that (to an individual customer) they are essentially a monopoly?
Or cable is just a natural monopoly.
The physical network is absolutely a natural monopoly - the cost to run copper out to every house in a region is fixed, and any player in the market would need to do just that in order to compete effectively. From a cost efficiency perspective, the ideal number of such networks is one, just as it is for electricity and water.

What's different is that electricity tends to be heavily regulated, and water is generally a public utility. Cable providers are historically under no such constraint, because we tend to think of them as television content providers first and foremost, and the TV bit of the business is not a natural monopoly. Unfortunately that is where they make their money, and that leads to some really obnoxious behavior, including price gouging people who want their network services but not a TV content subscription.

Probably the best solution would be to go the same route that many other countries do and require network operators to share network bandwidth with anyone who can pay for it. That would allow us to re-instate market competition on top of the bit where it cannot occur naturally, while still allowing them to maintain their regularly scheduled TV industry whatever-ness.

Cable TV also seems like a natural monopoly for the same reason as cable Internet — the cost of running the cable itself. Even before cable modems, most places only had one cable company. And my understanding is that cable franchise agreements were written with that assumption. Maybe I don't understand your argument, though.
Different layers of the OSI model are different. Everything up to layer 3 on the local network is a natural monopoly. But above there it's not, and outside that local network it's not.

In the US, this fact was pretty clearly demonstrated when the regulatory overhaul of the telephone industry in the 1990s introduced competition by requiring owners of the local copper to share it, and also by how people are able to choose their long distance carrier. The latter would be analogous to being able to choose among any number of ISPs while still using the same copper to handle the last mile.

I'm not an expert, but I think what you describe is exactly what happened with telephone service in the United States (i.e, the breakup of Ma Bell, etc.)
It wasn't the breakup of Ma Bell, but the telecommunications deregulation bill of the mid '1990s did include a provision that required local phone service operators to sell access to their network to newcomers at wholesale prices.

Unfortunately, cable companies live under a different set of regulations, so the same rules don't apply to them. Meanwhile the industry progressed to the point that in many markets companies that were once just cable and phone companies now offer the same menu of services. But the law hasn't changed to keep up with that, so the net result is that we've got a regulatory regime that cripples an already anemic competitive environment by arbitrarily giving an enormous advantage to only one of the players.

If that's true then they're already violating anti-trust
Right, by design, which is the reason I have crap internet service and no real choices. It's collusion, pure and simple, I don't know why it has been allowed to go on for so long.
Who benefits from large corporate mergers like this? What does an all stock deal mean at that kind of magnitude?

It certainly feels like little else than a handshake deal to create a monopoly.

At a minimum you can expect to fire some staff. You don't need two marketing departments coming up with ads, for instance. It won't quite be half the staff, but salaries are expensive (health care too).
Bigger scale, lower combined costs, more negotiating clout with TV channel operators, etc.
So monopoly
Well, they're still competing with your local telco (AT&T / Verizon), DirecTV, Dish Network, and Google Fiber and/or others in some areas. (Though granted some of those are TV-only, not Internet.)

Not really much different than how Comcast and TWC are individually competing right now (as their service areas don't overlap). Though I'm not suggesting either one is a shining paragon of customer service or fair pricing (I don't have any first-hand experience to speak of there; I'm in Canada).

Who benefits from large corporate mergers like this?

At first, the deal makers: executives, bankers, lawyers, auditors, consultants and assorted advisors.

Down the road... nobody.

In a word, shareholders. Many won't benefit but there is money in this sort of deal and it is likely going to the business owners.
"Who benefits from large corporate mergers like this?"

You might think the share holders. Not correct. Though they don't lose.

Think: the law firms handling the deal. This type of deal is worth millions in fees; banks - both investment (for finding the cash) and traditional (for providing the cash); and the governments which would levy taxes and fees. And of course anything below the public view (kick-backs, trips, outright campaign donations). I mean it's no surprise they picked a campaign year to merge. ;) The companies have probably been talking about this for at least a year.

It might not go through. If there is enough back lash from other companies. Happened with ATT recently. What will matter are other content providers (Disney, Fox, Viacom, etc etc) - though it wouldn't surprise me if they get certain guarantees they we won't know about.

Netflix doesn't really have any muscle on the ground to fight this. But if they could form a coalition of sorts, with the likes of Amazon, Google, Apple, FB, Twitter, (maybe even) MS and Sony (they have a stake in this too), etc, etc - combined they'd be a formidable force that Commcast/TM would have to deal with.

And then there's us. But I hold little hope for the american public to rally around any cause. Plus too many are too easily swayed.

My hope lies in a the coalition of net companies I mentioned.

Oh, boy. Charter wanted them, badly.
If this merger goes thru, (and the AnitTrust people would have to be really asleep at the wheel for that) two things are certain:

1) Americans can expect some of the worst Cable price gouging they have ever seen

2) NetFlix, Amazon Prime et al will become really popular as a result of all the customers saying "FU ComcastWarner"

3) Centralizes putting the neutrality screws to Netflix, Amazon Prime, Itunes, et al.
I don't think your second premise is entirely true, since Comcast doesn't provide enough bandwidth for streaming services like Netflix and YouTube already. Those services are going to become harder and harder to use if anything.
I have no problem with Netflix on Comcast's lowest tier. 6mbps, 10 TV channels.
Literally the same situation here.

No throttling yet

I just hope it doesn't take 10 years for fiber to get to Chicago

The presence of AT&T and Windstream probably keeps the local form of Comcast from falling too far.
That's good to hear, I just moved to Chicago and my biggest fear was using these big named companies because of all the horror stories.
This would be a perfect point for the regulators to harp on for approval... No need to divest, just require a condition of the sale to provide a neutral network.
Which they did when Comcast bought NBC.
Does Comcast compete with Time Warner? I thought they had geographically separate monopolies
I don't think they compete directly in vast majority of markets and for this to go through they will surely forfeit those smaller contested ones.

I think this will go through. Then they will have a huge "content and subscriber" stick to wave around at Aereo, Netflix, Apple and anyone else wanting to play the net content hero.

> Then they will have a huge "content and subscriber" stick to wave around at Aero, Netflix, Apple and anyone else wanting to play the net content hero.

That's really the play here. Get a ton more captive users in order to better extort Netflix et al for access to those customers, and beat that stick until all their over the top service competitors are either out of business or uncompetitive. Then the real screwing of customers can commence in earnest.

Cheaper and faster urban mobile networks will take over before that reality is allowed for an extended period of time in some protracted way.
Err, simple physics ensures mobile will never have the bandwidth of copper wire. Every band and protocol can be transmitted over the wire to each node independently.
I think people are overly optimistic about the ability to endlessly increase the performance of wireless networks. The existing networks make fairly efficient use of the spectrum they're allocated. That means you really only have two options to make it go faster.

1) More spectrum. But it's massively in demand (read: expensive), nobody wants to give any up, and even if you had "all" the spectrum there are still practical physical limits about how much data you can transmit without using a wavelength that won't penetrate walls.

2) More towers that each use lower power. This is the one that can get you almost arbitrarily large amounts of wireless bandwidth, but it's also the one whose cost converges on the cost of building a new fiber optic network as the number of towers you need approaches the number of users you have.

Neither one of those is going to make for an inexpensive roll out of a wireless network capable of handling Netflix's video traffic to millions of customers simultaneously in the same city.

3) Municipal fiber-optic lines that ISPs can lease access to in order to provide service to customers. Boom, no more monopolies.
You'll be wanting WSPs (waste service providers) to lease access to sewage pipes next. Where will it all end?
That would also be a great idea.

Leasing infrastructure works great in lots of cases.

The difference between the sewer and broadband is that the price of giving sewer district a monopoly is regulation as a public utility.

So if whomever runs your sewer decides that they will not accept solid waste anymore, there is a regulator who will prohibit that from happening.

In many states, the Public Service Commission or similar entity has lots of regulatory authority over cable television, landline and electric rates, but no authority over cellular or broadband. Shockingly, the utilities have invested nothing in the regulated markets for 20 years.

Worth noting that this is illegal to some extent in ~19 states. The broadband oligopoly already thought of this, and has been working to pre-empt it for a while.
So get on it. Find your local city/state reps, tell them you want this, and do it.

Places all over the US have already done so, but someone has to show there is local demand.

This is what I was wondering. I live in an area that only had comcast an no other option. When I visit places it seems to be either Time Warner and Comcast but not usually both.
Another problem is that Comcast is an internet provider for a lot of people. It's actually my only option right now, so if I want to access that Netflix subscription, I still need to pay Comcast, so point 1) will make that all the worse since it's already clear they throttle heavily on Netflix, this will only make the degraded experience even more expensive.
Looks like a VPN service for a few dollars more could let people circumvent the throttling.
Sort of. I stream from Apple TV so this doesn't work for me and it shouldn't be required :P
That works for now, but I don't understand why it's unthinkable that Comcast start throttling VPN services, too.
> 2) NetFlix, Amazon Prime et al will become really popular as a result of all the customers saying "FU ComcastWarner"

Not when they're direct competitors to Comcast, Comcast is the only ISP for most people, and Comcast can legally charge Netflix et al out of the market.

> 2) NetFlix, Amazon Prime et al will become really popular as a result of all the customers saying "FU ComcastWarner"

I agree with your first point, but your second point doesn't follow. If anything, Comcast will price gouge Netflix out of business, and we'll be back to being stuck watching their awful "On Demand" instead.

They can do this, because Comcast owns the content (NBC), the delivery mechanism for said content (cable TV), and the only delivery mechanism (broadband Internet) for their competitor (Netflix/Amazon Prime).

On the other hand, the (failed) merger attempt between AT&T and T-Mobile was the best thing to happen to consumers in a long time, due to the breakup fee that AT&T had o pay T-Mobile($1+ billion worth of spectrum).

I'm trying to imagine a similar silver lining that could happen here, though I can't think of any.

To play devil's advocate, what it means is that Comcast has the better business model. After all, that's why Apple and Samsung dominate the cellular industry. iApps running on iOS running on an iPhone using an Apple A7 offers the ability to optimize the user experience and integrate the layers that vendors doing things piecemeal can't match.

If Netflix et al want to survive, they have to evolve from being mere middlemen, funneling someone else's content through someone else's pipes.

Google has threatened to go nuclear over net neutrality and open up their dark fiber network should things get ugly. Google has more fiber than most any one single company in the us and could be a legitimate threat should comwarner try to call their bluff. I have a feeling google would win that fight
I would love to see Google enter that fight instead of trying to regulate their competition away. Not because I'm that anti regulation, but because I don't appreciate the irony of Silicon Valley always bitching about regulation, but then demanding that the government create an artificial reality where owning the pipes doesn't give you a natural competitive advantage.
Would you appreciate it if one supermarket bought all the food and then price gouged you 100 dollars for meat?

I don't see how a monopoly helps anyone but the corporation, and even then just in dollars today. Strangling the entire market doesn't help anyone in the long run.

Actually, they wouldn't arbitrarily price their products that way. Companies engage in a little thing called price discrimination. The only difference in a monopoly is that you are the sole price leader. That doesn't mean you can arbitrarily set the price high. Most cable companies have monopolies thru license in municipalities.
>That doesn't mean you can arbitrarily set the price high.

You can if you corner the market and the good is required like food is.

You'll get your stores raided if you control and gouge something like food and water though, possibly ending with a head in a grocery cart. Police might even help.

Cable has a bit more leeway with the crowd I'd imagine, though there'd still definitely be consequences. Just not as dramatic consequences. I'd hope people protest gouged cable prices peacefully.

Just try. But first, you'll want a refresher on the French Revolution, letting the starving "eat cake" and the amazing effectiveness of guillotines.
Somehow that doesn't work this way. In israel monopolies and price gouging of food is pretty common(not 100X, but maybe 2x), and i haven't seen no violent acts.
I'm not denying the antitrust concern of the union. I'm pointing out the hipocrisy of certain generally anti-regulation Silicon Valley companies trying to use antitrust law to preserve the viability of their role as middlemen. At the end of the day, Netflix's business model is inherently fragile. Amazon is somewhat better positioned, because they at least provide the upstream infrastructure. I think they know they need to play the last mile game, just as they're exploring doing on the physical goods side with drones and special deals with USPS.
I wonder if torrent/p2p would be a viable business model for Netflix. Think about it : they have a massive install base inside comcast where they can run programs and on most such programs they can run code, and store data.

Solution seems obvious.

P2P isn't a good architecture for something like that. You pull data from a leaf node, through the core network, back to another leaf node, traversing the relatively slow last mile coax part of the network twice. Meanwhile, a relatively small number of movies and shows will dominate the demand, which Comcast can easily cache near the edges of its network. There is a reason Netflix is vying to get equipment in those spots.
note that Netflix runs on Amazon
I know. That's why Amazon is better positioned. They at least own the upstream infrastructure. Netflix is utterly dependent on three other industries, but is itself pretty easily replaceable. The had a first mover advantage in getting favorable content licensing deals before anyone thought it would matter, but that's fading fast as those deals are renegotiated. And its value add is totally fungible. People care about the content and will happily use another provider if they have the content. Netflix' foray into original content is an existential move.
Except it's not really that dependent on Amazon - there are nearly perfect substitutes for every AWS service.

Comcast is different because it already operates as a monopoly in many areas, and it's trying to change the rules so that it can leverage that monopoly, to the detriment of everyone but themselves, and there's not really anything that anyone but the regulators can do about it.

Comcast has a huge advantage owning the pipes into my house, but they squander it. Rather than provide services, they become highway robbers on their own toll road. Comcast could have been netflix, akamai and so much more years ago. So tell me how they don't have advantage?
> Comcast could have been netflix Netflix offers incredible value. Don't you think it's irrational for Comcast to offer up this value at the expense of their own profits when they are not being threatened? They are going to milk it for as long as they can.
Milking it is not a rational choice, expected but not rational. Comcast should have make the Roku, but due to a fixation on the analog cable infrastructure they did not. The amount of analog bandwidth they devote on their networks to digital traffic is a ridiculously small percentage of their capacity.

Comcast should have created the caching infrastructure that Akamai did. Comcast should have implemented cloud backup services. They have the capability to have 50+ Mbps from the customer to their datacenters. This is freak'n huge.

Why didn't comcast create a colo system so that providers could get as close as possible to the customer?

No, Comcast will go down with the Titanic with all of their riches. They have squandered more than they have protected.

If utility natural monopolies weren't regulated they wouldn't exist because local governments wouldn't allow them to dig up roads to put in their infrastructure.
This would be fun to watch unfold.
Citation?

There is no use for Google to participate in long-haul wholesale. There is a lot of supply there. The real issue is last mile, where consumers have no choice.

>There is a lot of supply there.

But the rules just changed. It remains to be seen what those guys will do. But I agree that the last-mile competition, or lack of it is far more important.

That's what Google Fiber is, which is (slowly) rolling out to multiple cities.
Really? The last time I checked, the cost for fiber optic back-haul was ridiculous! I need to get some new quotes within the next few months, though- we shall see.
Except people often have no choice about which ISP they can use, whereas people have at least some choices in the mobile phone space.
Comcast is relying on last mile monopoly. Samsung/Apple have alternatives.
> To play devil's advocate, what it means is that Comcast has the better business model. After all, that's why Apple and Samsung dominate the cellular industry.

That is devil's idiot. I can choose between 4 different cell carriers and dozens of smartphone makers. Many people only have one option if they want >10Mbps internet.

Fortunately I get to choose between Optimum and FiOS. Optimum gives me 60/25 for the basic rate to keep me from switching to FiOS.

I was addressing chimeracoder's point about vertical integration. There might be tons of Android manufactures peddling phones, but Apple and Samsung are eating up all the profits because they are verticicaly integrated. That's the major play Comcast is making.

I wouldn't be surprised to see this coming soon to wireless. Imagine movie caching servers integrated into the backhaul network instead of going over the public internet. The improvement in QoS would make being a Netflix type entity untenable.

He wasn't making a point about vertical integration, but rather about monopoly power. Perdue and Tyson are vertically integrated. They own feed mills, hatcheries, grow farms, packing plants, and distribution. No one cares because you can always just pick the package of chicken that costs $3.29 instead of $3.59.

I also don't see how Samsung is vertically integrated. They don't make the OS, the App store, or have content/DRM. They have in-house manufacturing, but Apple doesn't. The two companies are vertically integrated in totally different ways, thus vertical integration is a weak argument for their success.

See his second paragraph about owning NBC.
That was also about monopoly power. If NBC were an independent entity, they would license their back catalogue to the highest bidder. Given that NBC is owned by a cable company, the strategy changes. The current dynamic for NBC is, if we license to Netflix, then some people will cut the cord, lowering Comcast/TWC cable revenue. The bigger Comcast is, the less likely NBC is willing to license content to Netflix. If NBC were independent, they would maximize their own revenue, but because they are owned by Comcast, NBC's decisions are to optimize profits for the combined company which is likely not in the interest of consumers.
This is the case regulators should make for putting conditions on the merger. Comcast should be forced to divest from NBC/Universal and agree not to acquire additional content. That would create a significant benefit for consumers.
That describes a vertical monopoly, which is not prohibited. If Apple hadn't acquired PA Semi, they would be selling their products on the open market to the highest bidder, etc. Same situation.
Sure. Having a government backed monopoly is usually the better business model.
>To play devil's advocate, what it means is that Comcast has the better business model. After all, that's why Apple and Samsung dominate the cellular industry.

what?? Does Apple or samsung have any control on how much carriers charge?

By your logic, ATT wireless, verizon wireless, and other cell carriers have to make their own cell phone and not just be a middlemen that funnel someone else's content on someone else's smartphone.

Why precisely does Netflix need to "evolve"? I like Netflix just fine as it is, thank you very much. The totality of current online businesses are using "someone else's pipes", so framing that as a criticism strikes me as distinctly hollow.
I would say it needs to "adapt" to harsher market conditions created by these mergers, net neutrality gone, etc.
Online businesses by and large use other people's pipes and that inherently makes them all vulnerable. Its like apps on iOS. Apple will always capture most of the value created by the ecosystem as a while, because they control the platform. App developers have little leverage. Its not profitable to be a sharecropper, but that's what online businesses largely are. Regulating and commoditizing the communications infrastructure into "dumb pipes" (I.e. net neutrality) is the only around that. Its regulation that picks winners and losers by telling an entire industry that they have to produce a commodity product so that online businesses can be protected from a flaw intrinsic to their business model.
Apple is an integration house. The screen and the A7 are actually fabricated by Samsung. They would have a tough time going it alone.
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This, I believe, is why Netflix is producing original content. Outside the US they license it to traditional networks as well (I've seen adverts for House of Cards recently through Sky here in Germany).
Comcast should not be allowed to own NBC

If this deal goes through, both companies should have to sell off all content companies and become strictly utility access providers.

Netflix partnering with, or potentially acquired by, Amazon to take on other platforms makes sense. There needs to be consolidation and I think Bezos could do a better job bringing in bigger licensing deals.
So your solution to defeating a monopoly is to form a monopoly?
That is called duopoly, and is less bad than a monopoly.
A duopoly might help in America but for the rest of us (at least where I'm from) competition is working fine. I can choose between around 5 different providers for internet and/or TV with prices starting at as little as $35 per month for unlimited internet at around 20mbps download speed. I can also choose online between Netflix, Amazon/LoveFilm, free demand services such as BBC iPlayer, ITV Player, 4OD, and paid on demand services that come with certain TV packages (SKY on demand). In the UK competition in this space has never looked better in my opinion. It always amazes me that America, the champion of the free market, has such a fucked up telecoms (and by extension TV) industry.
If you're in the UK, Zen Internet now offer £25/month truly unlimited fibre broadband. ~80mbps down, ~20mbps up, no traffic shaping / AUP or anything. I am so happy with my internet right now.
Thanks for the tip - looks like fibre isn't available in my area yet though.
The $35 includes most calls (all local and ten most-called/chosen national and mobile numbers are free on my package from the last three providers) and line rental. Add another $15 for TV licence.

The competition here is from Local Loop Unbundling [1], where the non-ISP part of BT, BT Openreach, works on the exchanges and cabinets. Rollout stats [2], compare Scotland and London for the rural/city development. There's up to 9 choices in London, I would expect iPlayer would work on all of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_the_United_Kingdom#... https://www.samknows.com/broadband/statistics/regional

Yeah, it's ridiculous, even to this American.

The best way I can explain it is that it's putting the accent more on "free" than on "market", and it's a 14-year-old's definition of free: "You can't make me do anything! YOU'RE NOT MY DAD!"

However, I worry that the more accurate explanation is that it is a neofeudal structure cloaked in free-market terms.

Google is already positioning similarly with YouTube, Google Fiber, and plays for wireless service here and in floating balloons around the planet.

Tripilolopopy

Netflix can hardly be called a monopoly. I cancelled in 2013 because it had such a tiny catalog.

Besides, if it doesn't equal bittorrent, what is an amoral person going to choose? I think I'll choose s/stealing/borrowing/.

Amazon already have a film-on-demand service called LOVEFiLM.com.
That's U.K.; for America at least, we have Prime instant video.
Are either any good? Better than NF or Hulu+? Cost?
They might want Netflix to survive in some form so as to avoid awaking the sleeping antitrust dogs. Same way as Microsoft found the Mac a useful argument against the "desktop monopoly" argument in the 90s.
If they cared about that, I don't think they would be throttling Netflix.
They would simply enforce draconian bandwidth caps to disincentivize streaming altogether.

It's not like many of their users could opt for a different service, anyway.

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I seem to remember that pointing at the Mac as a defense against desktop monopoly charges didn't work out too well for them in the end.
What happened to MS in the alternate universe where MS openly vowed to crush Netscape and were as good as their word, after Apple went bankrupt in the early 90s?
They lost their antitrust case, which most of the harshest judgements were reduced or overturned later in appeal. In the end it was determined that they were a monopoly, the results of which include the things you mentioned, and some of their long held business practices had to be changed. After that Netscape eventually came back, and better, as Firefox and Apple doesn't seem to be doing so badly these days.

I'm not understanding your point about an alternate universe in your statement. I must be missing something.

And how would this 'FU ComcastWarner' work in America? Anywhere you live you only have the choice of paying your cable provider, your telephone carrier or your wireless carrier for internet. - DSL infrastructure hasn't evolved in a decade or more. You're lucky to get mid-single digit megabits/sec. I had 0.7 mpbs offered to me in Mountain View by at&t. - Cable is the only speedy one, but they can price gouge you, limit the amount of traffic (see Comcast) and decide who to prioritize - Wireless is getting faster, but is severely limited in transfer packages. You'd be paying an arm and leg just to get a few Gigabytes in total per month.

So tell me - how does this 'FU ComcastWarner' gonna work? Move to the one or two towns that have alternative internet (e.g. Fibre)?

We could all pressure our local governments to provide municipal internet. Many cities have already created services that are much faster too.
Unless/until the state or local governments pass laws that make that illegal and grant even stronger de facto monopolies to the cable companies.
We control our government. If they fail to act in our best interest it is our fault.
You're being very naive, Comcast has more control and access to government then 'we'.
One man, one vote.

One fat wallet, one million votes.

Too late. The DSL & Cable monopolies are lobbying like hell to make municipal broadband illegal, and have succeeded many places.
Internet providers need to quit playing these shenanigans all the time.

What they do is they build public roads. You wouldn't allow a company to build a public road, and then go:

"Safeway trucks get a free pass, cause we have a deal with them; everyone else, $5 per vehicle. Except for you, Best Buy, you pay $25 - except Saturday and Sunday, when you may not pass at all."

... Best Buy pays more than anyone else? Hm, this is starting to sound good.
Well, I do see signs on side streets all the time that say "no trucks over 3 tons". And I've seen parking signs that had incomprehensible terms.

I agree with your position, but I think your analogy is tortured.

I also see police on the roads, that prevent random lunatics from driving while tripping balls and ramming into my ass at 150 km/h during my morning commute. I think that's also a function of government.

Secondly, if you think the "no trucks over 3 tons" signs impinge on your "liberty", then go ahead and drive a 25 ton truck down that road, see what happens. I'm having this discussion about "liberty" versus common sense with my 3rd grade son all the time.

I certainly never said "no trucks over 3 tons" impinges anyone's liberty. I was implying that "no trucks over 3 tons" is equivalent to saying "no one is allowed to consume more than X amount of bandwidth" on my public pipe, which is exactly how the network providers are going to couch their arguments when trying to strangle Netflix.
There is probably a good technical reason as to why there is a 3 ton limit, i.e. the road (or bridge this road crosses) can't support >3 tons and will probably collapse under the weight of a heavier vehicle. There are also good safety reasons such as not wanting 25ton 18 wheelers using the road past your local primary school as a rat run. That's where your analogy fails.
Well a long time ago I would have been all for public roads, but alas do you really trust the Federal government to dictate what does go down the pipe and who is allowed?
Do you trust the Federal government to dictate what goes down the road and who is allowed to drive?

I recommend blind trust in nobody, as a rule. But with the government, at least there's the option of voting against the current office holders. Whereas when a Comcast-TimeWarner super-juggernaut takes over the whole market, what are my options? My lawyers versus theirs? Yeah, that would end up "well".

With the government, at election time, you have the option to vote between one corrupt asshole or the other. With corporations, you can just choose to not buy from them (therefore starving them of money).
So, in the case we're discussing here (and directly applicable to my own situation BTW, but that's anecdotal), people will have the "choice" between, let's see... Comcast-TimeWarner and... Comcast-TimeWarner. Great choice, I'll take seven!

Or I could choose to not buy, therefore starving myself of the resources they provide. That's even better!

So you really, really have to have Internet/cable, and they must give it to you cheaply and at high quality? If you're not even considering the option of walking away from them, you're giving them enormous leverage over you.

EDIT: This is the behavior of "rational economic actors", IMHO. If the benefit you get from the expensive Internet they offer is bigger than the cost, it's rational to take it. If it isn't, then it's rational to pass on it. If enough people do this, then the corporation realizes they get more customers by lowering prices (if they also act as "rational actors").

Many people really, in a practical sense, do have to have the Internet, and at reasonably high quality. Work and school being two common cases.

The 'rational actor' model is to economics what spherical cows [1] are to dairy farms. It is a simplifying assumption that is useful for certain general cases, but if you ever find yourself depending upon it in an argument, you're working at too shallow a level.

In this case, though, even if the rational-actor model were valid, you'd be wrong. In the case of monopolies and oligopolies, the rational-actor approach is to, basically, let yourself be screwed by the monopolist.

For example, in my case I'm in an area where I pay more money for worse broadband (ADSL) because I hate monopolists like Comcast. From an economics perspective, I'm an irrational actor, because I'm not optimizing for my own interests.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cow

> Many people really, in a practical sense, do have to have the Internet, and at reasonably high quality. Work and school being two common cases.

Work and school are economic investments with concrete returns; financially, you get more out of Internet access than you pay. If you didn't need Internet for either of these, and just used it for Netflix or World of Warcraft (or any kind of recreation), would you reconsider paying for it?

Sorry, I'm not interested in jumping through your theoretical hoops. As a non-Comcast user who does need the internet, that doesn't seem like an interesting game to me.
Then do the constituents of your city, county, state, and country a service and either stand for election, volunteer time for a candidate that's not an asshole, or donate money to the campaign of a candidate that's not an asshole so they get on the ballot. Otherwise you get what you deserve.
What if a company built a private road and did the same thing? Would you still have a problem with it?
I've no problem with what people and companies do in their own backyards.
Keep in mind that in some cases the municipals are sued by the companies that can't be bothered to implement quality broadband for trying to implement quality broadband.

Makes me wonder if it'll have to get to the point that a municipality says fuck you to both the broadband provider suing them and the county/state courts that allow such nonsense to implement their broadband anyway.

municipal internet
Sure. But how many 'municipal' providers are there in places where a lot of the HN activity lies (i.e. SF/Silicon Valley) in say Mountain View, Palo Alto, Santa Clara, Redwood City, Menlo Park, San Mateo, Cupertino, Los Altos etc? It's a small patchwork all over the country.
When municipalities offer cable they roll out with a competitive package but often fall behind in technology over time because they are slow to upgrade and have no leverage with content providers. I imagine it would be the same for internet.
Why would they need leverage with content providers? I don't want content from my municipal, I want access to the content of my choosing. Let me deal with content providers on my own terms.
The latency on cellular internet makes it unusable for many applications like gaming.
I've played many games of Starcraft on a Verizon LTE connection. Many (most?) online games have 250ms of latency "built in" to even the playing field for users with ping times below 250ms. LTE latency is usually closer to 50ms
Twitch shooters, at least, definitely do _not_ have built in latency, and 250ms is unplayable.
250ms is probably ok for RTSs and turn based games, but would not work for anything fast paced.
I am confused how RTSes are not fast paced. I can't imagine any FPS has players do the same levels of Actions per minute [1] as some good RTS players.

[1] http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Actions_per_minute

It's pretty easy to do lag compensation on RTSs. You have the server run a copy of the game locally and just sync with the clients. Typically, RTSs have a lot of actions, but timing isn't as crucial. So, if things get out of sync, you just buffer until you everything catches back up again. You can even do things like vary the speed of the game (FPS) without the players noticing much. With games that rely on precise timing as a core mechanics (e.g. a shooter, fighting, or rhythm), the player is going to notice that an action took 10ms and then the next time they did it, it took 20, because they'll actually miss their target.
250 ms for SC2 is a huge handicap and is definitely not added to the game. I can't imagine marine splitting(or really playing BW at all) with that kind of penalty.

That being said, Targa is famous for playing for a while via a 4g connection in Australia. So playing the game well is certainly possible.

> They can do this, because Comcast owns the content (NBC)

You forgot Universal, which together still amounts to only a fraction of Netflix's content. There's a reason that Netflix doesn't carry many titles in their streaming service: it's already too costly to acquire the rights to stream them all. If Comcast were to raise the price on that content, Comcast could simply stop streaming those movies/shows. Given the size of their library at this point, I doubt any of this would be missed. The "content" you mention is no longer as critical to Netflix's business strategy as it used to be, especially as they move to more original content.

Netflix's original content only amounts to a fraction of the content available on Netflix. They do and will continue to be dependent on licensing this content.
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Show me how Comcast and Time Warner Compete? They have 100% non-overlapping service areas.

If anything, I'd expect prices to stay the same, because they have far greater leverage over the other media companies.

>the AnitTrust people would have to be really asleep at the wheel for that

Call me a pessimist but I think this will go through. Why? The lobbyists already sounded out (lobbied/paid-off/promised-job-in-future) enough people in govt to feel that this will go through, or at least there is enough chance of it happening.

I bet this will go through, especially using the point that they don't compete against each other (which would be stupid reason to accept by AntiTrust people). They were NOT designed to compete against each other in the first place. They were given geographic divisions by regulators for that very reason.

> The lobbyists already sounded out (lobbied/paid-off/promised-job-in-future) enough people in govt to feel that this will go through, or at least there is enough chance of it happening.

I don't think that follows. AT&T / TMobile gave it a shot a couple years ago, and that was shot down.

In the end ATT ended up paying hundreds of millions of dollars as a fine to TMobile. I doubt Comcast would repeat the same mistake. This will largely go through with the ironic claim that they don't compete against each other, when they were NOT designed to compete in the first place.
Was that a fine? I thought it was a breakup fee common in merger contracts so that you can't have the other company show you all their internal details then you say "nah nevermind" and you walk away with their roadmap/customer numbers/etc.
I wouldn't say it won't happen, but I don't know how much of #1 impact there will be considering it's already not practical to pull competing cable operator to begin with. (Unlike, mobile carriers, for instance.)

Obviously, I'm just speaking out from my experience, but how common it is that certain region is served by multiple cable operators? (And that you get to choose from?)

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As someone who bailed cable/satellite a long time ago in favor of OTA broadcast, I'm personally less concerned about the impacts this will have on cable vs. the impacts this would have on cable broadband internet (though I definitely agree with concerns expressed over the impacts of cable).

For cable, we have Netflix, Amazon, etc. as a possible alternative. And I guess for broadband internet, we always have DSL to fall back to.

But Google Fiber can't get here soon enough.

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I was thinking that they were already in a deep coma...
Its time Google provide internet access to the US with their Balloons. I would rather use slow free (neutral) internet than ComcastWarner.
Get ready for even more outdated internet speeds, YouTube throttling, and underhanded deals for bandwidth.
Well now we wait for things to get worse!
Will this really matter in the long run? I mean don't most cable companies have a local monopoly anyway? I don't think there are many Comcast subscribers who can switch to TWC. I know there's still a diversity of offerings across the market that will change, but that seems a minor thing compared to the fact that most broadband users don't have a choice who they get their broadband from anyway.
The future isn't cable though, it's internet, and even the cable companies know this. In most places the best internet is still via cable. Having such a dominant monopoly would put them in prime position to gouge everyone in every direction.

Gouge downward by charging the consumers higher prices. Gouge upward by charging companies like netflix to have their content not be horrendously throttled over your pipes. With such a large customer base, it becomes much harder for folks to resist.

And, of course, with more customers they have more revenue, which better positions them for future acquisitions. Comcast already owns NBCUniversal, so they are already positioned to become an even larger media conglomerate.

It matters to me as a TWC customer. Luckily I have a choice between TWC and AT&T internet currently.

I don't want to do business with one of the worst American companies, too bad both my choices are just that.

People get up in arms about them being monopolies and their solution is to grant them monopolies. It's stupid.

How about this? No monopolies at all. If I want to run cable and I get the easements, I should be able to...

Suppose there weren't any official monopoly grant from way-back-whenever to your existing local telco and cable companies. There would still be a de-facto monopoly or duopoly: The easement permitting process, currently entirely blocked due to the monopoly grants, would exist, but as a sham... with the (mono|duo)polies coercing city politicians not to let upstarts dig up roads or string new cables. I've lived in a city with lots of fiber being put in. It's a nuisance, and without vocal public support it's easy for entrenched ISPs to argue that the nuisance isn't worth the increased choice, particularly in markets where there is already "competition" between one [horrible] "cable" provider and one [horrible] "telco" provider.
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As others have mentioned, it's not clear that this would increase the market concentration in any way that matters, because it's not clear that Comcast and Time Warner meaningfully compete with each other. How many households can choose between one or the other?

Is there another way in which they will materially reduce consumer choice and gain new pricing powers? (Some people have said Net Neutrality and putting the pressure on Netflix, which is Interesting; it's not clear the extent to which third parties like this are covered by said Act.)

> Some people have said Net Neutrality and putting the pressure on Netflix, which is Interesting; it's not clear the extent to which third parties like this are covered by said Act.

Why wouldn't it be? There is a market for residential internet service, but if Comcast wants to charge Netflix et al for bandwidth then there is also a market for that "service" where Netflix et al are the customers, and the merger would have quite a strong effect on competition and market power in that market.

Non WSJ Paywall article

http://www.businessinsider.com/comcast-to-buy-time-warner-ca...

This is crazy I don't see how this can get past any sort of anti-trust. Particularly with Comcast's stake in NBC. Comcast would own both the content and distribution of too large a chunk of the broadcast industry.

To go with non-WSJ paywall article: non-paywall WSJ article!

https://www.google.com/search?q=http://online.wsj.com/news/a...

It would be insane to let this go through. They're both effectively monopolists in most markets they serve; allowing them to combine just allows them to exert more political influence to make sure they keep their monopoly and high profit margins. Their core business is very much a low-value-added, rent-seeking concern, which doesn't benefit from economies of scale except for in as much as they can increase their market power by reducing competition - a fundamentally zero-sum game.

Political influence is a major and underexplored negative externality of monopolies.

Building the expensive infrastructure that Silicon Valley depends on to get its cat videos and advertisements to users is a low value add, rent seeking concern that doesn't benefit from economies of scale? Its exactly the opposite.
Does economy of scale start to level out above, say, 11 million customers?
There's no practical reason why there needs to be say more than one team of cable network architects in the whole country. If an architecture works okay in Philadelphia, it should port pretty easily to Chicago. The stuff that needs boots on the ground, laying cable, doing installations, and servicing them, is already outsourced to local companies.
Probably not in 'lobbying power'.
The most valuable infrastructure that Comcast and Time Warner run is ye olde copper coax lines in the "last mile", often built a long time ago and at a large public subsidy (either explicit or implicit via a grant of monopoly). What little infrastructure investment they do make (eg, laying fiber) is a result of actual competition, which would be lessened by the merger.

By way of analogy, having clean water is important, but water infrastructure is not high-value-added ("buy Water Premium Max Plus! only 79.99/month!"); it's a basic utility. The alternative to Comcast isn't "no internet", it's a public utility wire-owner. Which would provide roughly the same level of service that Comcast actually provides, in the vast majority of areas.

And exploiting a monopoly on infrastructure is almost the Platonic ideal of rent-seeking.

Cable companies spend $17 billion a year on CapEx, and telecom services, excluding wireless, spend another $46 billion more. http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~adamodar/New_Home_Page/datafile/.... That's a lot of money for companies that are just resting on the publicly subsidized networks they built in the 1980s... Snark aside, most of the modern hybrid fiber-coax network that cable companies actually use today were built after deregulation in the 1990's. And it continues to be upgraded, which is where that massive CapEx comes in.
Utility (general), which I believe ~ electric co's, spends $31 billion. Absolute numbers don't tell you anything; maintaining even a completely static infrastructure costs something.
You said "what little infrastructure investment they do make" which is directly contradicted by the enormous infrastructure investments they make. Also, electric companies are in the middle of a huge push to replace aging coal plants with gas and renewables. There is a ton of value being added in that sector right now.
Net Cap Ex / Sales = 0.05% ?

I was going to ask what revenue they were bringing in with that CapEx. Am I right in thinking this means they're bringin in $34,000 million from sales and spending only $17 million on infrastructure. That doesn't look like "a lot of money" in relative terms - I must be misreading those figures?

I'm not sure what that column means, but the capex column is in thousands. So $17 billion.
I'm not going to look around for balance sheets of these cable companies but they are doing FINE, even after building the expensive infra. Why? Because they charge BUCKS for it.
Man, Comcast and TWC were already go to examples of the problems of monopolies.
How could this not be considered a monopoly over the majority of the US?
timewarner by its own is a monopoly. i dont think anything will change. I already pay 55 bucks for crappy 15 up 1 down speed.
Do you mean 15 down 1 up?
I can't believe no one has yet even trolled the possibility that allowing this merger would be payoff for both companies' loyal service to the NSA.
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The point is not to merge. The point is to use this as a negotiating point with the FTC. Ask for the sun, and end up with the moon.
So you get one part in 10 million (by mass)? Seems an expensive approach...
I would welcome this merger. Give them 3 months, and let them demonstrate why the telecom monopoly is bad for business, consumers, and America.
And then what?

You think Standard Oil is going to be repeated?

Not a chance. The Republican Party/side of the country would probably be more likely to rebel at the idea of such “government interference in the private sector”, especially on such a grand scale.

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who submits wsj articles no one can read...
Is this a PR move? Do they like paying lawyers? Leverage against the FTC? I mean, this is never going to happen.... right?
I can't wait until we finally get around to relegating broadband providers as common carriers.

At the very least, we need a broadband version of Glass-Steagall, which forces ISPs, cable companies, and content providers to be separate entities.

The current situation is laughably awful for consumers. I can't imagine a single informed customer actually supporting the status quo.

Among other things it would kill Google Fiber.
That is fine in the short and long term if it means splitting the content distribution from the broadband access providers.
In theory I still don't like the idea of a content provider owning infrastructure.
Not going to happen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Cable_%26_Telecommunic...

Just wait till Aereo gets screwed in their Supreme Court case. Then we really will be.

In fact no matter which way they rule in Aereo's case we are screwed. If they rule in favor of Aereo the content companies (Comcast owns NBC) will just start taking content "cable only".

I think the grandparent is saying we need a new law to replace the current one.

The courts having upheld a decision on what the current law says doesn't really preclude the passing of a new law - the only time court decisions trump legislation is when the Constitution comes into play.

Fantastic. Just imagine what we could with all the prime spectrum they'd be releasing.
Surely that would trigger a Sherman prosecution.
Unless I'm misreading this decision it merely upholds the FCC's right to classify ISPs as "information services" instead of "telecommunication services" because the Telecommunications Act is a bit fuzzy and leaves a lot up to the FCC. The FCC could decide to reclassify them as telecommunications services due to industry changes and I believe that this case would serve as precedent for them to legally do so.
Classic peak of the market bozo move. Comcast is massively overpaying for a dying business that will be valued at 1/3 this price in three to five years. I'd mark this equivalent to the HP / Compaq deal, and the AOL / Time Warner deal (in which Time Warner allowed a soon-to-implode dial-up player to eat them).

TWC has a mere $1b in cash, and negative $22.8b in net tangible assets. Comcast shareholders just bought a massive black hole.

With this announcement we as a community REALLY need to get behind Net Neutrality as much as we did w/ SOPA -- Companies like Google, Netflix, et al - should block all access to their sites from D.C. IP addresses as a protest to show them what 'Throttling' feels like.
THIS!!! I hope this happens!!
Netflix and other services can throttle their subscribers, too. :D
Less competition, higher prices and worse service for those who will be unlucky enough to be in the area where there is no choice but to use these cable ISPs...