The calculation the Economist Intelligence Unit uses is very different from the one presented in this blog post. For instance, the price of a car is not factored into the blog post as the author assumes a "student lifestyle."
For instance, in Singapore, a new Toyota Camry costs almost US$150,000 while the same car in Seattle costs at most $30,000. The difference is worth the downpayment to an apartment in Seattle. A public transport pass in Singapore (EZLink Season Pass) is $134, which is more expensive than Seattle anyway.
Among other things the government wants to discourage the use of private cars: Singapore is too crowded a city for everyone to have a car, you reduce noise and pollution levels, the petroleum dependence of the country...
To emphasize the point : In Singapore, the MRT (subway) and bus systems are excellent & frequent (and you can get exact ETA info via your phone). Taxis are everywhere and cheap. There's even less reason to own a car in Singapore than in NYC.
I understand that wealthy people may be conspicuously buying Mercedes and Lamborghinis : But that doesn't change the facts about the MRT, busses and Taxis...
Agreed, it doesn't boost the morale of the general population to see, but it also really doesn't make living in Singapore significantly worse (particularly since the absolute numbers are pretty small, even if it's a popular/populist talking point).
That's not a typo. It really is that expensive because of taxes. That does not include the cost of running the car; fuel, road tax, road pricing, maintenance, insurance and so forth. And you get to use the car only for up to 10 years. If you wish to renew the license for another 10 years then you've got to pony up another 70K (at current prices) and lose the scrap value of the vehicle.
The vast majority of the cost is for the delightfully named Certificate of Entitlement, essentially a 10-year right to drive your car in Singapore, whose value is determined by auction -- and it's actually around $20k less than it was last year at its historic high.
I've read this article a half dozen times, there is no mention of Singapore in it, let alone how much it costs to live there. So I guess I'm supposed to just take this made up headline at its word?
Also keep in mind, the author wants to SAVE $120K a year
Yeah that is madness (10k per month), especially considering that this is saving on top of housing costs. Ie. usually people save in the form of a mortgage (at least the largest "savings" are for housing).
I must be overlooking something. He mentions several times this is to "maintain your current savings rate". Is $9,400 per month a normal savings rate in Singapore? Perticulary for a student?? Everyone a millionaire in 10 years?
Secondly, just want to correct a few points for anyone who indeed is looking to move to Washington (and you should, it's lovely here and we'd love to have you).
Redmond is not the most expensive place to live, in fact, as long as you move a small distance away from any MS campus, it is a good value.
We have the Puget Sound and a few large lakes in the greater Seattle area. As a general rule, prices increase rapidly as distance to water decreases (most expensive: Bellevue, Kirkland, Downtown Seattle). If you like urban living, try west Seattle, for suburban, Issaquah.
West Seattle isn't that cheap given that it's surrounded by water. I love it though, but commutes to ms would be hard. Lake City and surrounding in the north is going to cheaper, or even kenmore/Bothell (or Lynwood for the desperate). As for south, Renton has some affordable places...
The article itself NEVER mentions Singapore, so I don't know why the HN headline does. I also realize that the author wants to maintain a savings of almost 120K a year. But consider that the average Seattle Comp Sci salary is only 92K...
Interesting analysis, but just to set expectations there is no way you will be taken seriously if you ask for $199k/year as a fresh from college new hire at a large software company in Seattle. $200k+/year in Seattle is well into very senior/principle/partner engineer territory.
Very detailed work but you shouldn't be using cost as your primary basis. It's more important to look at average salaries for your position and see how it varies by city & state. That will give you an accurate depiction of how the industry views relative cost of living.
is that in Singapore Dollars? (comes to USD160K) still waay too much money for a fresher.
You also want to save 9k per month? hmm... looks like you have put in a lot of time on analysis/charts, so when you surveyed for rental prices - didnt you bother asking your friends if it these figures were even realistic?
Realistically, because the lists of the world's "most expensive cities" usually only include cities with populations over a million, with exceptions for capitals and smaller international jetset/business/gov't towns like Geneva or SF.
most expensive city? not sure
too expensive to live? definitely
you ever heard of certificate of ownership? it's a cert that requires you to own a car. a mazda biante here cost around $150k SGD, not sure about other countries though.
furthermore, there's a lot of taxes we need to pay and we don't even know where these tax goes to! it doesn't really even help the poor as far as i can see. Furthermore, ministers' salaries are in millions per annum and there are so many ministers and you defiinitely need to pull strings to get that job
still have a lot of more to complain, but then i'm too tired to keep typing so much
> it's a cert that requires you to own a car. a mazda biante here cost around $150k SGD, not sure about other countries though.
The price of car ownership is no doubt extremely costly in Singapore. But that is to offset the cost of public transport, reduce traffic and of course generate revenue. I lost count of how many BMWs I have seen parked in HDB parking lots though :)
> furthermore, there's a lot of taxes we need to pay and we don't even know where these tax goes to!
However in my opinion this is something I do not agree with, taxes in Singapore are extremely low. The highest tax rate is 20% at that is on $320,000 and above, 7% GST ( which is applicable for businesses above $1m income). Then there are annual GST rebates, spouse rebates etc.
You've got to be kidding if you're complaining about taxes in Singapore... OTOH, there's a lot of complaining going on in Singapore : It's a national sport (more akin to the UK, IHMO, than the US).
The car ownership stuff is a conscious decision on the part of the government to avoid problems that plague so many cities.
FWIW, I lived in NYC for over a decade, moving to Singapore last September (2013). NYC is definitely more expensive.
To answer the question in the title, you should look at the purpose of the study. The study naming Singapore as the most expensive city come from the Economist Intelligence Unit's Worldwide Cost of Living Index, which is supposed to "help human resources and finance managers calculate cost-of-living allowances and build compensation packages for expatriates and business travellers" and is "based on the assumption that an expatriate has a right to live at the assignment site in the same manner and with the same kind of goods and services he would find at home" (source: https://www.eiu.com/public/topical_report.aspx?campaignid=Wc..., http://www.worldwidecostofliving.com/asp/wcol_HelpWhatIsWCOL...).
In other words, it's comparing the price of living a Western executive lifestyle, not the cost of living for a regular person. Transport costs are high because Singapore has very high taxes on cars (more expensive than the cost of the car itself) - the target audience isn't going to be using a bus pass. Food costs are based on prices at high-end Western restaurants, not $5 worth of groceries. The housing comparison definitely isn't based on a studio apartment. And so on and so forth.
1 bedroom Apartments start at ~1400 a month. You can of course go cheaper if you rent a larger house with room mates (which in fact many people do). Food prices are outrageous, expect to pay at least $10 per person per meal if you go out to eat, $15 is more common.
But this page also doesn't mention any of the quality of life benefits of living in Redmond.
For one thing, crime is almost non-existent. Police vehicles regularly patrol the area 24/7. There is no noise, no one partying outside, no cars driving around blasting music, none of that.
And the city is maintained in an almost pristine state. The roads are damn near perfect. Pot holes are fixed within a week, if not days. City services are all around amazing, heck even the police are polite and a delight to deal with.
The commute to work is excellent. From out my door to into the work parking lot is about 5 minutes.
Direct access to Seattle, 15 minutes to downtown Seattle during non-rush hours.
And finally, the math in this Article is so bonkers, it seems like it'd apply to almost any major city. Rent in a "won't be stabbed" part of Seattle is higher than it is in Redmond. Rent in NYC or SF for a comparable quality of life is going to be much higher! (Can you even rent a place in SF proper that in in a neighborhood with virtually no crime?)
Perhaps my main complaint about living here is the scarcity of restaurants that deliver!
How is $15 per meal outrages? Never been to Swiss or Denmark or London before? The problem with Redmond is it's quite suburban and boring. Better to live with the chance of getting stabbed, but Seattle is quite safe for something a bit more grimy.
Redmond is too small to compare statistically to Singapore. The author took a homogeneously nice town with 54K residents and compared to a city-state with 100 times more people. Take a moderate to very nice section of Singapore with 54K people and let's see the numbers again.
I moved to Redmond recently from Toronto, which was a pretty expensive city. My living expenses went up a little, but my quality of life went up dramatically. I live in a modest house, but it's mine. The cost of a mortgage was less than the cost of renting a smaller place. I own a car, which means skiing or hiking every weekend.
The weird thing about Redmond (and Bellevue) is the "everyone is above average" feeling. The expectation is that everyone has a stable, well paying job. It's a bit of a Stepford Wives kind of town. What if you are working in something that doesn't start you at 80K with benefits? Then your options in town dwindle very, very quickly.
I find it funny how people calculate ridiculously low rent prices and an impossible $5/meal (isn't even unhealthy fast food slightly higher than that?), yet magically come to the conclusion that at least $200,000 are necessary.
Actually $5/meal is on the high side, you can eat healthily for significantly less than that. You just have to drop the bad expectation of eating elaborately cooked meals all the time. A cheese sandwich for example costs perhaps a few tens of cents at most.
Well, bear in mind his goal, realistic or otherwise, is to save $10,000 a month after all expenses. That contributes a huge deal to his $200K demand. But sorry, walk into MSFT out of college and ask for $200K as a developer your first year and you're not going to get it, despite what someone upstream claims (source: myself, an ex-MSFT Group Program Manager - a few levels above. This is fairly accurate: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Microsoft-Group-Program-Mana...)
Totally agreed. It's also a bit odd to want to save 10,000 a month after tax on a normal salary in general. The ratio between living expenses and savings is somewhat off.
I can also come up with wonderful ideas like 'oh I want to be able to earn enough to save 200,000,000 a month and only spend 2000/month - so I need to earn at least 4 Billion Dollars a year. Good'
$5 a meal is perfectly reasonable. I budget for myself $10 a meal, but eat out all the time. When I cook at home, the cost is about half that. Even less if I wanted to eat Ramen noodles.
It's not reasonable when you're making 200,000/year. I am not saying the guy should go out and eat caviar dinners or something. But living on Ramen and stuff 3 times a day on a 200K salary is a lifestyle choice I doubt many people would do longterm.
Not sure how much more expensive Redmond is compared to Seattle, but Numbeo [1] would also be a good start when comparing locations. (Numbeo has no numbers for Redmond.)
Lodging and housing is indeed very expensive, I was living in a shared apartment in a university dorm and I had to pay like 1K € per month. Certainly very expensive, although not that far from what I've seen in other expensive places like some parts of Sweden or the UK.
On the other hand, food is ridiculously cheap. You can go to hawker stalls and eat a fine meal for less than 3 €. In most European countries you can't have a decent meal for less than 8 €. Damn, here in Spain I don't think I can even match the price of Singaporean hawker stalls if I buy groceries and cook myself, unless if I only eat fried eggs or pasta with tomato, and in Singapore I was eating like a king.
Transportation is outrageously expensive if you need a car, but it's rather cheap if you use public transport, which has a great coverage and is really good. I don't really see much of a reason to use a car in Singapore, except if you are a car-aholic. Even if you need to go somewhere out of reach of the subway and bus network, taxis are cheap too.
To sum up, I would say that the relatively cheap food and transportation compensate for the very expensive accomodation, and the overall result is that Singapore is rather expensive, but there definitely are more expensive places (at the very least in the north of Europe). I'm surprised that people are saying it's the most expensive city.
The average Singaporean is working an extra 15-20 hours each week than the average European in an expensive city for about the same amount of money and a similar cost of living. That 15-20 hours makes a huge impact on overall quality of life
A a "Singaporean" founder I would ask:
Does Redmond have:
Gardens by the Bay, Clarke Quay, Sentosa, Universal Studios, Casinos, Top Universities, huge Asian Financing Hub, vibrant and multi-cultural environment, safety, affordable health-care all within a 45 km radius?
Redmond allows me to write about whatever I want, whenever I want. It also allows me to chew gum. And, as of this year, I can partake in marijuana use, something that in Singapore would earn me the death penalty.
In a word "yes", in many words, not quite. Seattle has casions, top universities, a vibrant multi-cultural environment. Even affordable health care. While we don't have "gardens by the bay" we have plenty of parks in the city, mountains within a 30 minute drive and plenty of other recreational activities. And no we don't have some other business and locations specific to Singapore. But we do have our own businesses and locations that are specific to the Pacific Northwest.
On a completely unrelated note, I've felt for some time that students of english should be taught to say "how come" instead of "why"; it doesn't trigger the auxiliary inversion that "why" requires. Go ahead and note that it's informal, but it would do a lot of good.
“How come” is antiquated. I understand what you’re saying and actually agree. I think a better way to do so would be “How is it”, as in “How is it that you think you will be able to ask for $200K as a graduate programmer in a very IT heavy city?"
Damn, how does anyone live in these places? What supports this? Quantitative Easing? ;)
Isn't minimum wage in Washington under $8 / hour? What do they eat?
Philippines...
Rent: You can get a decent house or apartment for $150 / month.
Food: I can eat a street meal here for around 50 cents. For something fancy, I can eat out for $1.50. McDonald's is an expensive meal at $3.50 for 1/4 Pounder w/ cheese meal. A nice restaurant might charge $6. To get more expensive than that you have to eat at a European owned place which imports food I have never heard of with names I can't pronounce.
Electric: ~ $35 / month.
Water: ~ $15 / month.
Internet: ~ $25 / month.
I have lived here long enough that I have become completely out of touch with the prices in places like the U.S. and Europe. Singapore is right in my backyard though.
56 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 121 ms ] threadFor instance, in Singapore, a new Toyota Camry costs almost US$150,000 while the same car in Seattle costs at most $30,000. The difference is worth the downpayment to an apartment in Seattle. A public transport pass in Singapore (EZLink Season Pass) is $134, which is more expensive than Seattle anyway.
Wait, what? Surely that's a typo! If not, what makes it so expensive?
Agreed, it doesn't boost the morale of the general population to see, but it also really doesn't make living in Singapore significantly worse (particularly since the absolute numbers are pretty small, even if it's a popular/populist talking point).
Toyota Camry 2.0 (A) $173,988
Toyota Camry 2.5 (A) $182,988
http://www.sgcarmart.com/new_cars/newcars_overview.php?CarCo...
(in Singapore dollars, US$1 ~= S$1.2)
The vast majority of the cost is for the delightfully named Certificate of Entitlement, essentially a 10-year right to drive your car in Singapore, whose value is determined by auction -- and it's actually around $20k less than it was last year at its historic high.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Entitlement http://www.oneshift.com/new_cars/lcoe.php
Also keep in mind, the author wants to SAVE $120K a year
Secondly, just want to correct a few points for anyone who indeed is looking to move to Washington (and you should, it's lovely here and we'd love to have you).
Redmond is not the most expensive place to live, in fact, as long as you move a small distance away from any MS campus, it is a good value.
We have the Puget Sound and a few large lakes in the greater Seattle area. As a general rule, prices increase rapidly as distance to water decreases (most expensive: Bellevue, Kirkland, Downtown Seattle). If you like urban living, try west Seattle, for suburban, Issaquah.
Lastly, $5 a meal will get you nowhere. Period.
Post-economic-crash, equity packages have added quite a lot to salary.
$200k total money comp (incl 402k, bonus, equity) is well in range for a career/intermediate software engineer.
However your other expenses are near the mark for a 'student' lifestyle, but a little on the low side...
Congrats to you if you currently save at that rate.
most expensive city? not sure too expensive to live? definitely
you ever heard of certificate of ownership? it's a cert that requires you to own a car. a mazda biante here cost around $150k SGD, not sure about other countries though.
furthermore, there's a lot of taxes we need to pay and we don't even know where these tax goes to! it doesn't really even help the poor as far as i can see. Furthermore, ministers' salaries are in millions per annum and there are so many ministers and you defiinitely need to pull strings to get that job
still have a lot of more to complain, but then i'm too tired to keep typing so much
My parents are from Singapore, and I've been back enough that I at least got some of those jokes...haha.
Very cool.
The price of car ownership is no doubt extremely costly in Singapore. But that is to offset the cost of public transport, reduce traffic and of course generate revenue. I lost count of how many BMWs I have seen parked in HDB parking lots though :)
> furthermore, there's a lot of taxes we need to pay and we don't even know where these tax goes to!
However in my opinion this is something I do not agree with, taxes in Singapore are extremely low. The highest tax rate is 20% at that is on $320,000 and above, 7% GST ( which is applicable for businesses above $1m income). Then there are annual GST rebates, spouse rebates etc.
The car ownership stuff is a conscious decision on the part of the government to avoid problems that plague so many cities.
FWIW, I lived in NYC for over a decade, moving to Singapore last September (2013). NYC is definitely more expensive.
In other words, it's comparing the price of living a Western executive lifestyle, not the cost of living for a regular person. Transport costs are high because Singapore has very high taxes on cars (more expensive than the cost of the car itself) - the target audience isn't going to be using a bus pass. Food costs are based on prices at high-end Western restaurants, not $5 worth of groceries. The housing comparison definitely isn't based on a studio apartment. And so on and so forth.
1 bedroom Apartments start at ~1400 a month. You can of course go cheaper if you rent a larger house with room mates (which in fact many people do). Food prices are outrageous, expect to pay at least $10 per person per meal if you go out to eat, $15 is more common.
But this page also doesn't mention any of the quality of life benefits of living in Redmond.
For one thing, crime is almost non-existent. Police vehicles regularly patrol the area 24/7. There is no noise, no one partying outside, no cars driving around blasting music, none of that.
And the city is maintained in an almost pristine state. The roads are damn near perfect. Pot holes are fixed within a week, if not days. City services are all around amazing, heck even the police are polite and a delight to deal with.
The commute to work is excellent. From out my door to into the work parking lot is about 5 minutes.
Direct access to Seattle, 15 minutes to downtown Seattle during non-rush hours.
And finally, the math in this Article is so bonkers, it seems like it'd apply to almost any major city. Rent in a "won't be stabbed" part of Seattle is higher than it is in Redmond. Rent in NYC or SF for a comparable quality of life is going to be much higher! (Can you even rent a place in SF proper that in in a neighborhood with virtually no crime?)
Perhaps my main complaint about living here is the scarcity of restaurants that deliver!
I moved to Redmond recently from Toronto, which was a pretty expensive city. My living expenses went up a little, but my quality of life went up dramatically. I live in a modest house, but it's mine. The cost of a mortgage was less than the cost of renting a smaller place. I own a car, which means skiing or hiking every weekend.
The weird thing about Redmond (and Bellevue) is the "everyone is above average" feeling. The expectation is that everyone has a stable, well paying job. It's a bit of a Stepford Wives kind of town. What if you are working in something that doesn't start you at 80K with benefits? Then your options in town dwindle very, very quickly.
[1] http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...
Lodging and housing is indeed very expensive, I was living in a shared apartment in a university dorm and I had to pay like 1K € per month. Certainly very expensive, although not that far from what I've seen in other expensive places like some parts of Sweden or the UK.
On the other hand, food is ridiculously cheap. You can go to hawker stalls and eat a fine meal for less than 3 €. In most European countries you can't have a decent meal for less than 8 €. Damn, here in Spain I don't think I can even match the price of Singaporean hawker stalls if I buy groceries and cook myself, unless if I only eat fried eggs or pasta with tomato, and in Singapore I was eating like a king.
Transportation is outrageously expensive if you need a car, but it's rather cheap if you use public transport, which has a great coverage and is really good. I don't really see much of a reason to use a car in Singapore, except if you are a car-aholic. Even if you need to go somewhere out of reach of the subway and bus network, taxis are cheap too.
To sum up, I would say that the relatively cheap food and transportation compensate for the very expensive accomodation, and the overall result is that Singapore is rather expensive, but there definitely are more expensive places (at the very least in the north of Europe). I'm surprised that people are saying it's the most expensive city.
The average Singaporean is working an extra 15-20 hours each week than the average European in an expensive city for about the same amount of money and a similar cost of living. That 15-20 hours makes a huge impact on overall quality of life
Even an Asian financing hub -Uwajimaya
And I live in a cheaper city than Redmond.
I hear it all over the place, but it's also less correct than how is... but you're right, definitely more common.
Isn't minimum wage in Washington under $8 / hour? What do they eat?
Philippines...
Rent: You can get a decent house or apartment for $150 / month.
Food: I can eat a street meal here for around 50 cents. For something fancy, I can eat out for $1.50. McDonald's is an expensive meal at $3.50 for 1/4 Pounder w/ cheese meal. A nice restaurant might charge $6. To get more expensive than that you have to eat at a European owned place which imports food I have never heard of with names I can't pronounce.
Electric: ~ $35 / month.
Water: ~ $15 / month.
Internet: ~ $25 / month.
I have lived here long enough that I have become completely out of touch with the prices in places like the U.S. and Europe. Singapore is right in my backyard though.