They don't know what kind of money they'll be able to use if they do vote for independence. It's perhaps more than reasonable to suggest Scotland's future is uncertain.
Also, take the "Scottish" out of "Scottish Nationalism" and you're left with "Nationalism". There's no way I'm moving to a country that thinks "Nationalism" is a good thing.
Scottish Nationalism is usually described as "civic nationalism":
"Civic nationalism is a kind of nationalism identified by political philosophers who believe in a non-xenophobic form of nationalism compatible with values of freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights."
As jeffbr states, look at the policies of the SNP before unfairly categorising them. Scotland just voted in equal marriage for same-sex couples with the First Minister of Scotland, and leader of the SNP, strongly in favour. It really isn't a prejudiced or authoritarian nationalist party and has a record to back that up.
I don't agree. I think the Scottish Nationlist's are racist towards the English, and they're happy to incite hatred in the electorate by raising the spectre of the Evil English raping and pillaging it's way through Scotland.
They asked for a referendum to be held on the anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn. To what end?
Perhaps Jingoism is a better term than Nationalism.
Oh come on, Scottish Nationalism ≠ Nazi-ism/EDL-ism
Scotland's "Nationalism" is about gaining independence and actually becoming a nation, not about violent and misguided idealism.
In fact, Alex Salmond (leader of the Scottish National Party, the majority party in Scottish Parliament) has come out for more liberal immigration policies, to encourage positive economic immigration[0]. Compared to the UK government's increasingly tough stance on immigration[1], and the rise of right-wing parties such as UKIP and the BNP, I'd much rather live in a small, liberal nation like Scotland.
Exactly, Scotland (and most other parts of the UK) won't ever get as much attention in Westminster as the South-East of England, and our parliamentary representatives are that much further away from us.
You could say that your vote's power is inversely-proportional to the size of the democracy, but if you look at how the complexity of communication scales, then surely smaller democracies are able to function much more effectively than larger ones (cf. small vs. large [software] teams).
I'm voting yes because, although I plan to travel after I get my degree from Edinburgh, independence would give me more (and potentially better) options for living in the EU in future.
It's not a huge deal. First, the referendum seems strongly probable to fail, though not by a huge margin. Second, it's unlikely that independence would have any dramatic effect on many people's software jobs in Scotland, certainly in the short term. The most likely problem would be exchange-rate issues.
If you're English, be prepared for some weird attitudes (you're sometimes treated as "an enemy" just because you're English). It's nothing terrible (certainly not as bad as racism towards racial minorities (I'm searching for the correct way of saying this, not having lived in the UK for many years, but I guess that's better than "people of colour")), but it gets tedious after a while.
[English; lived in Scotland for 3 or 4 years]
[Edit: Interesting reading the comments. Maybe things have changed (though I would have thought the debate over devolution - which seems like a good idea to me - would have exacerbated feelings). This was ~15 years ago and many Scots explained it to me as resentment over Thatcher, poll tax etc (in fact, one reason we went to Scotland was in search of a more left-wing environment). It wasn't good natured ribbing and it was pretty widely acknowledged as being "a thing" (had many conversations with Scottish friends about it - one memorably said that it was considered normal in middle class conversation over dinner to trash the English in a way no one would dream of doing to any "racial" goup). And I could certainly understand the motivation (the "historical context"), even if it was occasionally unpleasant.
It also got considerably worse when I moved from academia to "real" work.
It wasn't trivial (any once incident, sure, but the steady drip over time...), it certainly wasn't isolated pockets, and it's something I would take into consideration in future. In short: I was glad to leave.]
"Brothers and sisters are natural enemies. Like Englishmen and Scots! Or Welshmen and Scots! Or Japanese and Scots! Or Scots and other Scots! Damn Scots! They ruined Scotland!"
Can't say I ever found it particularly bad, just mild poking fun - my Scottish friend at uni in England with me had it a lot worse. Kind of like being Canadian in America, I suppose.
I can imagine it's tedious because it's just so trite. How about we do away with trivial affairs like the location of one's birthplace, and instead work on using technology to make the world a better place?
Hmm. I must say I'm amazed you could generalise in that fashion - I can't speak for your personal experience, but we certainly don't treat English people as 'the enemy', and to claim that that is a consideration for an English person choosing to work in Scotland is rather laughable.
I'm a Scot, and lived in London for a few years. I had the exact same experience in reverse - if you're not from England and decide to live in the South East of England, prepare to get slagged. I now live in Glasgow, the city which has such a bad and undeserving reputation, and despite my posh-scottish accent, I've not had one issue with anyone I've worked with.
From a business opportunity perspective, I can say quite confidently that the Scottish startup scene is growing very nicely, and there are a lot of really cool companies coming out of Edinburgh in particular.
A classic example is Boswell's first encounter with Johnson in 1763:
"Mr. Davies mentioned my name, and respectfully introduced me to him. I was much agitated; and recollecting his prejudice against the Scotch, of which I had heard much, I said to Davies, 'Don't tell where I come from.'--'From Scotland,' cried Davies roguishly. 'Mr. Johnson, (said I) I do indeed come from Scotland, but I cannot help it.' I am willing to flatter myself that I meant this as light pleasantry to sooth and conciliate him, and not as an humiliating abasement at the expence of my country. But however that might be, this speech was somewhat unlucky; for with that quickness of wit for which he was so remarkable, he [...] retorted, 'That, Sir, I find, is what a very great many of your countrymen cannot help.'"
Had Boswell been more thin-skinned or less stubborn, we might have had no Life of Johnson, and so no Johnson either.
I had an interesting experience working in Scotland for a few months. Went to the local pub regularly since their wasn't much else to do (borders). People weren't very friendly at all, especially in the pub. I figured they didn't like outsiders.
Watched a six nations game on the tele in the pub one Saturday and I was heard cheering loudly and somewhat drunkenly for the Welsh rugby tram.
Barman said to me 'so ure not English then?'.
I replied 'no, Welsh'.
From that day on until the end of my stay I was treated like a completely different person.
I imagine this doesn't always happen, but in some places your place of birth does matter in the UK.
To be fair, we Welsh aren't exactly that friendly to the English either, but we have the following viewpoint:
We don't hate the English. We just pity them for not being Welsh. :-)
I think it's a lot better than that. This Londoner moved to Glasgow about 8 years ago and lived there for 2 years, and rarely even had anyone comment on my Englishness. The only amusing thing was that I was forcibly introduced to every English person that anyone knew, perhaps they thought we'd have some kind of magical bond!
I think it also depends where in England you're from. I've always gotten on well with Scottish people but I'm from the North anyway, so maybe there's a bit of a shared pain at what happened with Thatcher.
I've been living in Glasgow for 18 months now and never had a problem. Everyone has been phenomenally friendly, which was a surprise, having grown up in Norfolk where standoffishness is the norm.
I grew up in small town Scotland with an English accent and can report that in pockets of Scotland there is certainly blatant, out and out racism.
But in the cities and as an adult, I really don't see it as an issue anymore. I work for one of the companies sponsoring the event and I see probably about as many foreign employees (English and other European and world nationalities) as there are Scots.
I think most countries will always have some pockets of racism because some people will always be ignorant. So I'm not absolving my country entirely, nor saying the anti-English sentiment no longer exists, but I don't see it as the big problem it used to be.
It really depends on the circles in which you move. There are parts of Scotland where Scots are practically a minority (St Andrews) and where the accent is pretty much posh English (central Edinburgh).
I've lived in Scotland for 9 years now and have a southern English accent. I spent 4.5 years as a volunteer police officer and only once ever received any racial problems. Ironically from a very posh, and drunk, German.
The company I work for makes a huge thing of recruiting mid 30s professionals from London. If you're starting a family then moving to Edinburgh is a very easy sell, especially if you've benefited from the London property boom.
As an Englishman (from the south-east to boot) who married a Glaswegian I can relate to this. I was held personally responsible for most of the ills befalling Scotland and my protestations that I had been on poll tax demos etc fell on deaf ears.
But that attitude did change and I put it down to the creation of the Scottish parliament. From about 2000 it started to become the focus of the most of the real political arguments, or at least that's how it seemed to me, and the anti-English thing became much less specific. More of a "we don't like the English except for the ones we've met" kind of thing.
As an aside, it's also the reason why I believe that the Scottish parliament may have killed the chance of independence. It seems to have taken some of the sting out of the, very real, ruled from London mentality. At least for issues that actually affected people day to day.
Scottish guy here, running my biz from Edinburgh (Local guys, get in touch and say hello). If i was a prospective job applicant, in Scotland, why do i have to go to a London meetup to work for companies in Scotland?
Replied to a node above (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7415728), but you can usually find out who's hiring by just turning up to the monthly Tech Meetup[0] - it's pretty active here in Edinburgh.
If you're in Scotland, you already know it exists and would automatically be looking locally. I see the London meetup as "poaching" people to come to Scotland.
I'm moving to work in Scotland myself very soon. I've got a weird range of reactions from people here in the south of England; people are sort of suprised to learn that Scotland has electricity let alone a tech industry.
The most effective recruiting strategy would be to ask people what they're currently paying to live in London and how tiny a flat it is, then show them the corresponding 3 bedroom house / Georgian townhouse they could get for the same money.
Some interesting looking companies there. Might be merit in running a more local session, e.g. for folks in Scotland's own main cities that might not be aware of their options?
I speak as someone working in Glasgow who's heard of only a few of those sponsors.
You'll find a lot of the tech scene (in Edinburgh at least) go to Tech Meetup[0] every 2nd Wednesday of the month, and you'll soon hear who's hiring in the introduction go-around.
Hell, it's a rare occasion when neither Skyscanner or Amazon aren't hiring more developers.
I think Skyscanner and Amazon are always hiring new developers. If they don't say it, they probably just forget to plug it for a moment. Just go and ask them anyway. Also http://www.tmvse.com/Recruitment/
That website is appalling. I think the attendees logos could easily be links to their sites.
I'd like to know who's actually organising it. The only contact information is for someone who works for Edinburgh city council?
My 2p worth is that Scotland (Glasgow at least) is a nice place to live. The weather isn't too bad and not having London's relentless rent's and property market hanging over your head is a nice change.
The weather isn't too bad in Glasgow?! I'll agree it's rarely actively lethal, but come on...! :-)
Seriously though, Scotland has a lot to offer in terms of reasonable property prices, shorter commutes (vs London), quieter roads (main Edinburgh/Glasgow route, the M8, aside) and the developer job market is buoyant.
Cue the "strange yellow object seen in sky" headlines tomorrow :-)
Edinburgh seems to be doing really well for startups this past few years, beyond the retail banks and life/pensions players, which is great to see. Glasgow has some big financials that seem to disproportionately dominate the job market - not a bad thing, lots of interesting and (in places) deep technical work to be had, but obviously it's not to everyone's taste culturally.
The best way to deal with the weather is to take up a sport that is best with lots of rain. To be fair I can only think of whitewater kayaking but it is probably the best sport ever.
shameless plug (I run a SaaS job board platform - www.JobBoard.io), but you should consider adding a job board to this. We've got several "meetup" type communities that are making some decent income by simply adding a job board to their website...
Both Edinburgh and Glasgow (the only cities I've worked in) have very diverse populations - European, American, Asian, Indian, Australian. As a "local", no first hand experience of applying but I'd infer it's pretty common, sure.
In terms of the technology sector, Scotland and especially Edinburgh is an exciting place to work. Edinburgh does have the traditional banking industry, but also great companies such as Amazon and Skyscanner, with a collegiate/academic environment. There are also many career and techie opportunities within the many start ups.
I found it's a city with good worklife balance. I have made the most of the techie meet ups and I have really enjoyed my time here with the Hip bars and restaurants and affordable accomodation! I have not had an issue with being English in this cosmopolitan city.
61 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 161 ms ] threadAlso, take the "Scottish" out of "Scottish Nationalism" and you're left with "Nationalism". There's no way I'm moving to a country that thinks "Nationalism" is a good thing.
"Civic nationalism is a kind of nationalism identified by political philosophers who believe in a non-xenophobic form of nationalism compatible with values of freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_nationalism
It is notable that UKIP, which really does have the xenophobic kind of nationalism, has almost no support in Scotland.
No one in the history of the world has ever conceded that their version of a bad thing is the same as another version of the bad thing.
They asked for a referendum to be held on the anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn. To what end?
Perhaps Jingoism is a better term than Nationalism.
Scotland's "Nationalism" is about gaining independence and actually becoming a nation, not about violent and misguided idealism.
In fact, Alex Salmond (leader of the Scottish National Party, the majority party in Scottish Parliament) has come out for more liberal immigration policies, to encourage positive economic immigration[0]. Compared to the UK government's increasingly tough stance on immigration[1], and the rise of right-wing parties such as UKIP and the BNP, I'd much rather live in a small, liberal nation like Scotland.
[0]: http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-i... [1]: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence...
One arse in charge of 6 million is 10x more democratic than one arse in charge of 60 million.
You could say that your vote's power is inversely-proportional to the size of the democracy, but if you look at how the complexity of communication scales, then surely smaller democracies are able to function much more effectively than larger ones (cf. small vs. large [software] teams).
I'm voting yes because, although I plan to travel after I get my degree from Edinburgh, independence would give me more (and potentially better) options for living in the EU in future.
To quantify: Betfair's current probability is ~17.5% of a "Yes" vote, although that's not based on enormous volumes: http://uk.sportsiteexweb.betfair.com/betting/LoadRunnerInfoC...
[English; lived in Scotland for 3 or 4 years]
[Edit: Interesting reading the comments. Maybe things have changed (though I would have thought the debate over devolution - which seems like a good idea to me - would have exacerbated feelings). This was ~15 years ago and many Scots explained it to me as resentment over Thatcher, poll tax etc (in fact, one reason we went to Scotland was in search of a more left-wing environment). It wasn't good natured ribbing and it was pretty widely acknowledged as being "a thing" (had many conversations with Scottish friends about it - one memorably said that it was considered normal in middle class conversation over dinner to trash the English in a way no one would dream of doing to any "racial" goup). And I could certainly understand the motivation (the "historical context"), even if it was occasionally unpleasant.
It also got considerably worse when I moved from academia to "real" work.
It wasn't trivial (any once incident, sure, but the steady drip over time...), it certainly wasn't isolated pockets, and it's something I would take into consideration in future. In short: I was glad to leave.]
"Brothers and sisters are natural enemies. Like Englishmen and Scots! Or Welshmen and Scots! Or Japanese and Scots! Or Scots and other Scots! Damn Scots! They ruined Scotland!"
From a business opportunity perspective, I can say quite confidently that the Scottish startup scene is growing very nicely, and there are a lot of really cool companies coming out of Edinburgh in particular.
"Mr. Davies mentioned my name, and respectfully introduced me to him. I was much agitated; and recollecting his prejudice against the Scotch, of which I had heard much, I said to Davies, 'Don't tell where I come from.'--'From Scotland,' cried Davies roguishly. 'Mr. Johnson, (said I) I do indeed come from Scotland, but I cannot help it.' I am willing to flatter myself that I meant this as light pleasantry to sooth and conciliate him, and not as an humiliating abasement at the expence of my country. But however that might be, this speech was somewhat unlucky; for with that quickness of wit for which he was so remarkable, he [...] retorted, 'That, Sir, I find, is what a very great many of your countrymen cannot help.'"
Had Boswell been more thin-skinned or less stubborn, we might have had no Life of Johnson, and so no Johnson either.
Watched a six nations game on the tele in the pub one Saturday and I was heard cheering loudly and somewhat drunkenly for the Welsh rugby tram.
Barman said to me 'so ure not English then?'.
I replied 'no, Welsh'.
From that day on until the end of my stay I was treated like a completely different person.
I imagine this doesn't always happen, but in some places your place of birth does matter in the UK.
To be fair, we Welsh aren't exactly that friendly to the English either, but we have the following viewpoint:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8733373.stm
"Yer fae England, ye'll ken Jim Smith aye?"
[Going by the downvotes, clearly not a comment for a humble teuchter to be making! Even worse, someone living in Edinburgh!]
But in the cities and as an adult, I really don't see it as an issue anymore. I work for one of the companies sponsoring the event and I see probably about as many foreign employees (English and other European and world nationalities) as there are Scots.
I think most countries will always have some pockets of racism because some people will always be ignorant. So I'm not absolving my country entirely, nor saying the anti-English sentiment no longer exists, but I don't see it as the big problem it used to be.
I've lived in Scotland for 9 years now and have a southern English accent. I spent 4.5 years as a volunteer police officer and only once ever received any racial problems. Ironically from a very posh, and drunk, German.
The company I work for makes a huge thing of recruiting mid 30s professionals from London. If you're starting a family then moving to Edinburgh is a very easy sell, especially if you've benefited from the London property boom.
But that attitude did change and I put it down to the creation of the Scottish parliament. From about 2000 it started to become the focus of the most of the real political arguments, or at least that's how it seemed to me, and the anti-English thing became much less specific. More of a "we don't like the English except for the ones we've met" kind of thing.
As an aside, it's also the reason why I believe that the Scottish parliament may have killed the chance of independence. It seems to have taken some of the sting out of the, very real, ruled from London mentality. At least for issues that actually affected people day to day.
[0]: http://techmeetup.co.uk/
I'm moving to work in Scotland myself very soon. I've got a weird range of reactions from people here in the south of England; people are sort of suprised to learn that Scotland has electricity let alone a tech industry.
The most effective recruiting strategy would be to ask people what they're currently paying to live in London and how tiny a flat it is, then show them the corresponding 3 bedroom house / Georgian townhouse they could get for the same money.
I speak as someone working in Glasgow who's heard of only a few of those sponsors.
Hell, it's a rare occasion when neither Skyscanner or Amazon aren't hiring more developers.
[0]: http://techmeetup.co.uk/
(Disclaimer: Toshiba kindly sponsor my site http://opentechcalendar.co.uk/ :-)
I'd like to know who's actually organising it. The only contact information is for someone who works for Edinburgh city council?
My 2p worth is that Scotland (Glasgow at least) is a nice place to live. The weather isn't too bad and not having London's relentless rent's and property market hanging over your head is a nice change.
Seriously though, Scotland has a lot to offer in terms of reasonable property prices, shorter commutes (vs London), quieter roads (main Edinburgh/Glasgow route, the M8, aside) and the developer job market is buoyant.
Also it seems to me most of the jobs coming up in Scotland are in Edinburgh rather than Glasgow but that might just be me
Edinburgh seems to be doing really well for startups this past few years, beyond the retail banks and life/pensions players, which is great to see. Glasgow has some big financials that seem to disproportionately dominate the job market - not a bad thing, lots of interesting and (in places) deep technical work to be had, but obviously it's not to everyone's taste culturally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJY2LXsDGe0
I found it's a city with good worklife balance. I have made the most of the techie meet ups and I have really enjoyed my time here with the Hip bars and restaurants and affordable accomodation! I have not had an issue with being English in this cosmopolitan city.