In microsoft's defense, they've given plenty of time to prepare for this. It's time to move on. If operators can't afford to upgrade their machines, it might be time to replace them with better operators.
While I believe Microsoft is more than justified in retiring XP, I don't think that's fair either.
Many people regard their computer as an appliance. To be told that you need to spend several hundred dollars to buy a new computer (or less to buy a new OS and find someone to upgrade you) is hard to swallow. From their perspective, it's working perfectly fine - why should they throw away $400? Does that mean they'll have to do it all over again in a few years? My grandfather was especially perturbed by that idea. I suppose I would be similarly perturbed if someone told me I needed to upgrade or replace my dishwasher even though (as far as I could tell) it was working perfectly fine.
(Just to be clear, that's not how I think of it - I am running 8.1 on my old Vista for a reason.)
Civil engineering seems like a decent analogy for this. People make buildings. There's a chance they could be around for hundreds of years, but the original engineering firm does not have to provide maintenance.
If MS isn't going to issue patches, there ought to be some way for someone else to be contracted to. Buildings are essentially open source so that is easy to do. Software isn't necessarily.
And much of the time you tear down a building that is no longer useful or meets your standards. Even though some people may like the building, the building owner can do as they want with it.
Just because they're not supporting it doesn't mean you don't own it. As you said, the CE that designed it doesn't need to maintain it, and your license for the design of the building limits your ability to modify the building.
My point was that most buildings aren't kept around forever either, as you were implying.
That is a bad analogy. Unlike software, building take time, people and material resources to build and cost magnitudes more, yet windows can be installed/upgraded in an hour.
Microsoft already issued a patch( not that they didn't support XP a long time over its lifespan ), it is called Windows 7, Apple does this as well, with their yearly OS releases, even though in a more clever way.
It's like letting a bridge fail, after advertising that you're going to let it fail for years, and putting up lots of bright neon signs, and orange cones, and barrels, and flashing lights... and people still go out of their way to drive over the bridge because they don't want to learn how to drive over the newer bridge that's just down the road.
Microsoft's support of old crap is already at a heroic level. They've already gone above and beyond what anyone should reasonably expect. If people persist in using old junk well after it's obviously a bad idea, that's their own problem.
I agree 100% that's why businesses shouldnt be buying bridges from people that tell their customers there is an expiration date on the infrastructure,that's basically a scam.
A bridge should be maintainable and upgradable forever,just like Linux. Windows obviously was a poor choice to begin with !!!
Bridges regularly get torn down and replaced. Nothing lasts forever, and thus nothing is built to last forever. You want to know one sure way to spot a scam? The person selling you on something tells you that it will last forever.
Ubuntu provides five years of support for their LTS releases. The oldest OS that Ubuntu support is from 2010. Red Hat just EOLed an OS from 2003. Debian provides support for previous releases for "about a year or so". While Windows XP was released in 2002, over 12 years ago and Windows XP Embedded will be supported until 2016. So it looks like if you want the longest period of support, your best bet is Windows not Linux.
Their support of "old crap" (which they built) is not heroic...it's their business model. There is no altruism at MS. Enterprises adopt MS software in large part because it has widespread support and because MS maintains it for years. You don't go with Mac because Apple kicks you to the curb after a few years.
Why not? People can do what they want with their computers. If someone likes XP, they are familiar with it runs on their hardware and their software is working etc., who are you to tell them what to do.
The sad thing is they aren't getting security updates. If it was open-sourced, then people could keep their systems secure.
How would security updates magically appear if XP were open sourced? And do you really think that people that use XP would somehow got to them? Maybe 1 out of 100 users of XP would care and seek how to patch that OS. Hence no one cares about making updates for that OS. For example my Fedora 16 and most installed software on it is open sourced and I don't receive any security updates. Why there are not groups of people making security patches for it?
edit: If you are suggesting that users would go back to XP once it's opensourced then you don't have much faith in people.
> Maybe 1 out of 100 users of XP would care and seek how to patch that OS.
That's a good number of people, I think. I would love to see them empowered to maintain their computers however they want.
Security updates don't magically happen. But with open source, people who want to do them can put in the effort. That's the point. You could maybe sustain a business of being paid to maintain security updates for this magical open-source-XP. Or maybe some enthusiasts would choose to do it. Maybe they wouldn't. But we'll never know, because opens-source-XP will not exist.
I don't see how this would solve the problem at all. Microsoft already "fixed" XP, it's called Vista/Win7/Win8. The issue are existing people with older hardware that are locked into this old OS for one reason or another. Surely you don't think that MS can't fix XP do you?
It's not that MS can't fix XP. It's that they don't want to. They don't want to spend money supporting ancient software that no one pays them for anymore.
The global percentages are not that scary in my opinion. From what I've seen it's under 20% overall, and much better (~14%) for certain groups of users. Of course my source is biased (as is is netmarketshare.com), but it's big enough to be believable.
I recently upgraded my parents from XP to Windows 7, and it wasn't a very pleasant transition. Mostly, miscellaneous peripherals don't work anymore, because the companies never released Win7 drivers. So I can see why some people are holding back.
They're older peripherals of course, but perfectly serviceable still, except for the lack of drivers. For the scanner I did actually find a third-party driver package (http://www.hamrick.com/) that'll make it work for $40. But for $40 you can just buy a new scanner and junk the old one, as wasteful as that sounds. It'd be nice if Microsoft would just buy this guy out and include his drivers as Win7 standard.
Some scientists I know have bigger upgrade problems, because equipment more specialized than scanners isn't always so easy to replace, and there is a bunch of miscellaneous lab equipment that connects to an XP computer for basic data-logging and control. On the plus side, you can at least isolate those computers from the internet.
Aside: I purchased the professional edition of VueScan (http://www.hamrick.com/) about as long ago as Windows XP came out, and it is still supported for upgrades. Better than bundled software, works on multiple platforms with every scanner I throw at it. One of my best software purchases ever.
A <$100 purchase does not buy an active staff of highly paid developers for multiple decades -- that some people feel otherwise is what's mind-boggling to me. Nothing else I've ever purchased came with a 13 year warranty in the first place. When you talk about never buying a Microsoft product again if they don't service your purchase indefinitely, I really doubt you're applying that same standard to any other company. There's nobody at any company pushing out new versions of firmware for 13 year old wifi routers, new drivers for 13 year old mice, 13 year old printers, 13 year old game consoles...
That's a very good point. As unhappy as I am with Microsoft's practices, they're doing an excellent job when it comes to backward compatibility and supporting legacy versions. You can't reasonably expect them to produce patches for Windows XP for 20 years.
Well that's ridiculous that Microsoft should be expected to continue patching a 13 year old OS. When I bought a laptop in 2009, it was running Vista and I think most/all computers being sold were running Vista for some time by then. That was five years ago. Regardless, after that long, you can expect to have to upgrade.
You can complain about how perfectly working electronics are made obsolete, but the world moves on and I think it moved on at a reasonable pace.
Should have not bought an obsolete product. Assuming you wanted to use that laptop for ~4 years, did you really want to lock in with a laptop running an outdated OS with so many security holes?
If you wanted XP for your job, might as well have gotten a Windows 7 machine (or Vista if 7 wasn't exactly out then, since your timeline places you near the release date) and ran XP on VirtualBox.
Hey, nice! I have the first gen Chromebook and I think it was a great purchase. The only thing I don't like is that it stutters on YouTube/flash videos occasionally, but I think gen 2 might not have any problems with that. You can also look into the Acer C720 if you haven't already, as that one has an x86 processor (useful if you need a Linux distro with gcc) and is significantly cheaper.
I've been waiting for a Chromebook with good build quality, nice screen and decent internals (that doesn't cost $1300!), and it looks like the 13" Chromebook 2 will have all of those. The timing will also be perfect, considering XPs EOL.
An interesting point is I can imagine that the actual power savings from upgrading those machines are non-trivial at this point. Most of the machines that wouldn't be able to run anything past XP are probably Pentium 4's--which are going to use 2-5x the power at idle of anything vaguely modern.
Can you not move your machine's software installations to a VM, and continue to use those old apps on there?
We had a client who wouldn't upgrade because they had several key programs that would only run on IE6, one of which included their accounting software.
I can only imagine how many hackers are licking their chops right now. I'm pretty sure some groups have been working on exploits for a while now, getting ready for the coming gold rush.
It's probably time to upgrade clients like that to Windows 7 Professional, and have them run their old apps in XP mode. That's the free Windows XP VM that came with Windows 7.
It's not solving the problem, though, as you then still have an XP machine that cannot be patched anymore. It's just virtual and only runs when the old application runs, but that doesn't necessarily help.
Windows Vista has higher system requirements than Windows 7 or 8. If it has Vista drivers, it probably has 7/8 drivers too, they're largely the same. Windows 8 only requires 1GHz and 1GB RAM. Rumor is that Windows 8.2 may drop that to 512MB of RAM to widen the potential hardware base for low-end tablet makers.
Depends on how you value your time. If you have time to spare, buy crappy old PCs with Vista license keys on Ebay, "harvest" the license keys, install a nice shiny Ubuntu and re-sell them as Computer (No Windows) on Ebay again.
Might even be that you'll get a better price for a computer without windows than for one with vista.
Why is it there's an expectation for MS to support XP for so long, yet people have so little problem with Apple's OS policies? Entire PowerPC architecture abandoned between versions? My last mac was a great little 10 inch ultra-portable, which no more than 6 months after purchase was made obsolete by the Intel macs release. A release upon which, they not only stopped supporting the old OS, they stopped giving people any upgrade path at all for their equipment. Most machines that run XP can be made to run windows 7, albeit without all the bells and whistles. Those that aren't, are likely old enough that they'll probably need replacing soon enough anyway.
Because there are different kinds of "just works".
There are those people that want to have a seamlessly integrated UI that just works, so they use Apple.
There are those people that want their toolchain to just work, so they use Linux/BSD.
And finally, there are those that want their computer to just work until it breaks and they have to buy a new one. Those people are "still on Windows".
I've been warning everyone I can about this. Matter of fact my stylist has an second computer with XP in a bad upgrade loop so it doesn't boot. Wired ethernet, just used for browsing. I'll be putting LXLE on it, should handle everything she does on this box.
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[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 135 ms ] threadMany people regard their computer as an appliance. To be told that you need to spend several hundred dollars to buy a new computer (or less to buy a new OS and find someone to upgrade you) is hard to swallow. From their perspective, it's working perfectly fine - why should they throw away $400? Does that mean they'll have to do it all over again in a few years? My grandfather was especially perturbed by that idea. I suppose I would be similarly perturbed if someone told me I needed to upgrade or replace my dishwasher even though (as far as I could tell) it was working perfectly fine.
(Just to be clear, that's not how I think of it - I am running 8.1 on my old Vista for a reason.)
If MS isn't going to issue patches, there ought to be some way for someone else to be contracted to. Buildings are essentially open source so that is easy to do. Software isn't necessarily.
My point was that most buildings aren't kept around forever either, as you were implying.
How?
Microsoft already issued a patch( not that they didn't support XP a long time over its lifespan ), it is called Windows 7, Apple does this as well, with their yearly OS releases, even though in a more clever way.
Microsoft's support of old crap is already at a heroic level. They've already gone above and beyond what anyone should reasonably expect. If people persist in using old junk well after it's obviously a bad idea, that's their own problem.
A bridge should be maintainable and upgradable forever,just like Linux. Windows obviously was a poor choice to begin with !!!
must of been hosted from windows xp.
The sad thing is they aren't getting security updates. If it was open-sourced, then people could keep their systems secure.
edit: If you are suggesting that users would go back to XP once it's opensourced then you don't have much faith in people.
That's a good number of people, I think. I would love to see them empowered to maintain their computers however they want.
Security updates don't magically happen. But with open source, people who want to do them can put in the effort. That's the point. You could maybe sustain a business of being paid to maintain security updates for this magical open-source-XP. Or maybe some enthusiasts would choose to do it. Maybe they wouldn't. But we'll never know, because opens-source-XP will not exist.
Luckily, it would seem that the major non-IE browsers support it (almost) everywhere.
They're older peripherals of course, but perfectly serviceable still, except for the lack of drivers. For the scanner I did actually find a third-party driver package (http://www.hamrick.com/) that'll make it work for $40. But for $40 you can just buy a new scanner and junk the old one, as wasteful as that sounds. It'd be nice if Microsoft would just buy this guy out and include his drivers as Win7 standard.
Some scientists I know have bigger upgrade problems, because equipment more specialized than scanners isn't always so easy to replace, and there is a bunch of miscellaneous lab equipment that connects to an XP computer for basic data-logging and control. On the plus side, you can at least isolate those computers from the internet.
As you say, getting a new multi-functions printer/scanner was under 10€ price difference to a third party driver. Which then did as well.
This is one area where open source drivers shine, but as software developer I do understand the need of said companies to push for new models.
That mess will cost billions to businesses still running on XP...
It's been too much of a risk for several years now. If security is truly a deep concern of your, you wouldn't still be running XP.
Ubuntu's LTS support is just three years. Apple's OS X support varies (I think it's current plus past two?) but is < 5 years.
So who are you going with?
Today, many consumers are buying iPads and Macs. Once they are gone, they aren't coming back.
You can complain about how perfectly working electronics are made obsolete, but the world moves on and I think it moved on at a reasonable pace.
If you wanted XP for your job, might as well have gotten a Windows 7 machine (or Vista if 7 wasn't exactly out then, since your timeline places you near the release date) and ran XP on VirtualBox.
Can you not move your machine's software installations to a VM, and continue to use those old apps on there?
I can only imagine how many hackers are licking their chops right now. I'm pretty sure some groups have been working on exploits for a while now, getting ready for the coming gold rush.
The big risk is remote exploitation[most of the time].
I've got several clients with various systems and software that probably won't run with 7 or 8.
I was under the impression that they had the same kernel and other things that made them very similar.
Might even be that you'll get a better price for a computer without windows than for one with vista.
There are those people that want to have a seamlessly integrated UI that just works, so they use Apple.
There are those people that want their toolchain to just work, so they use Linux/BSD.
And finally, there are those that want their computer to just work until it breaks and they have to buy a new one. Those people are "still on Windows".