Ask HN: Is it me or ...?
I am a developer and I have worked at a few startups which I have subsequently quit.
Everytime I get hired by a company, I am 100% motivated and committed. I specifically choose companies whose business I find appealing. I am not an executant who can simply code anything for anyone. I like to work for projects I support. I care more about the project than about the salary and benefits. I suppose that's the case for most of us.
However, it seems after a year or two in the company, the honeymoon period ends and the only thing I can see is the bullshit coming out of management's mouth. Bogus business plans, inability to close deals, short-sighted decisions, petty management techniques, overly frequent pivots, you name it...
Am I 1/ Bad at choosing my jobs, 2/ Too demanding towards the companies that hire me, 3/ Mentally unstable, 4/ Unrealistic, 5/ Just a normal bullshit intolerant guy ?
Is there any way I can find a boss I respect beyond a couple of years?
Tell me about your experiences. Thank you.
260 comments
[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 265 ms ] threadIn 14 years I learned to:
- low my expectancies
- do my job always at 100%, but not 110% (save rare occasions)
- live a life outside work (mine, btw, is a life of wife, side-projects, and mmorpg)
I have a very active life outside. I just wish I could subscribe to a project for longer than a couple of years.
With over a decade of experience in my field, I can certainly relate but cannot offer any advice.
I'm currently reading the book below to understand more about this (it's a bit too verbose but it's a decent book I recommend).
http://www.amazon.com/Drive-Surprising-Truth-About-Motivates...
Most start-up work is 'hauling shit uphill' (horribly paraphrasing a quote about acting that Sean Connery said in his acceptance for some lifetime award).
I'm always amused when my Service is up and everything else is down. Then again, vice versa happens and I wonder what the fuck I was smoking when I wrote the part that failed...but hey, when you can only blame yourself it is amazing how much more fun you have at work. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome
Publicizing this kind of thing is usually bad, especially when you have had the same experience several times. If your account is publicly identifiable as you I'd delete this post
I get bored easily and don't mind relocating.
Over here, businessmen give you the "you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs" speech after they screw you. This was their real goal from day 1, it's just they have to sort of believe their lies to make you believe in them. Same old trick from con men and salesmen.
Never take promises from a businessman, always get it on paper. And even so, you might not get it (e.g. bankruptcy protection). The only exception is if you have done business with them for over a decade and they depend on you and their reputation.
My dad has worked at the same company since he dropped out of college around 40 years ago (he runs it now). I do think our generation's (well, I'm 32, don't know about you) job goals are a lot different and a lot more conducive to short-term jobs, and I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that. I tend to place maximum value on doing real work and self improvement, and lots of meetings and doing the same work for years aren't the best way to achieve these (fundamentally unachievable) goals.
But even more than that, I think a major problem is that startups are companies that are by definition changing ceaselessly. They're either growing or belt tightening, adding new people who need to be managed even if the team is still functional. The emphasis goes from core product building to scaling and optimizing. Etc.
So, it might be sort of you, but it may also just be the nature of the work. Don't take it too hard.
I have a friend who's... hard to work with? He changes jobs a ton. But his strategy has evolved from 'join a team then get frustrated' to 'join a project, know what you're going to work on, add a ton of value, then maybe find another project at the same company, or not.' It's kind of mercenary but can be really valuable to both parties if you play it right, and keeps him from feeing miserable.
I am probably too easy to work with. I take care of loose ends, make it easy for people to achieve their goal, polish sharp corners for everything to run smoothly, treat everyone respectfully, etc... Everyone ends up thinking everything is natural and are surprised when I suddenly quit.
When a company has to face the reality of staying afloat, or when the pressure is on, management ideals and goals can quickly go out the window.
I'd be curious to know what happened to the companies that parent quit.
Chances are a year or two ago things were much simpler... There's a fair chance that was because a year or two ago the team was ignoring or just not-expecting the challenges you have today. Startups often mortgage their future this way... Year one is lots of work, but in my career it's never been the hardest part. Not by a long shot.
I think there's a lot of value in being the person who's valuable year three when folks are tired and struggling to find traction and maintain culture than it is to be valuable year one. Being valuable year one is easy, frankly.
I may indeed have been to long to show my concern. You are correct. However, in my mental process, I have tried many times to show empathy towards management, placing myself in their shoes and trying to realise the anxiety that they must be feeling. Yet, I can't make myself to accept choices I do not respect. I may be a pretentious prick but I just have a way of seeing things. Indeed I wouldn't be talking this way if I didn't have the luxury of changing job whenever I wanted and I do realise my luck here.
I've been in your shoes.
I confronted the GM (my boss) because I completely disagreed with how things were being done/decided. I feel it was mostly do to a lack of communication and not seeing/knowing some due diligence was being performed by him. I can't respect and blindly follow decisions if I don't feel/believe that the risks have been honestly and truly considered. Show me you thought about the risks and the trade offs and it's easier for me to go along.
EDIT: He gained a lot of respect from me when/since he didn't can me for confronting him.
You're being unrealistic. Try lowering your expectations of other people and if you can't find complete fulfillment in your job, just search for it in something else. A job is just a job at the end of the day, you're primarily doing it for money. Not everyone is lucky to both have money and the ideal job at the same time.
It really isn't worth filling your mind with negativity about aspects that aren't fully under your control, which usually is the case when you're working for other people.
Just do your best, let the higher-ups worry about the rest, continue growing professionally through your side-projects and take good care of your health. It may sound silly, but going to the gym for instance, eating healthier, having a regular sleeping schedule can do a lot to lower your anxiety and in turn make your less than ideal job(s) easier to bare.
You are probably correct but I find it a sad take on professional life. I hope I can prove you wrong :-)
The only sane option seems to be: be the boss yourself. Take a leading role somewhere where you can influence the running of the business, better yet start it yourself.
I also found a dangerous situation that comes from commiserating with coworkers. Basically, you can be perfectly happy, chugging along doing your job and one or more of your coworkers is not happy. So you start talking and they start telling you all the things they think are wrong with the company. Next thing you know you are also getting upset with the management, etc. despite them treating you the same as before. You take on your coworkers' misery and adopt their attitude. This has happened to me in the past, sometimes justified, sometimes not. In either case, try to get some perspective on your own situation not just equate it to theirs.
Lastly, is there anything wrong with doing some moving around every once in a while? I don't think so. Or try your hand at freelancing and instead of dealing with a frustrating manager, deal with a whole lot of frustrating customers at once :).
I have tried freelance already and I didn't really like it. I would rather work in a team for a single company/project.
You are correct about talking to others. Yet, even if I have been fairly well treated, I do not want to work in a company where only so-called "high-value" employees such as developers are well treated. I do not support underpaid internship or crappy business developers deal. I know it's probably not my business caring about these things but I have a certain work ethic.
Currently, I am subcontracting and really like who I work with and how things have been going. I am mostly insulated from dealing directly with angry clients, etc. and I work with more or less the same teams of developers/designers/QA/etc. The projects do change but for me that is fun.
Lastly, there are managers that you can respect long term. My first manager was a guy like that. He ruthlessly advocated for the user, and knew quality from crap. He'd push you to do better and to learn more, yet take great care of you from any outside issues (upper management, etc.) Sadly, the entire group within the larger organization got assimilated due to being a little too independent, and he left shortly after I did.
If you've got a few years of development experience in companies like that, I recommend you "find a boss [you] respect" by becoming your own boss. Start with consulting. These engagements are different than employment because often times they're not full-time and you can stagger a couple of contracts together at the same time. This is to your advantage because you now have two "bosses" (clients) instead of one. I know it sounds counterintuitive that more bosses are better, but if things aren't going as you'd like on one contract, you can move on to another contract as it becomes available without the sort of risk you incur when you're switching full-time employment at one company to another.
From there, you can further increase your independence by building a product that has many smaller customers. Again, many "bosses", but you need each one individually much less, so you're actually more in control of your circumstances.
If it doesn't work out, you can be reasonably confident you can just fall back into regular full-time employment. In this scenario, your definition of failure is most people's definition of success.
Sitting and reading while you count the dollars someone else is burning through can be rather therapeutic.
You could have said that before in other situations. Regardless of what your work situation is, you can always do this. I haven't but in retrospect realize I could have in more situations than I want to acknowledge. The downside to that is you end up having to live with someone else's decisions for far longer than they spent making the decision, which may often stink. But as an independent consultant you still have to do the same thing. The only primary difference I see is that you usually can see an end in sight when you won't have to deal with decision X, whether it's jumping to another client for the afternoon work, or getting a different contract 6 months from now.
Disengage, then say "let me know by XX:YY when you make a decision" and find something else to work on. Truly liberating.
So I sort of suffer from the same symptoms as the OP. Consulting has proven to be a good choice for me, as I do get some variety and dont get as bored as I did when I was a FTE somewhere...
I think having a niche specialized skill certainly helps, but you could probably find work at a "big 4" firm without it. Being either technical or functional AND personable helps. I am pretty easy going so I can get along with most, and have a pretty positive attitude most of the time. That said Im not overly extroverted, so that isnt a requirement. If you want to do it, work towards making it happen. Linked in(for better or worse) can be a good resource here. Join a professional group there, go to hh events, make connections. I dont think it is a tough field to break into.
Do you need to become a partner for an ERP software company? How successful will you be calling yourself a 'consultant'.
They may have also been approached by consulting companies that have more work to do than they can handle, and are looking for independent consultants to help with the load. The rates on those projects are usually a little less than your normal rate, but quite good for getting into the groove of things early on.
You can also reach out to local consulting companies yourself and make yourself available to them.
If you have the choice between a short-term client that wants you 40 hours a week and a long-term client that wants you 10 hours a week, take the long-term client. They'll reduce the risk of being in business for yourself, and you can take on other part-time contracts in addition. When you've got the benefit of a long term engagement, you can experiment with your pricing more with the remaining time. I end up giving a pretty significant discount to the companies I'm engaged with over the long term, as my rates on new projects are constantly going up.
Note that this is for medium-to-long-term contract jobs typically lasting 6-12 months.
Starting up a business is pretty simple from a paper work standpoint and doesn't have excessive overhead costs or paperwork requirements if you aren't doing any work through said company. Now you have a company ready to accept checks or payment when the work arrives.
Read this article and you'll thank me. http://www.hcamag.com/hr-news/people-leave-managers-not-comp...
The only way to really solve those problems and put yourself in a qualitatively different situation, is found your own startup where you'll truly be your own boss, or at least only have to answer to investors who care more about the big picture.
Great!
I suppose that's the case for most of us.
I don't suppose that. Others may say that, but they really prefer what's in it for them. You are in the minority. (That's a good thing.)
...the only thing I can see is the bullshit coming out of management's mouth...
That's the unmistakable signal from your inner self that it's time to move on.
Am I 1/ Bad at choosing my jobs
No. It's hard to choose the best jobs because, for the most part, they're already taken. Good bosses don't lose their people nearly as much so those jobs simply aren't as available.
2/ Too demanding towards the companies that hire me
No. Don't lower your standards.
3/ Mentally unstable
Maybe, but I can't tell from anything you've posted yere.
4/ Unrealistic
No. The day you lower your expectations to the mediocrity you've encountered is the day you've sold your soul and forfeited your real potential dreams.
5/ Just a normal bullshit intolerant guy
Probably.
Is there any way I can find a boss I respect beyond a couple of years?
Yes. You already have: yourself.
Tell me about your experiences.
35 years & 88 companies:
WorkingForSomeoneElse = WisdomAccumulation
DoingMyOwnThing = WisdomExpenditure // and much more fun!
I think that everyone needs a little of both. You've just had a little too much of the former and no enough of the latter. That's all.
Sometimes expectations are too high, other times, you're just seeing the truth as it is, but it can be difficult to see the whole picture until you've actually got the responsibility. Next tough decision is whether to try and change the place because you like the project and it's too important to fail, or skip out because life's too short.
No company is perfect, even if you're the sole owner & employee. "Inability to close deals" is extremely vague, so I don't want to jump to conclusions, but deals fall through all the time. It could be a sub-par sales team, it could be market conditions, it could be a million things, but that's just a part of business in general.
Short-sighted decisions are also tricky. What you call short-sighted might be necessary for a longer-term strategy. Long-term strategies are great, but sometimes $10 now is more important than $100 next week. If it's a code thing, sometimes you need to have a feature done immediately for contractual reasons, even if it's going to require more work down the road.
Petty management techniques are a pain in the ass, but if it takes you over a year to find them, there's not a ton you can do before looking at your next job to ensure that doesn't happen.
Overly frequent pivots also can be tricky. If you don't see profit/upswing anytime soon, you might be forced to pivot if you can't raise money on reasonable terms. Unless you're privy to board meetings and whatnot, it's hard to say.
There aren't many perfect jobs out there. Like other posters have said, you might be happiest if you can save enough to do your own thing for awhile. But keep in mind that in one way or another, you're probably going to have to deal with other businesses, even if you're running your own show. Deals will fall through, your business plan might not go according to script, you might be forced to make short-sighted decisions just to keep the lights on / keep a client / what-have-you.
One thing I might caution about is quitting too many jobs. I'm not in the valley, but here in Boston, a reputation can follow you. If you get a name for being a perpetual flight-risk, it can be hard to shake. Granted leaving after a year or two at each one probably isn't the worst, but as your career develops, it might make it more difficult if you want to become a leader within a company.
In California, people switch jobs at the drop of a hat, and a long chain of startup gigs of 1 or 2 years each is super common and even seen as great experience. Despite being California born and raised, I much prefer Boston's work ethic and loyalty.
Do your best, be proud of your work, but do it only for yourself, not for any company. At the end of the day, you're a number on a balance sheet.
It's certainly true of some companies; they'll drop you without thought, you're only a number, etc. etc.
But some companies are better than that. You're very lucky if you find one. This type of thing drives loyalty, it's not blind.
Honest, non-judgmental question: why?
I get the value of loyalty to people. That I can go on board with. I'll gladly work my ass off or suffer to support people or causes I believe in. However, companies deserve no such loyalty. A pile of other peoples' money that will gladly get rid of you on no notice, or make you answer to an idiot, for any reason or no reason at all, is not worth emotional attachment or loyalty. It's just a thing that you should use (to pay bills and advance your career) while there are common interests.
Working hard when it matters is important and a true test of someone's character, but an unconditional work ethic is not a virtue-- just pointless.
I have worked for a couple companies that are more than just mutual interest, and I feel very lucky for it. This highlights the value of establishing that true culture. So many companies completely misunderstand this type of culture.
I'll flip the question around with another non-judgmental question: how do you define "when it matters", and what would you rather be doing "when it doesn't matter"?
This. After jumping between five jobs (plus some consulting work) over seven or eight years, I've been with the same company for almost eight years now. It is hardly perfect. We screw up process, which in turn leads to buggy products. Product management often doesn't understand the technical limitations of our platforms. Sometimes the projects just plain suck. But the culture is really great, and keeps me there. We get ample PTO, and I can take up to four weeks at a time. I can work remotely when necessary. I have a flexible schedule (unless a client demand requires my presence).
I enjoy coding and building stuff, but I also enjoy the other things in my life. My employer's willingness to understand that covers over a multitude of little things that otherwise might make me leave.
Over time, I watched the passion and integrity of the founders/owners dissolve as they bought expensive real estate and had children.
Decisions that used to be about what would be the most "awesome", became about what would be the most $$$.
Quitting those jobs were two great decisions. After the first one, I was still surprised when it happened again at the second one. Now I'm not surprised anymore. This is just what happens.
Now I stay freelance. Everyone has to be happy all the time or you don't work together anymore. Until I'm in charge, and have the opportunity to sell out my own principles, that's how it's going to be!